- For just the second time in the state's history, the Wyoming legislature has called itself into a special session.

I'm Craig Blumenshine from Wyoming PBS.

Next Tuesday through Thursday, the legislature will gather in Cheyenne with the intended purpose to address COVID-19 vaccine mandates.

Governor Gordon could have called a special session, but he chose not to.

We'll begin our program tonight with a conversation with Wyoming's chief executive, then we'll turn to both Republican and Democratic leaders of Wyoming's legislature.

Capitol outlook starts now.

- This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation, dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF railway service area.

Proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- It's my pleasure to welcome the governor of the state of Wyoming back to Capitol Outlook.

Governor Gordon, it's good to see you again.

- Good to see you, Craig, always a pleasure to have a chance to talk to you.

- Governor, we told our viewers at the start of the show, the focus of this special session coming up is to discuss COVID-19 vaccine mandates or at least what we expect to see in the form of rules.

That's the intended purpose.

You had the opportunity.

Governor, if you'd had wanted to, to call a special session.

You didn't, you had made it very clear that you have been working with your attorney general.

You are waiting to see what rules will be promulgated here, and you plan to work this thing through the courts.

Governor, the question is then is this special session premature in your view since rules have yet to be published?

- Well, Craig, a couple of ways to answer that.

First and foremost, I think the legislature is working their process.

It's in the constitution.

That process works and they're proceeding to a session.

In, in my view, of course I have the ability should I see a purpose to, to be able to call a special session.

And one of the big challenges with the mandates that Biden has announced and threatened.

And I think it's important to say that we have not seen the orders come from OSHA.

We haven't seen the orders come from CMS.

We, we fully anticipate those to come fairly quickly.

And as I've been very clear, I don't think it's proper for the federal government to have that kind of overreach.

And so we'll push back every way we can.

Our attorney general has been working with her colleagues across the nation and in, in making sure that we mount a strong and vigorous defense and, and in fact stay what those orders are.

They, they are absolutely unprecedented and in my mind, just absolutely wrong.

In my view, the legislature did not have a real role to play in that.

I think there's some preemptive pieces of legislation they're anticipating, but my biggest concern was let's see what we, what we see first, let's see what kinds of legislation can make a difference.

And, and, and once that's happened, as I said early, earlier this year, I would certainly call the legislature back in session.

I didn't see the reason to do that.

I've been working with the legislative leadership all along.

I have heard the request from legislators and from others around the coun-, well, around the state to do that.

But again, my, my reason was didn't have anything really specific that the legislature could weigh in on.

- Sure.

Governor, you made it clear, I think, in an op-ed that was published in Wyoming newspapers on Wednesday that you oppose government rules, mandating things.

And you've made that very clear throughout your first term here as governor.

But if I were a business owner and wanted to require for whatever reason my employees to have the COVID 19 vaccine, should I be able to do that in Wyoming?

- Yeah my view, Craig, is that business owners just like citizens should have the rights to be able to run their business as they see fit.

The legislature has passed laws along the way that that, that obviously help govern how those businesses can conduct their affairs.

They haven't weighed in on this one yet, but in, but in my view, what, what really concerns me here is we're stepping into requiring businesses to keep employees on the roles if they choose to disregard what the business wants their employees to do.

That's a really dangerous precedent.

And in, in my view, I think that we need to keep government overreach, whether it be federal or state overreach at bay, that is what our constitution was intended to do.

And, and, you know, really, quite frankly, I don't think we should replace one form of overreach with another form of overreach.

We should provide the best opportunities for businesses to conduct themselves.

- Governor, you know, one thing that's crossed my mind in this debate and it's certainly not just a Wyoming debate.

It's everywhere.

I checked the state department of health website earlier today, and of course you're well aware that Wyoming by its own state statutes require school kids, whether they're in private schools, daycares, religious schools, to have mandated vaccinations.

When you're visiting with constituents, where's the mesh there relative to COVID-19 vaccine requirements, and the fact that we are asking our kids today to get vaccines, we're requiring them?

Where's where's that discussion lead governor?

I bet you pad it here in the last few months.

- Yeah.

And that is a such a crash course.

I grew up at a time when vaccines were pretty ordinary and I'm glad that I gave my kids vaccines when they, when they needed them.

And when they were asked to, to have those vaccines, I'm glad that, you know, I took the polio vaccine.

I have friends a little bit older, but dealt with polio and found that to be a real challenge.

I think the issue here with this vaccine is that it's so new.

It was developed at warp speed.

And, and, and there is I think some concern that we don't really know the full play of what that vaccine, at least for some.

In my case, I've been vaccinated.

My family has been vaccinated and, and I feel that that's a proper thing to do.

But on the other hand, I also respect and it's in our constitution that citizens can make a lot of their own decisions on, on, on these matters.

I would say though, that we've, we, we have experienced a time up until recently, of relative relative safety from viruses.

We've been able to tackle most things like measles and mumps all along the way.

And that really has been from a vigorous vigorous vaccination program.

- Governor, I wanted just to give you an opportunity to discuss one other point, you made this also in the newspaper editorial, but I think it's important because I'm guessing a lot of people have asked you about it.

Why didn't you act like the Texas governor did when he issued executive orders that that, that helped his state along with his view that that vaccines should not be mandated in his state.

Why didn't you do the same thing?

- Well, Craig, the foremost reason is that the governor's executive orders abilities are much more extensive than mine.

He can issue executive orders that have all kinds of fine abilities, various enforcement mechanisms.

And he has those tools at his discretion.

In my view, thinking back to our founders and the constrictions they wanted to put on executive power, wisely.

Our legislature has not provided me with those same with those same tools, I guess, to enforce an EO.

So sort of just doing an EO as, as an expression of gee whiz, don't do that, seems really not particularly effective.

The, the governor of Texas, as I said, has those enforcement mechanisms I don't.

And so I think my view is the role of an executive order needs to be carefully considered and needs to be thought about within the context of government.

So my, my efforts so far have been for the most part, really designed around limiting our government's overreach, our government's interference in the private sector.

That's why I said, we're not going to have vaccine passports.

That's why I said the state's not going to require mandates.

So these, these are the things that I, that are within my capacity because they affect the executive branch.

- Governor.

Thank you very much for your time this evening in front of this special session.

I want to tell our viewers that we're going to get an opportunity to sit down with you in mid-December to reflect on the year, it's been quite a year, but also to look forward.

There's a budget session coming the state's way.

You'll you will have released your budget here in early December.

We'll get a chance to talk about what's ahead and I'm very much looking forward to that discussion.

And I know our viewers will as well.

So thank you very much for joining us in front of the special session tonight on Capitol Outlook.

- Well thank you, Craig.

And always a pleasure talking with you.

- We're gonna turn our attention now to the leadership of the Wyoming legislature.

First, the Republican leadership, and then the Democrats.

Stay with us.

And as we continue our discussion on the upcoming special session now in place for the Wyoming legislature, it's our pleasure to be joined by the majority floor leader, of the Wyoming house, Albert Sommers, and the vice president of the Wyoming Senate, Senator Larry Hicks.

Gentlemen, thank you for both pinch hitting tonight and joining us again on Capitol Outlook.

Appreciate that you're here.

- Thank you, Craig.

- This session of course has come out because a majority of both members of the House and Senate voted to have a special session narrowly focused on this issue of COVID-19 mandates.

First of all, did both of you vote to support this special session?

- Yeah, I'll, I'll start.

I, I voted for it and both Larry and I were on the, the original letter to the body asking them if they wanted to.

I think, you know, we had heard enough from our colleagues to know that there was an interest.

And certainly in the broader public, there was an interest on how we could push back, I think, against the federal overreach on, on vaccine mandates.

And, and so I, yes, I voted for it.

We sent the letter out originally, then when the 35% came in, the presiding officer sent that letter out.

And I think Larry and I both voted, voted for.

- Senator Hicks, you supported it as well.

- I did support it.

And for a lot of the same reasons that Representative summers just articulated.

- Why is it important to do it now in front of we, I mean, we hear say the governor even talked about this issue.

We haven't seen the rules yet.

We don't know how it's going to be asked to be mandated.

Why is it important to have this special session right now?

- Well, I'll take a shot at that.

- Well, I'll take a shot at that.

I know part of the thing that was driving a lot of these issues, but particularly when it deals with COVID and the healthcare issues, and one of the larger healthcare entities in Wyoming, one of our biggest fears, and you'll probably see in some of the legislation, we know that there, there, there could be a significant reduction of healthcare providers with some of these employer mandates that are being directed out there by these healthcare organizations, some of them in line with some of the federal guidelines.

And so I think some of us had a concern that if we don't address this now in a timely manner, we could lose a significant, maybe 20% of the healthcare professionals within the state of Wyoming, which further strains and complicates our capability to deal with any COVID increases and just the current level of activity we see within the state of Wyoming.

So there, there are some time sensitive issues that we're trying to deal with there, also.

- Why was it important for you Representative Sommers, to have the session right now?

- I think it's the same issue he said.

There was a, a major healthcare provider in Wyoming that had set up, you know, set out a vaccine mandate to, to be, to begin.

I think it was November 1st, or I can't remember the exact date, but I think it was that.

And I think the idea was to get this debate ahead of that, right.

I don't, we don't know where the debate's going to go, but I think we wanted to have the debate ahead of that deadline.

So we helped drive that policy, not just that provider.

- So correct me if I'm wrong.

But what I hear you saying is, is that you believe not only the federal government should not be allowed to have a COVID-19 vaccine mandate, but also a private company should not be able to ask its employees to succumb to a COVID-19 vaccine mandate.

Is that what I hear you're saying?

- Well, I'll take a stab at that.

And I think that would be a mis-characterization.

- Why, why am I not, not, not saying that correctly.

- So I think Craig, when you look at this, what we're trying to do is as well, I would say thinly thread, the needle to protect employers rights, but also inflect the individual's rights.

You know, we have article one, section 38 in our constitution that says any adult can choose their own healthcare choices.

And so what we're trying to do is find a solution that protects the integrity of the employers to set their employment policies, but not to the point that they compromise the individual's rights and liberties under our constitution and just their own conscience.

So well see coming up in the special session a bill that tries to do that.

Recognizes that there may be federal mandates out there, but there is some provisions the state can do as far as providing adequate number of exemptions and special cases.

And in some cases, maybe some financial assistance for testing equipment, but we, we also are, I think, extremely conscious of the impact of the individual's rights, both US and constitution on the state of Wyoming's constitution.

So it really comes down to a balancing act.

And that's what we're going to try to juggle, with part of this part of the workload that I anticipate we're going to take up next week.

- Representative Sommers I, if I were to look on the Legislative Service Offices website, right now, we're filming this late Wednesday evening.

I'm not going to find any bills yet.

They'll likely be out there Thursday, and they're there in time for people to maybe review the bills this weekend, but is that the correct way to legislate?

You're going to do it in a very quick amount of time.

I think that maybe is some criticism with those that might be talking about the special session with mirrored bills, et cetera, isn't the best way to do this?

What would you say to them?

- I'm not going to disagree with that Craig.

I think we're kind of under a time crunch to have this debate.

It is not the best way to conduct, to develop public policy by having bills too quickly and not having the public have an opportunity to review them in time, maybe, but we will have a public process.

We will have open committee meetings, we will debate these bills.

We, we all have email, text.

We're going to get comments from the public, you know, and so we will do our best.

Is it, is it optimal for public participation and public review of these bills?

No, it's not, in my opinion.

But, but we'll do the best we can to, to bring the public in and get that, that, get that input.

The debates going to happen.

You know, Larry, Larry talked about this, trying to thread the needle.

That's, that's what we're going to try to do.

But there is a real, I would say there's, there's a real break in our, in the legislature here on this issue of whether we should mess with a business's right to impose a health restriction on, on, on their employees.

And, and we're going to debate that.

Is that beyond our authority, you know?

Should, it's not beyond our authority, but should we be doing it?

We're going to have those debates.

It's not an easy answer.

This is not a slam dunk.

You know, this is, this is tough stuff, I think.

- Before we go complete this sentence for me, if you would: In the upcoming budget session, Wyomites should pay most attention to orthe closest attention to what?

What's on your mind?

What should, what should really be on your constituents mind?

Who wants to go first?

- I'll let.

- Yeah, and I don't think it'll be any different than Larry.

I'm a former appropriator and he's an appropriator.

It's pay attention to the budget and, and what we're going to do and how we, you know, whether oil rebounds.

We're going to be very fortunate in that the American Recovery Plan Act has provided Wyoming some money.

We're going to probably be looking at a Craig report.

That is a little better than it has been.

We're going to be able to decide if we want to make, you know, some, some long-term, you know, do we want to do some, some really big things for Wyomings future?

Not create programs, you know, I'm not the one that wants to create programs that are unsustainable, but do we have some one-time things that we can do, or pots that we can fill, or endowments that we can add to that can really move the needle or help Wyoming.

And so I think there's some real opportunity.

I want to focus on the opportunities we have ahead.

And I think there are some.

- Senator Hicks last word here before we move on to the Democrats here.

- Yeah.

And Craig, I think, you know, I've had a lot of discussions myself and Representative Sommers.

We're going to have an, an opportunity here.

There will be some surplus funds because we we've, we now run a $2.6 billion general fund budget off of a 3.4, 3.5 billion.

We've trimmed government back.

A lot of the fat's gone commodity prices, oil, natural gas due to a lot of, again, federal issues and stuff.

Some of those prices are going up, which may not necessarily be good for the families and the consumers in Wyoming, but it will be a short term economic benefit to the state of Wyoming.

You know, how do we make the best use of the one-time funnies funds?

My thought is, to the maximum extent possible, put those away in our permanent funds that pay for more than 20% of the cost to government on our K through 12 schools and our natural resources in the state of Wyoming, put those into our permanent funds that will have lasting legacy for the people of the state of Wyoming.

And I think we need to think about how we want to do that and where we want to make that investment.

- To both.

Thank you very much for your time tonight.

I know it's later than we had planned, but I appreciate always visiting with both of you and wish you, the best, best wishes in the upcoming special session.

Thank you for joining us tonight on Capitol Outlook.

Thank you, Craig.

We'll now turn to the leadership of the Democratic party here in the Wyoming legislature.

Stay with us.

As we continue our discussion on the upcoming special session of the Wyoming legislature.

It's my pleasure again, to be joined by the minority leadership of the Wyoming legislature, thats Senator Chris Rothfuss and Representative Cathy Connolly, both the minority floor leaders of their respective bodies.

To both of you, welcome back to Capitol Outlook.

- Hi Craig.

- Thanks Craig We continue our discussion here on the upcoming special session.

The impetus of course is President Biden's executive order that potentially will require folks to have vaccine mandates in companies of greater than a hundred employees, or at least be tested.

The Democratic caucus and you both oppose the idea of a special session.

Why?

- Go ahead, Cathy.

- Well, Craig, for several different reasons.

First of all, the federal orders aren't out yet, either the ones that would impact employers with a hundred or more individuals, as well as the CMS rules that would impact our health care facilities.

We don't know what those rules are.

So what kind of legislation are we going to be dealing with?

So you have to ask yourself the question.

I mean, just to start with, is this totally premature?

I think the answer has to be yes, but also then why?

What we understand is that we would have bills that would come up that would forbid employers from following the vaccine mandate, if it comes through.

And then what would that mean?

It would mean that our businesses were being put in the position of choosing between following federal law, which says do this or following state law, which says, don't do this.

That's a terrible position to put our businesses in.

So theres one.

But second, and probably the more important one is what's the purpose of the federal vaccine mandates?

And in all honesty, it's to keep our people, our communities, our nation safe.

And to me, that's the most important element.

Chris, what do you think?

- In, in addition to those two concepts, Craig, I think it's important to know that there's even discussion about forbidding businesses, private businesses from requiring vaccination.

And we we've seen some entities in Wyoming that have been interested in that and have implemented those policies, to much consternation and backlash.

But at the end of the day, it's in their business's interest to be healthy and to have healthy employees and a healthy workforce.

There was an article just last week saying that most of the nation's largest companies already voluntarily have put in place vaccine mandates because they want their workforce healthy.

They want the country healthy and they want the economy to get back running again.

And they understand that the vaccine is the best way to do that.

The idea that we would resist and that the state has continued to resist efforts to eliminate COVID-19 through sound science, through rational action and through appropriate response.

You know, it, it just shows that the state of Wyoming is, is not open for business and that we're more interested in grand standing and writing solutions.

- Let me push back gently with this concept.

I believe that if I were to pole Wyomingites on this issue as to whether they oppose or support President Biden's vaccine mandates, I'm guessing that the poll would say that most, a majority at least of Wyomingites would oppose those mandates.

First, am I wrong about that?

And second, if I'm not wrong, why not take a stance?

- Craig, Id be curious about that poll just to start with, because the data from last week indicates that over 50% of Wyomingites are vaccinated and three quarters of our senior citizens are as well meaning that people have chosen to be vaccinated, to protect themselves, to protect their families, to protect work.

So just, just to start right there, there, there's a big assumption out there that we're not hearing from the majority of people, honestly, who have made the choice to get vaccinated.

And what does that mean?

It means to me that the incredibly vocal minority is getting all the airwaves honestly.

Why don't we talk more about people who want to stay healthy and safe and protect their kids in their community?

Why aren't we hearing more from them honestly?

- And at the same time, really those that oppose it really, in my opinion, are, are the result of misinformation and disinformation campaigns that have propagated since the beginning of COVID 19.

There are still folks out there that believe that the vaccine is more dangerous than COVID itself.

That is truly absurd.

It's counter science.

There's a tremendous amount of evidence that indicates unquestionably that all health outcomes are improved by getting vaccinated, but that that's not mentioned by the leadership in Wyoming, even those that believe it quite honestly are still afraid to say it because they understand that the far right wing of the majority party is so concerned about this, that they don't want to put targets on their back.

So you either have disinformation and misinformation driving the campaign or you'll have silence.

So when you question how we are, where we are, we're here because of that lack of sound information, that's being propagated by the leadership of the state.

- Representative Connolly and Senator Rothfuss, it's been a pleasure, always appreciate your conversation here on Capitol Outlook.

So to you both thank you very much for joining us on Capitol Outlook.

- Thanks, Craig.

- Thanks Craig.

Always a pleasure.

- This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation, dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF railway service area.

Proud to support Wyoming PBS.