[Music] Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for north central Minnesota.

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Welcome to Lakeland Currents.

I'm Todd Haugen.

On Lakeland Currents this time our guests are from a couple of solid waste handling portions of area counties.

From Beltrami County we have the solid waste director Brian Olson and from Hubbard County the director of solid waste is Josh Holte.

Welcome to Lakeland Currents you two.

Yeah thanks for having us.

Yeah thanks a lot.

This is an issue that might not get people too excited, you know, a little trash talk, but at the same time it's something we're all involved in.

We all generate trash and what to do with it is something we all need to at least think about and you guys' jobs, I mean, you may think oh okay well you're talking with the solid waste director so you're going to be talking about the transfer stations, well you have more to do than that, don't you.

Yeah we do, Todd.

I guess our jobs consist of, you know, both of us operate landfills and transfer stations but we also deal with public complaints with trash.

So I don't know if Josh wants to fill in any more on that.

Yeah and I mean it's everything from running and operating the transfer stations in Hubbard County, also all of our recycling programs as well as, you know, just solid waste planning and staying in the know on everything that's going on in the state with rules and things that may affect us in our operations as well so.

Yeah and there's a lot of rules and that's I guess I would have to say that, you know, I don't think when either one of us got into this occupation that we realized that there was so many rules.

All of our facilities have permits that we have to abide by and some of them several permits that we have to abide by and we get inspected on those, we have reports to do on them.

So, yeah, there's a lot of nuances in our occupation.

Not only are there a lot of rules to know, but they're always changing.

I mean they add to them each year don't they.

Oh yes.

Yes sometimes they don't tell us.

The burden of learning about new things is on you I suppose.

Yes, right.

There's a lot of professional education throughout the year as well, either through the MPCA, we have a Solid Waste Administrators Association, there's other associations that we both belong to.

Josh, in Hubbard County, are you with your transfer stations are you shipping trash to the incinerator in Fosston, Polk County?

Yeah so Hubbard County I think around 2016 became a member of the Polk County Group, so we're one of the six counties where all of our waste and recycling goes to Polk County.

So a portion of our waste will go to Fosston where it goes through the resource recovery facility and eventually through the incinerator.

And then a portion of our waste goes directly to the landfill which is located in Gentilly, close to Crookston, Minnesota.

And then all recycling as well goes to the facility in Fosston, which we call the MRF, the Material Recovery Facility.

And that's where the recycling from Beltrami goes as well, right?

It does.

All six counties that are part of this coalition, all of our recyclables go there.

They get sorted into the different types of commodity and then sold.

Now more about recycling in just a moment, but why does some trash go right to the landfill by Gentilly?

So our waste streams kind of need to be separated based on the makeup of it.

So like our household garbage that you would, you know, put like let's say underneath your kitchen sink or go in a garbage bag, that is able to go through the processing equipment once it gets to Fosston.

But things like furniture, large bulky items, them things can't be going through that processing equipment so they're sent directly to the landfill.

And there I guess we pretty much know what happens to them.

Is that, there are new rules coming about linings for landfills.

Is that landfill by Gentilly, is that lined?

Yes that's a municipal solid waste landfill that can pretty much take anything there.

there's certain things that it still can't take like hazardous waste and and stuff like that There's special landfills just for some special waste.

One of the things we'll find out a little more about on this show is that landfills have a capacity and sometimes they reach that.

How about that landfill by Gentilly, is it near its capacity, any idea?

You know, I think continually they got to work through different permitting phases and they're going through that right now to do an expansion at the landfill, but the area of the landfill itself, you know, it's over a 300 acre site that should have capacity, you know, for the next several generations as long as permitting is able to go through so.

And the ash from the incinerator in Fosston goes there as well correct?

Correct.

Yeah they have a separate ash landfill, separate from where the mixed solid waste or the MSW.

Oh so I see.

And they're able to use that ash actually it's a material they're able to use for highway projects and road projects.

It's kind of a beneficial reuse in some of the materials like that we call where they they're able to use that for road bases and actually, you know, take that out of that landfill and have a usable purpose for that so.

Got to like that.

How many transfer stations do you have in Hubbard County and where are they?

So we have the two transfer stations in Hubbard County.

So we have the one right close to the Kabekona Corner in Laporte which is a little bit smaller of a transfer station and then we have our transfer station in Park Rapids.

Both of the transfer stations are, you know, a full service operation where we also have a demolition landfill at each site as well so.

Okay, Brian.

How about in Beltrami County?

Well, in Beltrami we have two transfer stations as well and it kind of, population kind of determines how big they are.

So the one in Blackduck is more austere.

It can handle everything except for packer trucks and the one of Bemidji obviously is our flagship of transfer stations in Beltrami County.

We take everything pretty much there, so except for industrial waste.

There's some certain things and that's the thing about transfer stations, even.

We can't take everything and we've had some of those situations, just happened recently, where we get 55 gallon barrels of stuff and they still have material in them and they came from a commercial business and we can't accept those.

Those have to get processed through a hazardous waste outlet like OSI, Safety- Kleen, Clean Harbors takes care of stuff like that.

I guess I would make that mistake if I were generating that kind of waste because there's the facility at the transfer station in Bemidji where you can drop off used motor oil for instance.

Right, and that's only for residents.

We're not I guess permitted or set up to take commercial waste so that's never been and that's pretty much for all of our counties we're not set up to take the commercial waste.

They're supposed to work directly with a vendor to take care of their stuff.

I see.

And the commercial hazardous waste.

Yes, right.

Speaking of residents, using transfer stations I know in Beltrami Brian you've worked on trying to remind people that they need to bring those cards.

How's that going?

Well, you know, it's a constant I won't say struggle but it's a constant reminder.

Some people are very good at it and you know the cards are there for I guess a reason, to try to only allow people that pay for the service to get the service and that's why those orange cards are, you know, we sent them all out and actually in the mail last fall again to try to make sure everyone was covered and it's a challenge that both of us have as far as only paying for our county's waste to get processed and recycled or disposed of.

And, you know, the more porous we have our waste stream the more we allow misuse of the system to be other people coming up I mean I know that we, you know, there's always talk that people from other counties that have to pay for certain special waste, for instance, refrigerators.

Some places have to charge $50 to $100 to get rid of a refrigerator.

Here we take them for free and there is a cost of processing a refrigerator.

You got to take all the refrigerant out of it and you have to actually have to be trained to do that and so yes there is a cost.

We send the refrigerators, once we do all of our due diligence to get it prepared to go to a recycler, and those actually get sold as scrap metal then.

Josh how about in Hubbard, do people have the cards, do they bring them, are they required to?

We haven't taken that step yet.

It's something we're always kind of looking at of how can we kind of ensure that only our residents are using our facilities or the residents outside of or you know in the neighboring counties are paying for that service.

So in Hubbard County we do have an option where residents that might live in different counties that come into our facilities can buy a yearly permit so they're able to utilize our facilities.

We've also in the last few years worked out an agreement with Beltrami County where let's say the northern Hubbard County residents they can fill out an application through my office and we send some fees up to Beltrami County where they're able to use the Beltrami County transfer station as well.

So, you know, gets the people that might be working in Bemidji another option than having to drive to the the north transfer station Kabekona so.

But that's being paid for as you said.

You're correct and we issue a card then as well and those cards actually have expiration dates on them because we, in order to continue to use our facilities, they have to fill out the application with Hubbard County and keep that going on a yearly basis.

So in Hubbard, property owners are being charged an annual solid waste handling fee on their property taxes like in Beltrami.

Yeah it's really very similar to Beltrami County.

You know we have an annual solid waste assessment that any property that has a, you know, residence on it will be charged that annual assessment and allows them to use our facility and, you know, our facilities, really I mean in the grand scheme of things, operate very, very similar.

You know Beltrami might have a few extra things that they charge for that we might not charge for but it's built into our solid waste assessment.

But in the grand scheme of things we operate pretty similar.

So I remember when that fee went into effect in Beltrami County and let's say it wasn't greeted with great enthusiasm, but it had a good purpose, obviously.

What's that money used for?

Well it's used, you know, when you look at the services, for instance, it augments our demo landfill as far as what the fee is there cuz right now the demo landfill is $17 a cubic yard, $17 a cubic yard for what we bring in there does not pay to operate that facility.

So we use some of it for that.

Some of it's used to send all of our recyclables over to Polk County to help with the transportation of, you know, the processing because once it hits the transfer station we have to then sort it and then some of it we process ourselves to get it ready to get sent to a recycler, for instance E-Waste.

So it's to do all of our special wastes, processing, and either recycling or disposal of that and the processing and disposal of all of your other waste.

You know we have basically everything that's larger than a, you know, if you bring furniture in we have a charge for that, but anything, you know, I would say a 5 gallon pail or less we don't charge for.

Everything bigger than that we can take.

You know part of the thought process is not everyone brings in furniture every day so if you want to get rid of your furniture, you know, there's a charge for that.

Kind of the same with demo debris.

We'll help offset that cost but there's a, you know, it doesn't pay for the whole thing so when you bring stuff to the demo landfill you're actually paying only a part of what it truly costs to operate that facility.

Let's back up for just a moment because you mentioned the demo landfill in Beltrami which is about to become kind of an issue, right Brian?

There's some transitions coming there.

Yeah it's a huge transition, it's all across the state of Minnesota, and we have actually tried to get in front of this.

It's been talked about for several years.

We actually just received a letter here this fall from the MPCA stating that they're going through rulemaking and the rules should be done sometime in 2024 and once those rules are in effect we have 7 years from then to come up with a plan to close our landfill and come up with another way.

So the real push is to put all of our land or all of our demo debris into a lined landfill.

You know it's part of our whole, we had a nine county group that got together, we tried to do this regionally so we're not, you know, we feel like we can do things more efficient and better if we work together with our partner counties and come up with a plan that will hopefully take care of this waste stream for all nine counties and kind of produce at least a solution for this waste which everyone's been telling us it's changing but no one actually has a solution.

We came up with what we consider the solution and it's what we call a hub and spokes system, where we get rid, we're really closing 11 landfills and we're asking to have basically two lined landfills and the thing of it is the state really doesn't even know what these landfills are going to be, if they're going to be a c&d lined landfill because there's no such thing really as far as a landfill or if they're going to be industrial landfills.

What we believe is that they're not going to be MSW landfills because even the one over in Polk County I believe is going to have to have some type of c&d/industrial landfill area for this special waste because unless they, again, unless the state completely changes how they see waste it's always been a thought that we're supposed to reduce the amount of waste going into an MSW landfill because those landfills at such a cost we try to conserve the airspace in there because it's such a valuable resource.

Now not everybody generates waste that goes to a demolition debris landfill but obviously I think the name is pretty much self-explanatory right?

What all goes there?

So the, you know, demolition debris landfill is really thought, you know I always think of it as if you think of your house.

Anything that's part of the actual structure of your house, the building, you know, that's what would go in a demolition landfill.

So, you know, we accept, you know, wood, lumber, siding, sheetrock, shingles, you know, anything that's really attached to your structure a permanent structure is really what the construction and demolition material is.

And the demo landfills in Hubbard County would go through the same, I mean they're going to be subject to the same rule changes that Brian spoke of correct?

Yeah so, you know exactly.

We're, I mean, we're up against the same deadlines and a lot of our facilities in the nine county group that we formed are also reaching the end of their life capacity as well.

So you know we tried to get out ahead of it as a region where finding the solution really for our region, but also to be a model of what the state can follow for the future of construction and demolition landfilling.

So we formed, with our nine county group we applied for grant funding.

We're actually able to receive a MPCA grant to do a big study to kind of lay out all these options, and as Brian mentioned, you know, the solution that we see is a hub and spoke solution where we'll have two lined landfills and the spokes would be, you know, our different transfer station sites around our nine counties that would bring the construction and demolition material into the hub facilities.

So I understand that sometimes that's the best way to do it, have everybody go together on two sites in this case, but then that involves moving a lot of demo debris.

Is the tonnage of demolition debris that goes into our landfill in Beltrami, for instance, currently about the same as the household waste that we're generating that goes from the transfer station to Fosston?

No we produce less demo debris overall than household waste or anything that would come to the transfer station.

I think, you know, and that's the problem with demo debris it's not a consistent waste flow because it kind of goes with, for instance when BSU did their big building demo we got a huge influx of demo debris that year.

We currently have had a huge influx of demo debris because of those motels that were just, or not motels but the apartment buildings that were just taken down that were condemned.

So it kind of, you know, when things like that happen we're really busy, and then it kind of goes, it kind of slows down so and that's the problem with demo debris is it's not a consistent flow.

Now we can look at some averages, but when we look at that you know we have to figure out how to keep these hubs and spokes going because of the fact that we need that revenue because even if we get this grant funding, which I'm very hopeful we will because we can't do it without it, that's been the message is if we don't get state funding and the state's part of the I guess the problem because of the fact that they're changing the rules.

They need to be part of the solution then too and part of that would be the funding aspect.

But that's where we need to look at how we're going to sustain that as well, so we got to figure out what those tip fees are, you know, the flow, the waste flow, you know.

I guess our group is trying to figure out every way to take to make c&d something else, to repurpose it, to have a beneficial reuse for it.

We're hopeful that we have some things that would be able to be sustained.

We've been, you know, I guess one of the big exciting things that I just would like to say is biochar, for instance, it's been a big push for biochar in the state of Minnesota.

It's nationally something that's really become I guess it's just been I guess the in the last couple years it's been in all the news as far as a new way to recycle different things and it's taking wood and really turning it into charcoal, and then that wood actually, or that charcoal, then becomes a soil amendment where you then charge it with some type of organic material and then it's a natural fertilizer and then that charcoal actually captures those nutrients and it doesn't just wash away into the soil.

So you know when you consider taking demo debris and then making it into a soil amendment to where now we're actually doing something for agriculture and turning soil that may not be that good to grow things into soil that's very nutrient and able to produce better crops.

Well the whole issue with solid waste disposal, with demo debris specifically, is something we'll have to watch closely in the coming years.

I hope you'll come back maybe next season and maybe the season after that because it's a huge part of the economic vitality of any area.

If you can't dispose of the stuff you have to tear down to build new stuff, right, well how are you going to keep building new stuff.

So that's a real important issue.

But we're down to just not that many minutes left in our show and I want to talk about recycling.

Now one of the stories that's been in the news and online, where everything is true that you read of course, not, but what people are saying is that recycling plastic, you and I talked about this Brian, what's being said is well there isn't any plastic recycling it's just an invention of the plastic industry.

They say oh yeah you can recycle your plastic now so go ahead buy another bottle of detergent or whatever just so people will feel better about buying their plastic bottles and then the skeptics are saying well it's not actually, it's just going from that recycling bin to the landfill or the incinerator in our case, but is that true?

Todd no it's not.

You know we won't do it unless we have a an outlet for it.

It has to become a commodity and that's the thing with recycling, you know, not everything is recyclable, you have to have an outlet for it, it has to be a commodity.

Someone else has got to be willing to purchase this material and even though the markets on that are very volatile as far as revenue that we get from that, which actually then goes back into the six county coalition to help pay for and offset the cost so we don't have to raise those tipping fees at the landfill and at the Fosston and material recovery facility.

But recycling, yes, it is you know we do type one and two plastics.

You know we are very hopeful.

We have sometime at the beginning of the year we might be able to do type five.

You know we've been up and down with type five.

The problem with this is it takes people to be part of the solution in this.

In the material recovery facility now we've actually replaced some people because we've been short staff there for what the past 24 months and have only been able to operate at partial capacity, so in order for that to happen we put robots in there.

We have actually what five robots now?

Yep five robots, we were just updated on that yesterday so, and these robots are going to allow us to actually have a cleaner recycling stream to where then our product is even we can do more, and it will be cleaner to where we'll hopefully we'll even get more money for that commodity.

Type one, two, and possibly five plastics.

What are these types and how do you find out what type you have?

Well the types are...

I'll let Josh.

I mean we have.

Yeah sorry.

Typically, you know, if you look there's a recycling label like on every container you have.

There'll be a number one or number two on there.

Like milk jugs are type two recyclable.

And the numbers in the little triangle sometimes on the bottom of the plastic container right.

Yep correct.

And then you have type one materials which are, I think, typically like a pop bottle, soda bottle, things like that and then the, you know, as you get, you know, into the different types of packaging material a lot of that can range from you know really I don't know three to seven, you know, a lot of it isn't really recyclable in our current system.

With number fives that would be really great for us to be able to capture, that's going to be capturing a lot of your produce containers, a lot of your yogurt containers, for instance, and things like that.

So now do you recycle ones and twos in Hubbard County?

Yep everybody, you know, within our six county system we're kind of limited to the same.

So we do number one and twos and that's what we advertise and honestly we do get a lot of, there's some contamination, you know, in there so it's, you know, really encouraging residents to really focus on what's actually recyclable and only putting that material in the recycling.

So don't bring the big plastic toys and all the rest of the big plastic things to the recycling areas.

Yeah and it's really just food, you know, it's food containers because all those large items like that even if it's a type one or two or a five for instance it won't go through our processing facility.

So those things will get unfortunately just discarded because the system won't process them and get it to the right waste or recycling stream.

So the other thing that is exciting about the state of Minnesota there was a new company that came in, you know, and we talk about recycling.

We have about 20 seconds.Okay and I would just say that there's a new company that takes basically this film garbage or shopping bags and then they're actually turning it in, Josh and I toured this facility, so when you say that does it truly turn into something, they produce this resin pellet and then that gets turned back into more plastic film bottles.

There's the evidence right there.

Guys thanks for what you do and thanks for joining us for this edition of Lakeland Currents.

I'm Todd Haugen.

We thank you for watching Lakeland Currents and for your support of Lakeland PBS.