New Mexico In Focus
Spike in Migrant Deaths & Redrawn Congressional Map
Season 17 Episode 24 | 58m 15sVideo has Closed Captions
Two journalists speak about their yearlong investigation into a spike in migrant deaths.
Lauren Villagran of USA Today and Omar Ornelas of the El Paso Times, speak about their investigation into a spike in migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. The NM Supreme Court handed Republicans a defeat when the justices ruled that the state’s redrawn congressional map was constitutional. The lasting impact of a historic mining town and the two mining disasters that made headlines.
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New Mexico In Focus is a local public television program presented by NMPBS
New Mexico In Focus
Spike in Migrant Deaths & Redrawn Congressional Map
Season 17 Episode 24 | 58m 15sVideo has Closed Captions
Lauren Villagran of USA Today and Omar Ornelas of the El Paso Times, speak about their investigation into a spike in migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. The NM Supreme Court handed Republicans a defeat when the justices ruled that the state’s redrawn congressional map was constitutional. The lasting impact of a historic mining town and the two mining disasters that made headlines.
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>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, A SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS.
AS AUTHORITIES FIND MORE AND MORE BODIES NEAR THE SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO BORDER, JOURNALISTS LAUREN VILLAGRAN AND OMAR ORNALES TELL US HOW THEY'RE DOCUMENTING THE DEAD.
>> Lauren: PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE PROCESS OF MIGRATING ARE OFTEN WRITTEN OFF AS MIGRANTS AND NOT LOOKED AT AS WHOLE PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, HAVE LIVES AND FAMILIES AND DREAMS.
>> Lou: PLUS, CASE CLOSED.
WHAT TO EXPECT IN 2024 AFTER THE STATE SUPREME COURT ISSUED ITS FINAL SAY ON REDRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAPS.
NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.
>> Lou: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.
I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.
WE'RE LOOKING AHEAD TO WHAT'S SHAPING UP AS ANOTHER CLOSE CONGRESSIONAL RACE IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE STATE.
THAT'S AFTER LAST MONTH'S STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION UPHOLDING THE DEMOCRATIC DRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAP.
ALTHOUGH A DISTRICT COURT JUDGE FOUND DEMOCRATS TRIED TO STACK 2021'S MAP IN THEIR FAVOR, THEY DIDN'T GO TOO FAR.
IT'S AN INTERESTING LEGAL LINE, AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO WALK IT FOR YOU.
IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES, KUNM'S NASH JONES SITS DOWN WITH A SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE TO FRAME THE COURT'S DECISION AND LOOK AHEAD TO 2024.
THEN LATER IN THE SHOW, WE LOOK BACK ON THE LASTING IMPACT OF A HISTORIC MINING TOWN IN THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATE.
IN A LITTLE OVER 40 MINUTES, CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS INTERVIEWS AUTHOR NICK PAPPAS ABOUT DAWSON, NEW MEXICO, AND THE TWO MINING DISASTERS THAT DEVASTATED THE COMMUNITY AND MADE HEADLINES AROUND THE WORLD.
BUT WE BEGIN ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER WHERE AUTHORITIES ARE DISCOVERING A JARRING NUMBER OF PEOPLE, PRESUMABLY MIGRANTS COMING TO THE U.S., DEAD.
REPORTER LAUREN VILLAGRAN HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS FOR THE EL PASO TIMES.
THIS WEEK, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SPEAKS WITH VILLAGRAN AND PHOTOJOURNALIST OMAR ORNELAS ABOUT WHAT PUSHED THEM TO PURSUE THIS STORY AND WHAT THEY FOUND.
>> Jeff: AS WE JUST HEARD FROM LOU, READERS ARE FINALLY GETTING A LOOK AT THE FIRST FEW INSTALLMENTS OF YOUR SERIES ON MIGRANT DEATHS, AND THERE'S A LOT THAT I'D LIKE TO GET TO IN WHAT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH TIME.
YOU-ALL HAVE WORKED ON THESE STORIES FOR A YEAR, AND I'D LIKE TO REWIND THE CLOCK JUST A BIT.
OMAR, WHERE DID THE REPORTING BEGIN?
>> Omar: WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE INITIALLY RESPONDED TO THE FIRE ON THE 27th OF MARCH, IT WAS A MONDAY, LIKE ANY REGULAR DAY, AND SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES HERE IN JUAREZ HAD MENTIONED THAT THERE HAD BEEN A FIRE AND THERE MAY BE A POSSIBILITY OF TWO OR THREE DEATHS.
SO THAT SORT OF ALARM KIND OF GOT MY INTEREST AS A JOURNALIST, TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AS THE INFORMATION RELATIVELY WAS COMING IN.
SO WHEN WE CALLED FOR MORE INFORMATION, THEY SAID POSSIBLY SEVEN BODIES HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE BUILDING.
THAT BECAME A REAL CONCERN FOR ME, AND IMMEDIATELY, YOU KNOW, I HEADED DOWN TO THE MIGRANT DETENTION CENTER.
AS I ARRIVED, I MEAN, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, DRAMATIC IS THAT BY THE TIME I GOT THERE, WHICH WAS PROBABLY MAYBE 45 MINUTES INTO THE FIRE, THERE WAS PROBABLY ALREADY ABOUT 15 OR A DOZEN BODIES LAID IN THE FRONT AS THE FIRST RESPONDERS AND MILITARY WERE TAKING OUT THE BODIES.
AND THE WEEK BEFORE THAT, THERE HAD BEEN A GROUP OF MIGRANTS THAT HAD APPROACHED THE INTERNATIONAL DEL NORTE, ABOUT 500 PEOPLE.
AND SO WE HAD ALREADY SEEN ON THE STREETS THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING BOILING UP, THERE WAS SOMETHING DEFINITELY HAPPENING WITH THE DESPERATION OF THE MIGRANTS NOT BEING ABLE TO BE PROCESSED FOR ASYLUM.
WE HAD SEEN A LOT OF TENSION BETWEEN MIGRANTS AND THE CIVIC SOCIETY IN JUAREZ, AND THE RESPONSE TO IT WAS ONE OF TENSION.
AND ON THE 13th OF MARCH, JUST A COUPLE WEEKS BEFORE THE TRAGEDY, THE MAYOR OF JUAREZ, CRUZ PEREZ-CUELLAR, YOU KNOW, MADE A STATEMENT WHERE HE SAID THAT THE PATIENCE WAS RUNNING OUT.
>> Jeff: YOU MADE A MINI DOCUMENTARY FOR THE EL PASO TIMES THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW MY VIEWERS NOW.
BRIEFLY, CAN YOU TELL FOLKS WAS THEY'RE ABOUT TO SEE?
>> Omar: SURE.
SO IN THIS VIDEO, LAUREN AND I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT GUATEMALA, WITH SOME OF THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS THAT DIED AT THE MIGRANT DETENTION CENTER IN JUAREZ.
WE WERE ABLE TO MEET A FEW OF THE FAMILIES, AND ALSO SPEAK TO A LOCAL JOURNALIST WHO IS THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY INFORMED THE FAMILIES OF THIS MAYAN COMMUNITY OF WHAT HAD OCCURRED IN CUIDAD JUAREZ.
SO WE START THE VIDEO THROUGH HIS VOICE, AND IN THAT WAY TIE IT A LITTLE BIT TO WHAT WE REPORTED IN CUIDAD JUAREZ.
SO IT TELLS THE STORY OF THESE FAMILIES, OF THE DREAMS, OF THE PAIN, OF THE UNFORTUNATE ENDING FOR MANY OF THESE MEN, AND PARTICULARLY FOR THE FIVE MEN OF THIS REGION.
>> Jeff: OKAY, SO LET'S SEE THAT VIDEO NOW.
>> Jeff: LAUREN, WHAT DID YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT THE 40 MEN WHO DIED IN THAT FIRE, AND WHAT DID YOU WANT YOUR READERS TO KNOW ABOUT THEM?
>> Lauren: YES, JEFF.
WELL, YOU KNOW, AS WITH ANY MASS TRAGEDY, SUCH AS A MASS SHOOTING IN THE U.S., LIKE THE ONE THAT OCCURRED HERE IN EL PASO IN AUGUST OF 2019, WHEN YOU HAVE THIS LARGE NUMBER OF VICTIMS, THE FIRST THING WE ASK OURSELVES AS JOURNALISTS IS, WHO WERE THEY?
I'M AFRAID THAT OFTEN YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A PROCESS OF MIGRATING ARE OFTEN WRITTEN OFF AS MIGRANTS AND NOT LOOKED AT AS WHOLE PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, HAVE LIVES AND FAMILIES AND DREAMS THAT ARE LEFT BEHIND.
SO WE WANTED TO ASK, WHO WERE THE MEN WHO DIED, AND OF COURSE WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
THAT LED US TO FOLLOW THE BEGINNING OF COURT TESTIMONY IN MEXICAN FEDERAL COURT, AND ALSO TO START SEARCHING FOR THE MEN WHO DIED.
IN DOING THAT, I CAME ACROSS A REPORT IN A MAJOR GUATEMALAN NEWSPAPER THAT MAPPED THE 19 GUATEMALAN MEN, LIKE WHERE THEY WERE FROM.
AND I NOTICED THAT FIVE OF THE MEN WERE ALL FROM THE SAME STATE.
AND WHEN I STARTED TO MAKE THE INQUIRY AND REACHED OUT TO A LOCAL COMMUNITY JOURNALIST, ANTONIO CHOX, YOU KNOW, IT TURNED OUT THAT FIVE OF THE MEN WERE ACTUALLY FROM THE SAME COLLECTION OF VILLAGES NEAR A PLACE CALLED LA CEIBA.
AND SO WE WANTED TO GO DOWN AND FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THEM.
>> Jeff: ONCE THE STORY SORT OF MOVED BEYOND THAT TRAGEDY AND PIECING TOGETHER WHO THOSE PEOPLE WERE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE NUMBER OF MIGRANT DEATHS DURING THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU EXAMINED?
>> Lauren: SO THIS BEGAN AS A SINGULAR PROJECT AROUND THE FIRE AT THE JUAREZ DETENTION CENTER, BUT WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WAS THAT 2023 WAS GOING TO BECOME THE DEADLIEST YEAR AT THE EL PASO/JUAREZ BORDER AND IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO SINCE PUBLIC RECORDKEEPING BEGAN 25 YEARS AGO.
WE'RE TALKING, JEFF, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, A RECORD OF SIX PEOPLE DYING SIX YEARS AGO, ACCORDING TO BORDER PATROL STATISTICS, AND THIS SUMMER IT WAS 149.
THE VAST MAJORITY DIED IN THE DESERT AREAS RIGHT AROUND SUNLAND PARK AND DONA ANA COUNTY IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO.
SO IT BECAME CLEAR TO US THAT WHAT, YOU KNOW, MY COLLEAGUE OMAR WAS TALKING ABOUT, IN TERMS OF THE TENSIONS AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WERE FLOCKING TO JUAREZ AT THIS TIME EARLIER IN THE YEAR, THAT THAT CONTINUED THROUGH THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, AND IT JUST REALLY TOOK US BY SURPRISE.
IT TOOK IMMIGRANT ADVOCATES, AND IT EVEN TOOK THE BORDER PATROL BY SURPRISE, BECAUSE THIS REGION HAD REALLY NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.
>> Jeff: SO IN THE STORY THAT PUBLISHED YESTERDAY IN THE EL PASO TIMES, ONE OF THE CENTRAL CHARACTERS IN THAT PIECE OF REPORTING WAS A WOMAN NAMED LAURA MAE WILLIAMS OF THE OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR HERE IN NEW MEXICO, HERE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.
OMAR, I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU SAW, WHAT YOU DOCUMENTED IN THE COURSE OF SPENDING TIME WITH LAURA MAE IN THE FIELD.
WHAT WAS HER WORK LIKE?
>> Omar: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK LAURA MAE IS JUST A PHENOMENAL PERSON.
I THINK HER APPROACH TO HER WORK WAS JUST FROM A HUMANE PERSPECTIVE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED MOST FROM HER.
HER FOCUS WAS LIKE, THIS IS IT, THIS IS HUMANITY, THIS IS A HUMANE ISSUE.
HER MAIN OBJECTIVE WAS TO DIGNIFY THESE INDIVIDUALS.
MANY TIMES, WE NEVER FIND OUT WHO THEIR IDENTITY IS.
SO I THINK HER PROCESS, WITH THAT THOUGHT OF THINKING, HOW WOULD I LIKE TO BE TREATED OR MY LOVED ONES TO BE TREATED.
SO I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY KIND OF MOVED ME FROM HER WORK.
IT WAS OVERWHELMING, CERTAINLY IN OUR CONVERSATIONS, ABOUT HOW SHE WOULD SPEAK ABOUT -- WHERE SHE WOULDN'T STOP.
IT WOULD NOT STOP.
IT WAS JUST BODY AFTER BODY AFTER BODY IN THE DESERT, AND YET, YOU KNOW, SHE STILL REMAINS STEADFAST IN KEEPING HER MAIN OBJECTIVE, WHICH IS, AGAIN, TO GIVE SOME DIGNITY TO THESE TYPE OF DEATHS WHICH ARE CERTAINLY HORRIBLE.
>> Jeff: LAUREN, WHO WERE AMONG THE DEAD?
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM?
AND MAYBE AS IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DON'T YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM?
>> Lauren: RIGHT.
SO THE OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR, WHO LAURA MAE WILLIAMS WORKS FOR, IS THE FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR THAT GOES OUT ON THE SCENE TO PROCESS THE BODY, TRY TO IDENTIFY THE PERSON.
THE OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR IN NEW MEXICO IS TAKING REALLY A LEADERSHIP ROLE THIS YEAR IN CREATING A NEW BOX TO CHECK CALLED PROBABLE BORDER CROSSER, SO THEY CAN BEGIN TO TRACK AND IDENTIFY PROBABLE MIGRANTS WHO HAVE DIED.
THE MAJORITY, JEFF, WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
AND OMI, THAT OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR, IS DEALING WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY NUMBER OF UNIDENTIFIED BODIES THIS YEAR OF LIKELY MIGRANTS.
WE DO KNOW WHO SOME OF THEM ARE, THOUGH.
ANGELICA SALAS-MORALES, FROM GUATEMALA, HER REMAINS WERE FOUND SADLY NEAR SUNLAND PARK, NEW MEXICO.
WHILE THE DETECTIVES AND BORDER PATROL WERE INVESTIGATING HER DEATH AND HER BODY, THERE WAS A FANNY PACK NEAR HER AND A CELL PHONE INSIDE IT.
IT RANG, AND THE DETECTIVE ANSWERED IT, AND IT TURNED OUT IT WAS A FAMILY MEMBER FROM GUATEMALA WHO HELPED IDENTIFY HER.
I MEAN, IT'S DRAMATIC STORIES LIKE THAT.
THERE'S ANOTHER WOMAN, AMELIANA RUIZ-JUAREZ, WHO WAS STILL ALIVE WHEN BORDER PATROL FOUND HER UNCONSCIOUS IN A SUNLAND PARK NEIGHBORHOOD.
SOMEONE HAD REPORTED HER DEATH AND HAD TRIED TO GIVE HER WATER, BUT BELIEVED SHE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DYING.
I MEAN, WHAT'S BEEN REALLY DRAMATIC, JEFF, IS THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE DYING IN THE MIDDLE OF A VAST DESERT.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO MANAGED TO SCALE THE 30-FOOT BORDER FENCE AND BEGAN A TREK THAT IS REALLY NOT MORE THAN A MILE OR TWO MILES FROM THE BORDER FENCE INTO NEIGHBORHOODS, YOU KNOW, NEAR SCHOOLS OR A HIGHWAY, AND YET THEY WERE COLLAPSING AND DYING, MANY OF HEAT-RELATED ILLNESSES THROUGH THE SUMMER, AT A RATE OF LIKE OMAR MENTIONED OF SOMETIMES TWO OR THREE PER DAY.
NOW, ONE THING WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT MANY OF THESE MIGRANTS, JEFF, ARE BEING WALKED THROUGH THE DESERT ON THE MEXICAN SIDE, SOMETIMES FOR FIVE OR SIX HOURS.
THEY ARE ALREADY IN POOR CONDITION.
MANY ARE IN THE HANDS OF SMUGGLERS WHO MAY NOT HAVE FED THEM FOR DAYS.
THEY'RE NOT IN GOOD HEALTH OR IN GOOD CONDITION WHEN THEY FOUND THEMSELVES THIS SUMMER IN THE CHIHUAHUAN DESERT OF SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO WHEN TEMPERATURES WERE WELL OVER 100 DEGREES.
LAURA MAE WILLIAMS TAKES THE TEMPERATURE BOTH OF THE AIR AND THE GROUND WHEN SHE FINDS A BODY.
JEFF, HER THERMOMETER HIT A MAXIMUM OF 150 DEGREES.
THE SAND IN THAT AREA WAS 150 DEGREES.
YOU KNOW, SO THE BODY BEGINS TO SWEAT, IT BEGINS TO TRY TO COOL ITSELF OFF.
THE NORMAL HUMAN RESPONSE IS TO SEEK SHELTER OR SHADE.
IN THIS AREA, THERE IS NONE.
THERE'S MESQUITE, THERE'S CREOSOTE.
BUT AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A DESERT WHERE THE HEAT IS COMING UP FROM BELOW AND FROM ABOVE.
AND THE ORGANS BEGIN TO SHUT DOWN.
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT IT'S A HORRIBLE DEATH.
AND IN THE CASE OF MIGRANTS, MANY TIMES GROUPS WILL CONTINUE ON AND LEAVE A PERSON BEHIND, AND AT THAT POINT IT'S USUALLY TOO LATE.
>> Jeff: SO, I DON'T WANT TO DETAIL THE CONVERSATION OR DISTRACT FROM THE INCREDIBLE HUMAN STORIES THAT YOU-ALL HAVE DOCUMENTED BY VEERING INTO A BIG POLICY DISCUSSION, BUT WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED IN THE COURSE OF YOUR REPORTING ABOUT WHY WE ARE SEEING THIS HUGE SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS IN THE EL PASO SECTOR?
>> Omar: YOU KNOW, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, WHAT PUSHES THESE PEOPLE, AND CERTAINLY WHEN WE DISCUSSED THE PROJECT, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT POLICY.
AND WE TALKED ABOUT POLICY NOT JUST FROM THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO FOR MEXICO.
AND IN DOING THAT, WE SAW THAT AT LEAST REPORTING ON THE GROUND IN JUAREZ, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPTION.
PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPTION TO TURN THEMSELVES IN AT A PORT OF ENTRY OR ELSEWHERE.
THIS SO IT WAS JUST AN ACCUMULATION OF PEOPLE IN A CITY THAT WASN'T, IN MANY WAYS, WELCOMING THEM CAUSED MANY OF THEM TO RESORT TO THESE TYPE OF UNSAFE PASSAGES.
WE SAW DIRECT ATTEMPTS FROM MIGRANTS THAT HAD BECOME OBVIOUSLY DISILLUSIONED WITH THE OPPORTUNITIES TO COME IN AND SEEN THEM USING SOME OF THESE OTHER ALTERNATIVE ROUTES THAT ULTIMATELY COST THEM THEIR LIVES.
AND ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS, THIS CONTINUES.
IT HASN'T STOPPED.
HERE WE ARE AT THE END OF THE YEAR, AND JUST YESTERDAY WE HAD 1000 MIGRANTS THAT ARRIVED IN THE CITY OF JUAREZ AND CROSSED THE RIVER, PASSED THE CONCERTINA WIRE, AND THEY'RE BEING PROCESSED.
SO IT JUST CONTINUES.
IT HASN'T STOPPED.
AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, WE WILL LIKELY CONTINUE SEEING MIGRANTS DYING ALONG THE BORDER BETWEEN EL PASO AND CUIDAD JUAREZ.
>> Jeff: WHAT CAN READERS EXPECT AS THE SERIES CONTINUES?
I WON'T ASK YOU TO TIP YOUR HAND TOO MUCH, BUT WHAT ELSE CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU FOUND IN THIS YEAR OF REPORTING?
>> Lauren: WE'VE COVERED THE JUAREZ MIGRANT FIRE.
WE COVERED, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEMS THAT SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO IS SEEING IN THE SANTA THERESA AND SUNLAND PARK AREA OF DONA ANA COUNTY, AS WELL AS WHAT WATER MANAGERS WHO MANAGE THE WATERS OF THE RIO GRANDE HAVE HAD TO CONTEND WITH IN TERMS OF DROWNINGS IN THE RIVER, AND WE'LL ALSO SEE ADDITIONAL STORIES FROM ARIZONA WHERE WE HAVE COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE PUT TOGETHER STORIES THAT LOOK AT SOLUTIONS.
ARIZONA, AS YOU KNOW, HAS CONTENDED WITH MIGRANT DEATHS, A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF MIGRANT DEATHS, FOR ALMOST TWO DECADES AND HAS DEVELOPED A VARIETY OF, YOU KNOW, IF NOT SOLUTIONS TO MIGRATION AND, YOU KNOW, UNSAFE MIGRATION, CERTAINLY DIFFERENT WAYS OF TRACKING MIGRANT DEATHS, OF COMMUNICATING AND FINDING FAMILIES.
YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE DOESN'T END.
AND ONE THING THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO CONTINUE TO EVALUATE AND ANALYZE IS THE U.S.
DETERRENCE APPROACH AT THE BORDER.
WE'RE ABOUT 30 YEARS INTO DETERRENCE EFFORTS, AND I THINK THAT HOPEFULLY SOME OF OUR REPORTING IS GOING TO SHED LIGHT ON, YOU KNOW, ON BORDER POLICIES AS WE HEAD INTO AN ELECTION YEAR.
>> Jeff: THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR COMING ON MY SHOW THIS WEEK, AND THANKS A TON FOR THE CONTINUED WORK.
>> Omar: THANK YOU.
IT'S A PLEASURE, SO THANK YOU.
>> Lauren: THANKS, JEFF.
>> Lou: THANK YOU TO LAUREN AND OMAR FOR TAKING TIME TO SPEAK WITH US ABOUT THEIR WORK.
LAST MONTH, THE NEW MEXICO STATE SUPREME COURT HANDED REPUBLICANS A DEFEAT WHEN THE JUSTICES RULED THAT THE STATE'S REDRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAP WAS CONSTITUTIONAL.
THE CASE BEGAN IN EARLY 2022 WHEN THE GOP FILED A LAWSUIT ALLEGING STATE DEMOCRATS DREW NEW LINES FOR DISTRICT 2 IN A WAY THAT WEAKENED THE VOTING POWER OF RESIDENTS, MOSTLY IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO.
LAST OCTOBER, DISTRICT JUDGE FRED VAN SOELEN FOUND THAT DEMOCRATS INTENTIONALLY TRIED TO DILUTE REPUBLICAN VOTES IN DISTRICT 2, BUT THAT THOSE EFFORTS DID NOT "RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN EGREGIOUS GERRYMANDER."
THE STATE SUPREME COURT AGREED.
KUNM REPORTER NASH JONES HAS FOLLOWED THE INS AND OUTS OF THIS STORY SINCE IT BEGAN, AND THIS WEEK THEY HOST A TWO-PART ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION EXPLORING THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THE COURT'S DECISION AND HOW THIS IS ALREADY SHAPING THE STATE'S CONGRESSIONAL CONTESTS AND FUTURE REDISTRICTING EFFORTS.
>> NASH: THANKS LOU.
JOINING ME TODAY AT THE TABLE WE HAVE JUSTINE FOX-YOUNG, A REPUBLICAN FORMER STATE LEGISLATOR.
JUSTICE ED CHAVEZ, CHAIR OF THE CITIZEN REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE AND A FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE STATE SUPREME COURT.
AND DEDE FELDMAN, WHO SERVED AS A DEMOCRAT IN THE STATE SENATE AND NOW WORKS WITH COMMON CAUSE NEW MEXICO, A NONPARTISAN GROUP THAT ADVOCATED FOR THE NEW CONGRESSIONAL MAP.
THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.
SO, LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK TO OCTOBER.
THAT'S WHEN STATE DISTRICTS JUDGE FRED VAN SOELEN RULED THAT THE STATE'S CONGRESSIONAL MAP IS CONSTITUTIONAL, WHILE ALSO NOTING THAT DEMOCRATS DID INTENTIONALLY TRY TO DILUTE THE VOTES OF REPUBLICANS WHEN THEY ADJUSTED THE BOUNDARIES OF CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT 2.
FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T MEMORIZED THE MAP, THAT WOULD BE THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT.
STARTING THERE, JUSTINE, HOW CAN BOTH OF THOSE FINDINGS EXIST IN THE SAME BREATH, LEGALLY SPEAKING?
>> Justine: WELL, WITHOUT BORING EVERYBODY TO TEARS ON THE LAW, I THINK SINCE -- IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, IT'S BECOME VERY CLEAR THAT IT'S HARD TO BRING A PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING CLAIM.
AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAD REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE OF INTENT, PERCIPIENT EVIDENCE.
I MEAN, THEY HAD THE STATEMENTS MADE TO THE PRESS EARLY ON BY SPEAKER EGOFF, THEY HAD MIMI STEWART'S STATEMENTS ACROSS THE BOARD, TEXT MESSAGES, OTHER CONVERSATIONS, STATEMENTS MADE BETWEEN THE SENATE DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP AND REPRESENTATIVES OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WANTED TO SORT OF FATTEN UP THE NUMBERS FOR THAT DISTRICT AND TAKE IT UP TO, WHAT IS IT NOW, A 53, SO A SIX POINT SWING.
IT WAS SORT OF NOBODY I THINK EVEN DENIED THAT.
THE EVIDENCE WAS CLEAR.
THE QUESTION IS, CAN THAT BE OVERCOME?
YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE'LL GET INTO THE STANDARD, BUT WHAT REALLY IS AN ENTRENCHED INCUMBENT POSITION?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
I THINK THE JUDGE HAD HARD FACTS ON THE LAST ELECTION, DIFFICULT FACTS TO OVERCOME BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A TIGHT ELECTION BECAUSE IT WAS WITHIN 1%.
I THINK WE'LL SEE HOW BLUE THAT DISTRICT REALLY IS, YOU KNOW, ONE OR TWO CYCLES DOWN THE ROAD, BUT BY THEN THIS IS ALL KIND OF WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE.
SO IT'S A REALLY HARD CLAIM TO MAKE FOR LOTS OF KIND OF MUNDANE LEGAL REASONS.
MAYBE NOT MUNDANE TO JUSTICE CHAVEZ.
HE'S THE REAL BRAINS OF THE OPERATION.
BUT IT'S A HARD CLAIM FOR ANY LAWYER TO MAKE.
>> Nash: RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAST ELECTION IN 2022, THAT WAS THE FIRST ELECTION THAT THIS MAP WAS USED, THAT SAW REPRESENTATIVE GABE VASQUEZ OUST YVETTE HARRELL, THE THEN INCUMBENT, BY LESS THAN 1%; .7%.
>> Justine: AND I DON'T KNOW MR. VASQUEZ, BUT JUST AS A POLITICAL MATTER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT APPEAL AND SORT OF WHAT KIND OF CANDIDATE IS GOING TO APPEAL IN THAT DISTRICT, HE IS NOT A CANDIDATE YOU WOULD EXPECT TO PICK UP SWING VOTERS.
HE IS A CANDIDATE WHO I THINK EVEN BRIAN SANDEROFF SAID AT THE TRIAL, HE'S GOING TO HAVE PROBLEMS RUNNING ON HIS VOTING RECORD DOWN THE LINE, JUST BECAUSE HE IS DEFINITELY FAR LEFT OF CENTER IN THAT DISTRICT.
I THINK HAD JOE CERVANTES OR SOME OTHER CANDIDATE WITH A DIFFERENT COMPLEXION RUN, MIGHT HAVE WON BY 10,000 VOTES.
>> Nash: MEANING MORE MODERATE.
>> Justine: YES.
IT WOULDN'T TAKE MUCH.
I MEAN, HE'S PRETTY FAR OUT THERE FOR THE DISTRICT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THAT CONTEXT -- AND THIS WAS ALSO A PRETTY GOOD REPUBLICAN YEAR THAT TIGHTENED IT UP.
SO I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT MISLEADING.
WAS IT A .7% DIFFERENCE IN THE RACE?
I THINK IT'S A MISLEADING SPLIT.
YOU REALLY WILL SEE THAT IT'S QUITE A BLUE DISTRICT AND IT'S GOING TO BE EXTREMELY HARD TO WIN.
IS IT IMPOSSIBLE?
PROBABLY NOT.
LOOK, I RAN AS AN INCUMBENTS IN 2008 IN A LITTLE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS IN TOWN THAT WAS MAYBE A 52/48, AND I LOST.
IT WAS A HUGE YEAR FOR OBAMA AND IT WAS A LITTLE BIT UNPREDICTABLE.
IS IT WINNABLE?
WITH THE RIGHT CANDIDATES AND THE RIGHT YEAR, CAN A REPUBLICAN WIN THAT SEAT?
MAYBE, BUT IT'S SUCH A REACH.
>> Nash: YOU'RE TOUCHING ON THE IDEA OF HOW ENTRENCHED ARE THE DEMOCRATS IN THAT DISTRICT NOW, RIGHT, WHICH WAS A BIG QUESTION IN THE CASE.
TERMS LIKE ENTRENCHMENT, TERMS LIKE EGREGIOUS GERRYMANDERING, WHICH I BELIEVE YOU USED, THAT CAME UP A LOT.
AND REALLY WHAT THOSE ARE ABOUT IS HOW HARD IS IT FOR THE OTHER PARTY TO WIN THAT RACE.
JUSTICE CHAVEZ, WHERE DO THESE TERMS EVEN COME FROM?
AND ALSO, HOW DOES A JUDGE ASSESS THEM?
>> Ed: WELL, ACTUALLY, THAT'S THE POINT OF THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT OPINION IN RUCHO.
THEY BASICALLY SAID, LISTEN, PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING CAN BE CONSTITUTIONAL.
THE QUESTION IS, HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH?
AND THEY MAKE THE POINT THAT THERE'S NO REAL MANAGEABLE STANDARD, THAT THERE ARE ALL THESE INTANGIBLES THAT JUSTINE WAS TALKING ABOUT.
CAN THE CANDIDATE RAISE MONEY?
WHAT'S THEIR PERSONALITY?
ARE THEY CAMPAIGNING FOR THE JOB?
NONE OF THIS CAN BE MEASURED.
AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT NEW MEXICO, FRANKLY, IS WHEN IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THE VOTERS TURN OUT.
WHEN IT'S A GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION, THEY DON'T.
HISTORICALLY, IT'S BEEN LIKE 100,000 DROP-OFF.
LAST GO-ROUND, THERE WERE 230,000 FEWER VOTERS THAT VOTED.
SO THERE JUST WASN'T MUCH ENTHUSIASM, I GUESS, AS COMPARED TO PRIOR YEARS.
BUT HOW DO COURTS MEASURE THAT?
WE DO THAT, IN MY MIND, ALL THE TIME, EVEN WITH CIVIL LITIGATION.
THE REASONABLE PERSON STANDARD.
YOU KNOW, WE LEAVE THAT TO THE FACT FINDER TO DECIDE.
WHAT SHOCKS THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COURT, WE DEAL WITH THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES ALL THE TIME.
SO IN MY MIND, THE EGREGIOUSNESS STANDARD IS GOING TO BE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.
AND FRANKLY, WHEN THE DISTRICT COURT JUDGE DECIDED THAT THIS WAS NOT EGREGIOUS, I THINK THE SUPREME COURT DEFERRING, LOOKING AT THE CASE, WAS THEIR SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE JUDGE'S FINDINGS, AND IF THE JUDGE CONCLUDES, EVEN WITH ALL THOSE FINDINGS, THIS WAS NOT EGREGIOUS, THEY'RE GOING TO DEFER TO THE TRIAL JUDGE.
>> Nash: AND THE TRIAL JUDGE REALLY WAS FOCUSED ON THE RESULT OF THAT 2022 ELECTION AND HOW CLOSE IT WAS TO SAY, NO, THIS ISN'T ENTRENCHMENT, ENTRENCHMENT WOULD BE IF THE REPUBLICANS REALLY HAVE NO CHANCE OF WINNING A RACE, WHERE THE MAP DECIDES THE ELECTION, BASICALLY PREDETERMINES THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.
AND HE RULED, NO, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.
>> Justine: WHICH IS NOT UNREASONABLE.
I MEAN, IT'S THE DATA POINT HE HAD AND IT'S A REASONABLE PLACE TO GO LOOK.
BUT THERE IS ALL THIS OTHER CONTEXT THAT POLITICAL CONSULTANTS AND OTHER LOCAL FOLKS CAN UNPACK.
I THINK IT'S AN OPEN QUESTION WHETHER JUDGES ARE BEST SUITED TO DO THAT, WHETHER WE WANT OUR COURTS DOING THAT.
>> Nash: THIS CONVERSATION SO FAR, IT'S A LITTLE WONKY.
I MEAN, I THINK EVEN JUST THE WORD REDISTRICTING CAN HAVE SOME PEOPLE TUNING OUT.
SO DEDE, CAN YOU SPEAK A LITTLE BIT TO WHY NEW MEXICANS SHOULD CARE AT ALL THAT THERE IS A NEW MAP OR HOW IT WAS MADE?
>> Dede: WELL, I THINK THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING IS THAT EACH PERSON'S VOTE SHOULD COUNT EQUALLY, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE STANDARDS THAT WE DO HAVE THAT, YOU KNOW, JUSTICE CHAVEZ DEALT WITH IN THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE, THAT THE DISTRICTS SHOULD BE PROPORTIONALLY THE SAME POPULATION AND THEY SHOULDN'T VARY THAT MUCH.
AND THAT ANOTHER CONSIDERATION IS ALSO THE ETHNIC MAKE-UP.
WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THAT.
BUT THE ETHNIC MAKE-UP -- PARTISAN MAKE-UP IS ONE THING, ETHNIC MAKE-UP IS ANOTHER THING.
THERE ARE A LOT OF BALANCES THAT BOTH THE LEGISLATURE AND THE COURTS HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
THE RURAL-URBAN BALANCE, AS WELL.
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT -- >> Nash: BUT AS PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO KIND OF THESE FACTORS THAT MATTER IN REDISTRICTING, HOW DOES IT AFFECT THEM?
HOW DOES IT AFFECT THEIR LIFE, THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE, IF THEY'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, THAT'S TOO IN THE WEEDS FOR ME?
>> Dede: THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE A CANDIDATE OF THEIR CHOICE, SO THAT WHEN THEY GO INTO THE POLLING PLACE, THE DECISION HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN MADE BECAUSE OF THE PREPONDERANCE OF ONE PARTY IN THAT DISTRICT.
THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE SOME KIND OF A BALANCE.
>> Justine: AND I WOULD SAY THE ABILITY TO GET YOUR GOVERNMENT TO WORK FOR YOU ON THE BACK END, RIGHT.
YOU CAN ELECT THEM, AND THEN WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?
CHAVEZ COUNTY NOW IS SPLIT.
THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT REPRESENT CHAVES COUNTY.
ROSWELL IS SPLIT TWO WAYS NOW WITH THE NEW MAP.
THAT WILL AFFECT ACCOUNTABILITY OF THOSE LEGISLATORS.
>> Nash: WELL, YOU HAVE ONE REPRESENTATIVE IN YOUR AREA AND -- >> Justine: YEAH, AND YOU HAVE A BIG FUNDING PROJECT.
I MEAN, IT'S HARD TO EVEN DESCRIBE THE IMPLICATIONS, BUT THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST, THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT GEOGRAPHIC -- YOU WANT THE BEST GOVERNMENT POSSIBLE.
>> Nash: I THINK IT'S A GOOD POINT.
I DO WANT TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT FROM BEFORE THIS MAP HIT THE COURTS.
JUSTICE CHAVEZ, THE STATE CREATED THE CITIZEN REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE IN 2021, WHICH YOU CHAIRED, AFTER DECADES OF COURTS DRAWING THE MAPS FOR THE STATE.
THIS NEW MAP WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE RESULT OF A FAIR, MORE TRANSPARENT PROCESS.
WHY DID IT END UP IN COURT ANYWAY?
>> Ed: BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THE LEGISLATURE DID NOT ADOPT ANY OF THE MAPS THAT THE CRC WORKED WITH, AND FRANKLY NO REPUBLICAN VOTED FOR THAT MAP.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE THIS POLARIZATION, THAT LITIGATION IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT.
>> Justine: CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT, WHY NO REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED ANY OF THE PRODUCTS OF THE COMMISSION?
IT LOOKS LIKE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN, AT LEAST ALL OF THEM WOULD HAVE BEEN AT LEASE MARGINALLY BETTER FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAN WHAT CAME OUT.
>> Ed: ACTUALLY, ON THE HOUSE SIDE, I KNOW THERE WAS DISAGREEMENT AND THERE WERE EFFORTS TO CHANGE THE MAPS THAT THE CRC PROPOSED, BUT ULTIMATELY THE HOUSE ADOPTED WHOLESALE ONE OF THE MAPS THAT WAS RECOMMENDED BY THE CRC.
THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE SENATE.
THEY WERE UPSET BECAUSE WE PAIRED INCUMBENTS, AND THEY WANTED TO UNPAIR THE INCUMBENTS.
THAT'S ENTRENCHMENT.
>> Dede: THAT'S JOB ONE OF ANY DISTRICTING PLAN IN THE LEGISLATURE, IS INCUMBENT PROTECTION.
>> Ed: AND THEN ON THE CONGRESSIONAL SIDE, THEY CHOOSE ONE MAP THAT WAS SUBMITTED BY THE SENATE FOR CIVIC POLICY.
THAT ONE WAS APPROVED BY US 4-3, AS I RECALL.
AND SO THEY USED THAT AS A STARTING POINT, AND I KNOW THERE WERE AN EXCHANGE OF EMAILS AND WHATNOT.
SO I THINK THAT THE REPUBLICANS NEVER REALLY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE ON ANY OF THOSE MAPS.
AT LEAST THAT'S THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT.
>> Nash: THANK YOU ALL FOR THE DISCUSSION.
I APPRECIATE IT.
WE'RE GOING TO TAKE JUST A QUICK BREAK TO LOOK AHEAD IN THE SHOW, BUT WE'RE GOING TO BE RIGHT BACK HERE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION MEANS FOR THE 2024 ELECTION.
>> NICK: YOU KNOW, THIS COAL TOWN THAT HASN'T EXISTED FOR ALMOST THREE-QUARTERS OF A CENTURY, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE, THE DESCENDENTS, YOU KNOW, STILL HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS LOVE FOR THIS COMMUNITY AND FOR EACH OTHER.
AND IF THERE ARE ANY DOUBTS WHETHER I WAS GOING TO PURSUE ON BOOK ON THIS, I THINK THAT PUSHED ME OVER THE LINE ALMOST AS MUCH AS JUST TRYING TO WRITE A NARRATIVE HISTORY OF THE TOWN AND THE TWO DISASTERS.
>> Nash: WELCOME BACK.
SO, THE STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION MEANS THIS CONGRESSIONAL MAP WILL STAND UNTIL IT IS REDRAWN IN 2031 AND LAWMAKERS KIND OF ALREADY ARE LOOKING TOWARDS THAT DATE.
DURING THE LAST TWO LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS, LAWMAKERS PROPOSED ASKING VOTERS IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO CREATE AN INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.
THAT IDEA HASN'T GOTTEN TOO FAR IN THE LAST TWO SESSIONS, DESPITE PRETTY BROAD PUBLIC SUPPORT.
DEDE, THE COMMITTEE THAT JUSTICE CHAVEZ CHAIRED, THE CRC, ONLY HAD AN ADVISORY ROLE.
THEY DIDN'T DRAW THE MAPS THEMSELVES.
WHAT ARE THE ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION THAT ACTUALLY GETS TO DRAW THE MAPS RATHER THAN THE LAWMAKERS?
>> Dede: WELL, THERE IS A QUESTION OF WHO DO YOU WANT TO DRAW THE MAPS?
THAT IS THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING.
DO YOU WANT THE LEGISLATURE TO DRAW THE MAPS?
DO YOU WANT THE COURTS TO DRAW THE MAPS?
AND REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING IN THE LAST SEGMENT, THE COURTS HAVE DRAWN THE MAPS NOW IN THE PAST 30 YEARS.
AND/OR DO YOU WANT AN INDEPENDENT, A THROUGHLY INDEPENDENT, NONPARTISAN COMMISSION TO DRAW THE MAPS?
OF COURSE, THERE IS A QUESTION AS TO HOW TO SELECT THAT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.
BUT, THE ARGUMENTS ARE, IN TERMS OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION, IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE IS ALWAYS GOING TO FALL INTO THE TRAP OF HAVING THE MAJORITY PARTY DRAW THE MAP THAT THEY LIKE TO MAXIMIZE THEIR INFLUENCE AND THEY ARE ALWAYS GOING TO DRAW THE MAP TO PROTECT INCUMBENTS AND TO NOT PAIR INCUMBENTS.
>> Justine: BUT IN 2007 YOU STEPPED OUT IN SUPPORT OF AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WITH SENATOR MCSORLEY AND SENATOR ADAIR DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU WERE IN THE MAJORITY.
AND YOU SAW THE BENEFITS.
>> Dede: BECAUSE I THINK IT IS THE FAIR THING TO DO.
GETTING BACK TO THE IDEA OF MAKING SURE THAT EVERY PERSON'S VOTE COUNTS.
AND WE HAVE COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS.
SO WE DON'T HAVE THE GREAT PARTISAN DIVIDE THAT WE HAVE NOW.
BECAUSE, WHEN YOU HAVE A MAP WHERE THERE IS SAFE DISTRICTS AND SAFE DISTRICTS FOR 10 YEARS, THEN THOSE PEOPLE THAT RUN IN THOSE DISTRICTS DON'T APPEAL TO THE MIDDLE.
THEY APPEAL TO THE EXTREMES.
THE ONLY TIME THEY CAN BE TAKEN OUT IS IN A PRIMARY.
AND THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE.
SO, WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU HAVE A SHRINKING NUMBER OF SWING SEATS AND A MORE PARTISAN ACRIMONIOUS LEGISLATURE FOR THAT REASON.
>> Justine: WITH WORSE AND WORSE CANDIDATES.
I MEAN, THE LESS COMPETITIVE IT IS, THE WORSE PRODUCT YOU GET, JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE.
>> Nash: BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED TO APPEAL AS MUCH.
>> Justine: RIGHT.
>> Nash: THEY ARE GOING TO TRY TO INTRODUCE ANOTHER VERSION OF THIS JOINT RESOLUTION THIS COMING YEAR, NEXT MONTH.
IN THE 2024 SESSION.
JUSTICE CHAVEZ, WHAT WILL THAT EFFORT LOOK LIKE THIS TIME AROUND AND CAN WE EXPECT ANY KIND OF DIFFERENT RESULT?
REALLY IT HASN'T GOTTEN OUT OF COMMITTEE.
>> Ed: IT HAS NOT GOTTEN OUT OF COMMITTEE BUT THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN THE PREVIOUS EFFORTS.
THE CRC, I THINK, IT DID GOOD WORK, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS HOW THE MEMBERS WERE SELECTED WAS ALL WRONG.
THEN ALLOWING, I THINK, THE LEGISLATURE AT END NOT TO JUST CHOOSE AMONG THE MAPS BUT COULD DO THEIR OWN THING WAS ALSO A MISTAKE AND CRITICIZED.
WHAT WE WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY NOW IS IT WOULD BE A NINE MEMBER, THREE DEMOCRATS, THREE REPUBLICANS, THREE WHO ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH EITHER THE DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THE SELECTION PROCESS IS A LITTLE BIT ELABORATE.
WE WOULD HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO WOULD PUBLISH APPLICATIONS, SOLICIT APPLICATIONS, REVIEW APPLICATIONS, AND THEN WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF A DEMOGRAPHER AND STATISTICS WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND GEOGRAPHICS OF OUR STATE AND MAKE THE SELECTIONS.
WE THINK THAT PROCESS IS GOING TO ALLOW US TO HAVE ACROSS-THE-BOARD REPRESENTATION.
WE ONLY HAD ONE FEMALE ON THE COMMITTEE.
ALL OF US WERE BASICALLY FRO ALBUQUERQUE WITH ONE FROM -- >> Nash: NO INDIGENOUS REPRESENTATION.
>> Ed: NO INDIGENOUS REPRESENTATION.
THREE APPLICANTS, BUT THEY WERE NOT SELECTED.
WE DEFINITELY WANT TO SEE IF THAT CAN HAPPEN AND SO THIS WOULD BE THE PROCESS.
THEN THE SECRETARY OF STATE WOULD VET THE APPLICATIONS, RANDOMLY SELECT 120 IN A LIVE SHOWING WITH SOMEBODY THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED WITH.
THEY WOULD SEND THAT THEN TO LEADERSHIP.
THEY WOULD EACH GET THREE STRIKES, BASICALLY.
WE DON'T WANT THIS PERSON.
AND THEN WE GO BACK TO THE SECRETARY WHO THEN RANDOMLY SELECTS SIX MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION.
THOSE SIX MEMBERS WOULD THEN LOOK AT THE APPLICATION THINKING ABOUT THE GEOGRAPHY AND DEMOGRAPHICS OF OUR STATE AND TRY TO BALANCE THAT COMMISSION BY SELECTING THE REMAINING THREE.
>> NASH: IT IS AN INVOLVED VETTING PROCESS.
>> Ed: IT IS AN INVOLVED VETTING PROCESS BUT I THINK IT MAXIMIZES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THERE TO BE REPRESENTATION FROM THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND ALSO -- >> Nash: LET ME RESPOND TO YOU THE FEEDBACK FROM LAWMAKERS THAT THEY WANT A SAY IN WHO SITS ON THIS COMMISSION, OR THEY WANT TO BE THE FOLKS THAT DRAW THE MAP, BECAUSE IT IS A SMALL BIT OF THE POWER THEY DO HAVE.
>> Ed: IT GIVES THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO AT LEAST STRIKE SOME OF WHAT THEY THINK WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE COMMISSION.
>> Dede: THIS IS A TRULY UNIQUE SUGGESTION TO HAVE A RANDOMLY SELECTED COMMISSION.
>> Justine: GO THROUGH THE PHONE BOOK, RIGHT?
YOU MIGHT DO BETTER -- >> Ed: QUALIFICATIONS AND DISQUALIFICATIONS.
>> Justine: I APPRECIATE YOUR HARD WORK ON THIS.
>> Nash: LET'S SAY 2031 COMES AROUND WHEN THE MAP IS GOING TO BE REDRAWN AGAIN AND THE LAWMAKERS ARE STILL DRAWING IT, RIGHT?
THAT WOULD BE THAT THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION NEVER CAME TO BE IN 2031.
JUSTINE, IF THAT IS THE CASE, DID THIS YEARS SUPREME COURT RULING KIND OF BASICALLY DRAW A ROAD MAP FOR GERRYMANDERING JUST ENOUGH, WITHOUT ALSO GETTING BUSTED.
>> Justine: IT DID, YEAH, AND I THINK THE REPUBLICANS MADE SOME BAD LAW AND MAYBE THEY WOULD DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD TO WORK WITH WHAT THEY HAD TO WORK WITH IN THE COURTS.
IT IS SUCH A COMPLICATED ISSUE AND I MEAN JUSTICE CHAVEZ GETS AT TWO OF THE MAIN FACTORS.
YOU WANT EXPERTISE BUT YOU ALSO WANT REPRESENTATION.
AND I WILL SAY, NASH, WE DO REDISTRICTING STATE-WIDE IN CITIES, SCHOOL BOARDS, COUNTIES, KIND OF IN THE SHADOWS AND IT IS DONE PRETTY WELL.
THIS IS A PROCESS THAT IT IS NOT REALLY THAT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU TAKE THE DATA AND GO DO IT, BUT ONCE YOU REALLY HAVE REPRESENTATION, EVERYBODY HAS GOT A DIFFERENT VIEWPOINT, A DIFFERENT MOTIVE AND THAT IS HOW WE WANT THE PROCESS TO WORK.
THAT IS WHY THE FEDERAL COURT SAYS THESE CLAIMS AREN'T JUDICIABLE IN FEDERAL COURT, WE DON'T, IN ESSENCE, IN SOME CASES WANT THE COURTS DECIDING.
THIS SHOULD BE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY PLAYING OUT.
BUT IT BECOMES VERY HARD WHEN YOU LOOK AT A STATE LIKE NEW MEXICO WHERE YOU HAVE SO MUCH VARIATION, GEOGRAPHICALLY, URBAN, RURAL, RACIALLY, SOCIOECONOMICALLY, ET CETERA, TO ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THAT IN A COMMISSION OR TO ACCOUNT FOR ALL THAT ACROSS THE SUPREME COURT.
SO, WE ARE STRUGGLING WITH THAT.
BUT I DO THINK IT IS A PRECEDENT THAT IS HARD TO GET AROUND.
DEDE RAISED AN ISSUE OF RACE AND RACE DID NOT -- WAS NOT REALLY INTERJECTED INTO THIS LAWSUIT.
I WASN'T IN IT BUT NOT PUBLICLY.
THERE WERE SOME COMMENTS MADE, OKAY, ABOUT THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT 2 IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS ABOUT MAKING THAT DISTRICT MUCH MORE HISPANIC AND I THINK THE REPUBLICANS COULD HAVE SEIZED ON THAT AND SAID, WE ARE GOING TO BRING A DIFFERENT KIND OF CLAIM AND I THINK THAT, TO GET BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THAT IS KIND OF WHERE THIS IS GOING TO DRIVE US.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SUCCESS ON REDISTRICTING SUITS, IT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE -- YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THERE ON GERRYMANDERING.
YOU HAVE GOT TO LOOK AT THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF IT.
>> Nash: IF THAT IS POTENTIAL REPUBLICAN STRATEGY FOR THIS SUIT AND THEY DIDN'T GO THAT WAY, I DO WANT TO KIND OF STICK ON THAT IN TERMS OF THIS UPCOMING ELECTION NEXT YEAR.
DO REPUBLICANS NEED TO CHANGE THEIR STRATEGY IN ORDER TO RESPOND TO A MAP THAT NOW LEANS DEMOCRATIC?
>> Justine: I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BUT I THINK NATIONWIDE YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE GOING BACK TO LOOK AT THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE ROOM TO ARGUE IN THE COURTS AND MORE LIKE SUCCESS.
IN THIS CASE, MIMI STEWART, HAS SAID ON THE FLOOR, WE ARE TAKING THIS DISTRICT FROM A 50.6% HISPANIC DISTRICT TO 54 TO 56 AND THAT IS PART OF OUR GOAL.
OKAY, WELL THAT MAY BE ENOUGH TO GET STARTED WITH A LAWSUIT.
I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T TAKE IT THAT DIRECTION, BUT, YEAH, I WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THAT.
>> Dede: THAT WAS ONE OF THE CRITERIA THAT YOUR COMMITTEE WAS ALLOWED TO CONSIDER, THE MAKEUP OF DISTRICTS AND I THINK THAT IS A VALID CRITERIA.
>> Justine: AND I DON'T DISAGREE.
>> DEDE: THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING IS A STATE AFFAIR.
BUT, RACIAL GERRYMANDERING IS A FEDERAL AFFAIR.
>> Justine: TO THE EXTENT IT BECOMES EXCLUSIVE, RIGHT?
>> Nash: I APPRECIATE THE ROBUST CONVERSATION HERE.
DEDE FELDMAN, FORMER JUSTICE ED CHAVEZ AND FORMER REPRESENTATIVE JUSTINE FOX YOUNG, THANK YOU ALL FOR SITTING AROUND THE TABLE TODAY.
>> Lou: THANKS TO NASH JONES FOR THE YEARS OF REPORTING THAT IT TOOK TO PREPARE FOR THAT ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION.
YOU CAN LISTEN TO NASH AS LOCAL HOST OF NPR'S ALL THINGS CONSIDERED MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY FROM 5:00 TO 7:00 P.M. ON KUNM RADIO.
TONIGHT WE ARE LOOKING BACK AT THE HISTORY OF WHAT HAS BECOME A GHOST TO IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE STATE, DAWSON, NEW MEXICO.
MORE THAN 100 YEARS AGO DAWSON FLOURISHED AS A COAL TOWN BUT TWO DEVASTATING MINING DISASTERS, 10 YEARS APART, KILLED 400 MINERS AND IRREPARABLY SCARED THE COMMUNITY.
DAWSON HAS INTRIGUED AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST NICK PAPPAS FOR YEARS.
THIS WEEK, HE SPEAKS WITH CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK LOOKING BACK AT DAWSON AND ITS LINGERING IMPACT.
>> Russell: NICK, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE.
>> Nick: THANK YOU, RUSSELL.
AND I WANT TO THANK NEW MEXICO INFOCUS FOR HAVING ME TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY BOOK AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY TO SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS FASCINATING GARDEN PIECE OF NEW MEXICO HISTORY.
>> Russell: NOW YOUR BOOK IS CALLED, CROSSES OF IRON, THE TRAGIC STORY OF DAWSON, NEW MEXICO AND ITS TWIN MINING DISASTERS.
FIRST OFF, TELL ME WHAT WAS DAWSON, NEW MEXICO?
WHO LIVED THERE?
>> Nick: DAWSON WAS A COMPANY TOWN RUN BY PHELPS DODGE AND COMPANY FIRST IN 1905 AND RAN UNTIL 1950.
PHELPS DODGE WAS AN IMPORT EXPORT COMPANY BASED IN NEW YORK THAT GOT INTO THE COPPER MINING BUSINESS IN ARIZONA.
AND NEEDED A STEADY SUPPLY OF COKE, WHICH IS A PURE FORM OF COAL, TO RUN ITS SMELTERS AND AFTER CONTRACTING WITH VARIOUS COMPANIES, DECIDED THEY NEEDED MORE CONTROL OVER IT, SO THEY PURCHASED DAWSON IN 1905.
WHAT THEY DID, AND DID THIS A LITTLE BIT IN ARIZONA AS WELL, IS THEY BUILT WHAT WAS CONSIDERED A MODEL COMPANY TOWN.
THESE WEREN'T SHACKS.
LIVING CONDITIONS WEREN'T AS POOR AS THEY WERE IN MANY OTHER COAL CAMPS AROUND THE SOUTHWEST AND AROUND THE COUNTRY.
AND THEY CAME IN AND, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST BUILT THIS REMARKABLE TOWN, BUILT A 1000-SEAT OPERA HOUSE, AGAIN THIS IS IN THE EARLY 1900'S, 1000 SEATS, AT THE TIME THE LARGEST OPERA HOUSE IN NEW MEXICO.
THEY BUILT A LARGE THREE-STORY MERCANTILE STORE THAT ACTUALLY SENT BUYERS TO NEW YORK CITY TO CHECK OUT THE LATEST FASHIONS AND THEY WOULD BRING THEM BACK.
MEN'S AND WOMEN'S FASHIONS AND PUT ON LIVE FASHION SHOWS.
AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD THINK IS A COAL TOWN.
>> Russell: IN OCTOBER OF 1913 THERE WAS A MAJOR DISASTER THERE IN DAWSON.
TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.
>> Nick: THAT WAS THE FIRST OF TWO, ACTUALLY, BUT THIS WAS THE BIGGEST.
1913, OCTOBER 22, 261 MINERS AND TWO RESCUE MEN ULTIMATELY ENDED UP BEING KILLED.
IT STILL RANKS TODAY AS THE SECOND DEADLIEST MINE DISASTER IN U.S. HISTORY.
THE SOURCE OF IT WAS THAT DURING THAT AFTERNOON, WHILE THIS WAS A VIOLATION OF STATE LAW AND COMPANY RULES, ONE OF THE MINERS WAS WORKING, YOU KNOW, PUT HIS BLASTING POWDER INTO THE WALL AND DECIDED TO IGNITE IT WHILE EVERYONE WAS IN THE MINE.
THAT REALLY WASN'T THAT UNCOMMON.
THE MINERS IN THOSE DAYS FOR THE MOST PART ALL WERE PAID BY THE TON, BASED ON HOW MUCH COAL THEY WERE ABLE TO TAKE OUT OF THE MINE.
AND SO THIS GENTLEMAN OBVIOUSLY WAS JUST TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, JUST DEEPEN HIS LOAD SO HE WOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE MORE MONEY WHEN THE COAL WENT TO THE TIPPLE.
UNFORTUNATELY HE SET THE POWDER INCORRECTLY AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS INSTEAD OF THE CHARGE GOING INTO THE WALL AND BLOWING OUT THE COAL SO HE COULD PUT IT INTO THE CART, IT BLEW OUT INTO THE MINE AND IGNITED THE COAL DUST WHICH IS VERY, VERY FLAMMABLE AND AT THAT POINT THERE WAS -- IT WAS BECOMING MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAT THAT WAS A SAFETY ISSUE IN COAL MINES IN AMERICA.
>> Russell: HOW DID THE NATION RESPOND TO THE DISASTER?
>> Nick: IT WAS A NATIONAL NEWS STORY, I MEAN, THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, CARRIED IN PAPERS, YOU KNOW, BACK ON THE EAST COAST THROUGH THE MIDWEST AND BECAUSE AT THE TIME MOST OF THE MINERS WERE EUROPEAN IMMIGRANTS THAT HAD COME HERE DURING THE MASSIVE WAVE OF IMMIGRATION BETWEEN 1880 AND 1920, YOU KNOW, NEWS OF THE DISASTER ALSO WENT BACK TO THEIR VILLAGES AND THE NEWSPAPERS IN ITALY, AND OTHER COUNTRIES CARRIED NEWS OF THE DISASTER.
>> Russell: 10 YEARS LATER, THERE WAS ANOTHER DISASTER.
WHAT HAPPENED?
>> Nick: IN THAT CASE THEY WERE USING ELECTRIC CARS TO TRANSPORT THE COAL AND THE MINERS BACK AND FORTH INTO THE MINES AND FOR REASONS THAT ARE STILL UNKNOWN, THE CAR ENDED UP GOING OFF THE TRACK, HIT A POLE THAT CARRIED THE FEEDER LINE, THE WIRES UP TOP, THE WIRES CAME DOWN, HIT THE IRON CAR AND CREATED A SPARK AND THAT AGAIN IGNITED THE COAL DUST IN THE MINE.
IN THAT CASE, 120 PEOPLE ENDED UP DYING.
TWO GENTLEMEN ALMOST MIRACULOUSLY SURVIVED WALKING OUT OF THE MINE 16 HOURS LATER UNHURT.
>> Russell: YOU MENTIONED THIS WAS A PLACE OF EUROPEAN IMMIGRATION ALSO A PLACE FOR LATINO AND NATIVE AMERICANS.
IT WAS A MULTI NATIONAL RACIAL PLACE AND ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS RESIDENTS THERE WAS OF COURSE DOLORES HUERTA.
SHE WAS BORN IN THIS TOWN.
WHAT WAS LIFE LIKE FOR HER WHEN SHE WAS BORN IN THIS TOWN AND HER FAMILY?
>> Nick: WAS SHE THERE FOR A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
SHE TOLD ME THAT HER FAMILY -- SHE MOVED -- HER MOTHER AND HER SIBLINGS AFTER HER PARENTS SEPARATED, WHEN SHE WAS IN FIRST GRADE, BETWEEN CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR'S DURING THE VACATION.
SHE HAD GONE BACK A COUPLE OF TIMES AS A TEENAGER, AND WHEN I TALKED TO HER ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE I KNEW THAT SHE REALLY DIDN'T REMEMBER ANYTHING MUCH FROM BEING A CHILD, AND SHE SAID SHE ALWAYS GOT A SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A HAPPY PLACE AND OBVIOUSLY WORKING COAL MINES IS AN INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS PROFESSION.
AT THE TIME, ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AROUND BUT, YOU KNOW, TO HER THIS WAS A PLACE WHERE MANY NATIONALITIES CAME TOGETHER, 16, 17 DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAD WORKERS THERE.
BUT, THEY ALL SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH A SENSE OF HARMONY, AND CREATED A KIND OF AN EARLY COSMOPOLITAN UNITED NATIONS KIND OF COMMUNITY THAT YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, EITHER WERE BORN THERE, WENT TO SCHOOL THERE, YOU KNOW, OR HAD FAMILY MEMBERS WHO WERE THERE, AND THEY ALL TELL THE HAPPIEST STORIES THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE.
>> Russell: THE MINE EVENTUALLY CLOSED, THE MINING TOWN?
>> Nick: OVER A PERIOD OF TIME CONDITIONS CHANGED.
YOU KNOW.
WHEN I FIRST STARTED DOING RESEARCH, IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THE OLD MILLER LIGHT COMMERCIAL, TASTES GREAT LESS FILLING.
ON THE ONE SIDE THERE WAS LABOR STRIFE.
ON THE OTHER SIDE IT WAS JUST THE CHANGING CONDITIONS AND AS USUALLY THE CASE, THE TRUTH WAS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.
ONE THE MORE SIGNIFICANT FACTORS WAS THAT AT THAT POINT IN TIME THE MAJORED CUSTOMER WHO WAS THE SOUTHERN PACIFIC RAILROAD AND AROUND THE LATE 40S, WHEN SOUTHERN PACIFIC CONVERTED FROM USING COAL TO DIESEL, AND THAT PRETTY MUCH WIPED OUT THEIR MAJOR CUSTOMER AT THE TIME.
>> Russell: IT HAS BEEN 75 YEARS SINCE THIS TOWN CLOSED.
WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO WRITE THIS BOOK?
>> Nick: I MOVED TO ALBUQUERQUE IN JUNE OF 2013 TO TAKE A JOB AT THE JOURNAL, MY WIFE SUSAN AND I CAME OUT HERE.
IT TURNS OUT THAT OCTOBER WAS THE 100 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE 1913 MINE DISASTER.
AND AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, THE JOURNAL, THE NEW MEXICAN, OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS ALL GAVE MAJOR PLAY TO THIS ANNIVERSARY DATE.
AND THERE WAS JUST SOMETHING THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT THAT.
YOU KNOW, I STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHY TO THIS DAY, IT HAS AN IMPRESSION ON ME, BUT, YOU KNOW, I STARTED JUST EVEN THEN JUST GOING ONLINE, DOING RESEARCH, TRYING TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, PART OF IT, I THINK, WAS JUST THE SHEER HORROR OF THIS INCIDENT THAT OCCURRED THREE-AND-A-HALF HOURS FROM WHERE I AM LIVING NOW.
PART OF IT MAY HAVE TO DO WITH THE, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE THERE AND THERE WERE LIKE THREE DOZEN GREEKS THAT GOT KILLED IN THE FIRST EXPLOSION.
MY FATHER CAME OVER FROM GREECE SHORTLY AFTER THAT, NOT TO WORK IN THE COAL MINES, BUT TO WORK IN THE STEEL MILLS OF GARY, INDIANA, SO MAYBE THAT WAS PART OF IT.
BUT IT WAS JUST SOMETHING ABOUT THE STORY AND THE MORE I LOOKED INTO IT, WHAT BECAME EVEN MORE INTERESTING WAS THE FACT THAT WHEN I WAS DOING MY RESEARCH, IT WAS LIKE 70 YEARS AFTER THE TOWN HAD CLOSED, THAT THIS COMMUNITY OF -- THIS DAWSON COMMUNITY STILL EXISTED AS A, YOU KNOW, VERY ACTIVE DAWSON FACEBOOK PAGE.
THERE IS A WEBSITE THAT IS VERY VIBRANT IN TERMS OF HAVING SOME OF THE HISTORY, EVEN KEEPING TRACK OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE PASSED AWAY.
AND THESE ARE REUNIONS THAT THE TOWN CLOSED IN 1950.
THE FIRST DAWSON REUNION TOOK PLACE IN 1954 IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA, WHERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAD GONE AFTER THE TOWN CLOSED, AND THEY CONTINUED FOR A FEW YEARS IN CALIFORNIA.
EVENTUALLY THEY CAME BACK TO NEW MEXICO, AND SINCE THE EARLY 1980'S, THE DAWSON, NEW MEXICO ASSOCIATION HAS GOTTEN PERMISSION FROM THE LANDOWNER, THE RANCH OWNER, TO BE ABLE TO, ON THE SUNDAY OF LABOR DAY WEEKEND, TO HOLD REUNIONS THERE.
AND IN THE 80'S I AM TOLD THEY CAME CLOSE TO 2,000 PEOPLE WOULD SHOW UP FOR THESE.
I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO MY FIRST LAST YEAR.
AND EVEN THEN, THIS IS LIKE 73 YEARS AFTER THE TOWN CLOSED, JUST SHY OF 600 PEOPLE SHOWED UP.
AND, THEY COME WITH PICTURES AND THEIR MOMENTOS AND TELL STORIES AND IT IS JUST AN REMARKABLE EXPERIENCE TO SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS COAL TOWN THAT HASN'T EXISTED FOR ALMOST 3/4 OF A CENTURY, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE, THE DESCENDENTS, YOU KNOW, STILL HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS LOVE FOR THIS COMMUNITY AND FOR EACH OTHER.
AND IF THERE ARE ANY DOUBTS WHETHER I WAS GOING TO PURSUE A BOOK ON THIS, I THINK THAT PUSHED ME OVER THE LINE ALMOST AS MUCH AS JUST TRYING TO WRITE A NARRATIVE HISTORY OF THE TOWN AND THE TWO DISASTERS.
>> Russell: NICK, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> Nick: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> Lou: THANKS TO RUSSELL AND AUTHOR NICK PAPPAS FOR ON THAT CONVERSATION.
WHO GETS TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT AIR POLLUTION IN ALBUQUERQUE IS IN LIMBO.
FOR WEEKS, THE CITY COUNCIL AND ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR TIM KELLER HAVE BEEN AT ODDS OVER TWO BILLS PROPOSED BY COUNCILOR DAN LEWIS.
BILLS DISBANDING THE ALBUQUERQUE BERNALILLO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD AND HALTING ANY NEW AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS UNTIL FEBRUARY.
AT THE HEART OF THE DISAGREEMENT LIES THE PROPOSED HEALTH ENVIRONMENT AND EQUITY IMPACT RULE WHICH SOUTH VALLEY COMMUNITIES PETITIONED THE BOARD TO CONSIDER ADOPTING.
COMMUNITIES FOLLOWED THE GOVERNMENTAL PROCESS TO PROPOSE A NEW RULE AND THE JOINT CITY-COUNTY BOARD STARTED HOLDING HEARINGS ON IT THIS WEEK.
BUT MONDAY THE CITY COUNCIL OVERTURNED KELLER'S VETOES OF THE TWO BILLS AND DEMANDED AN IMMEDIATE END TO THOSE HEARINGS.
THE BOARD CONTINUED TAKING TESTIMONY AND IS NOW ASKING A JUDGE TO STOP THE CITY FROM INTERFERING IN THE BOARD'S LEGAL RULE-MAKING PROCESS.
THE BOARD'S REQUEST TO THE SECOND JUDICIAL COURT NOTES LEWIS' BUSINESS INTERESTS IN THE SOUTH VALLEY AND ASSERTS THAT THE CITY'S ACTIONS HAVE RAISED SERIOUS CIVIL RIGHTS CONCERNS BY, QUOTE, HINDERING THE RIGHT TO A FAIR HEARING.
OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS WILL KEEP FOLLOWING THE ISSUE WHICH HAS IMPLICATIONS EVEN BEYOND THE METRO AREA.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
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