>>> NOW FRESH OFF THE SUCCESS OF PUSHING THE FOREIGN AID BILL THROUGH THE SENATE, CHUCK SCHUMER HAS BEEN IN UKRAINE.

HE SAYS WITHOUT THE AID THE UKRAINIANS ARE FACING LOSSES FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME AND WARNS WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF THIS CONTINUES.

NOT JUST TO UKRAINE BUT ALSO TO THE WEST.

IT IS A WARNING ECHOED BY OUR NEXT GUEST, PENNY PRITZKER, THE FORMER COMMERCE SECRETARY HAD A LAST YEAR TOOK ON THE ROLE OF U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE'S ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT CONTINUED U.S. SUPPORT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY AND HOW TO REBUILD THIS NATION'S ECONOMY IN THE MIDDLE OF WAR.

>> THANKS.

PENNY PRITZKER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> I WANTED TO START BY ASKING, YOU HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH UKRAINE.

DO YOU MIND SHARING THAT?

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING.

MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS THE IMMIGRANT IN OUR FAMILY WHO CAME TO THE UNITED STATES 140 YEARS AGO FROM JUST OUTSIDE KYIV.

HIS FAMILY HAD A GRAN STORE THERE THAT WAS RANSACKED BY THE RUSSIANS.

THEIR LIVES WERE IN DANGER AND THEY WERE FORCED TO LEAVE AND COME TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND THERE HE WAS ABLE TO EDUCATE HIMSELF AND TO BUILD A BUSINESS AND GROW A FAMILY AND I'M A DESCENDANT OF HIS.

SO UKRAINE HAS ALWAYS HELD A VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART.

AND PARTICULARLY SEEING WHAT THE RUSSIANS ARE AGAIN DOING TO UKRAINE, IT STRIKES A CHORD WITH ME.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN SERVING AS U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE'S CHECK RECOVERY.

YOU BEGAN SERVING IN SEPTEMBER 2023.

I'M NOT SURE THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS POSITION EXISTS.

FOR THOSE WHO ARE JUST BECOMING AWARE OF THIS, WHAT ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES?

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN TASKED WITH DOING?

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN ASKED ME TO WORK ACROSS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, WITH OUR ALLIES, TO WORK WITH THE UKRAINIANS, WITH THE PRILT SECTOR, TO TRY TO HELP THEM, THE UKRAINIANS PLOT A PATH FORWARD FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF WHICH IS THAT YOU HAVE TO PURSUE ECONOMIC RECOVERY AT THE SAME TIME YOU'RE PURSUING THE WAR.

YOU CAN'T LET THE ECONOMY JUST FALL APART.

WHAT HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT THE UKRAINIANS, IS THEIR ECONOMY IS ALIVE, IT'S ACTIVE, IT IS RESILIENT.

THEIR GDP GREW 5% LAST YEAR.

INVESTMENT GREW 17%.

TAX REVENUES IN JANUARY WERE UP 25%.

AND INFLATION IS DOWN.

SO IT'S A VIBRANT PLACE.

60% OF THE COUNTRY HAS NOT BEEN TOUCHED BY WAR.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THAT FUNCTIONING AT THE SAME TIME AS THE COUNTRY IS PROSECUTING A FIGHT AGAINST PUTIN.

>> SO AFTER RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE IN FEBRUARY 2022, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, UKRAINE'S GDP SHANK BY 29%.

BUT AS YOU JUST TOLD US, IN 2023, THE GDP, GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, GREW ALMOST 5%.

I MEAN, OUTPERFORMING, ACTUALLY, IN THE FLISHL FORECASTS, SOME ECONOMIES THAT ARE NOT AT WAR.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> SOME OF IT IS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE.

FIRST OPENING UP THE BLACK SEA CORRIDOR AGAIN, REALLY, REALLY CRITICAL.

IF YOU REMEMBER LAST FALL, RUSSIA WALKED AWAY FROM THE BLACK SEA INITIATIVE WHICH WAS ALLOWING GRAIN TO GET TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

MUCH-NEEDED GRAIN OUT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

WE HAD TO GET THAT CORRIDOR, WE DEVELOPED A NEW CORRIDOR.

IT HAD TO GET UP AND OPERATING AGAIN.

THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO TAX REVENUE COMING IN TO THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT.

THE OTHER THING IS THE TECH SECTOR.

IT HAS GROWN OVER 7% OVER THE LAST 18 MONTHS OR SO.

THE UKRAINIAN TALENT, AND I HEAR IT FROM ALL KINDS OF MANUFACTURERS AND TECH COMPANIES.

IN FACT, I WAS WITH THE CEO OF BMW AND HE WAS TELLING ME, THE HARNESSES THAT RUN ARE ESSENTIAL TO RUNNING A BMW CAR ARE MADE IN WESTERN UKRAINE.

HE SAID I CANNOT FIND THAT SKILLED LABOR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

SO THERE'S A TALENT BASE THERE AND A RESILIENCE IN THE PEOPLE THAT IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU SEE IT ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND YOU CERTAINLY SEE IT IN MANUFACTURING OR IN AGRICULTURE.

AND IN OTHER PARTS OF THE ECONOMY.

>> WOULD YOU SAY A BIT MORE ABOUT UKRAINE'S ROLE IN THE WORLD ECONOMY?

PEOPLE ARE USED TO THINKING OF IT AS THE BREAD BASKET AS THAT PART OF WORLD.

COULD YOU SAY ABOUT WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS?

>> SURE.

FIRST OF ALL, MUCH OF UKRAINE'S GRAIN GOES TO THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO FEEDING AFRICA AND OTHER PARTS IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT ONE OF THE CAUSES OF MIGRATION AROUND THE WORLD IS LACK OF FOOD, THERE IS A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN THEIR ABILITY TO PRODUCE GRAIN AND GET IT TO THE REST OF THE MARKETPLACE AND OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE FACING THE WORLD AROUND MIGRATION AND REFUGEES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THE OTHER THING IS STEEL.

UKRAINE HAS AN ENORMOUS RESERVOIR OF RECYCLEABLE STEEL THAT CAN BE TURNED INTO NEW PRODUCTS.

ONE IN MODERN STEEL MAKING AS A RAW MATERIAL.

AND THEY HAVE THE LARGEST INVENTORY IN THE WORLD.

IT IS IMPORTANT THEY GET THEIR STEEL OUT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AS WELL.

ANOTHER FACTOR IS UKRAINE HAS INTEGRATED ITS ENERGY SYSTEM WITH EUROPE.

SO IT HAS THE CAPACITY TO CONTRIBUTE TO EUROPEAN ENERGY, WHICH IS REALLY CRITICAL, YOU KNOW, AS EUROPE HAS WEANED ITSELF OFF OF RUSSIAN GAS.

>> YOU'VE SAID THIS ISN'T JUST MORE MILITARY AGGRESSION.

IT IS ALSO AN ECONOMIC WAR.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

I GUESS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WONDERING WHAT THE MOTIVATION HAS REALLY BEEN.

IS IT THIS KIND OF MASSIVE EGO PROJECT OF THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT?

IT SORT OF FEEDS HIS KIND OF QUEST TO RESTORE THE GLORY OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE?

OR IS IT SORT OF, BRING UKRAINE TO ITS KNEES BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN ALL THESE WAYS IN WHICH RUSSIA HAS NOT?

LIKE, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S ABOUT?

>> I THINK IT IS ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU JUST LISTED.

I THINK THIS IS AN EGO PROJECT OF PUTIN AEFRLTS I THINK IT IS ABOUT RE-CREATING THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

I THINK THIS IS ABOUT TAUNTING THE WEST.

THIS IS ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S CREATION OF WHAT IS HIS PLACE IN HISTORY.

AND IT IS HORRIFIC.

JUST OR INCH.

I WANT TO FOCUS ON SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT.

RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK, THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE IS DESPERATE.

WE ARE FOOT-DRAGGING ON OUR MILITARY AND ECONOMIC AID.

WE ARE HELPING PUTIN RIGHT NOW BY NOT ARMING AND NOT SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

THE EUROPEANS HAVE PASSED ECONOMIC SUPPORT, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO SEND, OR THE MUNITIONS TO SEND TO UKRAINE.

WE DO.

THE FACT THAT WE'RE NOT DOING IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.

ONE CAN ARGUE, THIS IS ABOUT OUR OWN SECURITY.

THAT MAKES NO SENSE.

WE SHOULD BE DEFENDING UKRAINE BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO END UP WITH NATO IN A WAR WITH PUTIN WHICH WILL BRING ARTICLE 5 INTO PLAY.

WHAT ALSO DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME IS THE MONEY SPENT ON MILITARY EQUIPMENT BEING SENT TO UKRAINE IS ACTUALLY BEING SENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE SEND OUR OLDER VERSIONS OF EQUIPMENT AND EQUIPMENT TO THE UKRAINIANS.

THEY UPGRADE THEM AND WE PRODUCE NEW EQUIPMENT.

NEW BRADLEYS, NEW HOWITZERS, MADE IN MINNESOTA, MADE IN ALABAMA, MADE IN NEW JERSEY.

THAT INVENTORY GETS REPLENISHED AND THAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE DRAGGING OUR FEET.

IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME AT ALL.

>> HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO DISCUSS THIS WITH THE LAWMAKERS WHO ARE DRAGGING THEIR FEET?

ONE OF THEIR ARGUMENTS IS THAT UKRAINE IS NOT SHOWING SUFFICIENT SUCCESS ON THE BATTLE FIELD OF THAT THEY THINK IT WILL PAY OFF.

>> I THINK IT IS A MISPERCEPTION.

THEY'VE TAKEN 50% OF THEIR TERRITORY.

THEY'VE LIBERATED IT BACK FROM THE RUSSIANS.

315,000 RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED OR CAPTURED DURING THIS WAR.

THAT'S 87% OF THE SIZE OF THE RUSSIAN PRE-WAR ARMY.

TWO-THIRDS OF THE RUSSIAN MILITARY EQUIPMENT HAS BEEN DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

AND UKRAINE HAS GONE FROM HAVING NINE DRONE COMPANIES TO OVER 200, PRODUCING DRONES ON THEIR OWN.

WE'RE ALSO LEARNING WHAT IT IS TO PROSECUTE A DRONE WAR.

THAT IS THE WAR OF THE FUTURE.

I THINK IT IS A MISTAKE TO THINK THAT UKRAINE IS FAILING.

IT IS A MISTAKE TO THINK OUR DOLLARS AND OUR EQUIPMENT IS BEING WASTED.

>> THIS WEEK, KULEBA TOLD MY COLLEAGUE THAT UKRAINE IS EXPANDING ITS ABILITY TO MAKE WEAPONS AND LESS DEPENDENT ON OUTSIDE FUNDING.

IS THIS SOMETHING THE U.S. SHOULD BE SUPPORTING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MY EFFORT IS SUPPORTING.

WE'RE WORKING CLOSELY WITH OUR DEFENSE INDUSTRY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT TO EXTRADITE SOME OF THAT PRODUCTION CAPABILITY.

IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

UKRAINE USED TO BE A DEFENSE EXPORTED TO EUROPE PRIOR TO THE WAR.

IT WILL BE SO AGAIN AS EUROPE IS REARMING ITSELF.

NOW IT NEEDS THE PRODUCTION FOR ITS OWN DEFENSE.

AND FRANKLY, THEY'RE DEFENDING US.

THEY'RE DEFENDING EUROPE.

>> SO TELL ME WHAT ELSE YOU'RE WORKING ON.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER AVENUE THAT'S YOU'RE PURSUING AS PART OF THIS PROJECT AS U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE INTO AID AND RECOVERY.

>> THE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY THAT WE'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON ARE AROUND AGRICULTURE, HOW TO INCREASE PRODUCTION AND GET THE PRODUCT OUT TO THE WORLD MARKET WHICH NEEDS IT.

THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY, WHICH I'VE TALKED ABOUT.

THERE ARE VARIOUS PROJECTS THAT WE'RE WORKING ON.

MINERALS AND MINING AND STEEL, HELPING THEM GET THAT PRODUCTION UP AND OPERATING.

TECH, AS I'VE TALKED ABOUT.

ENORMOUS DEMAND FOR TECH.

AND THE INDIVIDUALS, AND THAT CAPABILITY.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, LOGISTICS AND TRANSPORTATION.

THE OTHER PART OF OUR WORK IS REALLY FOCUSED ON WHAT I CALL FOUNDATIONAL ISSUES.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TRUE BESIDES SECURITY IN ORDER FOR RECOVERY TO OCCUR, AND ALSO, TO MINIMIZE THE TIME FROM THE END.

WAR AND THE ECONOMY IS HITTING ITS FULL VELOCITY.

THOSE ARE THINGS LIKE INSURANCE, THINGS LIKE THE ABILITY, WHAT IS THE WORLD GOING TO DO ABOUT SEIZED RUSSIAN SOVEREIGN ASSETS.

WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT REFORMS WITHIN COUNTRY AND CORRUPTION?

THROUGHOUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND WITH OUR AMBASSADOR AND POST ON MAKING SURE THAT UKRAINE IS ADOPTING THE REFORMS NECESSARY.

NOT JUST TO TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES BUT TO BECOME PART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> AND ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS THERE, ONE OF THE IMPEDIMENTS THERE, IT HAS BEEN SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IS CORRUPTION.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THEY HAVE NOT ALLOWED UKRAINE TO JOIN.

THE FACT IS THAT RECONSTRUCTION EFFORTS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD HAVE NOT BEEN AS SUCCESSFUL AS OTHERS WOULD LIKE BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION.

I'M THINKING ABOUT IRAQ, ABOUT HEYDEN.

WHAT CAN YOU DO TO -- >> TO ENSURE THAT THAT HISTORY DOESN'T REPEAT ITSELF HERE.

>> THERE IS A LOT TO DO.

I BROUGHT THREE CEOs.

ONE FROM AN AG COMPANY, ONE FROM A FINANCIAL SERVICES COMPANY AND ONE FROM AN INSURANCE COMPANY.

WE SAT WITH ALL THE LEADERSHIP.

EVERY SINGLE PARTY WAS REPRESENTED.

AND THEY HEARD FROM THE CEOs WHAT IS COST IS AND WHAT THE IMPEDIMENTS ARE TO FURTHER INVESTMENT.

THEY ARE VERY MOTIVATED.

THEY ANTICIPATE PASSING SOMETHING LIKE 150 PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND HIS LEADERSHIP TEAM, THE PRIME MINISTER, THEY'RE VERY FOCUSED ON ADDRESSING, THEN, NOT JUST HAVING THE LAWS.

IT IS A CULTURAL CHANGE.

THE THING THAT GIVES ME HOPE, WHY THIS CAN BE DIFFERENT.

THE POLLING OF UKRAINIANS, WHICH IS EXTENSIVE, I THINK IT IS SPG LIKE 80 PLUS PERCENT WANT TO BE PART OF EUROPE THEM SEE THEMSELVES AS EUROPEANS.

THEY SEE THEMSELVES BEING ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE KIND OF ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT IS POSSIBLE IF THEIR.

THEY'RE PART OF THE E.U.

ENDS WHAT IS AT STAKE.

THE GOVERNMENT ALSO RECOGNIZES IN UKRAINE IF THEY DOME CLEAN UP THEIR ACT, THERE WON'T BE MORE FUNDING, THERE WON'T BE MORE SUPPORT FROM EUROPE, JAPAN, THE U.S. OR ANYONE ELSE.

EVERYBODY HAS WOKE 81 UP TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS A MUST-DO UNDERTAKING.

THEY'RE REALLY PUTTING THEIR SHOULDER TO THIS.

>> GOING BACK TO THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU HAD AS A MEMBER OF THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION, WHAT IS IT LIKE NOW?

ARE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY?

>> YES, THEY ARE.

I WILL SAY THE VOTE THAT OCCURRED IN THE SENATE, 70-29.

I THINK THAT'S A REFLECTION OF THE SUPPORT WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IT ALSO EXISTS IN THE HOUSE.

IF THE SPEAKER CAN GET THIS BILL TO THE FLOOR, HE CAN.

IT COULD HAPPEN TODAY, IT COULD HAPPEN TOMORROW.

THERE'S ENORMOUS PROGRESS THAT CAN'T BE MADE.

WHEN I TALK ABOUT NOT ONLY THE POTENTIAL AND THE WAR BUT ALSO ECONOMICALLY, THEY GET QUIETED EXCITED.

FOR VERY LITTLE DOLLARS WE CAN REALLY HELP JUMP START THEIR ECONOMY AND HELP THEM BECOME MORE SELF-SUFFICIENT.

I HAVE FOUND THAT RECEPTIVITY.

THERE IS A BIPARTISAN MAJORITY SUFFICIENT TO PASS THIS LEGISLATION.

AND IT NEEDS TO GET DONE.

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF WAITING SUCH THAT UKRAINE IS FORCED TO WITHDRAW.

THAT MAKES NO SENSE.

THEY WERE RATIONING AMMUNITIONS.

WHY?

THEY'RE DOING IT BECAUSE WE'RE NOT SUPPORTING THEM.

THAT'S TERRIBLE.

>> THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FOCUS ON THE MILITARY AID THAT THEY NEED.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WANTS THEM TO HAVE.

SOME MEMBERS IN THE HOUSE SEEM RELUCTANT TO GIVE.

WHAT IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

AND I'M FOCUSED ON YOUR ROLE.

WHAT IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

IS THERE A PLAN B?

>> IT HAS TO HAPPEN.

THERE CAN'T BE A PLAN B.

THERE IS MORE AT STAKE THAN JUST UKRAINE'S SOVEREIGNTY.

WHAT IS AT STAKE IS STABILITY IN THE WORLD.

PEOPLE NEED TO EMBRACE THAT.

OUR MEMBERS IN THE HOUSE UNDERSTAND IT.

I THINK THEY'RE BEING DRIVEN BY POLITICS.

AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED.

NOT JUST FOR YOU.

OUR CREDIBILITY IS ON THE LINE.

WE HAVE TOLD UKRAINIANS, WE HAVE TOLD THE WORLD THAT WE WILL STAND WITH UKRAINE.

NOW WE'RE WAFFLING?

IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.

>> MADAM SECRETARY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.