THIS WEEK MARKED THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BERGEN CONCENTRATION CAMP IN GERMANY, JUST A FEW MONTHS AFTER THE COMMEMORATION, AUSCHWITZ WAS COMMEMORATED, IT WAS THE EPICENTER OF THE HORRORS OF THE HOLOCAUST.

THESE GRIM ANNIVERSARIES OFFER US OPPORTUNITIES FOR FLEXION AND NOW IN A NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY, THE HOLOCAUST, 80 YEARS ON, SIMON TRAVELS ACROSS EUROPE TO SPEAK TO SURVIVORS AND BETTER UNDERSTAND THIS VERY DARK PERIOD IN OUR HISTORY.

AS A BRITISH JEW, IT IS ALSO DEEPLY PERSONAL FOR HIM.

>> ALL OVER THE WORLD, HATRED IS ON THE RISE, AND WE REACHED A MOMENT OF THE LAST SURVIVORS PASSING ON, IT IS UP TO US HISTORIANS TO MAKE SURE THE FULL ENORMITY OF WHAT HAPPENED WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED.

>> AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY, IT WAS STEP-BY-STEP.

>> SIMON JOINS US TO DISCUSS WHAT HE LEARNED ON THIS PARTICULAR JOURNEY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, YOUR FILM THE HOLOCAUST 80 YEARS ON WILL BE AIRING ON PBS ON TUESDAY.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO MAKE THIS FILM NOW?

>> WELL, TWO REASONS REALLY, ONE, THIS PAINFUL PARADOX WE ARE FACING RIGHT NOW, NAMELY THERE HAS NEVER BEEN MORE HOLOCAUST EDUCATION AVAILABLE WITHIN SCHOOLS, BUT WE ARE ALSO FACED WITH A KIND OF IRRUPTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, VERY UPSETTING I THINK, IT HAS ALMOST BEEN NORMALIZED, NOT JUST IN THE KIND OF FAR LEFT AND FAR RIGHT BUT ACTUALLY, IT'S ALMOST THE RESULT OF PEOPLE YAWNING WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD AUSCHWITZ BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT IT AND THE HOLOCAUST USED PRETEXTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATELY DEVOTED TO ISRAEL, BOTH RIGHTLY AND WRONGLY, SO I HAVE KNOWN FOR A WHILE, THIS WASN'T THE WHOLE STORY AND THERE WAS MUCH MORE TO IT AND A DIFFERENT KIND OF STORY TO TELL, BOTH IN TERMS OF TIMING AND ALSO IN TERMS OF ULTIMATELY HOW TO UNIQUELY TALK ABOUT THIS CATASTROPHE AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT.

SO WE BEGIN THE STORY AS YOU KNOW OF HORRIFYING MASSACRES, AS EARLY AS DECEMBER OF 1941 AND IN SPATIAL TERMS AS WELL, IT ISN'T JUST THE GERMANS WHO BRING THIS ABOUT.

SO OUR MISSION, WE FELT INCLUDING MYSELF, I LEARNED A LOT WHILE FILMING IT AND RESEARCHING IT, THERE WAS A LOT MORE TO SAY, A LOT MORE THAT URGENTLY NEEDS TO BE SAID AND SHOWN.

>> WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN LITHUANIA?

>> IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY, HORRIFYINGLY TRAGIC MOMENT, ALMOST AS SOON AS THE GERMANS INVADED LITHUANIA IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

THEY ARE EMBARKING ON AN EXPERIMENT, THERE'S NO QUESTION, THE EXTERMINATION WAS THE TOP OF THE AGENDA BUT HOW IT COULD POSSIBLY DO -- BE DONE, IT WAS A MATTER OF PRACTICAL STRATEGIES, SO IT WAS NECESSARY REALLY TO TEST THE WATERS, TO SEE IF LOCAL POPULATIONS IN EASTERN EUROPE WOULD BE MORE THAN WILLING COLLABORATORS, SO A FEW DAYS, JUST A VERY FEW DAYS AFTER THE GERMANS OCCUPIED FOR EXAMPLE THE CITIES OF KINDNESS, TERRIBLE MASSACRES OCCURRED WHICH IS WHY MY MOTHER'S FAMILY ORIGINALLY CAME FROM.

>> THERE WERE 40 SYNAGOGUES BEFORE THE WAR, AND THEY WERE AN AMAZING COMMUNITY, FIVE YIDDISH NEWSPAPERS, THOSE YOUTH ORGANIZATIONS, THERE WAS AN ATHLETIC CLUB.

THERE WAS EVERY KIND OF JEWISH ACTIVITY.

SO IT WAS FLOURISHING, PROSPERING, CULTURALLY AND IN EVERY OTHER WAY, TOO.

AND THAT'S WHY WHEN A FEW DAYS AFTER THE GERMANS ARRIVED IN THE LAST WEEK OF JUNE, THE SHOCK OF THE HATRED THAT THE JEWISH COMMITTEE FELT WAS TRAUMATIC.

THERE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY MASSACRE OF THE AGRICULTURAL UNION, SOMETHING BETWEEN 50 AND 70 JEWS ARE BEATEN TO DEATH WITH IRON BARS, AND THE WHOLE THING IS PHOTOGRAPHED AND FILMED.

THIS HAPPENS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT WITH SPECTATORS STANDING AROUND.

HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MASSACRES OCCURRED IN 1941, BEFORE AUSCHWITZ WAS EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT AS A DEATH CAMP, SOMETHING LIKE ONE POINT MANY PEOPLE WERE MURDERED BY SHOOTINGS IN THAT EARLY STAGE.

SO THE GERMANS HAD THEIR ANSWER, THEY HAD HELPERS RIGHT THROUGH THE BELT OF EASTERN EUROPE, AND THE BALTIC STREET.

BUT, PART OF OUR MISSION WAS THAT WE SHOULD INFRINGE IN FRONT OF THESE THINGS.

WE SHOULDN'T REDUCE THEM TO SIMPLY NUMERICAL DATA.

>> THERE IS FASCINATING DOCUMENTATIONS IN THE FILM, AND IT MAKES ME WONDER, WHY IS IT THAT WE CAN SET ASIDE OUR HUMANITY TO NO LONGER SEE THAT PERSON THAT WALKED THE STREETS WITH YOU YESTERDAY AS NO LONG -- LONGER WORTHY OF LIFE ANYMORE.

IT IS A FOOTAGE OF A HISTORIAN WHO HAD BEEN FROM THAT AREA SHE IS WEARING A TOOTH FROM A BODY.

>> YES, THE WOMAN IS ASKED BY THE INTERVIEWER, WAS THE PEOPLE LIVING OR DEAD WHEN YOU GOT THE TOOTH, AND SHE SAID WITH THIS EXTRAORDINARY EXPRESSION, THEY WERE VERY MUCH ALIVE.

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WERE DEAD, AND IT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION, WHAT IS IT ABOUT US REALLY THAT CAN DO THAT?

BUT ONE OF THE SURVIVORS WE INTERVIEWED BEFORE HE DIED, SAYS VERY PROFOUNDLY, AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY.

>> AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY, IT COMES STEP-BY-STEP, EVIL COMES STEP-BY-STEP.

AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN DIFFERENT.

LET'S START WITH REDUCING HATE, AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AS A PEOPLE.

>> IT TAKES HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF DEHUMANIZATION TO MAKE PEOPLE SUDDENLY REALIZE THEY ARE NOT REALLY HUMANS AT ALL, THEY MIGHT BE LIVING AMONG US, THEY MIGHT HAVE BUSINESSES LIKE WE DO, THEY MIGHT SEEM LIKE THE REST OF US BUT TRULY THEY REALLY AREN'T.

IN THE CASE OF THE JEWS, THEY WERE THOUGHT OF AS CARRYING INFECTIOUS DISEASES FOR EXAMPLE, THIS LITERALLY PEDESTRIAN PERMIT, SO MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER, THEY SAY THIS IS REALLY A CASE OF PEST EXTERMINATION.

PEOPLE WERE ALREADY PRIMED BY GENERATIONS OF UNSPEAKABLE HATRED, RACIST MEMORIES TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS THE INTELLECTUAL EXPLANATION, EMOTIONALLY TO ME, AFTER ALL THIS TIME, AFTER ALL THIS RESEARCH, IT STILL DOESN'T QUITE COMPUTE BECAUSE THE BETTER PART OF OURSELVES DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE IT COMPUTE BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY DOES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS FASCINATING ABOUT YOUR FILM, I SEE THIS SCALE OF THE BUREAUCRACY, YOU CALL IT THE HOLOCAUST WITH GLOVES ON.

WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

>> THE MOST PAINFUL THING, A LOT OF MY LIFE HAS BEEN SPENT RESEARCHING DARK HISTORY, THE NETHERLANDS WAS THE MOST TOLERANT, HOSPITABLE PLACE FOR JEWS TO LIVE IN EUROPE, BETWEEN THE EARLY 17th CENTURY AND UNTIL THE HOLOCAUST ARRIVED.

SO UPSETTING TO REALIZE THAT THE NETHERLANDS HAD THE HIGHEST RATE OF MASSACRE AND EXTERMINATION IN ALL OF WESTERN EUROPE.

>> I THINK SORT OF THE DUMBFOUNDING THING IS THAT AN ENTIRE WORLD, MORE THAN 100,000 COULD BE MADE TO DISAPPEAR WITH INSTITUTIONAL PASSIVENESS.

EASTERN EUROPE AND AUSCHWITZ SEEMS LIKE THE HOLOCAUST, BUT THE HOLOCAUST CAN ALSO COME WITH GLOVES ON UNTIL THEY ARE TAKEN OFF.

AND THAT IS AS HORRIFYING IN ITS OWN WAY.

>> SO, WHEN YOU TACKLE THAT, YOU SEE TWO THINGS, THE GENUINE SENSE AMONG THE DUTCH, ESPECIALLY IN AMSTERDAM, THE SOLIDARITY AND BROTHERHOOD, IN THE FIRST YEAR OF THE GERMAN OCCUPATION, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF SIGNS OF RESISTANCE WHEN JEWS USED TO WEAR A YELLOW STAR, PEOPLE DOFFED THEIR ASH IN THE STREET, MOST REMARKABLY THERE WAS A MASSIVE STRIKE AGAINST DEPORTATIONS THAT TOOK LACE IN FEBRUARY OF 1941.

AFTER THAT, TWO THINGS HAPPENED, THE GERMANS HIT VERY HARD ANYBODY THAT HAD A PROTEST, THEY REPLACED THE POLICE, BUT THE OTHER THING IS, THEY CREATED A BUREAUCRATIC APPARATUS, IT IS NOT LIKE UKRAINE, IT IS NOT LIKE LITHUANIA WHERE PEOPLE WERE BEATEN IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND TAKEN OFF IN CATTLE CARS.

BUT, THE FIRST THING IS A SYSTEM OF INFORMATION, OF IDENTITY CARDS.

THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE FILM WHICH SHOWED EXACTLY WHERE THE GROUP OF 10 JEWS WERE LIVING, AND IT WASN'T JUST IN THE JEWISH QUARTER, IT WAS ALL OVER THE CITY AND WHEN THAT INFORMATION IS COLLECTED, THE SECOND IN COMMAND OF THE OCCUPATION TELLS HIS SUPERIOR, WE NOW HAVE THE JEWS IN THE BACK.

SO THEY WERE VERY NIMBLE IN A WAY, THEY COULD GO FOR FULL ON SLAUGHTER AND TERROR OR THEY COULD RELY NOT ON BARBARIC COLLABORATIONS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT MASSACRE BUT ON BUREAUCRATIC INDIFFERENCE, THE INSTITUTIONS, PEOPLE WHO DID NOT WANT TO PUT THEIR HEAD ABOVE, WHO FELT THEY WERE JUST DOING THEIR INITIATIVE WORK IN REGISTERING JEWS WHICH WAS EXCESSIVE, AND ACCESSORY TO THEIR SLAUGHTER.

>> THIS SEEMS TO BE THE STORY FROM LITHUANIA TO WARSAW, YOU REALLY GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SHOW THE LEVEL OF RISK THAT HISTORIANS HAVE PUT IN THE TIME OF THE HOLOCAUST TO ARCHIVE THIS, BUT THEN ALSO TO TRY TO PRESERVE THIS MATERIAL AND TO BE ABLE TO PRESENT IT FOR US.

>> YES, THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

IF I HAD ONE BRIEF TO MYSELF APART FROM SHOWING THIS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE LESS FAMILIAR WITH AUSCHWITZ, IT WAS KIND OF HONOR THE SENSE THAT THEY WERE MEMORY KEEPERS, SO MANY OF THEM ACTUALLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY RESIGNED THEMSELVES TO THE FACT IT WAS VERY UNLIKELY THAT THEY WOULD SURVIVE AND VERY FEW OF THEM DID, SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WE WANT WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE WANT OUR RECORD, OUR WITNESS, TESTIMONY, EVIDENCE TO SURVIVE.

IN THE CASE OF THE WONDERFUL WARSAW GROUP, LED BY A HISTORIAN TO WHOM I HAVE PROFESSIONAL REVERENCE, THEY HID THEIR ARCHIVES IN MILK JUGS AND STEEL CASES AND BURIED THEM UNDER A SCHOOL.

AND THEY WERE SO OBSESSED WITH THE SURVIVAL OF THESE DOCUMENTS THAT ONLY A TINY NUMBER OF THIS GROUP OF 60 PEOPLE NEW AT ANY MOMENT THE LOCATION OF WHERE THOSE RECORDS WERE, LEST THEY BE TORTURED AND FORCED TO REVEAL IT.

>> YOU SAID I WONDER HOW I WOULD HAVE DEALT WITH IT, WE CAN SEE WITH SEVERAL SHOTS, YOU CAN KIND OF SEE THEM WALKING INTO JUST PLACES THAT ARE THE WORST OF HUMANITY.

>> YES, AND THAT HAS NEVER LEFT ME, ACTUALLY, WHILE IT IS FILMING, AND EVER SINCE.

THE PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN I ACTUALLY SAY THAT, IS QUITE PROFOUND, YOU REMEMBER THESE EXTRAORDINARY COURIERS ESCAPE FROM THE FIRST GASSING CAMPS AND MAKE IT TO WARSAW.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL AS WELL AS PHYSICAL CARE OF THIS CATASTROPHICALLY BLEAK EPISODE HAS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY HEARD, AND WHETHER THESE GASSING PLACES SHOULD BE WIDESPREAD THROUGHOUT THE POPULATION.

WHETHER THAT IS GOING TO DO MORE HARM OR MORE GOOD AND AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT, THEY ARE DIVIDED ABOUT THAT.

THE MAJORITY DECIDE PANIC IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE A GOOD THING SO I THINK IT IS A FUNNY THING, I'M AN OLD GUY NOW AND I HAVE BEEN DOING HISTORY FOR 60 YEARS REALLY, AS AN ACADEMIC, AS WELL AS A POPULAR WRITER, IT'S THE ONE HISTORY THAT DOESN'T FIT INTO THE BOX OF HISTORICAL ANALYSIS FOR ME ANYWAY, WHERE YOU CAN DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON, YOU SEEK THE CAUSES, YOU TRY TO DESCRIBE THE EFFECTS AND ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO EVERYBODY THOUGHT, THE SURVIVORS ARE DYING OUT, THE HOLOCAUST IS LONG-AGO, IT IS HISTORY, SUBJECT TO THE SAME COOL ANALYSIS THAT WE DO WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

IT IS NOT LIKE THAT.

ACTUALLY, IT ESCAPES THE TOMB OF REASON, IT ESCAPES THE BOX OF REASON, SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

A LOT OF THINGS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CANNOT BELIEVE HOW PEOPLE CAN TURN ON THEIR NEIGHBORS, HOW SOMEBODY CAN STAND IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND BEAT AN OLD MAN TO DEATH WITH AN IRON BAR, ALL THESE TERRIBLE THINGS.

IT IS NOT LIKE OTHER KINDS OF HISTORY, IT WALKS AND TALKS AND STALKS ARE PRESENT AND FUTURE, TOO.

>> I WANT TO ASK, HOW MUCH OF OUR COLLECTIVE, I GUESS FADING MEMORY IS BECAUSE OF THOSE GENERAL RECENCY BIASES THAT WE HAVE, WHEN YOU JUST HAVE THIS TENDENCY TO MAYBE ASSUME, THIS IS HISTORY, THIS IS IT TODAY, THIS COULDN'T HAPPEN NOW.

BUT I DON'T KNOW, HAVE WE LET OUR DEFENSES DOWN?

>> I THINK WE ARE IN TERRIBLE JEOPARDY BECAUSE OF A SHORT ATTENTION SPAN, BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF CULT OF THE IMMEDIATE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT INSTAGRAM AND SNAPCHATTED, BUT THE YOUNG ARE SEDUCED AND FIXATED AND IMPATIENCE IS EXCITING, BRING THE NEXT THING ON.

BRING THE NEXT MOMENT ON.

THIS IS FADED COLORS, AS YOU SAY, IN BLACK AND WHITE, COULD BE AS REMOTE AS THE EGYPTIANS AT THE TIME OF THE PYRAMIDS OR SOMETHING.

THAT'S WHY HISTORIANS STRUGGLE AS WE MIGHT CONTINUE TO PERSIST WITH THE NOTION, BUT THE PAST LIVES AMONGST US, IT NEVER REALLY GOES AWAY, WE ARE THE SUM OF OUR PASTS AS WELL AS THE HOPE FOR BREAKING FREE OF THEM IN SOME CASE AND HAVING A BETTER FUTURE, BUT WHAT THE PAST TELLS US, IT IS NOT LIKE ANTIQUE COLLECTING.

IT IS AN INSURANCE POLICY AGAINST MAKING THE SAME HORRIBLE MISTAKE EVER AGAIN.

AND IN THE CASE OF THE HOLOCAUST, THE MANY WAYS IN WHICH EVIL AND CATASTROPHE COMPOUNDS ON YOU, FROM THE LIBERATION OF HORRIFIC VIOLENCE TO THIS SINISTER STEP-BY-STEP, SNEAKY APPROACH, GRADUAL DEGRADATION INTO RUIN.

THAT CAN HAPPEN AT ANY TIME AND AT ANY PLACE.

>> THE FILM IS CALLED THE HOLOCAUST, 80 YEARS ON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.