>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE  YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, A SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS.

AS AUTHORITIES FIND MORE AND MORE BODIES NEAR THE SOUTHERN  NEW MEXICO BORDER, JOURNALISTS LAUREN VILLAGRAN AND OMAR  ORNALES TELL US HOW THEY'RE DOCUMENTING THE DEAD.

>> Lauren: PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE PROCESS OF MIGRATING ARE  OFTEN WRITTEN OFF AS MIGRANTS AND NOT LOOKED AT AS WHOLE  PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, HAVE LIVES AND FAMILIES AND DREAMS.

>> Lou: PLUS, CASE CLOSED.

WHAT TO EXPECT IN 2024 AFTER  THE STATE SUPREME COURT ISSUED ITS FINAL SAY ON REDRAWN  CONGRESSIONAL MAPS.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS  NOW.

>> Lou: THANKS FOR JOINING US  THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU  DIVIZIO.

WE'RE LOOKING AHEAD TO  WHAT'S SHAPING UP AS ANOTHER CLOSE  CONGRESSIONAL RACE IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE  STATE.

THAT'S AFTER LAST  MONTH'S STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION UPHOLDING  THE DEMOCRATIC DRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAP.

ALTHOUGH A DISTRICT COURT JUDGE FOUND  DEMOCRATS TRIED TO STACK 2021'S MAP IN THEIR  FAVOR, THEY DIDN'T GO TOO FAR.

IT'S AN INTERESTING LEGAL LINE, AND WE'RE  GOING TO TRY TO WALK IT FOR YOU.

IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES, KUNM'S NASH JONES SITS  DOWN WITH A SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE TO FRAME THE  COURT'S DECISION AND LOOK AHEAD TO 2024.

THEN LATER IN THE SHOW, WE LOOK BACK ON THE  LASTING IMPACT OF A HISTORIC MINING TOWN IN  THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATE.

IN A LITTLE OVER 40 MINUTES, CORRESPONDENT  RUSSELL CONTRERAS INTERVIEWS AUTHOR NICK  PAPPAS ABOUT DAWSON, NEW MEXICO, AND THE TWO  MINING DISASTERS THAT DEVASTATED THE COMMUNITY  AND MADE HEADLINES AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT WE BEGIN ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER WHERE  AUTHORITIES ARE DISCOVERING A JARRING  NUMBER OF PEOPLE, PRESUMABLY MIGRANTS  COMING TO THE U.S., DEAD.

REPORTER LAUREN VILLAGRAN HAS BEEN  INVESTIGATING THE SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS FOR  THE EL PASO TIMES.

THIS WEEK, EXECUTIVE  PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SPEAKS WITH VILLAGRAN  AND PHOTOJOURNALIST OMAR ORNELAS ABOUT WHAT  PUSHED THEM TO PURSUE THIS STORY AND WHAT THEY  FOUND.

>> Jeff: AS WE JUST  HEARD FROM LOU, READERS ARE FINALLY GETTING A  LOOK AT THE FIRST FEW INSTALLMENTS OF YOUR  SERIES ON MIGRANT DEATHS, AND THERE'S A  LOT THAT I'D LIKE TO GET TO IN WHAT WILL NOT BE  ENOUGH TIME.

YOU-ALL HAVE WORKED ON  THESE STORIES FOR A YEAR, AND I'D LIKE TO  REWIND THE CLOCK JUST A BIT.

OMAR, WHERE DID THE REPORTING BEGIN?

>> Omar: WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE INITIALLY  RESPONDED TO THE FIRE ON THE 27th OF MARCH, IT  WAS A MONDAY, LIKE ANY REGULAR DAY, AND SOME OF  OUR COLLEAGUES HERE IN JUAREZ HAD MENTIONED  THAT THERE HAD BEEN A FIRE AND THERE MAY BE A  POSSIBILITY OF TWO OR THREE DEATHS.

SO THAT SORT OF ALARM KIND OF GOT MY INTEREST  AS A JOURNALIST, TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AS THE  INFORMATION RELATIVELY WAS COMING IN.

SO WHEN WE CALLED FOR MORE INFORMATION, THEY  SAID POSSIBLY SEVEN BODIES HAVE BEEN TAKEN  OUT OF THE BUILDING.

THAT BECAME A REAL  CONCERN FOR ME, AND IMMEDIATELY, YOU KNOW, I  HEADED DOWN TO THE MIGRANT DETENTION  CENTER.

AS I ARRIVED, I MEAN,  ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT WAS, YOU KNOW,  DRAMATIC IS THAT BY THE TIME I GOT THERE, WHICH  WAS PROBABLY MAYBE 45 MINUTES INTO THE FIRE,  THERE WAS PROBABLY ALREADY ABOUT 15 OR A  DOZEN BODIES LAID IN THE FRONT AS THE FIRST  RESPONDERS AND MILITARY WERE TAKING OUT THE  BODIES.

AND THE WEEK BEFORE  THAT, THERE HAD BEEN A GROUP OF MIGRANTS THAT  HAD APPROACHED THE INTERNATIONAL DEL NORTE,  ABOUT 500 PEOPLE.

AND SO WE HAD ALREADY  SEEN ON THE STREETS THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING  BOILING UP, THERE WAS SOMETHING DEFINITELY  HAPPENING WITH THE DESPERATION OF THE  MIGRANTS NOT BEING ABLE TO BE PROCESSED FOR  ASYLUM.

WE HAD SEEN A LOT OF  TENSION BETWEEN MIGRANTS AND THE CIVIC SOCIETY IN  JUAREZ, AND THE RESPONSE TO IT WAS ONE OF  TENSION.

AND ON THE 13th OF  MARCH, JUST A COUPLE WEEKS BEFORE THE  TRAGEDY, THE MAYOR OF JUAREZ, CRUZ  PEREZ-CUELLAR, YOU KNOW, MADE A STATEMENT WHERE  HE SAID THAT THE PATIENCE WAS RUNNING  OUT.

>> Jeff: YOU MADE A MINI  DOCUMENTARY FOR THE EL PASO TIMES THAT I WOULD  LIKE TO SHOW MY VIEWERS NOW.

BRIEFLY, CAN YOU TELL FOLKS WAS THEY'RE ABOUT  TO SEE?

>> Omar: SURE.

SO IN THIS VIDEO, LAUREN AND I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY  TO VISIT GUATEMALA, WITH SOME OF THE FAMILIES OF  THE VICTIMS THAT DIED AT THE MIGRANT DETENTION  CENTER IN JUAREZ.

WE WERE ABLE TO MEET A  FEW OF THE FAMILIES, AND ALSO SPEAK TO A LOCAL  JOURNALIST WHO IS THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY  INFORMED THE FAMILIES OF THIS MAYAN COMMUNITY OF  WHAT HAD OCCURRED IN CUIDAD JUAREZ.

SO WE START THE VIDEO THROUGH HIS VOICE, AND  IN THAT WAY TIE IT A LITTLE BIT TO WHAT WE  REPORTED IN CUIDAD JUAREZ.

SO IT TELLS THE STORY OF THESE FAMILIES, OF THE  DREAMS, OF THE PAIN, OF THE UNFORTUNATE ENDING  FOR MANY OF THESE MEN, AND PARTICULARLY FOR THE  FIVE MEN OF THIS REGION.

>> Jeff: OKAY, SO LET'S  SEE THAT VIDEO NOW.

>> Jeff: LAUREN, WHAT DID YOU WANT TO LEARN  ABOUT THE 40 MEN WHO DIED IN THAT FIRE, AND  WHAT DID YOU WANT YOUR READERS TO KNOW ABOUT  THEM?

>> Lauren: YES, JEFF.

WELL, YOU KNOW, AS WITH ANY MASS TRAGEDY, SUCH  AS A MASS SHOOTING IN THE U.S., LIKE THE ONE  THAT OCCURRED HERE IN EL PASO IN AUGUST OF 2019,  WHEN YOU HAVE THIS LARGE NUMBER OF VICTIMS, THE  FIRST THING WE ASK OURSELVES AS JOURNALISTS  IS, WHO WERE THEY?

I'M AFRAID THAT OFTEN  YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A PROCESS OF  MIGRATING ARE OFTEN WRITTEN OFF AS MIGRANTS  AND NOT LOOKED AT AS WHOLE PEOPLE WHO, YOU  KNOW, HAVE LIVES AND FAMILIES AND DREAMS THAT  ARE LEFT BEHIND.

SO WE WANTED TO ASK, WHO  WERE THE MEN WHO DIED, AND OF COURSE WHAT WERE  THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

THAT LED US TO FOLLOW  THE BEGINNING OF COURT TESTIMONY IN MEXICAN  FEDERAL COURT, AND ALSO TO START SEARCHING FOR  THE MEN WHO DIED.

IN DOING THAT, I CAME  ACROSS A REPORT IN A MAJOR GUATEMALAN  NEWSPAPER THAT MAPPED THE 19 GUATEMALAN MEN,  LIKE WHERE THEY WERE FROM.

AND I NOTICED THAT FIVE OF THE MEN WERE ALL FROM  THE SAME STATE.

AND WHEN I STARTED TO  MAKE THE INQUIRY AND REACHED OUT TO A LOCAL  COMMUNITY JOURNALIST, ANTONIO CHOX, YOU KNOW,  IT TURNED OUT THAT FIVE OF THE MEN WERE ACTUALLY  FROM THE SAME COLLECTION OF VILLAGES NEAR A PLACE  CALLED LA CEIBA.

AND SO WE WANTED TO GO  DOWN AND FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THEM.

>> Jeff: ONCE THE STORY SORT OF MOVED BEYOND  THAT TRAGEDY AND PIECING TOGETHER WHO THOSE  PEOPLE WERE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE  NUMBER OF MIGRANT DEATHS DURING THE TIME PERIOD  THAT YOU EXAMINED?

>> Lauren: SO THIS BEGAN  AS A SINGULAR PROJECT AROUND THE FIRE AT THE  JUAREZ DETENTION CENTER, BUT WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW  WAS THAT 2023 WAS GOING TO BECOME THE DEADLIEST  YEAR AT THE EL PASO/JUAREZ BORDER  AND IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO SINCE PUBLIC  RECORDKEEPING BEGAN 25 YEARS AGO.

WE'RE TALKING, JEFF, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, A  RECORD OF SIX PEOPLE DYING SIX YEARS AGO,  ACCORDING TO BORDER PATROL STATISTICS, AND  THIS SUMMER IT WAS 149.

THE VAST MAJORITY DIED  IN THE DESERT AREAS RIGHT AROUND SUNLAND  PARK AND DONA ANA COUNTY IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO.

SO IT BECAME CLEAR TO US THAT WHAT, YOU KNOW, MY  COLLEAGUE OMAR WAS TALKING ABOUT, IN TERMS  OF THE TENSIONS AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT  WERE FLOCKING TO JUAREZ AT THIS TIME EARLIER IN  THE YEAR, THAT THAT CONTINUED THROUGH THE  YEAR, YOU KNOW, AND IT JUST REALLY TOOK US BY  SURPRISE.

IT TOOK IMMIGRANT  ADVOCATES, AND IT EVEN TOOK THE BORDER PATROL  BY SURPRISE, BECAUSE THIS REGION HAD REALLY  NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.

>> Jeff: SO IN THE STORY THAT PUBLISHED YESTERDAY  IN THE EL PASO TIMES, ONE OF THE CENTRAL  CHARACTERS IN THAT PIECE OF REPORTING WAS A WOMAN  NAMED LAURA MAE WILLIAMS OF THE OFFICE OF THE  MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR HERE IN NEW MEXICO, HERE  AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

OMAR, I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU  SAW, WHAT YOU DOCUMENTED IN THE COURSE OF  SPENDING TIME WITH LAURA MAE IN THE FIELD.

WHAT WAS HER WORK LIKE?

>> Omar: WELL, FIRST OF  ALL, I THINK LAURA MAE IS JUST A PHENOMENAL  PERSON.

I THINK HER APPROACH TO  HER WORK WAS JUST FROM A HUMANE PERSPECTIVE, AND  I THINK THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED MOST FROM HER.

HER FOCUS WAS LIKE, THIS IS IT, THIS IS HUMANITY,  THIS IS A HUMANE ISSUE.

HER MAIN OBJECTIVE WAS  TO DIGNIFY THESE INDIVIDUALS.

MANY TIMES, WE NEVER FIND OUT WHO THEIR  IDENTITY IS.

SO I THINK HER PROCESS,  WITH THAT THOUGHT OF THINKING, HOW WOULD I  LIKE TO BE TREATED OR MY LOVED ONES TO BE  TREATED.

SO I THINK THAT WAS  SOMETHING THAT REALLY KIND OF MOVED ME FROM  HER WORK.

IT WAS OVERWHELMING,  CERTAINLY IN OUR CONVERSATIONS, ABOUT HOW  SHE WOULD SPEAK ABOUT -- WHERE SHE WOULDN'T STOP.

IT WOULD NOT STOP.

IT WAS JUST BODY AFTER  BODY AFTER BODY IN THE DESERT, AND YET, YOU  KNOW, SHE STILL REMAINS STEADFAST IN KEEPING HER  MAIN OBJECTIVE, WHICH IS, AGAIN, TO GIVE SOME  DIGNITY TO THESE TYPE OF DEATHS WHICH ARE  CERTAINLY HORRIBLE.

>> Jeff: LAUREN, WHO  WERE AMONG THE DEAD?

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT  THEM?

AND MAYBE AS  IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DON'T  YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM?

>> Lauren: RIGHT.

SO THE OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR,  WHO LAURA MAE WILLIAMS WORKS FOR, IS THE  FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR THAT GOES OUT ON THE  SCENE TO PROCESS THE BODY, TRY TO IDENTIFY  THE PERSON.

THE OFFICE OF THE  MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR IN NEW MEXICO IS TAKING  REALLY A LEADERSHIP ROLE THIS YEAR IN CREATING A  NEW BOX TO CHECK CALLED PROBABLE BORDER CROSSER,  SO THEY CAN BEGIN TO TRACK AND IDENTIFY  PROBABLE MIGRANTS WHO HAVE DIED.

THE MAJORITY, JEFF, WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

AND OMI, THAT OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL  INVESTIGATOR, IS DEALING WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY  NUMBER OF UNIDENTIFIED BODIES THIS YEAR OF  LIKELY MIGRANTS.

WE DO KNOW WHO SOME OF  THEM ARE, THOUGH.

ANGELICA SALAS-MORALES,  FROM GUATEMALA, HER REMAINS WERE FOUND SADLY  NEAR SUNLAND PARK, NEW MEXICO.

WHILE THE DETECTIVES AND BORDER PATROL WERE  INVESTIGATING HER DEATH AND HER BODY, THERE WAS  A FANNY PACK NEAR HER AND A CELL PHONE INSIDE  IT.

IT RANG, AND THE  DETECTIVE ANSWERED IT, AND IT TURNED OUT IT WAS  A FAMILY MEMBER FROM GUATEMALA WHO HELPED  IDENTIFY HER.

I MEAN, IT'S DRAMATIC  STORIES LIKE THAT.

THERE'S ANOTHER WOMAN,  AMELIANA RUIZ-JUAREZ, WHO WAS STILL ALIVE WHEN  BORDER PATROL FOUND HER UNCONSCIOUS IN A SUNLAND  PARK NEIGHBORHOOD.

SOMEONE HAD REPORTED HER  DEATH AND HAD TRIED TO GIVE HER WATER, BUT  BELIEVED SHE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DYING.

I MEAN, WHAT'S BEEN REALLY DRAMATIC, JEFF,  IS THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE  DYING IN THE MIDDLE OF A VAST DESERT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO MANAGED TO  SCALE THE 30-FOOT BORDER FENCE AND BEGAN A TREK  THAT IS REALLY NOT MORE THAN A MILE OR TWO MILES  FROM THE BORDER FENCE INTO NEIGHBORHOODS, YOU  KNOW, NEAR SCHOOLS OR A HIGHWAY, AND YET THEY  WERE COLLAPSING AND DYING, MANY OF  HEAT-RELATED ILLNESSES THROUGH THE SUMMER, AT A  RATE OF LIKE OMAR MENTIONED OF SOMETIMES  TWO OR THREE PER DAY.

NOW, ONE THING WE HAVE  TO REMEMBER IS THAT MANY OF THESE MIGRANTS, JEFF,  ARE BEING WALKED THROUGH THE DESERT ON THE  MEXICAN SIDE, SOMETIMES FOR FIVE OR SIX HOURS.

THEY ARE ALREADY IN POOR CONDITION.

MANY ARE IN THE HANDS OF SMUGGLERS WHO MAY NOT  HAVE FED THEM FOR DAYS.

THEY'RE NOT IN GOOD  HEALTH OR IN GOOD CONDITION WHEN THEY  FOUND THEMSELVES THIS SUMMER IN THE CHIHUAHUAN  DESERT OF SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO WHEN TEMPERATURES  WERE WELL OVER 100 DEGREES.

LAURA MAE WILLIAMS TAKES THE TEMPERATURE BOTH OF  THE AIR AND THE GROUND WHEN SHE FINDS A BODY.

JEFF, HER THERMOMETER HIT A MAXIMUM OF  150 DEGREES.

THE SAND IN THAT AREA  WAS 150 DEGREES.

YOU KNOW, SO THE BODY  BEGINS TO SWEAT, IT BEGINS TO TRY TO COOL  ITSELF OFF.

THE NORMAL HUMAN  RESPONSE IS TO SEEK SHELTER OR SHADE.

IN THIS AREA, THERE IS NONE.

THERE'S MESQUITE, THERE'S CREOSOTE.

BUT AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A DESERT WHERE THE  HEAT IS COMING UP FROM BELOW AND FROM ABOVE.

AND THE ORGANS BEGIN TO SHUT DOWN.

I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT IT'S A HORRIBLE DEATH.

AND IN THE CASE OF MIGRANTS, MANY TIMES  GROUPS WILL CONTINUE ON AND LEAVE A PERSON  BEHIND, AND AT THAT POINT IT'S USUALLY TOO  LATE.

>> Jeff: SO, I DON'T  WANT TO DETAIL THE CONVERSATION OR DISTRACT  FROM THE INCREDIBLE HUMAN STORIES THAT  YOU-ALL HAVE DOCUMENTED BY VEERING INTO A BIG  POLICY DISCUSSION, BUT WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED IN  THE COURSE OF YOUR REPORTING ABOUT WHY WE  ARE SEEING THIS HUGE SPIKE IN MIGRANT DEATHS  IN THE EL PASO SECTOR?

>> Omar: YOU KNOW, WHEN  WE TALKED ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, WHAT PUSHES  THESE PEOPLE, AND CERTAINLY WHEN WE  DISCUSSED THE PROJECT, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED  ABOUT POLICY.

AND WE TALKED ABOUT  POLICY NOT JUST FROM THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO  FOR MEXICO.

AND IN DOING THAT, WE  SAW THAT AT LEAST REPORTING ON THE GROUND  IN JUAREZ, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER,  PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPTION.

PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE AN OPTION TO TURN  THEMSELVES IN AT A PORT OF ENTRY OR ELSEWHERE.

THIS SO IT WAS JUST AN ACCUMULATION OF PEOPLE  IN A CITY THAT WASN'T, IN MANY WAYS, WELCOMING  THEM CAUSED MANY OF THEM TO RESORT TO THESE TYPE  OF UNSAFE PASSAGES.

WE SAW DIRECT ATTEMPTS  FROM MIGRANTS THAT HAD BECOME OBVIOUSLY  DISILLUSIONED WITH THE OPPORTUNITIES TO COME IN  AND SEEN THEM USING SOME OF THESE OTHER  ALTERNATIVE ROUTES THAT ULTIMATELY COST THEM  THEIR LIVES.

AND ULTIMATELY WHAT  WE'RE SEEING IS, THIS CONTINUES.

IT HASN'T STOPPED.

HERE WE ARE AT THE END  OF THE YEAR, AND JUST YESTERDAY WE HAD 1000  MIGRANTS THAT ARRIVED IN THE CITY OF JUAREZ AND  CROSSED THE RIVER, PASSED THE CONCERTINA  WIRE, AND THEY'RE BEING PROCESSED.

SO IT JUST CONTINUES.

IT HASN'T STOPPED.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, WE WILL LIKELY  CONTINUE SEEING MIGRANTS DYING ALONG THE BORDER  BETWEEN EL PASO AND CUIDAD JUAREZ.

>> Jeff: WHAT CAN READERS EXPECT AS THE  SERIES CONTINUES?

I WON'T ASK YOU TO TIP  YOUR HAND TOO MUCH, BUT WHAT ELSE CAN WE EXPECT  TO SEE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU FOUND IN THIS YEAR  OF REPORTING?

>> Lauren: WE'VE COVERED  THE JUAREZ MIGRANT FIRE.

WE COVERED, YOU KNOW,  THE PROBLEMS THAT SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO IS  SEEING IN THE SANTA THERESA AND SUNLAND PARK  AREA OF DONA ANA COUNTY, AS WELL AS WHAT WATER  MANAGERS WHO MANAGE THE WATERS OF THE RIO GRANDE  HAVE HAD TO CONTEND WITH IN TERMS OF DROWNINGS IN  THE RIVER, AND WE'LL ALSO SEE ADDITIONAL  STORIES FROM ARIZONA WHERE WE HAVE COLLEAGUES  WHO HAVE PUT TOGETHER STORIES THAT LOOK AT  SOLUTIONS.

ARIZONA, AS YOU KNOW,  HAS CONTENDED WITH MIGRANT DEATHS, A VERY  HIGH LEVEL OF MIGRANT DEATHS, FOR ALMOST TWO  DECADES AND HAS DEVELOPED A VARIETY OF,  YOU KNOW, IF NOT SOLUTIONS TO MIGRATION  AND, YOU KNOW, UNSAFE MIGRATION, CERTAINLY  DIFFERENT WAYS OF TRACKING MIGRANT DEATHS,  OF COMMUNICATING AND FINDING FAMILIES.

YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE DOESN'T END.

AND ONE THING THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO  CONTINUE TO EVALUATE AND ANALYZE IS THE U.S.

DETERRENCE APPROACH AT THE BORDER.

WE'RE ABOUT 30 YEARS INTO DETERRENCE EFFORTS,  AND I THINK THAT HOPEFULLY SOME OF OUR  REPORTING IS GOING TO SHED LIGHT ON, YOU KNOW,  ON BORDER POLICIES AS WE HEAD INTO AN ELECTION  YEAR.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU BOTH  SO MUCH FOR COMING ON MY  SHOW THIS WEEK, AND THANKS A TON FOR THE  CONTINUED WORK.

>> Omar: THANK YOU.

IT'S A PLEASURE, SO THANK YOU.

>> Lauren: THANKS, JEFF.

>> Lou: THANK YOU TO  LAUREN AND OMAR FOR TAKING TIME TO SPEAK  WITH US ABOUT THEIR WORK.

LAST MONTH, THE NEW MEXICO STATE SUPREME  COURT HANDED REPUBLICANS A DEFEAT WHEN THE  JUSTICES RULED THAT THE STATE'S REDRAWN  CONGRESSIONAL MAP WAS CONSTITUTIONAL.

THE CASE BEGAN IN EARLY 2022 WHEN THE GOP FILED  A LAWSUIT ALLEGING STATE DEMOCRATS DREW NEW LINES  FOR DISTRICT 2 IN A WAY THAT WEAKENED THE VOTING  POWER OF RESIDENTS, MOSTLY IN SOUTHERN NEW  MEXICO.

LAST OCTOBER, DISTRICT  JUDGE FRED VAN SOELEN FOUND THAT DEMOCRATS  INTENTIONALLY TRIED TO DILUTE REPUBLICAN VOTES  IN DISTRICT 2, BUT THAT THOSE EFFORTS DID NOT  "RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN EGREGIOUS GERRYMANDER."

THE STATE SUPREME COURT AGREED.

KUNM REPORTER NASH JONES HAS FOLLOWED THE INS AND  OUTS OF THIS STORY SINCE IT BEGAN, AND THIS WEEK  THEY HOST A TWO-PART ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION  EXPLORING THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THE  COURT'S DECISION AND HOW THIS IS ALREADY SHAPING  THE STATE'S CONGRESSIONAL CONTESTS  AND FUTURE REDISTRICTING EFFORTS.

>> NASH: THANKS LOU.

JOINING ME TODAY AT THE  TABLE WE HAVE JUSTINE FOX-YOUNG, A REPUBLICAN  FORMER STATE LEGISLATOR.

JUSTICE ED CHAVEZ, CHAIR  OF THE CITIZEN REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE  AND A FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE STATE  SUPREME COURT.

AND DEDE FELDMAN, WHO  SERVED AS A DEMOCRAT IN THE STATE SENATE AND NOW  WORKS WITH COMMON CAUSE NEW MEXICO, A  NONPARTISAN GROUP THAT ADVOCATED FOR THE NEW  CONGRESSIONAL MAP.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING  HERE.

SO, LET'S TAKE A STEP  BACK TO OCTOBER.

THAT'S WHEN STATE  DISTRICTS JUDGE FRED VAN SOELEN RULED THAT THE  STATE'S CONGRESSIONAL MAP IS CONSTITUTIONAL,  WHILE ALSO NOTING THAT DEMOCRATS DID  INTENTIONALLY TRY TO DILUTE THE VOTES OF  REPUBLICANS WHEN THEY ADJUSTED THE BOUNDARIES  OF CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT 2.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T MEMORIZED THE MAP, THAT  WOULD BE THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT.

STARTING THERE, JUSTINE, HOW CAN BOTH OF THOSE  FINDINGS EXIST IN THE SAME BREATH, LEGALLY  SPEAKING?

>> Justine: WELL,  WITHOUT BORING EVERYBODY TO TEARS ON THE LAW, I  THINK SINCE -- IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS,  IT'S BECOME VERY CLEAR THAT IT'S HARD TO BRING  A PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING CLAIM.

AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAD REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE  OF INTENT, PERCIPIENT EVIDENCE.

I MEAN, THEY HAD THE STATEMENTS MADE TO THE  PRESS EARLY ON BY SPEAKER EGOFF, THEY HAD  MIMI STEWART'S STATEMENTS ACROSS THE  BOARD, TEXT MESSAGES, OTHER CONVERSATIONS,  STATEMENTS MADE BETWEEN THE SENATE DEMOCRAT  LEADERSHIP AND REPRESENTATIVES OF THE  OTHER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT MADE IT  VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WANTED TO SORT OF FATTEN  UP THE NUMBERS FOR THAT DISTRICT AND TAKE IT UP  TO, WHAT IS IT NOW, A 53, SO A SIX POINT  SWING.

IT WAS SORT OF NOBODY I  THINK EVEN DENIED THAT.

THE EVIDENCE WAS CLEAR.

THE QUESTION IS, CAN THAT BE OVERCOME?

YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE'LL GET INTO THE STANDARD,  BUT WHAT REALLY IS AN ENTRENCHED INCUMBENT  POSITION?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

I THINK THE JUDGE HAD  HARD FACTS ON THE LAST ELECTION, DIFFICULT  FACTS TO OVERCOME BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A  TIGHT ELECTION BECAUSE IT WAS WITHIN 1%.

I THINK WE'LL SEE HOW BLUE THAT DISTRICT  REALLY IS, YOU KNOW, ONE OR TWO CYCLES DOWN THE  ROAD, BUT BY THEN THIS IS ALL KIND OF WATER  UNDER THE BRIDGE.

SO IT'S A REALLY HARD  CLAIM TO MAKE FOR LOTS OF KIND OF MUNDANE LEGAL  REASONS.

MAYBE NOT MUNDANE TO  JUSTICE CHAVEZ.

HE'S THE REAL BRAINS OF  THE OPERATION.

BUT IT'S A HARD CLAIM  FOR ANY LAWYER TO MAKE.

>> Nash: RIGHT.

AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAST ELECTION IN  2022, THAT WAS THE FIRST ELECTION THAT THIS MAP  WAS USED, THAT SAW REPRESENTATIVE GABE  VASQUEZ OUST YVETTE HARRELL, THE THEN  INCUMBENT, BY LESS THAN 1%; .7%.

>> Justine: AND I DON'T KNOW MR. VASQUEZ, BUT  JUST AS A POLITICAL MATTER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT  APPEAL AND SORT OF WHAT KIND OF CANDIDATE IS  GOING TO APPEAL IN THAT DISTRICT, HE IS NOT A  CANDIDATE YOU WOULD EXPECT TO PICK UP SWING  VOTERS.

HE IS A CANDIDATE WHO I  THINK EVEN BRIAN SANDEROFF SAID AT THE  TRIAL, HE'S GOING TO HAVE PROBLEMS RUNNING ON  HIS VOTING RECORD DOWN THE LINE, JUST BECAUSE  HE IS DEFINITELY FAR LEFT OF CENTER IN THAT  DISTRICT.

I THINK HAD JOE  CERVANTES OR SOME OTHER CANDIDATE WITH A  DIFFERENT COMPLEXION RUN, MIGHT HAVE WON BY  10,000 VOTES.

>> Nash: MEANING MORE  MODERATE.

>> Justine: YES.

IT WOULDN'T TAKE MUCH.

I MEAN, HE'S PRETTY FAR  OUT THERE FOR THE DISTRICT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THAT CONTEXT -- AND THIS  WAS ALSO A PRETTY GOOD REPUBLICAN YEAR THAT  TIGHTENED IT UP.

SO I THINK THAT MIGHT BE  A LITTLE BIT MISLEADING.

WAS IT A .7% DIFFERENCE  IN THE RACE?

I THINK IT'S A  MISLEADING SPLIT.

YOU REALLY WILL SEE THAT  IT'S QUITE A BLUE DISTRICT AND IT'S GOING  TO BE EXTREMELY HARD TO WIN.

IS IT IMPOSSIBLE?

PROBABLY NOT.

LOOK, I RAN AS AN INCUMBENTS IN 2008 IN A  LITTLE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS IN TOWN THAT  WAS MAYBE A 52/48, AND I LOST.

IT WAS A HUGE YEAR FOR OBAMA AND IT WAS A  LITTLE BIT UNPREDICTABLE.

IS IT WINNABLE?

WITH THE RIGHT  CANDIDATES AND THE RIGHT YEAR, CAN A REPUBLICAN  WIN THAT SEAT?

MAYBE, BUT IT'S SUCH A  REACH.

>> Nash: YOU'RE TOUCHING  ON THE IDEA OF HOW ENTRENCHED ARE THE  DEMOCRATS IN THAT DISTRICT NOW, RIGHT,  WHICH WAS A BIG QUESTION  IN THE CASE.

TERMS LIKE ENTRENCHMENT,  TERMS LIKE EGREGIOUS GERRYMANDERING, WHICH I  BELIEVE YOU USED, THAT CAME UP A LOT.

AND REALLY WHAT THOSE ARE ABOUT IS HOW HARD IS  IT FOR THE OTHER PARTY TO WIN THAT RACE.

JUSTICE CHAVEZ, WHERE DO THESE TERMS EVEN COME  FROM?

AND ALSO, HOW DOES A  JUDGE ASSESS THEM?

>> Ed: WELL, ACTUALLY,  THAT'S THE POINT OF THE UNITED STATES SUPREME  COURT OPINION IN RUCHO.

THEY BASICALLY SAID,  LISTEN, PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING CAN BE  CONSTITUTIONAL.

THE QUESTION IS, HOW  MUCH IS TOO MUCH?

AND THEY MAKE THE POINT  THAT THERE'S NO REAL MANAGEABLE STANDARD,  THAT THERE ARE ALL THESE INTANGIBLES THAT JUSTINE  WAS TALKING ABOUT.

CAN THE CANDIDATE RAISE  MONEY?

WHAT'S THEIR  PERSONALITY?

ARE THEY CAMPAIGNING FOR  THE JOB?

NONE OF THIS CAN BE  MEASURED.

AND THE OTHER THING  ABOUT NEW MEXICO, FRANKLY, IS WHEN IT'S A  PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THE VOTERS TURN OUT.

WHEN IT'S A GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION,  THEY DON'T.

HISTORICALLY, IT'S BEEN  LIKE 100,000 DROP-OFF.

LAST GO-ROUND, THERE  WERE 230,000 FEWER VOTERS THAT VOTED.

SO THERE JUST WASN'T MUCH ENTHUSIASM, I  GUESS, AS COMPARED TO PRIOR YEARS.

BUT HOW DO COURTS MEASURE THAT?

WE DO THAT, IN MY MIND, ALL THE TIME, EVEN WITH  CIVIL LITIGATION.

THE REASONABLE PERSON  STANDARD.

YOU KNOW, WE LEAVE THAT  TO THE FACT FINDER TO DECIDE.

WHAT SHOCKS THE CONSCIENCE OF THE COURT,  WE DEAL WITH THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES ALL THE TIME.

SO IN MY MIND, THE EGREGIOUSNESS STANDARD  IS GOING TO BE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.

AND FRANKLY, WHEN THE DISTRICT COURT JUDGE  DECIDED THAT THIS WAS NOT EGREGIOUS, I THINK  THE SUPREME COURT DEFERRING, LOOKING AT  THE CASE, WAS THEIR SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE TO  SUPPORT THE JUDGE'S FINDINGS, AND IF THE  JUDGE CONCLUDES, EVEN WITH ALL THOSE FINDINGS,  THIS WAS NOT EGREGIOUS, THEY'RE GOING TO DEFER  TO THE TRIAL JUDGE.

>> Nash: AND THE TRIAL  JUDGE REALLY WAS FOCUSED ON THE RESULT OF THAT  2022 ELECTION AND HOW CLOSE IT WAS TO SAY, NO,  THIS ISN'T ENTRENCHMENT, ENTRENCHMENT WOULD BE IF  THE REPUBLICANS REALLY HAVE NO CHANCE OF  WINNING A RACE, WHERE THE MAP DECIDES THE  ELECTION, BASICALLY PREDETERMINES THE  RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.

AND HE RULED, NO, THAT'S  NOT THE CASE.

>> Justine: WHICH IS NOT  UNREASONABLE.

I MEAN, IT'S THE DATA  POINT HE HAD AND IT'S A REASONABLE PLACE TO GO  LOOK.

BUT THERE IS ALL THIS  OTHER CONTEXT THAT POLITICAL CONSULTANTS  AND OTHER LOCAL FOLKS CAN UNPACK.

I THINK IT'S AN OPEN QUESTION WHETHER JUDGES  ARE BEST SUITED TO DO THAT, WHETHER WE WANT  OUR COURTS DOING THAT.

>> Nash: THIS CONVERSATION SO  FAR, IT'S A LITTLE WONKY.

I MEAN, I THINK EVEN  JUST THE WORD REDISTRICTING CAN HAVE  SOME PEOPLE TUNING OUT.

SO DEDE, CAN YOU SPEAK A  LITTLE BIT TO WHY NEW MEXICANS SHOULD CARE AT  ALL THAT THERE IS A NEW MAP OR HOW IT WAS MADE?

>> Dede: WELL, I THINK THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING  IS THAT EACH PERSON'S VOTE SHOULD COUNT  EQUALLY, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE STANDARDS  THAT WE DO HAVE THAT, YOU KNOW, JUSTICE CHAVEZ  DEALT WITH IN THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE, THAT  THE DISTRICTS SHOULD BE PROPORTIONALLY THE SAME  POPULATION AND THEY SHOULDN'T VARY THAT  MUCH.

AND THAT ANOTHER  CONSIDERATION IS ALSO THE ETHNIC MAKE-UP.

WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THAT.

BUT THE ETHNIC MAKE-UP -- PARTISAN  MAKE-UP IS ONE THING, ETHNIC MAKE-UP IS  ANOTHER THING.

THERE ARE A LOT OF  BALANCES THAT BOTH THE LEGISLATURE AND THE  COURTS HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

THE RURAL-URBAN BALANCE, AS WELL.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT -- >> Nash: BUT AS PEOPLE  ARE LISTENING TO KIND OF THESE FACTORS THAT  MATTER IN REDISTRICTING, HOW DOES IT AFFECT THEM?

HOW DOES IT AFFECT THEIR LIFE, THEIR EVERYDAY  LIFE, IF THEY'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, THAT'S TOO IN  THE WEEDS FOR ME?

>> Dede: THE ABILITY TO  CHOOSE A CANDIDATE OF THEIR CHOICE, SO THAT  WHEN THEY GO INTO THE POLLING PLACE, THE  DECISION HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN MADE BECAUSE OF THE  PREPONDERANCE OF ONE PARTY IN THAT DISTRICT.

THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE SOME  KIND OF A BALANCE.

>> Justine: AND I WOULD  SAY THE ABILITY TO GET YOUR GOVERNMENT TO WORK  FOR YOU ON THE BACK END, RIGHT.

YOU CAN ELECT THEM, AND THEN WHAT ARE THEY GOING  TO DO?

CHAVEZ COUNTY NOW IS  SPLIT.

THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT  MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT REPRESENT CHAVES COUNTY.

ROSWELL IS SPLIT TWO WAYS NOW WITH THE NEW  MAP.

THAT WILL AFFECT  ACCOUNTABILITY OF THOSE LEGISLATORS.

>> Nash: WELL, YOU HAVE ONE REPRESENTATIVE IN   YOUR AREA AND --  >> Justine: YEAH, AND YOU HAVE A BIG FUNDING PROJECT.

I MEAN, IT'S HARD TO EVEN DESCRIBE THE  IMPLICATIONS, BUT THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT  COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST, THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT  GEOGRAPHIC -- YOU WANT THE BEST GOVERNMENT  POSSIBLE.

>> Nash: I THINK IT'S A  GOOD POINT.

I DO WANT TO BACK UP A  LITTLE BIT FROM BEFORE THIS MAP HIT THE COURTS.

JUSTICE CHAVEZ, THE STATE CREATED THE  CITIZEN REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE IN 2021, WHICH  YOU CHAIRED, AFTER DECADES OF COURTS  DRAWING THE MAPS FOR THE STATE.

THIS NEW MAP WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE  RESULT OF A FAIR, MORE TRANSPARENT PROCESS.

WHY DID IT END UP IN COURT ANYWAY?

>> Ed: BECAUSE ULTIMATELY THE  LEGISLATURE DID NOT ADOPT ANY OF THE MAPS  THAT THE CRC WORKED WITH, AND FRANKLY NO  REPUBLICAN VOTED FOR THAT MAP.

SO WHEN YOU HAVE THIS POLARIZATION, THAT  LITIGATION IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT.

>> Justine: CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT, WHY NO  REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED ANY OF THE PRODUCTS OF  THE COMMISSION?

IT LOOKS LIKE THEY WOULD  HAVE BEEN, AT LEAST ALL OF THEM WOULD HAVE BEEN  AT LEASE MARGINALLY BETTER FOR THE  REPUBLICAN PARTY THAN WHAT CAME OUT.

>> Ed: ACTUALLY, ON THE HOUSE SIDE, I KNOW THERE  WAS DISAGREEMENT AND THERE WERE EFFORTS TO  CHANGE THE MAPS THAT THE CRC PROPOSED, BUT  ULTIMATELY THE HOUSE ADOPTED WHOLESALE ONE OF  THE MAPS THAT WAS RECOMMENDED BY THE CRC.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE SENATE.

THEY WERE UPSET BECAUSE WE PAIRED INCUMBENTS,  AND THEY WANTED TO UNPAIR THE INCUMBENTS.

THAT'S ENTRENCHMENT.

>> Dede: THAT'S JOB ONE  OF ANY DISTRICTING PLAN IN THE LEGISLATURE, IS  INCUMBENT PROTECTION.

>> Ed: AND THEN ON THE  CONGRESSIONAL SIDE, THEY CHOOSE ONE MAP THAT WAS  SUBMITTED BY THE SENATE FOR CIVIC POLICY.

THAT ONE WAS APPROVED BY US 4-3, AS I RECALL.

AND SO THEY USED THAT AS A STARTING POINT, AND I  KNOW THERE WERE AN EXCHANGE OF EMAILS AND  WHATNOT.

SO I THINK THAT THE REPUBLICANS NEVER REALLY  HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE ON ANY OF THOSE  MAPS.

AT LEAST THAT'S THE WAY  I UNDERSTAND IT.

>> Nash: THANK YOU ALL  FOR THE DISCUSSION.

I APPRECIATE IT.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE JUST A QUICK BREAK TO LOOK  AHEAD IN THE SHOW, BUT WE'RE GOING TO BE RIGHT  BACK HERE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE TO TALK ABOUT  WHAT THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION MEANS FOR THE  2024 ELECTION.

>> NICK: YOU KNOW, THIS COAL  TOWN THAT HASN'T EXISTED FOR ALMOST THREE-QUARTERS OF A  CENTURY, THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THE PEOPLE  WHO LIVED THERE, THE DESCENDENTS, YOU KNOW, STILL  HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS LOVE FOR THIS COMMUNITY AND FOR  EACH OTHER.

AND IF THERE ARE ANY DOUBTS  WHETHER I WAS GOING TO PURSUE ON BOOK ON THIS, I THINK THAT  PUSHED ME OVER THE LINE ALMOST AS MUCH AS JUST TRYING TO  WRITE A NARRATIVE HISTORY OF THE TOWN AND THE TWO  DISASTERS.

>> Nash: WELCOME BACK.

SO, THE STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION MEANS THIS  CONGRESSIONAL MAP WILL STAND UNTIL IT IS REDRAWN IN 2031  AND LAWMAKERS KIND OF ALREADY ARE LOOKING TOWARDS THAT DATE.

DURING THE LAST TWO LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS,  LAWMAKERS PROPOSED ASKING VOTERS IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO  CREATE AN INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.

THAT IDEA HASN'T GOTTEN TOO FAR IN THE LAST TWO SESSIONS,  DESPITE PRETTY BROAD PUBLIC SUPPORT.

DEDE, THE COMMITTEE THAT JUSTICE CHAVEZ CHAIRED, THE  CRC, ONLY HAD AN ADVISORY ROLE.

THEY DIDN'T DRAW THE MAPS THEMSELVES.

WHAT ARE THE ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST AN INDEPENDENT  COMMISSION THAT ACTUALLY GETS TO DRAW THE MAPS RATHER THAN  THE LAWMAKERS?

>> Dede: WELL, THERE IS A  QUESTION OF WHO DO YOU WANT TO DRAW THE MAPS?

THAT IS THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING.

DO YOU WANT THE LEGISLATURE TO DRAW THE MAPS?

DO YOU WANT THE COURTS TO DRAW THE MAPS?

AND REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING IN THE LAST SEGMENT, THE COURTS  HAVE DRAWN THE MAPS NOW IN THE PAST 30 YEARS.

AND/OR DO YOU WANT AN INDEPENDENT, A THROUGHLY  INDEPENDENT, NONPARTISAN COMMISSION TO DRAW THE MAPS?

OF COURSE, THERE IS A QUESTION AS TO HOW TO SELECT THAT  INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

BUT, THE ARGUMENTS ARE, IN  TERMS OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION, IS THAT THE  LEGISLATURE IS ALWAYS GOING TO FALL INTO THE TRAP OF HAVING  THE MAJORITY PARTY DRAW THE MAP THAT THEY LIKE TO MAXIMIZE  THEIR INFLUENCE AND THEY ARE ALWAYS GOING TO DRAW THE MAP  TO PROTECT INCUMBENTS AND TO NOT PAIR INCUMBENTS.

>> Justine: BUT IN 2007 YOU STEPPED OUT IN SUPPORT OF AN  INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WITH SENATOR MCSORLEY AND  SENATOR ADAIR DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU WERE IN THE MAJORITY.

AND YOU SAW THE BENEFITS.

>> Dede: BECAUSE I THINK IT IS  THE FAIR THING TO DO.

GETTING BACK TO THE IDEA OF  MAKING SURE THAT EVERY PERSON'S VOTE COUNTS.

AND WE HAVE COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS.

SO WE DON'T HAVE THE GREAT PARTISAN DIVIDE THAT WE HAVE  NOW.

BECAUSE, WHEN YOU HAVE A MAP  WHERE THERE IS SAFE DISTRICTS AND SAFE DISTRICTS FOR 10  YEARS, THEN THOSE PEOPLE THAT RUN IN THOSE DISTRICTS DON'T  APPEAL TO THE MIDDLE.

THEY APPEAL TO THE EXTREMES.

THE ONLY TIME THEY CAN BE TAKEN OUT IS IN A PRIMARY.

AND THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

SO, WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU HAVE A SHRINKING NUMBER OF SWING  SEATS AND A MORE PARTISAN ACRIMONIOUS LEGISLATURE FOR  THAT REASON.

>> Justine: WITH WORSE AND  WORSE CANDIDATES.

I MEAN, THE LESS COMPETITIVE  IT IS, THE WORSE PRODUCT YOU GET, JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Nash: BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED TO APPEAL AS MUCH.

>> Justine: RIGHT.

>> Nash: THEY ARE GOING TO TRY  TO INTRODUCE ANOTHER VERSION OF THIS JOINT RESOLUTION THIS  COMING YEAR, NEXT MONTH.

IN THE 2024 SESSION.

JUSTICE CHAVEZ, WHAT WILL THAT EFFORT LOOK LIKE THIS TIME  AROUND AND CAN WE EXPECT ANY KIND OF DIFFERENT RESULT?

REALLY IT HASN'T GOTTEN OUT OF COMMITTEE.

>> Ed: IT HAS NOT GOTTEN OUT OF COMMITTEE BUT THIS WILL BE  DIFFERENT THAN THE PREVIOUS EFFORTS.

THE CRC, I THINK, IT DID GOOD WORK, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS  HOW THE MEMBERS WERE SELECTED WAS ALL WRONG.

THEN ALLOWING, I THINK, THE LEGISLATURE AT END NOT TO JUST  CHOOSE AMONG THE MAPS BUT COULD DO THEIR OWN THING WAS  ALSO A MISTAKE AND CRITICIZED.

WHAT WE WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY  NOW IS IT WOULD BE A NINE MEMBER, THREE DEMOCRATS, THREE  REPUBLICANS, THREE WHO ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH EITHER THE  DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THE SELECTION PROCESS IS A LITTLE BIT ELABORATE.

WE WOULD HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO WOULD PUBLISH  APPLICATIONS, SOLICIT APPLICATIONS, REVIEW  APPLICATIONS, AND THEN WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF A  DEMOGRAPHER AND STATISTICS WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT THE  DEMOGRAPHICS AND GEOGRAPHICS OF OUR STATE AND MAKE THE  SELECTIONS.

WE THINK THAT PROCESS IS GOING  TO ALLOW US TO HAVE ACROSS-THE-BOARD  REPRESENTATION.

WE ONLY HAD ONE FEMALE ON THE  COMMITTEE.

ALL OF US WERE BASICALLY FRO  ALBUQUERQUE WITH ONE FROM -- >> Nash: NO INDIGENOUS  REPRESENTATION.

>> Ed: NO INDIGENOUS  REPRESENTATION.

THREE APPLICANTS, BUT THEY  WERE NOT SELECTED.

WE DEFINITELY WANT TO SEE IF  THAT CAN HAPPEN AND SO THIS WOULD BE THE PROCESS.

THEN THE SECRETARY OF STATE WOULD VET THE APPLICATIONS,  RANDOMLY SELECT 120 IN A LIVE SHOWING WITH SOMEBODY THEY  HAVE CONTRIBUTED WITH.

THEY WOULD SEND THAT THEN TO  LEADERSHIP.

THEY WOULD EACH GET THREE  STRIKES, BASICALLY.

WE DON'T WANT THIS PERSON.

AND THEN WE GO BACK TO THE SECRETARY WHO THEN RANDOMLY  SELECTS SIX MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION.

THOSE SIX MEMBERS WOULD THEN LOOK AT THE APPLICATION  THINKING ABOUT THE GEOGRAPHY AND DEMOGRAPHICS OF OUR STATE  AND TRY TO BALANCE THAT COMMISSION BY SELECTING THE  REMAINING THREE.

>> NASH: IT IS AN INVOLVED  VETTING PROCESS.

>> Ed: IT IS AN INVOLVED  VETTING PROCESS BUT I THINK IT MAXIMIZES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR  THERE TO BE REPRESENTATION FROM THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND  ALSO -- >> Nash: LET ME RESPOND TO YOU  THE FEEDBACK FROM LAWMAKERS THAT THEY WANT A SAY IN WHO  SITS ON THIS COMMISSION, OR THEY WANT TO BE THE FOLKS THAT  DRAW THE MAP, BECAUSE IT IS A SMALL BIT OF THE POWER THEY DO  HAVE.

>> Ed: IT GIVES THEM AN  OPPORTUNITY TO AT LEAST STRIKE SOME OF WHAT THEY THINK WOULD  NOT BE GOOD FOR THE COMMISSION.

>> Dede: THIS IS A TRULY UNIQUE SUGGESTION TO HAVE A  RANDOMLY SELECTED COMMISSION.

>> Justine: GO THROUGH THE  PHONE BOOK, RIGHT?

YOU MIGHT DO BETTER -- >> Ed: QUALIFICATIONS AND  DISQUALIFICATIONS.

>> Justine: I APPRECIATE YOUR  HARD WORK ON THIS.

>> Nash: LET'S SAY 2031 COMES  AROUND WHEN THE MAP IS GOING TO BE REDRAWN AGAIN AND THE  LAWMAKERS ARE STILL DRAWING IT, RIGHT?

THAT WOULD BE THAT THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION NEVER  CAME TO BE IN 2031.

JUSTINE, IF THAT IS THE CASE,  DID THIS YEARS SUPREME COURT RULING KIND OF BASICALLY DRAW  A ROAD MAP FOR GERRYMANDERING JUST ENOUGH, WITHOUT ALSO  GETTING BUSTED.

>> Justine: IT DID, YEAH, AND  I THINK THE REPUBLICANS MADE SOME BAD LAW AND MAYBE THEY  WOULD DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD TO  WORK WITH WHAT THEY HAD TO WORK WITH IN THE COURTS.

IT IS SUCH A COMPLICATED ISSUE AND I MEAN JUSTICE CHAVEZ GETS  AT TWO OF THE MAIN FACTORS.

YOU WANT EXPERTISE BUT YOU  ALSO WANT REPRESENTATION.

AND I WILL SAY, NASH, WE DO  REDISTRICTING STATE-WIDE IN CITIES, SCHOOL BOARDS,  COUNTIES, KIND OF IN THE SHADOWS AND IT IS DONE PRETTY  WELL.

THIS IS A PROCESS THAT IT IS  NOT REALLY THAT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU TAKE THE DATA AND GO  DO IT, BUT ONCE YOU REALLY HAVE REPRESENTATION, EVERYBODY  HAS GOT A DIFFERENT VIEWPOINT, A DIFFERENT MOTIVE AND THAT IS  HOW WE WANT THE PROCESS TO WORK.

THAT IS WHY THE FEDERAL COURT SAYS THESE CLAIMS AREN'T  JUDICIABLE IN FEDERAL COURT, WE DON'T, IN ESSENCE, IN SOME  CASES WANT THE COURTS DECIDING.

THIS SHOULD BE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY PLAYING OUT.

BUT IT BECOMES VERY HARD WHEN YOU LOOK AT A STATE LIKE NEW  MEXICO WHERE YOU HAVE SO MUCH VARIATION, GEOGRAPHICALLY,  URBAN, RURAL, RACIALLY, SOCIOECONOMICALLY, ET CETERA,  TO ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THAT IN A COMMISSION OR TO ACCOUNT FOR  ALL THAT ACROSS THE SUPREME COURT.

SO, WE ARE STRUGGLING WITH THAT.

BUT I DO THINK IT IS A PRECEDENT THAT IS HARD TO GET  AROUND.

DEDE RAISED AN ISSUE OF RACE  AND RACE DID NOT -- WAS NOT REALLY INTERJECTED INTO THIS  LAWSUIT.

I WASN'T IN IT BUT NOT  PUBLICLY.

THERE WERE SOME COMMENTS MADE,  OKAY, ABOUT THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT 2 IN THE LEGISLATIVE  PROCESS ABOUT MAKING THAT DISTRICT MUCH MORE HISPANIC  AND I THINK THE REPUBLICANS COULD HAVE SEIZED ON THAT AND  SAID, WE ARE GOING TO BRING A DIFFERENT KIND OF CLAIM AND I  THINK THAT, TO GET BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THAT IS  KIND OF WHERE THIS IS GOING TO DRIVE US.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SUCCESS ON REDISTRICTING  SUITS, IT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE -- YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET  THERE ON GERRYMANDERING.

YOU HAVE GOT TO LOOK AT THE  NUTS AND BOLTS OF IT.

>> Nash: IF THAT IS POTENTIAL  REPUBLICAN STRATEGY FOR THIS SUIT AND THEY DIDN'T GO THAT  WAY, I DO WANT TO KIND OF STICK ON THAT IN TERMS OF THIS  UPCOMING ELECTION NEXT YEAR.

DO REPUBLICANS NEED TO CHANGE  THEIR STRATEGY IN ORDER TO RESPOND TO A MAP THAT NOW  LEANS DEMOCRATIC?

>> Justine: I DON'T SPEAK FOR  THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BUT I  THINK NATIONWIDE YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE GOING BACK TO LOOK AT  THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE ROOM TO ARGUE IN THE COURTS  AND MORE LIKE SUCCESS.

IN THIS CASE, MIMI STEWART,  HAS SAID ON THE FLOOR, WE ARE TAKING THIS DISTRICT FROM A  50.6% HISPANIC DISTRICT TO 54 TO 56 AND THAT IS PART OF OUR  GOAL.

OKAY, WELL THAT MAY BE ENOUGH  TO GET STARTED WITH A LAWSUIT.

I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T  TAKE IT THAT DIRECTION, BUT, YEAH, I WOULD EXPECT TO SEE  THAT.

>> Dede: THAT WAS ONE OF THE  CRITERIA THAT YOUR COMMITTEE WAS ALLOWED TO CONSIDER, THE  MAKEUP OF DISTRICTS AND I THINK THAT IS A VALID  CRITERIA.

>> Justine: AND I DON'T  DISAGREE.

>> DEDE: THE SUPREME COURT  HAS SAID THAT PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING IS A STATE  AFFAIR.

BUT, RACIAL GERRYMANDERING IS  A FEDERAL AFFAIR.

>> Justine: TO THE EXTENT IT  BECOMES EXCLUSIVE, RIGHT?

>> Nash: I APPRECIATE THE  ROBUST CONVERSATION HERE.

DEDE FELDMAN, FORMER JUSTICE  ED CHAVEZ AND FORMER REPRESENTATIVE JUSTINE FOX  YOUNG, THANK YOU ALL FOR SITTING AROUND THE TABLE  TODAY.

>> Lou: THANKS TO NASH JONES  FOR THE YEARS OF REPORTING THAT IT TOOK TO PREPARE FOR  THAT ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION.

YOU CAN LISTEN TO NASH AS  LOCAL HOST OF NPR'S ALL THINGS CONSIDERED MONDAY THROUGH  FRIDAY FROM 5:00 TO 7:00 P.M. ON KUNM RADIO.

TONIGHT WE ARE LOOKING BACK AT THE HISTORY OF WHAT HAS BECOME  A GHOST TO IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE STATE, DAWSON, NEW MEXICO.

MORE THAN 100 YEARS AGO DAWSON FLOURISHED AS A COAL TOWN BUT  TWO DEVASTATING MINING DISASTERS, 10 YEARS APART,  KILLED 400 MINERS AND IRREPARABLY SCARED THE  COMMUNITY.

DAWSON HAS INTRIGUED AUTHOR  AND JOURNALIST NICK PAPPAS FOR YEARS.

THIS WEEK, HE SPEAKS WITH CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL  CONTRERAS ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK LOOKING BACK AT DAWSON AND ITS  LINGERING IMPACT.

>> Russell: NICK, THANK YOU  FOR JOINING US HERE.

>> Nick: THANK YOU, RUSSELL.

AND I WANT TO THANK NEW MEXICO INFOCUS FOR HAVING ME TALK A  LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY BOOK AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY TO  SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS FASCINATING GARDEN PIECE OF  NEW MEXICO HISTORY.

>> Russell: NOW YOUR BOOK IS  CALLED, CROSSES OF IRON, THE TRAGIC STORY OF DAWSON, NEW  MEXICO AND ITS TWIN MINING DISASTERS.

FIRST OFF, TELL ME WHAT WAS DAWSON, NEW MEXICO?

WHO LIVED THERE?

>> Nick: DAWSON WAS A COMPANY  TOWN RUN BY PHELPS DODGE AND COMPANY FIRST IN 1905 AND RAN  UNTIL 1950.

PHELPS DODGE WAS AN IMPORT  EXPORT COMPANY BASED IN NEW YORK THAT GOT INTO THE COPPER  MINING BUSINESS IN ARIZONA.

AND NEEDED A STEADY SUPPLY OF  COKE, WHICH IS A PURE FORM OF COAL, TO RUN ITS SMELTERS AND  AFTER CONTRACTING WITH VARIOUS COMPANIES, DECIDED THEY NEEDED  MORE CONTROL OVER IT, SO THEY PURCHASED DAWSON IN 1905.

WHAT THEY DID, AND DID THIS A LITTLE BIT IN ARIZONA AS WELL,  IS THEY BUILT WHAT WAS CONSIDERED A MODEL COMPANY  TOWN.

THESE WEREN'T SHACKS.

LIVING CONDITIONS WEREN'T AS POOR AS THEY WERE IN MANY  OTHER COAL CAMPS AROUND THE SOUTHWEST AND AROUND THE  COUNTRY.

AND THEY CAME IN AND, YOU  KNOW, THEY JUST BUILT THIS REMARKABLE TOWN, BUILT A  1000-SEAT OPERA HOUSE, AGAIN THIS IS IN THE EARLY 1900'S,  1000 SEATS, AT THE TIME THE LARGEST OPERA HOUSE IN NEW  MEXICO.

THEY BUILT A LARGE THREE-STORY  MERCANTILE STORE THAT ACTUALLY SENT BUYERS TO NEW YORK CITY  TO CHECK OUT THE LATEST FASHIONS AND THEY WOULD BRING  THEM BACK.

MEN'S AND WOMEN'S FASHIONS AND  PUT ON LIVE FASHION SHOWS.

AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD  THINK IS A COAL TOWN.

>> Russell: IN OCTOBER OF 1913  THERE WAS A MAJOR DISASTER THERE IN DAWSON.

TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.

>> Nick: THAT WAS THE FIRST OF  TWO, ACTUALLY, BUT THIS WAS THE BIGGEST.

1913, OCTOBER 22, 261 MINERS AND TWO RESCUE MEN ULTIMATELY  ENDED UP BEING KILLED.

IT STILL RANKS TODAY AS THE  SECOND DEADLIEST MINE DISASTER IN U.S. HISTORY.

THE SOURCE OF IT WAS THAT DURING THAT AFTERNOON, WHILE  THIS WAS A VIOLATION OF STATE LAW AND COMPANY RULES, ONE OF  THE MINERS WAS WORKING, YOU KNOW, PUT HIS BLASTING POWDER  INTO THE WALL AND DECIDED TO IGNITE IT WHILE EVERYONE WAS  IN THE MINE.

THAT REALLY WASN'T THAT  UNCOMMON.

THE MINERS IN THOSE DAYS FOR  THE MOST PART ALL WERE PAID BY THE TON, BASED ON HOW MUCH  COAL THEY WERE ABLE TO TAKE OUT OF THE MINE.

AND SO THIS GENTLEMAN OBVIOUSLY WAS JUST TRYING TO,  YOU KNOW, JUST DEEPEN HIS LOAD SO HE WOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE  MORE MONEY WHEN THE COAL WENT TO THE TIPPLE.

UNFORTUNATELY HE SET THE POWDER INCORRECTLY AND WHAT  HAPPENED WAS INSTEAD OF THE CHARGE GOING INTO THE WALL AND  BLOWING OUT THE COAL SO HE COULD PUT IT INTO THE CART, IT  BLEW OUT INTO THE MINE AND IGNITED THE COAL DUST WHICH IS  VERY, VERY FLAMMABLE AND AT THAT POINT THERE WAS -- IT WAS  BECOMING MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAT THAT WAS A SAFETY ISSUE  IN COAL MINES IN AMERICA.

>> Russell: HOW DID THE NATION  RESPOND TO THE DISASTER?

>> Nick: IT WAS A NATIONAL  NEWS STORY, I MEAN, THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, CARRIED IN PAPERS,  YOU KNOW, BACK ON THE EAST COAST THROUGH THE MIDWEST AND  BECAUSE AT THE TIME MOST OF THE MINERS WERE EUROPEAN  IMMIGRANTS THAT HAD COME HERE DURING THE MASSIVE WAVE OF  IMMIGRATION BETWEEN 1880 AND 1920, YOU KNOW, NEWS OF THE  DISASTER ALSO WENT BACK TO THEIR VILLAGES AND THE  NEWSPAPERS IN ITALY, AND OTHER COUNTRIES CARRIED NEWS OF THE  DISASTER.

>> Russell: 10 YEARS LATER,  THERE WAS ANOTHER DISASTER.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> Nick: IN THAT CASE THEY WERE USING ELECTRIC CARS TO  TRANSPORT THE COAL AND THE MINERS BACK AND FORTH INTO THE  MINES AND FOR REASONS THAT ARE STILL UNKNOWN, THE CAR ENDED  UP GOING OFF THE TRACK, HIT A POLE THAT CARRIED THE FEEDER  LINE, THE WIRES UP TOP, THE WIRES CAME DOWN, HIT THE IRON  CAR AND CREATED A SPARK AND THAT AGAIN IGNITED THE COAL  DUST IN THE MINE.

IN THAT CASE, 120 PEOPLE ENDED  UP DYING.

TWO GENTLEMEN ALMOST  MIRACULOUSLY SURVIVED WALKING OUT OF THE MINE 16 HOURS LATER  UNHURT.

>> Russell: YOU MENTIONED THIS  WAS A PLACE OF EUROPEAN IMMIGRATION ALSO A PLACE FOR  LATINO AND NATIVE AMERICANS.

IT WAS A MULTI NATIONAL RACIAL  PLACE AND ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS RESIDENTS THERE WAS OF  COURSE DOLORES HUERTA.

SHE WAS BORN IN THIS TOWN.

WHAT WAS LIFE LIKE FOR HER WHEN SHE WAS BORN IN THIS TOWN  AND HER FAMILY?

>> Nick: WAS SHE THERE FOR A  RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

SHE TOLD ME THAT HER FAMILY -- SHE MOVED -- HER MOTHER AND  HER SIBLINGS AFTER HER PARENTS SEPARATED, WHEN SHE WAS IN  FIRST GRADE, BETWEEN CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR'S DURING THE  VACATION.

SHE HAD GONE BACK A COUPLE OF  TIMES AS A TEENAGER, AND WHEN I TALKED TO HER ABOUT THAT,  BECAUSE I KNEW THAT SHE REALLY DIDN'T REMEMBER ANYTHING MUCH  FROM BEING A CHILD, AND SHE SAID SHE ALWAYS GOT A SENSE  OF, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A HAPPY PLACE AND OBVIOUSLY WORKING  COAL MINES IS AN INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS PROFESSION.

AT THE TIME, ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AROUND BUT, YOU  KNOW, TO HER THIS WAS A PLACE WHERE MANY NATIONALITIES CAME  TOGETHER, 16, 17 DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAD WORKERS  THERE.

BUT, THEY ALL SEEMED TO BE  ABLE TO WORK WITH A SENSE OF HARMONY, AND CREATED A KIND OF  AN EARLY COSMOPOLITAN UNITED NATIONS KIND OF COMMUNITY THAT  YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, EITHER WERE BORN THERE,  WENT TO SCHOOL THERE, YOU KNOW, OR HAD FAMILY MEMBERS  WHO WERE THERE, AND THEY ALL TELL THE HAPPIEST STORIES THAT  YOU CAN IMAGINE.

>> Russell: THE MINE  EVENTUALLY CLOSED, THE MINING  TOWN?

>> Nick: OVER A PERIOD OF TIME  CONDITIONS CHANGED.

YOU KNOW.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED DOING RESEARCH, IT WAS ALMOST LIKE  THE OLD MILLER LIGHT COMMERCIAL, TASTES GREAT LESS  FILLING.

ON THE ONE SIDE THERE WAS  LABOR STRIFE.

ON THE OTHER SIDE IT WAS JUST  THE CHANGING CONDITIONS AND AS USUALLY THE CASE, THE TRUTH  WAS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.

ONE THE MORE SIGNIFICANT  FACTORS WAS THAT AT THAT POINT IN TIME THE MAJORED CUSTOMER  WHO WAS THE SOUTHERN PACIFIC RAILROAD AND AROUND THE LATE  40S, WHEN SOUTHERN PACIFIC CONVERTED FROM USING COAL TO  DIESEL, AND THAT PRETTY MUCH WIPED OUT THEIR MAJOR CUSTOMER  AT THE TIME.

>> Russell: IT HAS BEEN 75  YEARS SINCE THIS TOWN CLOSED.

WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO WRITE  THIS BOOK?

>> Nick: I MOVED TO  ALBUQUERQUE IN JUNE OF 2013 TO TAKE A JOB AT THE JOURNAL, MY  WIFE SUSAN AND I CAME OUT HERE.

IT TURNS OUT THAT OCTOBER WAS THE 100 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF  THE 1913 MINE DISASTER.

AND AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, THE  JOURNAL, THE NEW MEXICAN, OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS ALL GAVE  MAJOR PLAY TO THIS ANNIVERSARY DATE.

AND THERE WAS JUST SOMETHING THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, I STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHY TO THIS DAY, IT HAS AN  IMPRESSION ON ME, BUT, YOU KNOW, I STARTED JUST EVEN THEN  JUST GOING ONLINE, DOING RESEARCH, TRYING TO FIND OUT  MORE ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, PART OF IT, I THINK, WAS JUST THE  SHEER HORROR OF THIS INCIDENT THAT OCCURRED THREE-AND-A-HALF  HOURS FROM WHERE I AM LIVING NOW.

PART OF IT MAY HAVE TO DO WITH THE, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF  IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE THERE AND THERE WERE LIKE THREE DOZEN  GREEKS THAT GOT KILLED IN THE FIRST EXPLOSION.

MY FATHER CAME OVER FROM GREECE SHORTLY AFTER THAT, NOT  TO WORK IN THE COAL MINES, BUT TO WORK IN THE STEEL MILLS OF  GARY, INDIANA, SO MAYBE THAT WAS PART OF IT.

BUT IT WAS JUST SOMETHING ABOUT THE STORY AND THE MORE I  LOOKED INTO IT, WHAT BECAME EVEN MORE INTERESTING WAS THE  FACT THAT WHEN I WAS DOING MY RESEARCH, IT WAS LIKE 70 YEARS  AFTER THE TOWN HAD CLOSED, THAT THIS COMMUNITY OF -- THIS  DAWSON COMMUNITY STILL EXISTED AS A, YOU KNOW, VERY ACTIVE  DAWSON FACEBOOK PAGE.

THERE IS A WEBSITE THAT IS  VERY VIBRANT IN TERMS OF HAVING SOME OF THE HISTORY,  EVEN KEEPING TRACK OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE PASSED  AWAY.

AND THESE ARE REUNIONS THAT  THE TOWN CLOSED IN 1950.

THE FIRST DAWSON REUNION TOOK  PLACE IN 1954 IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA, WHERE A NUMBER OF  PEOPLE HAD GONE AFTER THE TOWN CLOSED, AND THEY CONTINUED FOR  A FEW YEARS IN CALIFORNIA.

EVENTUALLY THEY CAME BACK TO  NEW MEXICO, AND SINCE THE EARLY 1980'S, THE DAWSON, NEW  MEXICO ASSOCIATION HAS GOTTEN PERMISSION FROM THE LANDOWNER,  THE RANCH OWNER, TO BE ABLE TO, ON THE SUNDAY OF LABOR DAY  WEEKEND, TO HOLD REUNIONS THERE.

AND IN THE 80'S I AM TOLD THEY CAME CLOSE TO 2,000 PEOPLE  WOULD SHOW UP FOR THESE.

I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO  MY FIRST LAST YEAR.

AND EVEN THEN, THIS IS LIKE 73  YEARS AFTER THE TOWN CLOSED, JUST SHY OF 600 PEOPLE SHOWED  UP.

AND, THEY COME WITH PICTURES  AND THEIR MOMENTOS AND TELL STORIES AND IT IS JUST AN  REMARKABLE EXPERIENCE TO SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS COAL TOWN  THAT HASN'T EXISTED FOR ALMOST 3/4 OF A CENTURY, THAT THE  PEOPLE WHO ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE,  THE DESCENDENTS, YOU KNOW, STILL HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW,  THIS LOVE FOR THIS COMMUNITY AND FOR EACH OTHER.

AND IF THERE ARE ANY DOUBTS WHETHER I WAS GOING TO PURSUE  A BOOK ON THIS, I THINK THAT PUSHED ME OVER THE LINE ALMOST  AS MUCH AS JUST TRYING TO WRITE A NARRATIVE HISTORY OF  THE TOWN AND THE TWO DISASTERS.

>> Russell: NICK, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> Nick: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Lou: THANKS TO RUSSELL AND AUTHOR NICK PAPPAS FOR ON THAT  CONVERSATION.

WHO GETS TO MAKE DECISIONS  ABOUT AIR POLLUTION IN ALBUQUERQUE IS IN LIMBO.

FOR WEEKS, THE CITY COUNCIL AND ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR TIM  KELLER HAVE BEEN AT ODDS OVER TWO BILLS PROPOSED BY  COUNCILOR DAN LEWIS.

BILLS DISBANDING THE  ALBUQUERQUE BERNALILLO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD AND  HALTING ANY NEW AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS UNTIL FEBRUARY.

AT THE HEART OF THE DISAGREEMENT LIES THE PROPOSED  HEALTH ENVIRONMENT AND EQUITY IMPACT RULE WHICH SOUTH VALLEY  COMMUNITIES PETITIONED THE BOARD TO CONSIDER ADOPTING.

COMMUNITIES FOLLOWED THE GOVERNMENTAL PROCESS TO  PROPOSE A NEW RULE AND THE JOINT CITY-COUNTY BOARD  STARTED HOLDING HEARINGS ON IT THIS WEEK.

BUT MONDAY THE CITY COUNCIL OVERTURNED KELLER'S VETOES OF  THE TWO BILLS AND DEMANDED AN IMMEDIATE END TO THOSE  HEARINGS.

THE BOARD CONTINUED TAKING  TESTIMONY AND IS NOW ASKING A JUDGE TO STOP THE CITY FROM  INTERFERING IN THE BOARD'S LEGAL RULE-MAKING PROCESS.

THE BOARD'S REQUEST TO THE SECOND JUDICIAL COURT NOTES  LEWIS' BUSINESS INTERESTS IN THE SOUTH VALLEY AND ASSERTS  THAT THE CITY'S ACTIONS HAVE RAISED SERIOUS CIVIL RIGHTS  CONCERNS BY, QUOTE, HINDERING THE RIGHT TO A FAIR HEARING.

OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS WILL KEEP FOLLOWING THE  ISSUE WHICH HAS IMPLICATIONS EVEN BEYOND THE METRO AREA.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>>Funding for New Mexico  in Focus provided by Viewers Like You.