Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey Education Association, making public schools great for every child.

♪ David: Welcome to "Chat Box."

I'm David Cruz.

We are in Atlantic City for the 109th conference.

We are in the exhibit hall and we will have a special program today cheering the majority of the major candidates for governor.

They begin with the Democrats, all of whom were invited, two of whom could not find it in their schedule to join us, despite the fact they have been here all week.

We will talk to and welcome the four Democratic candidates, beginning with the former mayor of Bon clear, Sean Spiller, and the head of a sponsor of "Chat Box."

Stephen Sweeney is a former Senate president.

Steve Fulop, and Ras Baraka.

Thank you for finding the time.

Let's start with what everybody has talked about the last couple of weeks, the beating that your party took on the national level, and it could be argued on the state level, as well.

What does it mean to the potential gubernatorial candidates.

But start with you, Mayor.

Sean: it means a lot of things.

We have to look at what happens to us on the federal level.

We have seen conversations that have gone on, and as an educator, I'm sure there will be cuts in the funding, so from the perspective of trying to lead the state as governor, I have to look at it in terms of what is the impact and how will we make up lost dollars?

How do we make sure it does not drive up local property taxes?

We have faced challenges before, but there will be a nuance because of a Trump presidency, and we have to mention that.

David: Mayor Spiller is a member of our committee advisory board.

For all the good it has done me.

Mr. President, what do you think that the impact is going to be on how you all or you specifically approach her candidacy?

Stephen: Unfortunately, Democrats have not really talked about pocket issues as much as they should have.

That's obvious.

Making sure that we talk about the economy.

The economy is important, growing jobs is important, affordability is important.

The thing that scares me the most is what President Trump basically telegraphed he is doing.

And that is going to hurt every state.

The are going to call back millions and millions of dollars, so, we have got to get in the game and talk about what is important to people every day.

I watched a woman in a grocery store three times pick up a carton of eggs and put it down.

This was a middle-class person.

You could tell by the way she was dressed.

Pocketbook, pocketbook, pocketbook.

David: I remember when you ran for mayor initially, you said I think someone needs to be a little radical.

Is it time for a radical New Jersey governor?

Ras: I don't think you can fight extremism with moderation.

That is for sure.

I think in New Jersey, we should have been doing these things anyway.

We continue to do the things now that we should have done before.

Obviously, what happens New Jersey cannot be based on what Donald Trump does.

We have to make New Jersey a proving ground for democratic values and issues, a place where we take care of immigrants, where women have opportunities to choose the health care that they want, that we make our economy inclusive for everybody in this state, that we give people a fighting chance to own homes, have a job, be in the middle class, that we can show people how to integrate school systems and make our schools great, how to not ban books.

These are things we can do in New Jersey to prove to the rest of the country that democratic values work.

I think people are moving away from that because they don't see the things that we are saying that actually work that we believe should happen.

We are just talking Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump.

The best way to beat our enemies is to prove them wrong and show the rest of the country that what we are doing in New Jersey actually works for working families in the state.

David: We should also say that there is a live audience, and you will hear from them on occasion.

Mayor, it was suggested by some that the Democratic Party needed to embrace its progressive side rather than pay it lip service like the Republicans have embraced the conservative side of their party.

Steve: Are you asking me a question?

[LAUGHTER] David: Yes.

Did you not understand it?

Steve: No, I did.

Every person has unique advocates.

From my standpoint, I've talked about transportation and housing for the last year and a half.

Nothing changes based on the presidential election, it is a reliable blue state.

The pundits would like to paint the picture it is purple, but in reality, if you look at the election results two weeks ago, they point to counties and say, it is trending red, but certain counties have a huge Muslim and Latino population, where unique aspects of the presidential election will not be true to the governor race next year.

I've got my core values.

I will not pull test what people would like to hear and change that.

I will continue to go down the road, being policy Center can tell you what we will change in New Jersey.

David: For the lack of enthusiasm demonstrated in certain counties, there is an indictment of the party policy position, etc.

Ras: It is.

Ultimately, the super wealthy in this state and country have lobbyists, accountants, bankers to look out for their interests.

Everybody also depends on a president or governor of the state, so when policies are made and issues are talked about, the people, we need to know that somebody is in the room that is going to say our name because you cannot create policy for people you don't see.

You cannot solve problems that you don't know I just.

If you don't know the woman who has to leave her 11-year-old home with a seven-year-old and four-year-old because she cannot afford childcare because it is more costly than her rent, or a family who is 1.5 months behind on their mortgage because they sent their kids to college and are waiting for their income tax to level up, if you don't know them, you cannot solve their problems.

So you make policies for folks who make $500,000 or more and everybody is struggling to make ends meet.

David: Let's talk about affordability, the main issue that everybody seems to talk about.

The old saying, everybody talks about the weather but nobody does anything about it.

How does a governor help with affordability?

Let's talk about the main affordability issue, which is probably housing with people paying up to half of their income for housing.

Mayor, how does a governor help to get more affordable housing to the market?

Is the current bill that was just passed in the legislature sufficient?

Sean: Listen, we have got to do something different, and that starts with electing someone who has a living experience like this new Jerseyans.

Part of the conversation as we are trying to claw our way into the governor's office and get a few minutes, we are talking to someone who is disconnected from our experiences.

That is the start point that is important because new talk about it from a personal experience, you talk about it as someone who had to fight to the challenges.

But it matters how you feel about it and that you know it because when you work to address it, it is personal.

I look at it, housing, it is a huge driver.

I'm proud to pass the first of her rent control.

That is a method to make sure people can afford to stay where they are at, but we have to add more stock.

But I think the state has to play a role, especially when we talk about affordable housing.

Let's partner with municipalities.

They have to meet obligations, but let's partner with them to build what is in line with immunities are looking for so we don't see the extreme pushback that we see in some places.

Once we build that stop, combined with other pieces that may or spreading place like affordable housing around rent control, we can build on that.

David: Senator, when you get towns in New Jersey pushing back, not just rhetorically, but using the legal system, you have more than a dozen towns who are suing.

What is the message from Governor Sweeney to them?

Stephen: First, I would like to address some of the progressive things we have done.

We have done minimum wage right within CPI.

We have done marriage equality.

Pay equity, on and on, so we have demonstrated over the years, New Jersey does value its core values, but as far as housing, this is enough.

In 1971, we needed affordable housing, and we need more housing.

I have listened to Mayor Baraka and I agree 100%.

We need affordable housing that brings the price of housing down and we need supply.

It is frustrating after Senator Singleton did that bill.

We all chaired it because he said finally got something good.

Now we have the same nonsense again.

David: What do you say to them is my question.

Stephen: You have to go back and fight them.

If we have to fight them again, we should not have to do it.

David, we are the most segregated school system in the nation because we go to school by ZIP Code.

David: Save that because I would like to get to that issue specifically.

Mayor, I see your reaction.

Ras: With the minimum wage now and market prices, you would pay 75% of your income on housing with the current minimum wage if you are making $15 an hour.

It is insane.

That is too low.

If you have a section eight voucher in New Jersey today, they have no place to live right now with a voucher in their hand that means they can afford to go into a place but there is not enough housing across the state.

200,000 units is the number they say, but I would argue that it is higher.

We have to build housing immediately, and we have to go to these communities, talk to mayors, local advocates, and begin to build housing now.

We need to do it today.

This is nothing that we can quibble and argue about.

We cannot go to court, we cannot spend 30 years in court.

We have to figure out how to execute this and get it done in the next years.

David: He makes a point.

Right now, there is no immediate term solution for this.

You cannot say of the 200,000 units by next year, we are going to have 10,000 of them.

I mean this is something that needs immediate attention, but there does not seem to be an immediate solution.

Steve: Is that a statement or question again?

David: Another question, you have to learn the cadence here.

Steve: There is a municipality in New Jersey that is more experience with building housing in the New Jersey city.

You can see it, feel it, you can see in the metrics of the economic backbone of New Jersey.

That means market rate and affordable housing.

We talk about regional solutions because you cannot just do it with Jersey City alone.

You have to have a regional conversation, and the state needs to be more involved with the carrot and stick approach.

If the state is conveying that housing is important more than rhetoric, you need to provide support for those municipalities that are fulfilling their obligation, whether it is schools, sewers.

More funding directly tied to that.

And that does not happen today.

What you end up getting is a similar situation to Milberg, were you have a counsel and administration there that is outright pushing back on the courts and saying we will not fulfill our obligation to.

And the courts need to set an example to other mayors and councils that if you do not do what you are supposed to do from a legal standpoint, that accountability matters and penalties will follow.

I think that does not exist today, so we have a lot of rhetoric around the building housing and a lot of talk about it, but if you are not really engaged using the levers of the carrot and stick, you will never get there.

David: You talked about a woman trying to buy or debating whether or not she could afford a dozen eggs.

How does a governor impact that, Mayor?

How do you do that?

How do you bring down the cost of one dozen eggs as governor?

Sean: I've been talking about affordability since the start of the campaign.

When we talk about housing, when we -- David: How do you bring down the cost of one dozen eggs?

Sean: It matters how much money you keep in your pocket so it is all connected.

When you talk about minimum wage, instead of spending on a dozen eggs or anything else, it matters how much you can keep for your family.

That something we have to look at and say work in government have the most positive effect in terms of supporting family to keep more and spend less.

There are things we can and cannot control better.

Housing and health care are big drivers.

Education, making sure that there is childcare, big cost.

Focus on all of those spaces.

There are other factors nationally that control inflation and other pieces, but there is a lot we can do here in New Jersey to make sure that New Jersey families can keep the dollars they earn.

David: Municipalities are required to provide affordable housing.

You would change that?

Ras: We do build affordable housing.

We have to build affordable housing.

It is necessary.

David: It is not required.

Ras: I would say as the mayor it is required because we have folks who cannot afford housing, so we have to build affordable housing.

We have been building it forever in our city and we will continue to do that.

I do not want to build housing in a sense we take away obligation from folks who should build it.

We should build housing because it is the right thing for us to continue to do, and use the leverage to make folks build the housing that they are supposed to build at the same time.

Stephen: David, I've been coming here a long time.

We have a panel with mayors.

Everyone comes up and says we need RCA's, right?

David: Tell people what that is.

Stephen: Regional contribution assessment or whatever it is.

It is taking your obligation dollars and sending it to new work -- Newark or other cities.

They never worked.

That was the solution, if.

you remember RCA's, and they would help the urban areas but it never worked.

So the frustration as the lack of acceptance that we need.

We are the most diverse state in the country, and our communities need to look like the state we live in.

Steve: You asked about whether Jersey City had an obligation.

I testified at the legislature last year saying that Jersey City does not have an obligation, Jersey City, Montclair, Hoboken, we should be included When you talk about the suburban towns that push back, saying they don't have the infrastructure, if Jersey City was part of the calculation a little bit more in the factor into that, we can alleviate the pressure on suburban towns when you look at the aggregate number, and we should.

Anything about the Singleton bill from last year referenced earlier, and it had a lot of flaws -- I testified on this.

We built more affordable housing in Jersey City than anybody in New Jersey and it is still a challenge because it is in original solution so we have familiarity with it.

There were a lot of obstacles.

David: He would like to challenge that, but let me move on.

Ras: The rent in Jersey City is about $2000.

Steve: You read the same stories about Newark.

Ras: 90% of the rent is about $2000.

That is affordable.

At the end of the day, we have to talk about what affordability means.

If you would like take the crown for building all the housing in New Jersey and the development that is going on in Jersey City is fine, but you also have to take the fact that Jersey City is probably one of the least affordable cities in the state of New Jersey.

Steve: I have got to chime in on that.

David: Really quick.

Steve: Every article Jersey City referenced as being unaffordable or affordability challenged, Newark is next to us, and it is referenced as being unaffordable in the same way.

Jersey City from the get-go has always been a place that we cannot solve the housing issue by ourselves.

If everybody in New Jersey is not pulling their weight, then you will have a supply conversation never solved.

We continue to say that.

If you think about what needs to happen, it is original solution.

If you look at the track record on building, we both more than anybody else.

We both more affordable than anybody else.

David: You said that, you disagree.

Let's move on.

I do not want to continue to talk about Trump, but New Jersey has been a sanctuary state.

It says that it supports immigrants' rights, etc.

Mayor Spiller, how far are you prepared to go as governor of New Jersey to fight mass deportation or will you?

Sean: As an immigrant, I say the first thing we have to do is we are talking about people here.

We are talking about folks.

We cannot talk about separating children from their parents.

David: What do you have to do?

Sean: We have to do everything we can.

We will not spend one dime of precious state dollars helping Trump's agenda in terms of crazy ideas.

When we talk about our immigrant community, we have to talk about millions of people who are related to some undocumented and what that means for the families.

I was on a zoom last week talking with over 1000 educators.

What does that mean when the kids are in your classroom and you get that knock on the door from the principal saying that their parents are not here and cannot take them home and have to Go to social services?

The impact it has -- David: What are you going to do?

Sean: We take every dime that we have got to support the resident's needs, tackling housing, health care, going after those issues and saying we will not have any of our law-enforcement or dollars going to support any of the things you are trying to do.

We are trying to protect our families, support, keep them together.

David: No police cooperation with immigration.

Stephen: David, immigration is a huge issue.

Clearly, nationally.

we have got to address it.

We have to address immigration.

You have people in Washington, Republicans and Democrats who came up with a solution, and you had a president who said I would rather have the issue than the solution.

I'm not for mass deportation of people.

It blows my mind.

This was such an important issue, and they decided to make it political for the campaign, and the campaign is over, so fix the thing.

Sean: Not many of those kids show up to school because they are worried and the impact that that has, the impact is huge.

Stephen: That's the point, these are human beings.

I don't mean to curse -- David: We always have that second delay for that reason.

Stephen: I'm passionate about this break this is wrong.

People would like to come to this country.

It is a nation of immigrants.

We have all come here from somewhere.

How about if we fix the process so people can come here illegally, raise their families, get great educations and move on in life.

David: That is not happening though, Mayor.

There is not a clear path to citizenship.

they are not making things easier for immigrants.

Your city and your city are both overwhelmingly propelled by immigrant communities.

Ras: Absolutely, and we have to do what we can to support.

Newark is a sanctuary city, and we have to protect our migrants and immigrants who are coming here.

We need to make sure that they are able to report abuse and crime that happens.

That they can register their kids for school.

Get immunizations like everyone else.

Or in our economy.

Outwardly and openly.

And we have to protect them from folks and extremists were going to come here and try to hunt them down and send them wherever they think they should go.

We are not just talking about criminals.

There are not one million migrants who are criminals in this country.

So we have to figure that out.

David: I would like to move on to New Jersey transit.

Which is a big issue, particularly up here in the north.

We saw Governor Murphy talk with the heads of Amtrak and New Jersey transit, and there seems to be a lot of emphasis on getting to and from New York.

Obviously, that is a big economic issue, but it is also our long waits for buses out of Penn Station, -- hour long waits for buses out of Penn Station.

Is it time for Kevin Corbett to go?

Ras: Somebody has got to go.

David: That was not an answer.

Ras: Him a, 3, 4, 5, 15 people -- I don't know.

At the end of the day, -- David: Why does someone have to go?

Ras: It is broken.

The system is not working.

Obviously, we are using capital funds to pay for operation costs.

It is not completely those folks' fault, but even when the governor tried to give folks a break, to give them a reprieve and allow people to get on the trains and buses for free, everything broke down.

This is a problem.

Some of it has to do with the budget.

Some of it has to do with the way we allow tax breaks to the wealthy and don't have a means to fund New Jersey transit.

And others is just simply how the institution is managed.

And that has to be changed.

Steve: I think you need wholesale change.

I think Governor Murphy is responsible for that, and I think that Governor Christie is responsible for that.

You have not had anybody seriously look at New Jersey transit change in 20 plus years.

They like to blame the federal government now and the Amtrak, but if it was the federal government and Amtrak, then the bus system would work perfectly.

The fact that it doesn't mean you are fundamentally talking about a New Jersey transit issue.

The Path system and how that integrates is a big system.

The funding formula that we pioneered a year and half ago that they adopted, big issue, and they should have done it better if it had done properly.

There are a lot of things the governor can change quickly in order to make the trains more reliable, people would like to use them, buses, as well.

David: I would like to move on from this, despite it being an important issue.

South Jersey, where you are from, Senator, probably has the worst NJ transit service.

Stephen: David, I appreciate you recognizing that we don't have mass transit.

We don't have it read I envy the north -- we don't have it.

I envy the north.

It drives the economy when you have it and it works well.

David: That would be something that Governor Sweeney would look into.

Stephen: Governor Sweeney would look for transportation in the North and South because we need both.

New Jersey transit is not operating well.

David: Does he have to go?

Stephen: He is going to go because there will be a new administration.

Sean: I think same thing.

We have to look at transportation as a comprehensive conversation.

We often talk about these silos where we say, let's look at our roads, we have to do expansions, then we sit, where is our money from New Jersey transit?

You have to look at it comprehensively.

Stephen: I have got to get back to one thing.

We too often pit certain sections of the state against each other.

You can do both.

You can put funding in to help support both sides.

We did it in 2016, the gas tax.

We put funding for the light rail, and we put funding for another light rail.

What normally happens on the train as we divide each other up to see who wins.

It is like a scrum.

It does not have to be that way.

David: What you are saying is you would like to help the North and South because Central Jersey does not exist.

[LAUGHTER] Stephen: And the central.

One state.

Steve: If you canceled the New Jersey Turnpike extension, that $11 billion boondocks, you could fund mass transit tomorrow in North Jersey, South Jersey, make our roads safer, the light rail in Gloucester and Bergen County.

These are commonsense things you could change.

David: A recent poll of New Jersey residents found that they approved of magnet schools and things like that to help alleviate segregation in the school systems and state, the same poll also found that those same people set our schools are not segregated.

Obviously, I'm going to assume that all of you think otherwise.

Let's start with you, Mayor.

You have the largest school system in the state.

How do you get that balance into a school system?

Ras: New Jersey is the sixth most aggregate of state and our nation.

David: We are number six.

Ras: At the end of the day, people don't believe lionize.

I would imagine -- lying eye I would imagines.

Schools are 70% African-American.

The schools are segregated.

This needs to be solved immediately.

Will magnet schools do that?

I think it begins to take people in that direction, but I don't think that is the answer.

We have to figure out a scene, all these other -- bussing, all these other issues, and you pull people out of the districts and those who cannot afford to get to the magnet school to be left in segregated schools by race and class.

Stephen: What we have been doing doesn't work, so we have to do something different.

I don't know, as the mayor said, is that the answer?

I'm not sure.

David: Would you move kids by bussing?

Stephen: That has been discussed over the years.

That is a hot button issue.

David: That is why I asked.

[LAUGHTER] Stephen: David, the point is we can make our schools more diverse.

We send them all by ZIP Code.

I will not force anybody onto the bus.

I would like to make our education system work and people would like to go to the schools, I do not resist them.

Public school choice is actually used to keep discrimination going forward.

I have seen it and places down in my district, where predominantly white districts go to predominantly African-American districts in high school, so they use public school choice so they don't go.

We have to fix the system.

David: Let me turn -- Sean: As an educator, let me say something on this.

David: I will give you a chance.

As president of the New Jersey education Association, millions of schoolteachers, why haven't you fixed this already?

Sean: [LAUGHTER] Appreciate that.

We are at every school, working as hard as we do.

I say that as a teacher, I wife is a language arts teacher, but you cannot separate this from a housing conversation and all the other pieces going on.

I say that as someone who leads a Justice Center union, you cannot just go to a school and say I wonder why it looks like that?

It looks like that because the community is segregated and look at the challenges we face.

When we talk about bussing, it is a good example, in Montclair, we have school choice where you do choose what school you would like to go to.

We incentivize to integrate the community.

You could do that in Jersey City to make sure that the communities are not as segregated as they are.

You look at the regional area and see how do we incentivize communities that are doing it right and well, make it better and give them additional dollars and resources.

You have to look at every single piece to make the difference because you are battling against some other pieces that are also in the state.

David: Mayor, I went to PS 37 downtown.

Even when I was a kid, I realized how diverse student body was.

Now if you go to certain schools downtown, it is probably 85% white kids.

That is because downtown, the demographics have changed, etc.

How do you address that when everybody would like home rule?

Steve: I think the bussing conversation is important, and I think the community conversation is relevant.

I think the senator has a bill on forced consolidation, and I think that is a helpful thing.

He talks about it from a tax standpoint, and I think a lot of people would see that cost reduction, but it would inevitably create more diversity with disaggregation issues.

David: And you need a strong leader who is prepared to say to folks who are against bussing for instance, or against magnet schools, you have got to be able to say, no and yes to certain things as governor and not be afraid to do it.

Stephen: We have been talking about school consolidation, and we work with them, and I remember the relationship -- And with that, we still work together.

David: Let's move on.

I have three minutes and I would like to get to a couple of other things budget wise.

We hear a lot about Stay NJ and the anchor program.

As the former Senate President, how the heck is the state going to afford to continue the anchor program?

Stephen: They are budget decisions.

It comes down to what you choose to spend.

David: How does the state afford those things?

Stephen: They're already doing the anchor program a couple of times.

The state can afford to do anything they would like.

It is choices on where you would like to spend the money.

If this is where we are going, they can afford it.

It is a choice.

It is that simple.

Ras: I actually agree with that.

They made a choice from 2010 to 2022 to give tax breaks to the super wealthy, which took $15 billion -- David: Who is that they?

Ras: The legislator, they is Democratic and Republican governors, together, they took the $2 billion out of our budget and gave it to the super wealthy, and now they have rated the affordable housing trust fund, the transportation trust fund, all of this is real.

So an anchor or estate in New Jersey program gives tax breaks to families who make $500,000 or more.

That is ridiculous.

We should not be talking about people in that tax bracket.

We should be talking about folks below that who are struggling to make a living in New Jersey.

One third of white families are struggling at 52% of African-American families are struggling in this state.

We cannot make policy for folks who are super wealthy.

We have to make policy for the majority of people in New Jersey.

David: Let me stop you there.

We are literally running out of time, but I would like to get a yes or no from all of you on this question.

Civilian complaint review boards with subpoena power is something the legislature has to handle.

Are you going to be out in front on that?

Sean: Yes, we have to have more countability.

David: Yes is your answer.

Steve: Yes.

Ras: Yes.

Stephen: Yes, but there are some concerns with the subpoena power.

That is all.

David: Go ahead.

Stephen: Listen, they could -- we are in New Jersey.

You can politicize anything, David.

David: You are worried about weaponizing -- Stephen: All I say as you can decide to go after somebody.

It would not be a shock to viewers in New Jersey if they decide you have an opponent that you don't like and you are going to use the powers of government to go after somebody.

Ras: They have been going after Black and brown people every day.

For some, disproportionately Black and brown people, but white folks are is cremated against in that way, sometimes, as well.

But Black and brown people for the most part in this country and state, the data shows that.

It is nothing that I made up.

Mad has no color.

Data has no color.

It is what it is.

David: Sean Spiller, Steve, Stephen Sweeney, Ras Baraka, thank you.

We are back with the Republicans in a minute.

Back now with our Republican candidates, just a note, of the four candidates, all of them were invited to participate.

Towards the end of last week, one of them said he could not make the schedule work, and then the other one said, well, if you will not be there, that I'm not going to be there.

I will let you figure out who those are.

I will welcome the two candidates who did find the time to join us.

And there is a former State Senator, and Jon Bramnick is a current state senator.

Thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

All right, let's start with the big thing and it sometimes divides Republicans in New Jersey, the election of Donald Trump.

Ed Durr, you are a big Donald Trump fan.

What is good for New Jersey in a Trump presidency?

Edward: I think everything.

I think you will see the economy change.

It will not happen overnight.

We did not get here overnight, so it will not be fixed overnight, but I think you will see a change in the attitude generally of the people.

People are going to feel more comfortable that the country is in a better position.

They will not be fearing so much.

I think Jersey can grow under a President Trump.

David: You are not so much a Trump fan.

Your whole campaign is based on not being a supporter of Donald Trump.

What is good for New Jersey?

Jon: It is not my whole campaign.

It sometimes immediately concentrates on that issue.

David: Don't start blaming the interview.

We are one minute into the issue.

Sen. Bramnick: he won and is the president.

If it does not work for New Jersey, I will not be with him, -- David: But what about a Trump presidency in New Jersey?

Sen. Bramnick: If you get back to deductions, that's a big deal.

If you talk about transportation, how badly do we need infrastructure changes?

I'm with him 100%.

But I'm never going to be a person.

I've been in the legislature 20 years as a Republican leader.

I will call wings out if them, and if it is great, I will be with him.

But I think that is what people in New Jersey would like, a governor who is a Republican balance, but they do not simply want to agree with what every Republican says.

David: He says there is more to him than being anti-Trump but is that a disqualifier because he isn't one?

Edward: I does not make him a Rino, but you did make a statement that you would not run if Trump won, so if you're going to be a man of your word, I would question that.

But you don't have to be a Trump supporter, you could be a non-Trump supporter.

This is a president who is requiring, if not -- David: This is a president who is not requiring, if not written loyalty, verbal loyalty.

Edward: Would you put someone in your administration who is not loyal to you?

David: I don't know.

Edward: I certainly would not -- David: Do you have to be loyal to the president in order to be a member?

Edward: I don't think he is asking you to violate the Constitution.

I think you would like to know that you will not hurt his agenda.

You would like people working with you and moving your agenda forward.

We elected, not just electorally elected, but the majority of the people, something that has not happened in a long time for a Republican president to have the majority of the nation vote him in as president.

And that is a clear mandate chosen, and he should have the ability to have people supporting him and move that agenda forward.

Jon: First, let me -- Sen. Bramnick: First, let me correct something.

Ed Durr was not at the college when I gave my speech, and what I said, was not if Trump won the general election, so if we are going to be factual, let's be factual.

bottom line is he is the president.

I learned early on, you support the president, but you don't agree 100%.

Whether you are Democrat or Republican, you don't agree with 100% of everything your party did.

And that is why we need a two-party system entrained.

David: Do you agree with the Senator that Donald Trump has a mandate?

Edward: -- Sen. Bramnick: I think the mandate was they were tired of the Democratic policies.

They did nothing about crime, the taxes went up.

David: Inflation is up -- Sen. Bramnick: A mandate, when you win, I'm an elected official, a mandate is you won, that does not mean you disregard everything you learned about what constituents would like.

They do not want Harris or the Biden policies.

They do not want inflation.

That does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you would like.

That is the concern.

People are still going to judge this president based on his decision-making.

David: With a state where probably one in four of our residents is an immigrant, you hear a president talking about mass deportations and creating an image of outdoor mass deportations sites.

Essentially prison camps.

This he have a mandate for that?

Edward: Illegal aliens he said, not immigrants, he said illegal aliens.

He is going after criminal illegal aliens who come here and to have committed horrible crimes, Lincoln Riley for one.

You are talking about people who have come to our country -- first of all, they are criminals when they come to our country illegally.

They are criminals.

Let's stop playing around with it.

If you break the law, you are a criminal.

That is the plain truth.

David: In your mind, somebody who comes into the country without authorization is -- Edward: They criminal.

It is in our Constitution.

They are a criminal.

It says illegal alien.

David: One in four of our residents are immigrants.

Do U.S. governor provide any protection for undocumented individuals who have been here in some cases 20 years and have had children here, etc.?

Sen. Bramnick: You know it is the federal government to has to create the laws -- I'm not in favor of sanctuary cities, and here is why.

The federal government makes the federal laws, to reject federal laws simply because you have a difference of opinion is not being a law and order candidate.

Now, we should immediately -- the federal government and Congress should immediately have a pathway to citizenship.

Because they have ignored that, now we have this question.

Biden's border policy was a miserable failure,.

period.

David: You would support using state, local police to support ICE Enforcement?

Edward: We would be in cooperation, unlike Governor Murphy right now who has made -- I would and that policy of sanctuary -- end the policy of Century state.

If we have an illegal alien, we will notify them.

Sen. Bramnick: The state of New Jersey must follow federal law.

If there was ever Stremme a federal entity to work with state officials, Dead to Me you follow the law.

You don't ignore the federal law.

David: Democrats say they will not.

Edward: Well then they are violating the law.

David: Let's move onto affordability because it is a big issue everybody talks about.

Let's talk about the big driver of affordability issues, which is housing cost.

The state has put an affordable housing bill out.

Towns have sued to stop it.

What is the responsibility of the state to provide and create environments for affordable housing?

Edward: First off, I think it is a bad law.

I don't think the state should have the ability to mandate something upon each town.

That is the town.

That is why they elect a mayor or council to run how they see fit.

You have certain laws that all citizens must follow, but Towns are ran by a mayor and council, so the state government should not be telling them that you have to put this many more houses in your town.

Sen. Bramnick: Do you think the state -- Edward: You work with them but you don't force it.

Sen. Bramnick: What if a city -- let's say Montclair because we had the mayor of Montclair, let's say they do not want to provide affordable housing and they would like to build market housing and have no responsibility to provide affordable housing for low income -- Edward: If that is what their elected officials decide, that is what the people decided.

David: Do they have a responsibility, the governors, mayors?

Edward: We have a responsibility to do what is best for our fellow man, but should it be a mandated law?

No, I don't believe in the law.

I disagree.

Sen. Bramnick: First, the Supreme Court is the one that made the decision about double housing, and that has been going on for 30 years.

But the state should do is exactly the opposite of what they are doing.

You don't say put 500 units in a Township.

They should divide the state into three areas.

Groups and county officials should sit down and say, where are going to put the housing?

Where can we put a lot of affordable housing?

Only 20, 10 or 15% or 20% are actually affordable.

You need to have more affordable housing, but you don't do it town by town.

Most officials, Democrat and Republican think that is a nightmare, higher litigation cost, and incredible strain on infrastructure, on the schools.

It is a very, very bad policy.

I would change it day one with the legislature.

David: Does the state have responsibility?

Sen. Bramnick: Of course, and it has been mandated by the Supreme Court over 3035 years, but we should take it back with a constitutional amendment, and the constitutional amendment should indicate what our responsibilities are on affordable housing, not leave it up to the courts.

David: Is it a crisis?

Sen. Bramnick: Absolutely, every young person in the state says they cannot stay.

David: Part of it is property taxes.

Edward: Because the state is unaffordable.

It doesn't matter how many units we build.

If the state are unaffordable, the houses are unaffordable.

That is the crisis.

Our state is unaffordable, plain and simple.

David: We had one Democratic been a toil candidate who launched this weekend said he will be your tax cutting governor.

How does a governor become a tax cutting governor?

Sen. Bramnick: Elect a Republican.

Edward: We agree on a lot.

Sen. Bramnick: The only thing the Democratic governor does not do is take out the veto pen.

If you don't get a Democratic governor to cross out the spending, what we call Christmas tree spending, if you don't get a Republican governor crossing that stuff out, you will never be cut taxes, and I don't know who that is, but there is no record of Democrats ever cutting taxes in New Jersey.

They are the party of raising the taxes.

David: How do you cut taxes?

Edward: You work on it with the people and look who is getting hurt the worst.

I think the common person is getting hurt worse.

I would like to see the sales tax reduced.

That's my plan.

I would like to see it at zero.

You know how many people we lose in sales to other states?

And it is all a symbiotic relationship to make things more affordable for people and put more money in people's pockets and they spend more, and if you make things more affordable, you bring businesses back.

That is no need to cut taxes, too.

Our corporate spending is outrageous.

We are the highest in our region, higher than everybody, and we are chasing businesses out.

Without businesses, there are no jobs.

No jobs, no people.

Sen. Bramnick: Only at election time.

All of a sudden, the Democrats by religion talk about cutting taxes, but as soon as they get elected, it is the same old, same old.

If you don't bring two parties down to Trenton, you will continue to have fun affordability.

David: The governor would say that they are addressing affordability with State NJ and the anchor program.

Sen. Bramnick: I love Stay NJ, in 2023, Democrat said we will lower your taxes by half in 2026.

That sounds like a movie, like we will promise you three years from now and there is another governor that we will cut your taxes in half.

Now I asked them on the floor of the legislature as a senator, I go, where's the money?

No response, silence, crickets.

It is a myth.

Edward: I don't know where the money is because they seem to be outrageous.

We are six years into Governor Murphy's tenure and he has $21 million above what Governor Christie was.

Where is money going?

What is he spending it on?

Christmas tree items.

It is ridiculous to continue to spend, spend, spend.

If you actually look into our budget, we are on a cliff.

We are ready to fall off, and if you don't elect the governor who was a Republican and willing to grab hold of the issue and take the hard hits, we are just going to keep getting worse.

We are going to be California.

You heard Governor Murphy say he would like us to be the California of the East.

We are going there.

David: That is a bad thing, and insult?

Edward: That is an insult.

Sen. Bramnick: I don't think people in New Jersey, which is a center state, that they would like to go the way California went.

There is no doubt in my mind that most people in Jersey, they will vote for Republican if it is the right Republican, but they would like a Republican who will call them the way they see them, and they will not simply be 100% partisan.

David: So you guys both, if you were to become governors, you would in those programs?

Edward: I did not say I would end the programs.

Sen. Bramnick: Give me the money.

David: So you like the government spending -- no, no, remember, -- Edward: This is the people's money, their taxes.

We will find a way to reduce their taxes.

That's the important thing.

David: But isn't that a tax rebates basically?

Sen. Bramnick: Nobody said we are against it.

Edward: It is their money.

David: But now you are using semantics.

Sen. Bramnick: We did not say we are against it.

We said where is the money in the meantime?

They are sending all this money to their specific friends, and they are not doing the big things.

They do the little things to help their partisan friends and that is one of the reasons we have an affordable crisis.

David: Let me move on to something that is related to affordability, New Jersey transit, which I think everybody on this stage will agree is not running to the optimum.

Is it time for there to be a leadership change at NJ transit?

Sen. Bramnick: 100%.

Most of the money you need to make major changes has to come from the federal government.

$300 million came in recently, a good start, but if you are going to change our transit system, it will take a boatload of federal money.

I'm pleased to see $300 million coming in because people are getting stuck on those rails all the time.

100%, I would never keep the president administration on New Jersey transit.

What I put a consumer person on the train?

Riding the train, that would be on the rails, calling our office.

David: Here's a great opportunity, Senator, if he became governor, you are a big supporter of the president, do you think that the President-elect is going to be good for New Jersey in terms of federal funding?

Edward: I think President Trump will have an ear for a more favorable.

David: Because he did not the first time around.

Edward: He was basically given roadblocks by Governor Murphy.

Governor Murphy made it clear he was anti-Trump.

You are going to listen to the people who are nice to you, and the people mean to you, you push them away.

David: But you are the president of the United States.

Edward: Let's be honest, people are people, and they are going to be who they are.

If someone is mean to you, you will be less reluctant to be cordial to them.

Sen. Bramnick: I have a plan, the first day when I'm governor -- I will go to Donald Trump, I will play defense minister, and he will let -- and I will let him win.

David: Zingers, now I have a comedian on my left.

Edward: Well, little better.

David: Here's another question that I asked the first panel.

There was a poll recently where most New Jersey residents said they would like to see magnet schools and other things like that as a remedy for segregation in our schools.

A, that same poll, the same respondents said that New Jersey schools were not segregated.

A, our New Jersey school segregated?

B, how do you address that issue?

Edward: I'm a school choice pro voter.

I believe in school choice.

David: Schools are segregated or no in New Jersey?

Edward: I honestly could not say.

I have never heard this theory.

I cannot say.

Our communities, individuals grow up together in communities, absolutely, so do those make schools more abundant in one race to another customer probably.

But this would be going back to school choice.

Allow the parent, if they don't feel their child is getting the education in that school, they have the ability to move their child to another school.

Sen. Bramnick: First of all -- the answer is the court made a decision already in the Latino network case that our schools are segregated.

Bottom line is, there was not much question as to if they were segregated.

The question now is it is in mediation under this court case as what to do with it.

Magnet schools would be a good idea, but what would be a bad idea, if you buy a house in Westfield, New Jersey, I do not want that elementary school student to be best 10 miles -- bussed away 10 miles because of a court decision.

I'm concerned that the Democrats are going to take that Latino network case and start busing kids all over a County.

David: In general or specific instances?

Sen. Bramnick: I'm against busing, if you buy a house next to an elementary school, and now the Supreme Court says, guess what, schools that are segregated, we are sending you 10 miles away, I'm against that.

Integrating the schools, magnet schools, and people who have a choice to go to the magnet schools and make those magnet schools -- David: In your mind, schools are segregated?

Sen. Bramnick: The court made the decision.

David: I'm asking you, not the court.

Sen. Bramnick: Of course they are segregated!

David: I know Republicans are here and Democrats are here -- Edward: I disagree with you.

David: That what?

Edward: That Republicans and Democrats are opposite on the environment we are just different on how to go about it.

David: So you believe that global climate change is a real thing.

Edward: Climate change is real.

It is a true thing.

We are coming out of a Little Ice Age ended in a warming period, it is proven facts with science.

David: Let me give you 10-seconds.

Sen. Bramnick: There is climate change, but the answer is New Jersey must also protect its industry so therefore you cannot go and then all of a sudden make New Jersey noncompetitive because you would like the nation to change its policies.

It has got to be a measured approach to what we do as leaders in New Jersey.

David: I have got to leave it there.

Ed Durr, John Bramnick, thank you for talking to us.

Thank you to Sean Spiller, Steve, Stephen Sweeney and Ras Baraka, and everybody here at the league of municipalities, Mike, Sara and his team.

Our production team and our live audience here for joining us.

[APPLAUSE] For all the crew here, I'm David Cruz.

Thank you for watching.

We will see when a couple of weeks.

Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey Education Association, making public schools great for every child.