announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is provided in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Foundation Fund, Merit Medical, and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report."

Our panel of experts breaks down what to expect from upcoming state party conventions.

Which incumbents face a primary challenge or could be knocked out of the race completely?

How has early campaign spending influenced voters?

And what major issues will impact this year's election?

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason Perry: Good evening, and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, Director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week we have Leah Murray, Director of the Walker Institute of Politics and Public Service at Weber State University; Saige Miller, politics reporter for KUER; and Rod Arquette, host of "The Rod Arquette Show" on KNRS.

Thank you for being with us this evening.

This is gonna be a big weekend in politics, big for the state of Utah.

This is our Utah draft.

This is a will you accept this rose weekend for us in the state of Utah, and there are a lot of big races.

I wanna talk about what's going to happen.

The Republicans and the Democrats both having their state conventions.

Leah, let's start talking about these conventions.

First of all, how big of a deal are they still in Utah politics?

Leah Murray: I think they're a huge deal, right?

So, I think--but let me be clear, I think they're not necessarily a huge deal as to who's going to be on the ballot in November, right?

I think that the signature gathering phase and the people who have done that a little bit makes those races where there's someone on the ballot guaranteed in a primary, makes a convention a little less, you know, predictive, does that make sense, of what's going to be on the ballot in November.

But it's very important in that if you were signature gathering, you may have offended people who are delegates who are then going to play a role in what happens in the primary going forward.

But it's also very important for the races where people did not gather signatures, so we do have some races doing that.

And then it's, I think, really important in terms of these really interested in politics people getting together in a room and having a conversation.

Jason Perry: Yes, Saige, talk about this for a moment, because it's a lot of power in this particular group, particularly for those that did not get signatures.

But because sometimes they don't like the candidates, you might see some booing, we might see some of that this weekend.

Why do people--these candidates still say, "I'm going, even if I know I might get booed."

Saige Miller: These are the super fans of politics who really love to be involved in this level of decision making of who's going to be on the ballot for their nominee.

What we've traditionally seen is that delegates are usually more conservative, but, like, this is their Super Bowl, right?

Like this is what they live for, they're very happy to essentially duke it out with other delegates, try to help sway other delegates to go the way that they want to go.

And it's--if you--I've never been to a nominating convention, but I have been to other GOP conventions where you see people are really, like, amped up, they're riled, they're ready to have their voice be heard in a different way.

If it's not just also influencing state politics, it's the party politics at a--at the--it's at the State Central Committee discussions that they have as well of trying to figure out where the party is going to go, where do they stand, and, like, how they want to sway certain Republican candidates to be participating in this kind of, like, caucus or convention system.

I will say though, Leah, while it is very important, we've seen the Utah legislature try to make it more important, because it kind of seems like it's dwindling down on the influence that it has on the electorate as a whole.

We've seen the GOP Party Chair Rob Axson say that the caucus for the presidential preference poll in the caucus was a very good temperature, or statistically significant, of where the base is at.

And I don't know if that's necessarily true anymore, especially when you have people going the signature gathering route to try and appeal to somebody who is not going to spend their Saturday, literally their entire Saturday, with a bunch of fellow Republicans duking it out of, like, who's going to be on the ballot.

It's made it a little bit more accessible, but I think some Republicans who very believe very strongly in the caucus system believe that that route has kind of tainted or made it not as important politically in the state.

Jason Perry: Rod, talk about that.

If you think those are the principles that you're seeing as well, you'll be broadcasting from there tomorrow as well too, talk about what we're likely to see and sort of the ebb and flow of influence of this.

Rod Arquette: To the delegates themselves, this is very important.

I mean, they feel--they feel that they have a role to play, and a lot of the delegates--and I talked to quite a few of them throughout leading up to the convention--if they do work at it, they are working their neighbors.

They're talking to their neighbors, they're saying, "Can you tell me the issues that you want?"

So, I think to the delegates this is very important.

I also think it's very important to the candidates.

Yes, many of them have now gone the signature route, but if they don't show up in front of those delegates, the delegates feel offended.

You didn't want to come, you didn't want to talk to us, you didn't want to share your point of view.

So, I think to the delegates it is still very, very important to them.

Jason Perry: A couple of rules people I think should be following that we should talk about for a second, Leah.

So, this is what people are looking for.

You can advance if you're a Republican.

You want--you need to get at least 40% of the vote to advance, 60% outright, you are the nominee from the party.

You could also get signatures.

For the Democrats, 45% of the vote to advance or 55% outright.

Can I talk about those?

Because it's different between the Republicans and the Democrats, and some of the Democrats are already talking about how they're not looking for primaries.

Leah Murray: Yeah, oh, that's interesting.

I mean, I think what I always say about the parties in this state, and with all due respect to the Democrats, is the Republican is the more fun party to be at.

Does that make sense?

Like, they are the cool kids, the party, the small, you know, they are the cool kids in this state.

So, to a certain extent, they can write the rules a little more exclusively, right?

And Democrats, I think, are very much trying to get people to come to their party, figuratively and literally, right?

Like, they're trying to be some place that people want to go, so they've got to write their rules easier.

Does that make sense?

Like, their threshold's gotta be lower to make sure they can get people in.

Saige Miller: I also think that it's essentially maybe a little bit of signaling of, like, unification, right?

Where you have, what, 12 Republican candidates for the US Senate race, you have 10 for the CD-3 race.

I may be mixing up those numbers a little bit, but you have a lot of Republicans vying for these seats, whereas you don't necessarily see that on the Democratic side, and while maybe some of that's because they would have a harder time winning, it does seem like Democrats are more united behind a specific candidate by saying, "No, we're only going to put up one, like, this is who we're throwing our support behind, and look it, we're a little bit more put together than the opposing party."

Rod Arquette: I think the number of candidates is healthy for the party.

I think the more candidates you have, the more town halls you have, the more debates you have, I think it's healthy for the party.

You know, I wish the Democrats were able--would have more candidates enter.

I think that's what people want.

Yeah, we've got a lot of candidates for the Senate, the CD-3 race, I think that's healthy.

And I love people stepping up and say, "Yeah, I'll take on the challenge and see where it goes."

Leah Murray: And I also, just to his point, you said they were trying not to have primaries, which means they will never take candidates out to have a conversation in front of voters.

So, no civic education happens, and then also, the Republican side will be feisty.

Does that make sense?

They will all be, you know, working, and their chops will be better, whereas Democrats will have not talked about anything for months, right?

I think it's better to have primaries.

Jason Perry: Or, Saige, to that point as well, because we have several spots, and we're gonna go through them today where the Democrats have more than one candidate.

But when you have guaranteed primaries and you have a lot of people, you have this plurality issue.

You know, for the Republicans you might start getting candidates that are regularly the nominee or the person actually wins the race with, you know, 36% or 37% of the vote.

Saige Miller: Which is a question of, you know, does that actually represent your party?

But I think that's an issue that both parties are having right now too, of just who exactly is our candidate who we're throwing our support behind and how does that look more unified?

I think in a state, the strat that the Democrats are taking is going to look vastly different than the Republicans.

And so, how it plays out in a primary, I think that, you know, a lot of the Democratic candidates are people who maybe outside of the state were trying to influence will have a say in trying to encourage Democrats to go one way, but I also think that when it gets to the general, what does that look like?

I think that's where it gets really interesting for these kind of big statewide races like US Senate, like US House, is how do the voters break out where, you know, they may be voting in a Republican primary, but are they voting for the Democrat at the general?

Rod Arquette: Yeah, I think the issue that you brought up, Jason, about what--Cox last time won with, what, 36%, 37% of the vote?

A lot of people would like to see candidates win with 50% plus 1%.

That's what they'd like to see.

That may be a more unified message there.

And I think they're trying to figure out a way to make that happen.

It's gonna be a challenge, though, I think.

Leah Murray: I do beg your pardon, I feel like we just met and I'm gonna push back twice on this.

But, like, here's the thing about plurality elections, right?

So, I was interviewing someone in rural Utah, talking about women in politics in rural Utah, that, like, the ceiling.

They can get about 38% of the vote, so how do you get a woman elected?

Maybe you need a plurality election, because it makes it possible for do--for her to do it.

And I also thought it's a great unifying message.

Like, I like that, except that if you have a plurality, maybe you have incentive to reach across to different brands of your party brand, right?

And maybe even reach across the aisle at some point.

So, I think it might actually even be healthier for democracy if we're leaning into plurality results more often.

Jason Perry: Saige?

Saige Miller: No, I think we'll have to see how it plays out.

This is a very interesting year.

It's--2024, I think, is going to be a great case study for elections moving forward.

And where I'm really curious about is what does '26, what does '28 look like as both parties are going to see massive shifts because the leader of their parties are most likely not going to run for office.

Rod Arquette: They would have to go to 2026.

Saige Miller: I am looking ahead, I am looking ahead about how is this election going to influence ones to come?

Especially when party platforms are going to have to change.

Jason Perry: Well, let's get into some of these races, then, because all these dynamics we've just discussed are going to be at play not just over this weekend for the Democrats and the Republicans, but into the next elections as well.

Can we--let's start with the Senate race.

The United States Senate, Senator Romney is not running for office.

We have ten Republicans who have have--are up for candidacy and three Democrats.

Let's talk about this for a moment, because we have a guaranteed primary in the Republican side here.

John Curtis, Jason Walton, Brad Wilson--talk about that one right there.

And what we see, Brent Hatch so far did not get signature-- enough signatures qualified.

Rod Arquette: I know he's trying, and I know he's trying.

That's gonna be an interesting race.

A lot of money has been spent on this.

A lot of the money of the candidates, their own money.

Brad Wilson has put a lot of his own money into this race.

There's a lot of TV campaign ads that you see on the air now.

So, a lot of money is going into this.

The interesting one that I think has brought in a lot of MAGA-like support has been Trent Staggs.

Will Trent Staggs play a role in this?

We don't know as of yet.

We'll see how the delegates play a role in this.

But I think that's gonna be the interesting thing, but you've got high name recognition with John Curtis.

John Curtis is getting a lot of money, Brad Wilson out there getting a lot of money, so it's gonna be interesting to see, of those four or five, who survived.

Who comes out of the convention is gonna be interesting as well.

Jason Perry: What are you watching, Saige?

Saige Miller: Just to see who comes out of the convention.

While you do have those three candidates that have signature gathered, I think it would give them a very big confidence boost if one of them won convention, and maybe it might kind of teeter the race a little bit if Trent Staggs does win, if he does win the delegate base, because we do know that they are more conservative and that his messaging may be resonating a little bit more with voters.

We see that kind of play out a little bit more of, like, the ultra-conservative or people who know, you know, the convention is their Super Bowl of, you know, having a lot of rhetoric on Twitter about who they would like to see win races for, you know, governor or win races for the US Senate and CD-3 race, those races that are up in the air.

And so, well, I know that Twitter is not necessarily real life.

It is a platform for people to kind of, like, express their political views and what mindset they're walking into when convention does happen on Saturday.

And so, I think it will give them a confidence boost of the signature gathering--if one of the signature gatherer candidates wins convention.

And I also think that they'll just maybe pivot their plan a little bit about what constituents they're going to try and be vying for.

Leah Murray: Yeah, and I wanna just circle back on the point Rod made about money in this, right?

So, I feel like when Senator Hatch ran, there was commentary about no outside money, does that--like, you really shouldn't have outside money.

And then this round, I feel like, so we've got Trent Staggs, excuse me, he's got outsiders, Matt Gaetz coming in, Tommy Tuberville coming in to endorse him.

Kari Lake, right, exactly.

And then we've got money, like, PACs from other parts of the country flooding money into these candidates.

And then I just again, going back to your question, does the convention matter?

If we're spending all sorts of outsider money telling local delegates how they're supposed to choose, I'm just interested in that.

Does that make sense?

It feels a little different this time.

Saige Miller: And it does, and I will say, like, especially with delegates, it kind of depends on where you do fall within the aisle, right?

Because we saw kind of county conventions for Salt Lake County, for example, we got a Natalie Cline who is known to be kind of like a fire brand, but people appreciate her policies, they just didn't appreciate her rhetoric, and so she lost her seat.

But then we do have, like, does that kind of translate for people backing Trent Staggs, for example, you know, Matt Gaetz, kind of a firebrand in Congress, where there's a kind of split between the GOP about is that position to push back against the Speaker of the House, is that beneficial for our party?

Are they doing the work that they need to do, or are they making everybody's jobs harder?

So, you have that split within the party of where are delegates going to go on that?

Are they gonna go more of like the Matt Gaetz, "Please push back against the establishment, we don't like the way that Washington is working, we appreciate your voice there," or are they gonna be like, "Hey, you're making jobs really hard in Congress, and maybe don't oust the speaker again for a second time."

You know, of, like, which way are they going to go?

And I think that that splits depending on what county you are at.

Rod Arquette: Where they are, it's very hard to say where the delegates are right now.

Jason Perry: Okay, we'll watch closely.

On the democratic side, Leah, just a comment to--if you recall in 2022, the Democrats did not put forward a candidate, kind of got behind Evan McMullin, but this time they have three candidates.

None of them got signatures, so, you know, we're watching this one very closely.

Talk about that evolution, because the Democrats really put up some candidates for this race.

Leah Murray: Yeah, but man, so I'll just say this.

I beg your pardon, but isn't it brave to be a Democrat running for office?

Because the last time the party refused to endorse their own candidate.

So, a little bit, I'm going to tell you, if I were a quality candidate potential for a Democrat, I'm not sure I would run.

So, it would take some time for that party to re-earn my trust or my confidence that they actually would, right, like, back me if there was some cool independent person that they could choose.

So, I am watching that a little bit, because I think a lot of bridges were burned in that choice in 2022.

Rod Arquette: I think it's good that they--that somebody has stepped up.

I really do, because I think it was--three people have stepped up.

I think it was an embarrassment for the party last time that they didn't get a candidate and they would go with Evan McMullin.

And I think that was a bit of an embarrassment for the party.

For people to step up now, this is a step in the right direction for the Democratic Party.

Saige Miller: And I feel like maybe they do have something a little bit to prove here too.

We saw Caroline Gleich, who is a US Senate candidate for the Democratic side, raise a lot of money, raise essentially more than every single Republican candidate aside from John Curtis.

And while that may seem like people are, you know, rallying behind her, I do wonder even if you are raising that amount of money and while campaigning and money that you have in the bank to be able to spend matters in elections, does it matter as a Democrat in Utah if you are outspending Republicans?

And that's something I think remains to be seen as well.

Jason Perry: Let's talk about the governor's race for just a moment, Rod.

So, Governor Cox is running for re-election.

He's the only one that got signatures.

What are you look--what do you think you're going to see this weekend in that particular race?

Because there are people who are running pretty good to the right of him.

Rod Arquette: Yeah, well, it's interesting, I think, Jason, that I think over the last year and a half, maybe two years, you've seen Cox pivot a little bit more to the conservative.

I think when he came in first, he upset a lot of conservatives with a lot of things that he did.

The veto of the trans sports bill, the pronoun issue, and he, you know, in some circles he's now known as Governor Pronoun, and that still hangs with him.

So, I think he's pivoted a little bit.

I think it's probably enough, but we'll have to see where he stands.

It's gonna be interesting to see the reception that he gets at the convention.

That will be tell--they may just boo for a little bit, just to get it off their chest, but, you know, when it comes to voting, we'll have to see what direction they go in.

Jason Perry: Yeah, well, Saige, it's not unprecedented for a governor that has very, very great popularity in the state to lose at convention.

Happened to Governor Herbert in 2016, for example.

Saige Miller: Yeah, and I think that's where the signature gathering, where he's going to show up, he's gonna, you know, kind of play nice with delegates, being like, "Hey, I'm here even though I don't necessarily need to be, because I gathered signatures," and I do think that there's gonna be some heat for Governor Cox.

But I agree with you that he has pivoted, especially in his policy.

Not necessarily in his rhetoric, he's been--and I think there's a little hints in his rhetoric that has changed, you know, but he is kind of toeing the line of, like, "I am supporting the policy, but I'm not going to be the firebrand on all of these issues that you want me to be."

And when he does, it gets blown up in the media a lot for kind of the hot remarks that he makes.

So, where I'm more curious, though, is where the delegates split on Carson Jorgensen and Phil Lyman.

I don't know necessarily if Cox will win at convention, and if he doesn't, one of those two are, and I want to know--that will tell us, I think, a lot about where the delegates in the party stand specifically, between--while they may be similar, I think they're maybe vying for a lot of the same votes.

They do kind of have different policies, right?

Carson Jorgensen, while he may be very, on, you know, like the Trump train, he is very MAGA, I think he's a little bit more subdued about it than Phil Lyman is.

And I wonder if that messaging is going to resonate with delegates, if at all.

And I know that they do fall on some issues a little bit differently as well, and maybe those matter to delegates.

But, you know, we have one of them who has already picked a lieutenant governor and the other one, we're like, "Oh, who would be, you know, who would be your leading person with you?"

And so, you already have that of being able to message to a certain base about the issues that do matter to them.

Jason Perry: Interesting you mentioned the lieutenant governor.

We know Governor Cox is--will, of course, continue with Deirdre Henderson as lieutenant governor, but Corrine Johnson is the person that Carson Jorgensen just announced this week is going to be his running mate.

Thoughts about that.

She's the--founded Utah Parents United.

Leah Murray: Right, I think-- so, I love how you said--what did you say, that Carson was subdued, right?

I feel with this choice, maybe not.

Saige Miller: It's, like, a little bit more of the messaging, right?

Like, you can look at Phil Lyman's campaign video versus Carson Jorgensen's campaign video.

Carson was very, like, "I am a farmer, I am a rancher, I'm doing this for my family."

We've seen all of this go up, and then we saw Phil Lyman's that was very much so focused about pushing back against the federal government.

"Look how I've already done that in X, Y, Z way."

So, their messaging is a little bit different there too.

Leah Murray: But I feel like this choice for lieutenant governor.

Saige Miller: Yeah.

Leah Murray: Doesn't that--firebrand-ish?

Saige Miller: But still, it's more subdued in the sense of, like, we'll let her speak for herself, you know, like, her record shows it herself, and she's a good person to have, you know, in the seat next to me if we want these policies to continue pushing forward.

Jason Perry: Brian King is the only Democrat running for that particular race, has raised some significant money recently as well, but he's unopposed.

Can we get some of the congressional races for just a moment?

Let's talk about CD-1.

Blake Moore, Rod, has qualified, 7--over 7,000 signatures.

He's got two people.

what do you think about this?

Rod Arquette: He'll cruise, I mean, he'll cruise through this thing.

I mean, he's in House leadership now.

May, may help him, may hurt him a little bit with some of the delegates, because there's kind of an anti-leadership mood among some of the delegates right now.

But I think he'll cruise.

Jason Perry: Well, I think we have to talk about this anti-leadership sentiment just a little bit, because it's playing very much into the second congressional district.

So, so Leah, let's talk about this one.

Celeste Maloy, or Congresswoman Maloy has two challengers in the Republican party.

None of them got signatures, but something that sort of sent some shockwaves out there, Senator Mike Lee yesterday endorsed her--one of her opponents, Colby Jenkins.

Leah Murray: Right, I was a little so surprised and processing that a little bit, and one of the reasons why was Senator Lee had those town halls with all of the many candidates for Mitt Romney's seat, right?

And was like, "I'm just gonna talk to all these people, I don't have to be a part of this," which I thought was, you know, kind of brilliant PR for him.

But then on this, he's just endorsing this person, and I guess I'm gonna defer to Rob.

Like, what is happening there?

He announced this on your show, right?

Rod Arquette: He announced it on my radio show.

Jason Perry: Talk about that and some of the calculations there, because it's kind of a big move for the convention.

Rod Arquette: Well, he said, first of all, this was a difficult decision, and it's breaking tradition.

Normally he won't weigh in on something like this, but he felt--I think he is so angry as to what he's seeing going on in Washington, particularly with a vote earlier on the foreign aid to Ukraine and Israel.

I mean, even during that, while that debate was going on in the Senate, he stepped outside of the Senate building and put up an X video expressing his displeasure and his frustration with what he calls the firm, the leadership in the House and Senate.

So, he came on and he said, "Look, it's time to sound the alarm."

He said, "I'm tired of being polite.

It is time we find people who are willing to stand up and be a Republican."

That, I think, was a real core message of Mike.

And that's why he decided to go with Colby Jenkins.

Leah Murray: But then he doesn't endorse--I mean, like, so my question is, so why isn't he endorsing, right, someone against Blake Moore, who's in the leadership?

Rod Arquette: You never know, you never know.

But he is very angry at Republicans who are going along with Democrats and saying, "Why aren't we standing up for Republican values?

Especially when it comes to the amount of money that is being spent right now and on the issue of immigration."

Jason Perry: How much influence does Mike Lee have with those delegates?

Rod Arquette: A lot.

I--my perception is a lot.

I think you'll--when he shows up, there'll be a lot of noise and a lot of cheering.

He's a rockstar among the delegates.

So, what Mike says, we'll see how much sway it has with the delegates.

I'm aware of some research that is showing he has quite a bit of sway with the delegates.

Jason Perry: Go on, Saige.

Saige Miller: No, I just think that that's going to be one of the most interesting races to watch at the GOP nominating convention is going to be that now because of the endorsement.

I think we talk a lot about the importance of endorsements.

What does that mean for name recognition?

And if Mike Lee is very popular among delegates, how is that going to sway the electorate away from the incumbent?

And because Celeste Maloy didn't gather signatures, and so if she loses this nomination, it's the end of the road for her.

Leah Murray: Yeah, and, like, she got in because of endorsement, last year in the special election, the endorsement played a very important role.

Rod Arquette: And her argument, remember, one of the issues was during her election just last year, is she really from Southern Utah?

That was a question that was raised.

Colby Jenkins is from Southern Utah.

He lives there, he works there, so that's gonna be an interesting issue.

But you, as you mentioned, Jason, that announcement by Mike Lee yesterday sent shockwaves, and it's gonna make this convention a lot more interesting.

Saige Miller: I really hope they're good speeches.

Jason Perry: It does come down to that a little bit right there.

Rod Arquette: It comes down to the delegates.

Saige Miller: There's gonna be some people, you know, who don't care that much about this endorsement from Mike Lee, and I guess, like, what can you do to appeal to that voter?

And you got a short amount of time to do so, so.

Leah Murray: In this race, Glenn Wright is the Democrat, unopposed, watching for his name there as well.

I want to talk about CD-3 for just a moment.

We have nine candidates running for this particular race on the Republican side alone, and four of them have already received signatures.

Same analysis as before, Saige.

That's a pretty good number of people who have already qualified, and you've got many others on this slate here that these delegates are going to have to choose from.

Saige Miller: Yeah, and I think this is going to be another interesting--I mean, I just think it's going to be a good convention season or convention day, of where there's a lot of things to be looking at and trying to figure out where the party is going.

Where--what do these delegates, what do the people that they're choosing to be the nominee mean for this very, very devoted group of voters that do, I think, have a lot of, as you already said, influence within the circles that they circulate.

And so, yeah.

Rod Arquette: And I--it's gonna be interesting to see.

Mike Kennedy did not get sig-- did not gather sig--he is really depending on the delegates.

I know a lot of delegates who really do like Mike Kennedy.

So, it's gonna be interesting to see if he emerges as the leader and says, "I'm ready to take on new signature gathers in the primary."

Jason Perry: We see the influence, you know, different-- at different times with these conventions, if you get signatures or not, because it depends on not just that issue anymore.

It's--but still core, isn't it?

Saige Miller: Oh, no, because it was John Dougall is also in that, right?

Who is a former--well, yeah, I guess, well, he's right now he's still the state auditor.

But where--I think that's another interesting race where you have Mike Kennedy talking about all the things that he's done, essentially, maybe, you know, on quote, unquote "culture wars" within the Utah legislature, whereas John Dougall, it's, like, fiscal responsibility.

So, I do think that's going to be another interesting thing with voters of which one do you care more about?

With delegates, right.

Jason Perry: Yes, in our last 30 seconds as we start looking at the speeches, what are these candidates going to have to do to get this particular group?

Rod Arquette: Rod, I know you're there, you have 20 seconds on this.

Rod Arquette: Twenty seconds, I think they're going to have to talk about anti-Washington.

I think a lot of delegates are tired of the leadership that they don't see on the Republicans side, and they've got to talk about the issues that are important to people, and, still, the issues are the economy and immigration.

And we'll see what they say about that and how they're going to change things.

Jason Perry: Gonna have to be the last word.

Can't wait to watch what happens this weekend.

Thank you for being here tonight, and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is provided in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Foundation Fund, Merit Medical, and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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