CLEAR ♪♪ >> WE HAVE I IF YOU MEAN SHOW FOR YOU TONIGHT.

WE'RE GOING TO TALK WITH THE BLOOMINGTON OLICE CHIEF ABOUT DRIVING WHILE UNDER IT IS INFLUENCE OF CANNABIS.

HEAR ABOUT CHALLENGES FACING INDEPENDENT NEIGHBORHOOD PHARMACIES, AND A DUO OF POLITICAL SCIENTISTS SORT THROUGH THE NEW TRUMP INDICTMENTS.

>> ERIC: WE START TONIGHT WITH THE FATAL SHOOTING OF RICKY COBB, II BY THE MINNESOTA STATE PATROL EARLY MONDAY MORNING DURING A TRAFFIC STOP.

EXPERTS SAY THE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE RELEASED PUBLICLY RAISES COMPLEX LEGAL QUESTIONS.

HERE WITH MORE, A NATIONAL USE-OF-FORCE EXPERT.

DAVID THOMAS IS A PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE STUDIES AT FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY IN FORT MYERS, FLORIDA.

AND A RETIRED POLICE OFFICER.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

FROM WHAT YOU KNOW OF THE EVIDENCE, IS IT A CLOSE CALL AS FAR AS CHARGES BEING FILED AGAINST THE TROOPER?

>> FIRST, LET ME SAY THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME AND, YES, IT IS A CLOSE CALL.

I LOOKED AT THAT VIDEO BECAUSE I KNEW TODAY, I LOOKED AT THAT VIDEO LIKE 40 TIMES TRYING TO ASCERTAIN IF WE COULD SEPARATE CERTAIN THINGS AND WE CAN'T.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

>> Cathy: I'M WONDERING, YOU KNOW, OFFICERS DO HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK A PERSON TO GET OUT OF THE CAR, RIGHT?

THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

>> RIGHT, THAT IS CORRECT.

THERE IS A COURT CASE OUT OF MICHIGAN CALLED MICHIGAN VERSUS LONG WHICH GIVES THEM THE AUTHORITY TO ASK THE DRIVER TO STEP OUT SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DRIVER.

>> Eric: A KEY FACTOR SEEMS TO BE IF Mr. COBB DROVE AWAY BEFORE OR AFTER SHOTS WERE FIRED.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> TO ME, WHEN I LOOK AT THE VIDEO, I'M WONDERING IF, HEN THE TROOPER HAD HIS GUN DRAWN, AS Mr. COBB DECIDED TO DRIVE OFF, WAS IT THE JERKING OF THE VEHICLE THAT PORTIONED THE TROOPER TO PULL THE TRIGGER ON HIS GUN, WAS IT AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE?

SO THAT'S THE ISSUE AT HAND.

THERE ARE A HOLE OTHER -- WHOLE HOST OF OTHER ISSUES, LIKE WHY DEV HIS GUN OUT WHEN HE WAS ENTERING THE CAR, WITH THE INTENT OF HELPING REMOVE Mr. COBB FROM THE CAR.

>> Cathy: CAN I ASK, I WANT TO GO BACK TO MY QUESTION ABOUT OFFICERS ASKING A PERSON TO GET OUT OF THE CAR.

BUT, Mr. COBB DID NOT.

YOU'RE BLACK MAN, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, ABOUT MAYBE SOME FEAR GOING ON HERE, ON THE PART OF r. COBB?

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT BEING -- BEING BLACK AND BEING STOPPED BY POLICE, THERE IS INHERENT FEAR THAT HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS AND WITH THE MOST RECENT DEATHS AND THE MOST RECENT SHOOTINGS, YOU KNOW, THERE IS GOING TO BE APPREHENSION.

WHAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THAT -- OF GETTING IN AND OUT OF THE VEHICLE IS NOT GOING TO BE WON THERE ON STREET AND THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY COMPLY.

>> Eric: WAS THERE A LEGIT STOP IN HE FIRST PLACE?

>> SURE FROM, MY UNDERSTANDING, THE STOP WAS, HE HAD NO TAILLIGHTS AND THEN I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY RAN HIM, THEY RAN HIS TAG AND WHAT IT CAME BACK TO WAS THAT THERE IT WAS A WARRANT, BUT WHEN THEY MADE THE TRAFFIC STOP, THEY MADE THE TRAFFIC STOP BASED ON THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO TAILLIGHTS.

>> Cathy: YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD OTHER USE OF FORCE SITUATIONS AROUND HERE AND SOMETIMES THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER SAYS I FEARED FOR MY SAFETY.

CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT?

- WHERE WOULD THAT MIGHT HAVE COME IN WHEN Mr. COBB DROVE AWAY?

WHERE WOULD THAT COME IN?

>> I DON'T KNOW AND, YOU KNOW, IN AN ARTICLE WHERE I WAS INTERVIEWED YESTERDAY, I SAID IT WAS A CRAP-SHOOT BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE.

THIS IS -- WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FEARING FOR YOUR -- AN OFFICER FEARING FOR HIS OR HER SAFETY, THAT LITERALLY IS AN INDEPENDENT DECISION.

SO WHAT ONE OFFICER MIGHT SEE AS FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE IS ANOTHER OFFICER MAY NEVER SEE THAT.

I DO KNOW WHEN I LOOK AT THIS SHOOTING, THIS SCENARIO, I LOOK AT IT FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THERE WERE USE TONS OF TACTICAL ERRORS AND OFTENTIMES, WHEN YOU SEE THIS, THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE ARE TACTICAL ERRORS.

>> Eric: THESE WERE RELATIVELY INEXPERIENCED TROOPERS, DOES THAT COME INTO PLAY A ITTLE BIT, OR DOES IT?

>> YES, BUT IT SHOULDN'T BECAUSE IF THEY'VE BEEN TRAINED PROPERLY, IT SHOULDN'T.

WHEN I'M LOOKING AT -- TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THE TROOPER ON THE PASSENGER SIDE HAD HIS GUN DRAWN.

THE TROOPER ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE S IN THE DIRECT LINE OF FIRE, SO EVEN IF THERE IS A DISCHARGE, THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT HIS PARTNER WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT.

>> Cathy: HOW DO YOU TRAIN YOUR FOLKS WHEN YOU'RE IN CLASS?

WHAT DO YOU TALK ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO FORCE?

>> THE IDEA IS THAT OFFICERS SHOULD BE IN CONTROL, WHERE I THINK WHERE WE'VE MADE A MISTAKE FOR YEARS IS WE'VE TRAINED OFFICERS TO GIVE LOUD, VERBAL COMMANDS AND YOU SAW THAT, YOU SAW THE TROOPER ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE, HE HAD GREAT DIALOGUE AND HE HAD GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILLS.

AND THEN THE TROOPER ON THE PASSENGER SIDE DECIDED TO JURY JECT BECAUSE IT WASN'T MOVING FAST ENOUGH AND SO HE STARTED YELLING.

SO JUST THINK ABOUT BEING THAT DRIVER AND NOW YOU'RE -- YOUR FIGHT OR FLIGHT IS COMING IN BECAUSE YOU'RE ETTING TWO OPPOSING MESSAGES.

YOU HAVE THE HEIGHTENED ANXIETY OF THE OFFICER WITH THE FIREARM AND THE TROOPER WHO'S TRYING TO BE CALM ON THE OTHER SIDE SO WHAT -- YOU TRAIN THEM TO DE-ESCALATE SO IT SHOULD BE WHERE DEESCALATION IS NECESSARY AND THAT MEANS WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED, THE TROOPER ON THE PASSENGER SIDE SHOULD NOT HAVE OPENED UP AND STARTED YELLING, HE SHOULD HAVE JUST KIND OF FOLLOWED THE LIED OF THE TROOPER THAT MADE THE ORIGINAL STOP.

>> Eric: I KNOW OU'RE FAMILIAR WITH MINNEAPOLIS/St.

PAUL HISTORY ON POLICE OFFICERS SHOOTING BLACK DRIVERS, OR THE GEORGE FLOYD SITUATION AND I WONDER IF YOU HAVE AN OBSERVATION FROM A LONG WAY AWAY FROM HOW POLITICS AND PAST EXPERIENCE CAN GET INVOLVED IN DETERMINING SOMETHING LIKE THIS, CHARGES AND SO FORTH.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE PROSECUTOR HAS -- HE OR SHE -- HE OR SHE HAS THE RIGHT, THEY HAVE TO MAKE THAT FINAL DECISION, BASED ON THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION.

AND I WOULD DARE SAY THAT POLITICS HAS A LOT DO WITH IT BUT, ON THE OTHER SIDES OF THAT, I THINK THEY ARE BOUND BY THE DUTY OF LAW, BY THE COLOR OF LAW TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

SO FROM WHAT MY EXPERIENCE SAYS THAT THEY SHOULD -- THAT SHOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE AS LONG AS THEY FOLLOW THE AW AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN HERE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE VIDEO, NOT JUST THE VIDEO OF THE TROOPERS BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE VIDEO WHERE THEY SLOWED DOWN TO SEE WHEN THE SHOT WAS FIRED AND I THINK THAT WILL KIND OF HELP DETERMINE WHERE THEY GO FROM THERE.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.