(bright music) - Wyoming has its own division of travel and tourism, and the state director of that department is retiring after more than 20 years.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

This is "Wyoming Chronicle."

(bright music continues) Promoting travel and tourism is a full-time job in Wyoming.

And the person who leads that effort is more than simply good at the job.

Earlier this year, every state travel and tourism executive in the nation took a vote, and they named Wyoming's Diane Shober the best there is.

I want to begin with a somewhat amusing story.

I was traveling to visit my son who lived in Iowa at the time, drove out to see him on I-80 South, came back on I-90, drove up a little bit north, and I stopped at Mount Rushmore for lunch.

And there was a South Dakota travel guide that had the Tetons on it.

How does that grab you?

Does that bother you at all, or should it bother Wyoming?

- Well, first of all, thank you South Dakota for giving us some recognition.

I think those are probably the most recognizable skyline of beautiful mountains in the world.

- [Steve] The fact that it's 300 miles away in a different state doesn't really bother us?

- In all seriousness, there's many things that we share with our neighboring states, and because we're all here in the Mountain West, predominantly drive markets, meaning people are driving in and out, they visit these other states.

And so many times we do cooperative marketing endeavors together.

And then we are, I think, a little bit collegially competitive too when it comes down to actually, you know, where visitors are gonna spend their most dollars.

And so I'm sure that whoever did that probably now is regretting that oversight.

- Was that always true?

Thinking back to when you came onto your job, was there much cooperation among the Mountain states then?

- I think probably, Steve, there was more then, because we didn't have all the avenues of advertising and marketing and dissecting and segmenting visitation and visitor profiles.

You know, technology and data is everything for a marketer.

We had several, when I started, we did a a four-park series with Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming.

We did Sled the Rockies, a snowmobile cooperative with Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.

We've done a Black to Yellow cooperative with South Dakota and Wyoming.

And we still do some of these co-ops.

But domestically, for the most part, we're pretty much on our own doing our own marketing.

But internationally is where we really have to rely on each other, because international visitors will travel more than one state, certainly.

And when you visit a place as vast as the Mountain West, the likelihood that they're gonna only spend time in one location is pretty slim.

- Why does Wyoming need a separate division, a separate department and government for travel and tourism?

- Well, I mean, many things.

Think about this industry in its entirety.

Tourism is the largest private sector employer in the state of Wyoming.

These are jobs that are not easily outsourced.

This is a labor-intensive industry, and by far the largest private sector employer.

Also, the second leading contributor of sales and use tax to the state.

Sometimes third.

And this isn't about one industry over another, because I firmly believe that when all industries are thriving, Wyoming is at its best.

But tourism is also somewhat immune to the ebbs and flows of boom/bust, and it's a steady growth economy.

It's an export economy, just by definition, nonresidents coming to Wyoming, spending their money on goods and services and then returning home.

And so what does that mean for us in communities across Wyoming?

It's relief of taxes, those taxes that are built up for, that go back to cities and counties come from the visitor industry, supporting schools and law enforcement and libraries and hospitals and public services.

And so certainly to the purpose of the Office of Tourism is to leverage that visitation and grow what we call incremental travel.

And so there would probably always be a base of travel.

People have been traveling to Wyoming since they could.

But where the true benefit comes in the economic output is when you can go above that base and then grow it exponentially.

And it represents about 33% more travel just by this incremental level.

And so that's quite a bit.

And I don't think that, you know, a state just like Wyoming or any other is willing to give up the benefits of that visitor economy.

- Better hope not.

We are in Fremont County.

Our station is headquartered here.

And I know that one of the things that, communities that aren't part of this destination-level economy, we're so fortunate to have these great destination places.

But what we're always hoping for in other towns on the way is they'll stop here and spend one night here.

Is this what you mean by incremental travel or staying in Wyoming?

- Well, that we refer to, you know, we have all kinds of marketing lingo that we use.

- Let's hear some.

- So yeah, let's dissect this a little bit.

That really is enhancing the length of stay.

So when you want to grow the visitationer, or the visitor economy, you want the economic output, meaning dollars and cents, you can have more visitors, you can have fewer visitors, but they spend more money; and one of the ways that you increase that economic output is you extend the length of stay.

And so when you have things that will slow a visitor down, whether it be for a half day or an overnight, you're actually growing that length of stay and then the economic benefit to the communities.

But you know, in Wyoming, we're fortunate that we have these beautiful icons of nature: our national parks, our national monuments.

We're surrounded by, you know, beautiful mountains and forest lands.

But the beauty of Wyoming is really the people going to and from these iconic destinations that may be their first trip to Wyoming.

And then the second trip they want to explore a little bit more and go out and see more.

And a lot of second-time visitors will come just for these types of communities and these great outdoor experiences.

- Yeah, so they've seen Yellowstone and experienced the great pros and some of the cons of that kind of travel.

But then there are other things, and that's all over the state.

This is part of what your department promotes, I presume?

- It is, and a few years ago, we actually, it was during the pandemic, there were CARES funds that were available.

And we wrote a proposal to the governor's office for use of some CARES funds for all of the lodging tax boards across Wyoming to do some work to help keep their visitor economy going.

And so we started a program that's now part of our ongoing budget called Destination Development Funds.

Every county across Wyoming is eligible for that.

And our goal is to help these communities develop products so they can have a reason for the visitor to slow down, they can do training for hospitality training, whether you're Lusk, Wyoming, or Cheyenne or Jackson or all the places in between.

The visitor economy is important to the local communities.

- And there's data, data, data, data, data that you're looking at all the time, and shows you that this approach is working.

- Yes, and it's not, you know, this is something that we've always known, but we haven't always had the resources to be able to really invest in it and see how far, you know, we can help these communities and providing guidance.

The work has to be done by them.

But if there is a desire in a local community to grow within the visitor economy, we want to be able to help them out by providing them with tools and data and resources and some financial resources to help them get there.

- Yeah, in Wyoming, that can be a delicate sort of issue from, well, we want the government to stay out of our lives.

But there are just some awfully important places where private or smaller governments can work with bigger governments, and where private enterprise can work with government.

I would think that travel and tourism is a huge one.

- When we say partners and, you know, we talk about our industry stakeholders or partners, we use those terms interchangeably.

But we really do mean like governments, city and county governments or local lodging tax boards which are instruments of government.

We're an instrument of government.

But we also work very closely with the private sector, with dude ranches and hotels and attractions and other service providers, tour guides, outfitters, whatever the case may be.

You know, we're all part of one industry.

We may have verticals within that industry, but we're all part of this travel and tourism industry.

- I was a newspaper man for a long time, which I mentioned, maybe too often on this show, but an editorial that I wrote again and again and again in different ways when this objection was raised or this level of discomfort was expressed, private enterprise shouldn't be mixed up with government; I'd say, "Well, let's get mixed up with 'em a little bit and then show 'em the Wyoming way to do it."

If your criticism is tax dollars are wasted, let's show 'em how they can be put to good use.

- The role of government, although, you know, we're not a policy or regulatory agency, is to create a business community that is thriving and that offers opportunity for growth and development and jobs and generating tax revenues.

I mean, that's what you want in a thriving economy.

And in the visitor industry, residents and visitors enjoy the same things.

So you can build out livable communities in Wyoming that are attractive to many industries, that, you know, where they want their employees to live and work, and the visitors enjoy the same things.

We like to hike and explore and, you know, visit our Western culture.

We want great places to eat.

We want events to attend.

But it turns out we as residents also want those same things.

We want livable communities.

And so the relationship between tourism and what you would consider traditional economic development, you know, it goes hand in hand, because we're all working to build up these things.

And the people who benefit the most are the people who are right here in Wyoming: our residents, our neighbors, our colleagues.

- We talked about the great famous destinations for tourism that Wyoming has: Yellowstone National Park, Grand Teton National Park, huge, of course.

It goes without saying.

Those are federal establishments.

How does that affect or coincide with state tourism efforts?

They're in Wyoming but they're not Wyoming institutions.

- I feel so fortunate to have a superintendent like Cam Sholly in Yellowstone, Chip Jenkins at Grand Teton National Park, and many others at, you know, Fossil Butte, Devils Tower, and, you know, Fort Laramie.

But there's a lot of collaboration.

And we have a very close relationship.

And even when I talk to colleagues about, you know, what's going on with the national parks or a different federal partner, I don't hear those same kinds of collaborative relationships.

And I do know this: if there's a process that involves even any evaluation of visitation or groups or anything, I have always felt really confident in being involved.

And I also feel very comfortable in reaching out to our federal partners about what can we do, how can we have a seat at the table?

And I just feel like that we're really fortunate here.

That's always been, at least in my experience, and certainly with these two superintendents more so than any others, I really appreciate it and I value it and I don't take it for granted.

- We were in Yellowstone a couple of years ago, right at the end of the winter season with Cam Sholly, the superintendent there, and I said, "Once people have seen Old Faithful, what would you recommend?"

He said, I can't quite remember the formula, but he said, like, "95% of Yellowstone visitation is centered in 2% of the park."

And he said, "You wouldn't believe this place."

- [Diane] Yeah.

- There's so much else to do.

And I think you'd sort of expand that to the rest of Wyoming, couldn't you?

- Really.

I mean, think about this: 2.2 million acres, and as Superintendent Sholly has said, and I've heard him say this too, and I think the paved roads only equates to about 2% of it.

And then in Wyoming, when you have this, you know, 100,000 square miles of beautiful space, you know, there's a lot of room to roam here.

And so there's a lot of opportunity to engage people, that they really can absorb all the other beautiful places in and around Wyoming.

And to some of us who are residents who might think, "Oh, that looks stark."

But to a visitor, that can be something really unique and opening and- - Interesting.

- And inspiring.

Yes.

You know, when you look at the industry sectors that you get through the National Bureau, and they're the same whether you're Wyoming, New York, whatever, there are all these industry codes, and so there are a variety of them; but the leisure and hospitality sector represents about 14% of all employment in Wyoming.

And that's behind government, which is about 20%.

And so that holds- - But it's ahead of energy.

- Ahead of energy- - Ahead of ag.

- Yes.

And again, I don't want to be one who speaks about one industry being better than the other.

- Neither do I.

- But I'm here to talk about the travel and tourism industry.

And so I'm gonna tout the values of this particular industry.

So the largest private sector employer, the second or third leading contributor of sales and use tax: that's huge.

You know, the state, their general fund operates about 50% on sales and use tax.

And then the money that's collected and then redistributed back to the counties and the cities where it's collected.

You know, just think about that.

That's not money out of our pockets as Wyoming residents; these are visitors who are coming in and buying goods and services in Downtown Laramie or Rollins.

They're buying tickets to a museum.

They're, you know, buying souvenirs.

These are all expenditures, overnight excursions, everything.

That helps grow this visitor economy.

And that's not us putting money; these are visitors pumping money into Wyoming's economy.

- You came on into your position in what year?

- 2003.

- 2003.

So we're more than 20 years.

- 22-plus.

- What's happened to tourism in terms of Wyoming's economy in that time?

- Visitor spending in 2004 was right at 2.4 billion.

And just in '24, we won't have the '25 numbers until after the first of the year, it's a $5 billion industry in Wyoming.

That's about a 240% growth.

You know, it's just an example of how marketing can influence people's decisions and where they go and what they do.

And so they have to know about Wyoming first before we can get them to Wyoming.

And we have to keep Wyoming at the top of the consumer's mindset, because we have competitors out there that are spending a lot of marketing dollars trying to get travelers to visit Colorado and Montana and Utah and, you know, cities and many other places around the United States.

And we're also competing with big events.

- We've done shows about agriculture.

We've done shows about energy.

We do months or twos' worth of shows about government every year.

My feeling is that tourism overlaps with all of those.

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

- If you've never seen a Wyoming coal mine as a visitor, I'm telling you, that's something you ought to see, right?

And the same with with ag and touring the state capitol or the state museum.

- I grew up in Gillette, in Campbell County.

- You did?

- My grandfather homesteaded there.

So, you know, our family, deep in agricultural roots.

And so, you know, the value of wide open spaces and wildlife habitat that the agriculture community provides, it contributes greatly to, it's really on brand, you know, for this last bastion of the West.

And also, when I was in college, in my summer months, for four years, worked as a tour guide for the Cordero Mining Company.

There's stories to tell.

It goes back to storytelling.

You know, these places that, and it's a value set for respecting this land and this place.

And that resonates through the agriculture community, through our industry, our fossil fuels, other energy technologies.

And it certainly sits as a core value through the travel and tourism industry too.

So lots in common.

- We've done "Wyoming Chronicle" shows on some of the nonnatural attractions in Wyoming.

And there's a surprising, maybe to some, a surprising number of them that are absolutely first class.

I think you said you're from Gillette.

You know about this Frontier Auto Museum that- - Oh, I love it.

He's done such a great job.

- It's fantastic.

- Yeah.

Really has.

- And we were there two years ago, and now he's expanded it further, as you no doubt know.

We've been to the National Museum of Wildlife Art outside Jackson, another great thing.

In Fremont County, the Dan Starks Military Museum thing; you go in there, it's hard to believe it's in Wyoming.

- It is.

He's really done something amazing there, with high visibility.

And we've worked with... It piques a lot of journalists' interest.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And, of course, the whole Buffalo Bill Center of the West complex.

I know that the natural wonders, of course, inevitably, they're sort of a bulletproof part of Wyoming travel and tourism.

But there's more and more things where you don't have, you aren't necessarily standing, looking at some spectacular outdoor site.

It's all part of what you're trying to do.

- The visitor who comes to Wyoming doesn't come self-contained.

When they come here, they want to see wildlife.

They might want to go on a horseback ride.

They may want to visit a museum.

they may want to go to a spa.

They may want to mountain bike.

But they don't come with a horse trailer and horses and bikes on the back and a drift boat and waders and a scope.

And I think one of the greatest demands, and probably a gap in our growth of the visitor economy is in service providers; in areas that are more destination-focused, they naturally become greater.

Cody, Wyoming, Jackson have a lot of service providers.

So you can be in your hotel and someone could come and pick you up and take you out on a scenic drive.

You know, all self-contained food is included.

In places, other places, it may be they're developing, but they're not as consistent and more sporadic.

But that's when you can also extend that length of stay, because you give people, it's convenience for you, and you can go out and see it.

I mean, you could go wildlife-watching with a guide somewhere if that service were available in any place in Wyoming.

I mean, I think about when the sage-grouse are, you know, in the spring, and to go to have someone, a naturalist take you out with permission, based to locations- - And knows where to look.

- And knows where to look, and to provide you with binoculars and a hot cup of coffee, and can explain to you about these beautiful birds and what they're doing and the importance of them to our overall ecosystem.

You know, and people, when you're exposed to something, you are much more passionate about sustaining it and keeping it there for generations to come.

Now, you may come here as a kid and experience something; you want to come back as an adult, bring your own children, and then you may want to bring your grandchildren.

Because once you're immersed in it and you can see it firsthand, it touches you in a way that a virtual connection just can't.

- And you've told other people about it through those things.

- Yes, and that's another big thing, is just, you know, word of mouth has always been such an important part of, we call it elevating our voice and expanding our share of voice.

But now with social media and all of these other channels, you have this opportunity to really elevate that share of voice and talk about it through personal suggestions and personal experiences.

- Where does the tribal focus enter into your job?

Maybe to do with gaming or other aspects, cultural aspects?

- Yeah, I think, you know, the bigger part that draws people in is the cultural component.

And that is something that is really, you know, a story needs to be told from a very organic and genuine place and a very authentic story.

And so we have worked closely with tribal leaders from both business councils around programs and stories that we personally have produced and promoted.

But we also work a lot with the local lodging tax board, again, with the Wind River Visitors Council, because those folks are here on the ground day in, day out.

They have a lot of the relationships.

And they also have some of the content that's already been produced.

And so what we try to do is share that content, make sure that it is cultural, that it meets all the cultural sensitivities, but it also promotes the opportunities for Native American Indians in a way that is coming from them and not produced by us.

It may be something that we might bring a camera in, like you're doing.

But it is a story that's told from a very authentic and genuine place.

- Yeah, it goes back to something you were saying earlier, that we live who in Wyoming tend to see certain things all the time and almost take it for granted sometimes.

But boy, a lot of people come here, and they've never been exposed to a powwow, for example, or some of the other ceremonial aspects, or this fantastic attire and regalia.

And it's just eye-popping for a lot of visitors, isn't it?

- It is, and I think, and part of what we are working closely with and, you know, wanting to assure is that there isn't just that visual of the ceremonial component, where you have an opportunity as a visitor to engage, sometimes because a public venue maybe that you can be invited into, a powwow, yes.

And that would give you, you know, an opportunity to learn more.

- In Wyoming, does the university have much of a role in tourism, or as big a role as you think it could?

- I'm so excited about what's happening at the University of Wyoming and within the development of tourism and recreation.

Outdoor Recreation and Tourism Management degree program launched probably in around 2018, 2019.

And then there was an initiative called WORTH, Wyoming Outdoor Recreation Tourism and Hospitality.

Just recently, with a very generous donation from Jay and Karen Kemmerer, the Jay Kemmerer WORTH Institute, as an institute now, is at the University of Wyoming.

And one of the primary goals of that is to A, help address and develop a qualified workforce for this industry, to provide research to things that academia can provide to the private sector, but also learn from the private sector in how they can develop curriculums and roles and serving the second largest industry in Wyoming.

- It only makes sense, doesn't it?

There's a big school of energy there.

The College of Agriculture has been there from the beginning.

Why not do this too?

- Yeah, I think, especially for a land-grant institution that is here to serve really, you know, the industries of Wyoming, and it isn't that there weren't other bits and pieces, but now there's something that really is institutionalized that has the name tourism in it: recreation tourism.

And I think the possibilities are really, I don't even think we understand the full potential of what this program can mean for Wyoming and for our industry as well.

- But you're retiring.

- I am.

- How come?

- It's been the honor of my professional career to lead this agency, but I also am at an age where I'm ready to do some other things.

- You've been named the top state tourism director in the nation.

You've accomplished some things, haven't you?

What are you proudest of?

- There are 24 employees at the Wyoming Office of Tourism who this is their passion.

And they live it and breathe it every day.

And so every success we've ever achieved is because of them.

Really, it is an honor, because I feel like in this world of tourism marketing, there are only 49 others who do what I do.

And we're close.

We're very collegial.

Because it's almost like your own private consulting or therapy group.

You can commiserate together, you can celebrate together.

They can help if you have a problem, problem solving.

You know, it's a really tight group.

So for those individuals to recognize the work of, and it's not just your marketing work, it is your work with communities, it's your work as a leader.

It's an honor, because I consider my colleagues to be aces.

And it was very much an honor.

And I accept it on behalf of all of the people of Wyoming.

- Diane Shober, outgoing director and leader-in-chief of Wyoming travel and tourism, congratulations to you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for what you've done.

Best wishes to you.

And thanks for being with us on "Wyoming Chronicle."

- Thank you, I've watched this show and I've always wanted to be a guest here.

So thank you so much for the invitation and the opportunity to talk about something that I feel very passionate about, and that's the tourism industry.

I've been fortunate to have a career in an industry I love, in a place that I love.

And so thank you for sharing that today with me, Steve.

(bright music)