♪ ♪ >> THIS IS WHAT THEY REPRESENT!

>> AMERICA IS TEARING ITSELF APART.

IT'S SAD AND IT SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME.

THE DIVIDE IS FER EVERYWHERE.

LET'S JUST LOOK AT MY HOMETOWN, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY.

I'VE BEEN MAKING DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT LOUISVILLE FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS AND I CAN'T REMEMBER A TIME WHEN THERE HAS BEEN MORE ANGER AND LESS TRUST.

WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?

TRYING TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION, I STARTED WITH THE BASICS.

WHO ARE WE?

WHAT IS IT THAT DEFINES US AS A COMMUNITY?

MAYBE IT'S GEE GEOGRAPHY OR BUSINESS.

HOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES?

IS IT ABOUT GOING TO CHURCH OR NOT.

VOTING.

RED OR BLUE OR TO HELL WITH ALL OF THEM.

DO WE SUPPORT THE PLACES THAT OPEN DOORS FOR ALL OF US?

HOW ARE WE WITH CHARITIES?

BLA'S THE MURDER RATE, DIVORCE RATE, DROPOUT RATE.

THE MAYOR SAYS WE ARE A COMPASSIONATE CITY.

ARE WE?

THEN WE HAD THEN I HAD THIS THOUGHT.

COULD OUR PUBLIC ART HOLD THE ANSWER?

LOOK AROUND.

WHAT HAS BEEN CHOSEN TO REPRESENT US, TO BE OUR SYMBOL?

THEN ONCE IT'S CHOSEN, WHAT ARE WE LIKE, DISLIKE, VANDALIZE?

OR JUST PUT IN HIDING SOMEWHERE.

IS THIS ART REALLY A SORT OF ERROR RORSHACK TEST FOR WHO WE ARE?

LET'S TRY TO AGREE ON THIS.

AS A COMMUNITY, WE HAVE A CHECKERED PAST WITH OUR PUBLIC ART.

YOU SEE I WAS THERE THE DAY THEY INSTALLED THE DERBY CLOCK.

REMEMBER THE DERBY CLOCK?

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING PEOPLE BACK DOWNTOWN.

WE LOVED IT AND THEN WE DIDN'T.

NOW THE CLOCK IS IN STORAGE AND I DON'T THINK IT'S COMING OUT ANY TIME SOON.

THEN, JUMP AHEAD TO THE 1980s.

I WAS THERE THE NIGHT THE FALSE FOUNTAIN LIFTED UP.

THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE OUR CITY'S SYMBOL.

MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN THE ST. LOUIS ARCH WE WERE TOLD.

THEN IT BROKE DOWN TOO MUCH AND IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE AS HIGH AS ADVERTISED.

BUT TO BE FAIR, THAT WAS ALL ABOUT PERSPECTIVE.

FRANKLY, WE JUST SEEM TO BE EMBARRASSED BY IT.

A CLOCK.

A FOUNTAIN?

THOSE WERE SIMPLER TIMES.

THESE DAYS WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT STATUES AND WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT US.

YEAH, I KNOW THAT'S WHAT SET THINGS OFF IN CHARLOTTESVILLE AND ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, BUT WHY LOUISVILLE?

>> I ALWAYS BEGIN INSCRIBING THE CITY BY POINTING OUT WHAT PEOPLE CALL THE NORTHERN MOST SOUTHERN CITY AND SOME PEOPLE CALL IT THE NORTHERN MOST SOUTHERN MOST NORTHERN CITY.

THAT INTERESTED ME BECAUSE QUESTIONS LIKE THIS ONE, THE QUESTION ABOUT THE STATUES TAKE ON A UNIQUE AM I GO GUT-- AMBIGUITY THERE AND THAT GOES BACK, I GUESS, TO THE WHOLE PROBLEM OF KENTUCKY AND THE CIVIL WAR AS A BORDER STATE, WHERE THE BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER THING WAS NOT A CLICHE.

>> THAT'S JOHN JEREMIAH SULLIVAN, ONCE FROM LOUISVILLE LIVING IN WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA.

JOHN IS QUITE A WRITER KNOWN NATIONALLY FOR HIS KEEN OBSERVATIONS ON THE QUIRKS OF HUMAN NATURE.

HE IS RIGHT ABOUT OUR IN BETWEENNESS, IF BY IN BETWEEN HE MEANS A TOWNS TRYING TO TURN THE PAGE ON ITS PAST.

A TOWN SEARCHING FOR A FULLER SENSE OF COMMUNITY.

MAYBE THE STATUE'S DEBATE CAN GET LOUISVILLE OUT FROM IN BETWEEN AND SHED SOME LIGHT WHO WE REALLY ARE OR WANT TO BE?

THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MINUTE.

WITH A STATUE YOU ARE STAYING SAYING TO THE FUTURE, THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU TO REMEMBER ABOUT MY GENERATION.

HMM.

NICE THOUGHT: MALCOLM GLADWELL SAID THAT.

AS A FAMOUS AUTHOR AND WHAT SOME MIGHT CALL A PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL, HE IS THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT STATUES AND PUBLIC ART CAN MEAN AND FOR THAT MATTER, SO HAS OUR MAYOR.

>> PUBLIC ART CAN BE VERY IMPACTFUL FOR A CITY.

IN MANY WAYS, IT REPRESENTS THE SOUL OF A CITY, IT REPRESENTS THE WAY A CITY VIEWS ITS PAST AND CERTAINLY ITS FUTURE.

THERE ARE GATHERING PLACES, ALSO, AND I THINK PLACES OF CONTEM CONTEMPLATION WHERE YOU SAY WHY THIS IS HERE, HOW DOES IT FIT INTO TODAY.

>> GREG FISCHER IS IN HIS THIRD TERP AS THE MAYOR OF LOUISVILLE.

WHEN IT COMES TO PUBLIC ART ON CITY PROPERTY, HE HAS THE FINAL SAY.

LIKE OTHER POLITICIANS ACROSS AMERICA HE HAS FOUND THAT THE QUESTION OF STATUES IS A MINE FEEL FIELD THAT NEEDS TO BE ENTERED WITH CAUTION SO HE CALLED ON SARAH TO HELP, THE PUBLIC ART ADMINISTRATOR FOR LOUISVILLE METRO GOVERNMENT.

MAYOR FISHER GAVE HER THE JOB OF RUNNING THE HEARINGS THAT WERE MEANT TO SETTLE ONCE AND FOR ALL, WHAT IS APPROPRIATE PUBLIC ART AND WHAT BELONGS ON CITY PROPERTY.

TOUGH JOB.

YOU'VE HEARD THE EXPRESSION OF HERDING CATS.

THERE WERE SEVEN HEARINGS IN ALL HELD THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY, OPEN TO ALL.

THE TOPIC: PUBLIC ART, OF COURSE.

EXCEPT AT EVERY HEARING THE DEBATE KEPT RETURNING TO WHAT TO DO ABOUT GENERAL CASTLEMAN.

WHO IS HE IN?

YOU WILL GET A RANGE OF OPINIONS ON THAT FRONT.

>> A REGISTERED CIVIL WAR MONUMENT.

I UNDERSTAND SOMEONE THROWING PAINT ON THE STATUE IF THEY WERE TOLD THIS IS THE STATUE OF A CONFEDERATE GENERAL.

THIS IS MISINFORMATION.

>> HONORING CASTLEMAN WITH A STATUE IS TANT AMOUNT TO HONORING GEORGE CUSTER AND ADOLPH HITLER.

>> HE REPRESENTS WHAT SHERMAN AND ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO WERE FOR A RECONSTRUCTION SOUTH THAT BROUGHT PEOPLE IN RATHER THAN TURNING THEM AWAY AND MAKING THEM ENEMIES FOR LIFE, THEIR FAMILIES ENEMIES FOR LIFE.

THIS IS NOT NATHAN BEDFORD FOREST, THE FOUNDER OF THE KKK.

>> IN FACT, CASTLEMAN WAS A MODERATE FORMER OPERATING WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS EFFORT SEGREGATED SOCIETY.

>> IT IS A COMPLEX HUMAN BEING.

HE JOINED THE LATE 19th CENTURY MOVEMENT TO REUNITE THE COUNTRY SO LONG AS NORTHERNERS RECOGNIZED JIM CROW PRACTICES AND THE FOLLY OF IMPLEMENTING RACIAL EQUALITY.

THERE IS A BATTLE GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY OVER OUR PUBLIC HISTORIES BECAUSE THOSE IMAGES SHAPE WHO AND WHAT WE WILL BE GOING FORWARD.

>> IT ONLY REINFORCES A WOUND THAT WE, ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS IN THIS NATION, BELIEVE WE ALL SHOULD BE TRYING TO HEAL.

>> BUT THE CORE ISSUE HERE IS THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF THE 1913 EQUESTRIAN STATUE OF GENERAL CASTLEMAN, WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS INTENDED AS A CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL OR AN ATTEMPT TO PERPETUATE BIGOTRY AND RACISM.

IT WAS NOT.

TOM PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THESE STATUES TODAY ARE SYMBOLS OF WHITE SUPREMACY ARE THOSE ON THE EXTREME RIGHT AND THOSE ON THE EXTREME LEFT.

>> THE WHITE WASHING OF JOHN CASTLEMAN'S HISTORY BY ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM, IS NOTHING SHORT OF RACIST.

>> AND AS A HISTORIAN, I CAN TELL YOU I KNEW SOMETHING OF THE HISTORY.

IT IS NOWHERE NEAR AS OFFENSIVE AS WHAT I SEE EVERY DAY IN THIS CITY PRACTICED BY ENTITIES WHO CLAIM TO BE THE FRIENDS OF LOUISVILLE AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

>> WE ALL LOVE LOUISVILLE.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE HERE F. WE NEED A STATUE TO REMIND US OF OUR HISTORY, WE NEED BETTER MEMORIES.

>> THERE IT IS, IN LESS THAN THREE MINUTES, WE HAVE HEARD THE ESSENCE OF THE CASTLEMAN DEBATE.

SEEMED LONGER, DIDN'T IT.

YOU SHOULD GONE TO ALL THE MEETINGS.

WOULD YOU AGREE THE COMMUNITY IS DIVIDED?

THE MAIN THING I TOOK AWAY FROM ALL THESE HEARINGS WAS THESE PEOPLE ARE WELL INTENTIONED.

THEY ALL THINK THEY'RE RIGHT AND THE NAGGING QUESTION REMAINS.

ARE WE REWRITING HISTORY OR TRYING TO TELL IT IN A WAY THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY CAN BE INCLUDED?

AND IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?

WHAT WE CAN SAY FOR SURE IS THAT A STATUE OF JOHN BRECKENRIDGE CASTLEMAN STOOD IN THIS SPOT, THE CHEROKEE TRIANGLE, SINCE 1913.

THE STATUE WAS EMBRACED BY MANY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AS A SYMBOL OF THE GOOD LIVING TO BE FOUND THERE: HOW GOOD?

WHEN F. SCOTT FITZGERALD WROTE THE GREAT GATSBY AND WANTED TO PLACE A CHARACTER IN AN ELEPHANT GANTT PART OF LOUISVILLE, HE CHOSE THE CHEROKEE TRIANGLE.

SOME SAY IT WAS THIS HOUSE THAT INSPIRED HIM.

IT'S A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH A NICE MIX OF PEOPLE, MANY WHO MIGHT BE CALLED LIBERAL, MOST OF WHOM ARE WHITE THE STATUE WAS ERECTED AT THE URGING OF CASTLEMAN'S POWERFUL FRIENDS BECAUSE OF ALL THE GOOD HE DID.

THOSE WHO WANTED TO MOVE THE STATUE POINT TO THE BAD.

YOU SEE, AS A YOUNG MAN, HE FOUGHT FOR THE CONFEDERATE ARMY AND DETRACTORS SAY HE IS NOW A SYMBOL OF WHITE PRIVILEGE AND RACISM: JUST THINK ABOUT THE NAME ITSELF.

CASTLE-MAN.

BUT CAN WE BLAME HIM FOR THAT?

HE WAS BORN WITH IT.

MANY IN THE CHEROKEE TRIANGLE WONDER HOW THEIR MAN ON A HORSE PUT THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS STORM LET'S.

LET'S LOOK ALT WHAT ANOTHER COMMUNITY HAS DONE MORE RECENTLY WITH PUBLIC ART.

THIS BEAUTIFUL PARK IS IN BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, A COMMUNITY ONCE INFAMOUS FOR RESISTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS ONCE CALLED BOMBINGHAM BECAUSE OF THE TERRIBLE VIOLENCE THAT MARRED THE STRUGGLE FOR EQUALITY THERE.

MALCOLM GLADWELL OFFERS ANOTHER INSIGHT IN DESCRIBING THIS PUBLIC ART.

HE SAYS EACH SIDE WRITES THEIR OWN STORY AND THE WINNER'S STORY IS THE ONE WE CALL THE TRUTH.

I THINK MAT COMWOULD AGREE HE IS NOT THE FIRST TO SAY THIS BUT THE THOUGHT RAISES A GOOD QUESTION WHICH WE CAN BRING BACK TO LOUISVILLE.

WHAT ARE THE SIDES?

IS ANYONE WINNING THE CASTLEMAN DEBATE?

AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

SERCHING FOR CLUES, LET'S GET BACK TO PUBLIC ART IN LOUISVILLE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE WHEN A COMMUNITY WENT LOOKING FOR A SYMBOL.

THIS IS BARNEY BRIGHT, NOW THERE WAS A SCULPTOR.

AMONG OTHER GREAT WORK, HE CREATED THE DERBY CLOCK IN 1975.

THAT'S THE ONE COMMUNITY LEADERS HOPED WOULD HELP OUR STRUGGLING DOWNTOWN THE WHITE FOLKS WERE FLEEING TO THE SUBURBS.

COULD ANYTHING BRING THEM BACK?

>> THEY SAID WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR IN A DESIGN TO GO DOWNTOWN IS SOMETHING THAT SAYS LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY.

YOU ARE IN LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY.

AND THEY ACTUALLY USED THE WORDS, WE WANTED TO STRONG ENOUGH TO BRING PEOPLE OFF THE EXPRESS WAY TO COME SEE IT.

>> SO MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THE BEST PUBLIC ART DOES.

ATTRACTS PEOPLE, BRINGS THEM TOGETHER.

GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO RALLY AROUND.

IN THE CASE OF THE DERBY CLOCK, IT WAS NOT THE ANSWER FOR DOWNTOWN DECLUN.

IT DID NOT SEEM TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DID NOT WANT FUTURE GENERATIONS TO THINK IT REPRESENTED THEM.

>> I'VE GOT A SCRAPBOOK OF LETTERS TO THE EDITOR WHERE PEOPLE WANTED TO THROW IT IN THE RIVER.

THEY WANTED TO BLOW IT UP.

THEY WANTED TO KILL ANYBODY WHO PUT MONEY INTO IT, RESENTED TAX MONEY GOING INTO IT.

ALL THOSE THINGS SO A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE IT.

SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, I THINK, AFTER IT WAS UP A WHILE AND THEY SAW THAT IT WAS NOT AS UGLY AS THEY THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE OR WHATEVER, I THINK THEY MAYBE CAME AROUND.

AND OVER THE YEARS, I GOT THE FEELING IT HAD MORE FRIENDS THAN IT HAD EARN MIS.

>> THE NEGLECT NEGATIVE REACTION TO THE CLOCK PAILED IN COMPARISON TO THE PUBLIC FUN TO FOUNTAIN.

BUT WE KNOW THAT NEGATIVITY WAS MORE ABOUT HOW PEOPLE THOUGHT THE ART LOOKED.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT GENERAL CASTLEMAN, MOST AGREE IT IS A FINE PIECE OF ART, AT LEAST SOME OF THE COMMUNITY'S MOST GIFTED SCULPTORS DO.

>> CASTLEMAN, ON THE OTHER HAND, IS A SUPERB PIECE OF SCULPTOR TUR.

>> I'M LOOKING AT THE TECHNIQUE AND THINK THIS GUY IS GOOD.

>> THE WAY THE CASTLEMAN PERSON IS SITUATED ON THE HORSE, AS IF HE IS RIDING THE HORSE, NOT JUST A PERSON SITTING ON THE HORSE.

THAT THAT PERSON WAS RIDING THE HORSE.

>> AS A SCULPTOR, I LOOK THROUGH A SCULPTOR'S LENS.

IT WASN'T SO MUCH A HISTORICAL LENS.

>> IT'S REALLY WELL DONE VERY WELL DONE.

BUT IT IS ANOTHER WHITE GUY.

I MEAN WE ARE REALLY SHY OF WHITE GUYS AROUND HERE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY DID IT ALL BY THEMSELVES.

IT'S A MIRACLE.

>> HERE'S DON YATES AT WORK.

DAWN YEATS AT WORK AND SHE MAKES A FAIR POINT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF STATUES HONORING WHITE GUYS IN LOUISVILLE AND EVERY OTHER CITY IN THE WESTERN WORLD FOR THAT MATTER.

BUT LET'S TRY TO GET PAST GENDER, RACE AND ARTISTIC TECHNIQUE.

IT SEEMS OBVIOUS THE CASTLEMAN PROBLEM COMES DOWN TO THE YEARS HE WAS A CONFEDERATE SOLDIER AND TODAY'S POLITICS.

>> BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, WHEN THE UNDERCURRENT OF THE CONFEDERACY THING CAME UP I THOUGHT OH LORD, OH GOD, OKAY.

WELL, ALL RIGHT.

UNDERSTANDING WHY THEY WERE PUT THERE TO BE INTIMIDATION FOR MY PEOPLE.

I'M OUT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT CASTLEMAN IN LOUISVILLE AS IT IS IN TRUMP IN CHARLOTTESVILLE.

SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT SURFACED THERE ARE PRESENT THROUGHOUT AMERICAN SOCIETY, INCLUDING IN LOUISVILLE.

WE HAD OUR OWN MONUMENTS.

WE HAD OUR OWN CONCERNS ABOUT WHITE NATIONALISTS.

WE HAD OUR OWN SUPPRESSION OF BLACK VOICES OVER THE YEARS, WE HAD THOSE SYMBOLS WITH US.

>> JAMES PRICHARD AND DAVID HORVATH FOLLOWED THE DEBATE CLOSELY, YOU COULD EVEN SAY INTENSELY.

AT MOST EVERY MEETING THEY MADE THEIR FEELINGS FELT WITH FORCE BUT ALSO WITH RESPECT.

FOR PRICHARD, IT'S ABOUT HONORING WHAT HE SEES AS FACTS.

FOR HORVATH, IT IS MORE ABOUT WHAT HE BELIEVES CASTLEMAN HAS COME TO STAND FOR.

>> NOW WE ARE LOOKING AT THE INTERPRETATION OF CASTLEMAN WITH THE LENS OF THE PRESENT DAY AND WHAT THIS SYMBOL MEANS, WHETHER HE HAS BEEN A WHITE WASHED CONFEDERATE SOLDIER OR OUTSTANDING CITIZEN WHO HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE PARK SYSTEM.

I DON'T THINK THOSE ARE THE ISSUES AT THIS POINT.

THE POINT IS WHAT KIND OF SYMBOL HAS IT BECOME IN OUR COMMUNITY AND IS IT DIVISIVE.

>> PRESENTISM IS A WORD BROUGHT UP A LOT THESE DAYS WITH THESE ARGUMENTS AND ESSENTIALLY, IT'S JUDGING PEOPLE IN PAST TIMES ON OUR CONTEMPORARY VALUES.

>> CONTEMPORARY VALUES.

WHAT ARE THEY AND WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO WITH THE GENERAL.

>> THAT SEEMS TO BE WHAT MAYOR FISHER IS WRESTLING WITH.

>> GENERAL CASTLEMAN IN PARTICULAR IS A MUCH MORE COMPLICATED PIECE TO EVALUATE THAN THE CONFEDERATE SYMBOL BY U OF L'S CAMPUS.

>> OH YES, THE CONFEDERATE MONUMENT, A GOOD EXAMPLE OF CONTEMPORARY VALUES IN ACTION.

SOME BACKSTORY WOULD BE USEFUL HERE.

IN 1895, A MEMORIAL TO THE CONFEDERATE DEAD WAS ERECTED IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUSY STREET NEAR THE CAMPUS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE.

THE ORIGINAL SPONSORS WERE AN ORGANIZATION KNOWN AS THE KENTUCKY WOMEN'S MONUMENT ASSOCIATION THEY WERE AFFILIATED WITH THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY WHO, IN THAT TIME WERE VERY BUSIY RECOLLECTING MONUMENTS THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH, OR IN LOUISVILLE'S CASE, THE ALMOST SOUTH THEY SAID THEY WERE HONORING THEIR FALLEN ANCESTORS.

OTHERS FELT THEY WERE ALL PART OF A JIM CROW ERA CAMPAIGN TO KEEP BLACK PEOPLE INTIMIDATED: OVER THE YEARS, EFFORTS WERE MADE TO MOVE THE CONFEDERATE MONUMENT; AT FIRST FOR REASONS OF TRAFFIC FLOW.

(HOSHS HONKING) (HORNS HONKING).

>> AND LATER, AT THE URGING OF CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS N. BOTH CASES, THE EFFORTS WERE RESISTED.

ONE MAYOR IN 1948, AN OTHERWISE PROGRESSIVE GENTLEMEN WHO LIVED NEAR THE MONUMENT ON A STREET CALLED CONFEDERATE PLACE, BLOCKED REMOVAL OF THE MONUMENT.

THIS SAME MAYOR IN 1948, PROUDLY WAVED A REBEL FLAG WHILE LEADING A DELEGATION OF LOUISVILLE BUSINESS ELITES TO MADISON SQUARE GARDEN TO WATCH A BASKETBALL GAME BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY AND THE UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE.

TODAY THE LOVE OF BASKETBALL CONTINUES BUT NOSTALGIA FOR THE LOST CAUSE HAS FADED, FOR MOST.

THE PRE-CIVIL WAR PERIOD COULD NO LONGER BE ROMANTICIZEED AS AN IDYLLIC TIME WHEN THE LIVING WAS EASY BECAUSE THE EASY LIVING WAS BUILT ON THE BACKS OF MILLIONS OF SLAVES.

IN 2016, THE MONUMENT WAS MOVED.

NOW IT'S IN BRAN DENY BRANDONBURG KENTUCKY OVERLOOKING THE OHIO RIVER.

WHILE NOW AN ARTISTIC TRIUMPH, THIS MODEL OF CONFEDERATE MONUMENT WAS POPULAR PRODUCED BY THE MULL DOON MONUMENT COMPANY BASED IN LOUISVILLE.

AN IDENTICAL VERSION OF THE STATUE STOOD ON THE GROUNDS OF THE CAPITOL IN RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA.

NEARBY WAS ONE OF THE YOUNG PRIVATE, THE FIRST SOUTHERNER TO DIE IN THE CIVIL WAR.

THERE WAS ALSO A TRIBUTE TO CONFEDERATE WOMEN.

CHECKING THE DATES FOR ALL THESE MONUMENTS, YOU WILL SEE THEY WERE ALL DEDICATED AROUND THE SAME TIME, THE LATE 19th AND EARLY 20th CENTURIES.

A TIME WHEN CELEBRATING THE LOST CAUSE OF THE SOUTH WENT HAND IN HAND WITH JIM CROW LAWS AND RIGID SEGREGATION.

♪ OH SUSANNE A, DON'T YOU CRY FOR ME, I COME FROM ALABAMA WITH A BANJO ON MY KNEE ♪ ♪ DON'T YOU CRY FOR ME ♪ ♪ I'VE COME FROM ALABAMA WITH... >> JIM CROW.

THERE'S THAT NAME AGAIN.

WHO WAS JIM CROW?

AND WHY WERE ALL THESE TERRIBLE LAWS NAMED FOR HIM?

>> FOR BETTER OR WORSE, LOUISVILLE CAN MAKE A CLAIM TO JIM JIM CROW, NOT THE LAWS, THOUGH WE HAD OUR SHARE, BUT THE MAN.

IT GOES BACK TO LOUISVILLE BEING A MUSICAL HOT BED, THE BLUES, JUG BANDS, RAGTIME, THEY ALL HAD ROOTS IN LOUISVILLE.

AND THIS MUSIC CAME OUT OF THE MANY SALOONS, TAVERNS AND THEATERS IN TOWN.

IN 1830, A STRUGGLING ACTOR NAMED THOMAS RICE WAS PERFORMING AT THE CITY THEATER, ONE OF LOUISVILLE'S FINEST.

RICE DEVELOPED A CHARACTER FOR HIS ACT NAMED JIM CROW.

IT WAS BASED ON AN ELDERLY SLAVE HE HAD SEEN WORKING AT THE STABLE NEXT DOOR TO THE THEATER, A STABLE NAMED FOR ITS OWNER, JIM CROW.

THE JIM CROW CHARACTER RICE INTRODUCED WAS AN EXAGGERATED AND DEGRADING CARICATURE OF THE MAN HE HAD SEEN WORKING.

RICE WENT SO FAR AS TO BUY THE CLOTHES OFF THE MAN'S BACK AND WEAR THEM IN HIS ACT.

THE ACT FEATURED A SONG AND A DANCE THAT WAS DESCRIBED BY ONE WRITER AS COMIC AND GROTESQUE.

♪ EVERY TIME I WHEEL ABOUT... >> TO SAY IT WAS WARMLY EMBRACED BY THE AUDIENCE IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

THAT NIGHT RICE RECEIVED 20 CURTAIN CALLS.

JIM CROW MADE RICE AND WEALTHY AND SOUGHT AFTER PERFORMER.

WHITE AND BLACK PERFORMERS TOOK ON THE ROLE.

FOR DECADES TO COME, THE JIM CROW CHARACTER BECAME A FIXTURE ON THE STAGE AND SCREEN.

THE ACTOR CAME SO IDENTIFIED AS A DEHUMANIZING STEREOTYPE, THAT THE JIM CROW NAME WAS GIVEN TO THE PERIOD OF ENFORCED INEQUALITY THAT FORCED RECONSTRUCTION AS WELL AS TO ANY LAW THAT DENIED RIGHTS TO PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T WHITE.

SO IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE IF ANY STATUE ERECTED DURING THE TIME OF THE JIM CROW IS EYED WITH SUSPICION IF NOT OUTRAGE BY THOSE WANTING TO MOVE BEYOND OUR HISTORY OF RACISM.

HOWEVER, DEFENDERS OF THE STATUE MAINTAIN THIS MONUMENT HONORS HIS ALMOST 50 YEARS OF CIVIC CONTRIBUTIONS AND SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH JIM CROW POLITICS.

THIS SOUNDS NICE BUT CAN A CASE REALLY BE MADE FOR THAT CASTLEMAN SUPPORTERS POINT TO THE NEWSPAPERS OF THE TIME WHICH CONSIDERED THE QUESTION OF ERECTING A STATUE TO A PERSON WHILE THAT PERSON WAS STILL ALIVE.

THE REPORTER WROTE IN 1913, IT WOULD BE UNFORTUNATE TO PULL A STATUE FROM ITS PEDESTAL AND CAST IT IN THE JUNK PILE BECAUSE OF THE HONORED INDIVIDUAL HAVING FAILED TO LIVE UP TO THE DIGNITY OF THE DESIGN.

BUT AS GENERAL CASTLEMAN IS NOT A POLITICAL HERO, WHO MAY BE DAMNED TOMORROW BY THOSE WHO APPLAUD HIM TODAY, AND AS HE WILL CERTAINLY NOT TURN TRAITOR TO THE PARKS, WHY NOT SET HIM UP IN BRONZE NOW INSTEAD OF WAITING TO PAY HIM THE COMPLIMENT.

THE FRIENDS OF GENERAL CASTLEMAN ARE TO BE CONGRATULATED UPON THEIR DETERMINATION TO HONOR A USEFUL CITIZEN WHILE HE IS AMONG THE QUICK INSTEAD OF ALLOWING THE MATTER TO GO OVER UNTIL HE IS AMONG THE DEAD.

>> IN 1913, THIS WRITER AND APPARENTLY MUCH OF LOUISVILLE, HAD NO QUESTION ABOUT WHO JOHN P. CASTLEMAN WAS.

A GENUINE HERO.

SO BUILD THAT STATUE.

BY 2018, THE CASTLEMAN IDENTITY WAS NOT SO CLEAR THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ART LISTENED PARENTALLY, CONSIDERED PATIENTLY AND CONSIDERED ALL ANGLES AND SUBMITTED A REPORT TO THE MAYOR.

THEY EMPHASIZED THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS PERTAINED TO PUBLIC ART IN GENERAL AND NOT SPECIFICALLY TO THE GENERAL.

THAT RAISED A FEW EYEBROWS.

THE KEY PASSAGE IN THE DOCUMENTS WE URGE OUR COMMUNITY TO CONTINUE THE WORK OF OPEN DIALOGUE NOT ONLY ABOUT PUBLIC ART AND MONUMENTS BUT ABOUT ALL SYMBOLS OF RACISM AND DISCRIMINATION AND HOW WE AS A COMMUNITY CAN MOVE FORWARD TO ADVANCE EQUITY, INCLUSIVITY AND HEALING.

>> WOULDN'T YOU AGREE IT WOULD BE HARD TO FIND MORE COMMENDABLE CONTEMPORARY VALUES?

MAYOR FISHER THANKED THE COMMITTEE FOR THEIR HARD WORK, CONSIDERED THEIR CONCLUSIONS AND THEN SAID IT IS TIME TO MOVE THE CASTLEMAN STATUE OUT OF THE PUBLIC EYE.

SO THAT'S THAT.

SOME CELEBRATED THE DECISION BUT FRIENDS OF LOUISVILLE PUBLIC ART DID NOT.

THEY WERE A NEW GROUP FORMED TO SUPPORT PUBLIC ART IN GENERAL AND AS YOU MIGHT GUESS, ONE GENERAL IN PARTICULAR.

THEY CONTESTED THE MAYOR'S DECISION IN COURT.

WHEN THE CASE WOULD BE DECIDED WAS ANYBODY'S GUESS SO WHO WAS THE REAL JOHN CASTLEMAN?

IT SEEMS IDENTITY CAN BE HARD TO PIN DOWN.

JUST CONSIDER THE SAGA OF THE DERBY CLOCK.

THERE IS A VERY INTERESTING STORY ABOUT THE DERBY CLOCK THAT I'M NOT SURE IS REMEMBERED ANYMORE IN LOUISVILLE BUT IT REALLY GETS AT THE WEIRDNESS OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AND THE DIFFICULTIES INVOLVED WHEN YOU TRY TO SPEAK FOR A CITY WITH A STATUE.

>> REMEMBER JOHN SULLIVAN FROM EARLIER?

HE POINTED OUT LOUISVILLE'S TUG OF WAR BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH AND HOW THIS CAN COMPLICATE A LOT OF THINGS, INCLUDING A COMMUNITY'S IDENTITY.

>> BARNEY BRIGHT, THE SCULPTOR WHO CREATED THE CLOCK, REALLY WANTED ONE OF THE FIGURES IDENTIFIED TO BE AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

HE WANTED THAT SEGMENT OF THE COMMUNITY TO BE REPRESENTED.

AND HE CHOSE A FIGURE NAMED BEN HARNY, VERY INTERESTING MUSICIAN AND VERY INTERESTING CHARACTER IN AMERICAN MUSICAL HISTORY.

HE PUT OUT SOME AMAZING RECORDING IN 1898 INCLUDING ONE CALLED Mr. JOHNSON TURN ME LOOSE, ABOUT A LOCAL POLICEMAN WHO USED TO BUST UP GAMBLING DENS.

GREAT SONG.

♪ ♪ >> THE SONG BEGINS ONE DARK NIGHT IN LOUISVILLE.

A POLICEMAN, Mr. JOHNSON BY NAME IS WALKING HIS BEAT, WHICH HAPPENS TO INCLUDE SOME VERY LIVELY BARS.

Mr. JOHNSON HAD A PROBLEM WITH LIVELY BARS AND THAT'S WHERE BEN MADE HIS LIVING.

>> IT WENT DOWN IN HISTORY AS AN EARLY INFLUENTIAL BLACK PERFORMER BEN HARNY.

>> THIS BAR WAS ON SCREEN STREET AND IN THOSE DAYS, SOMETIMES THE POLICE LOOKED THE OTHER WAY ON GREEN STREET, BUT NOT IN THE SONG THAT MADE BEN HARNY FAMOUS.

>> BARNEY BRIGHT PUT HIM IN THE DERBY CLOCK AS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF BLACK LOUISVILLE HISTORY WHICH WAS NOT A CRAZY OR MITION GUIDED THING TO DO.

I MEAN PEOPLE CALLED HIP THE INVENTOR OF RAGTIME.

HE IS A GREAT LOUISVILLEAN.

BLACK MUSICIAN.

BEN HARNY MADE QUITE A BIT OF MONEY ON HIS SONGS AND THE NEW MUSICAL FORM HE WAS EAGER TO TAKE CREDIT FOR.

GOT OUT OF THE SMALL BARS, TOURED THE COUNTRY AND A HIT ON BROADWAY.

Mr. JOHNSON, HE KEPT WALKING HIS BEAT.

>> TOLD YOU BEFORE, NO GAMBLING.

>> AND THEN PEOPLE STARTED REACHING OUT TO BRIGHT AND SAYING BEN HARNY WAS A WHITE GUY.

HE WASN'T BLACK.

AND SOMEONE GOT IN TOUCH WITH HIM AND SAID HE WAS WHITE AS A LILLY.

>> Mr. JOHNSON SHOWED NO MERCY TO THE PEOPLE ON HIS BEAT AND LIFE DIDN'T END WELL FOR BEN HARNEY EITHER.

MUSICAL STYLES CHANGED AND HE DIED PEN I LESS BURIED IN AN UNMARKED GRAVE.

>> AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BRIGHT SORT OF TRANSFORMED HIM INTO OLIVER COOK, THE TRUMPETER WHO WOUND UP PLAYING THAT ROLE IN THE DERBY CLOCK, BUT IT JUST SHOWS YOU HOW MESSY THINGS GET WHEN YOU TRY TO SYMBOLIZE OR SPEAK FOR A HUMAN COMMUNITY, WHICH IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THEY INVOLVING MANY FACED THING, WHEN YOU TRY TO SPEAK FOR IT THROUGH A STATUE OR A MEMORIAL, WHICH IS SO FIXED AND SO UNCHANGING, REALLY TO THE EXTENT THAT IT CAN'T-- IT CAN NEVER REALLY EXPRESS THE SOUL OF A COMMUNITY VERY WELL, AGAIN, UNLESS IT'S ABSTRACT AND OPEN, LIKE AN ARCH, LIKE A BEE HIVE.

THOSE THINGS DO BETTER.

>> ISN'T THAT A STORY.

BARNEY BRIGHT HAD THE BEST OF INTENTIONS BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE HIS HISTORY QUITE RIGHT.

ONCE HE LEARNED OF HIS ERROR, HE SIMPLY RESHAPED HIS STATUE.

I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHY HE DIDN'T GO WITH MUHAMMED ALI FOR THE CLOCK.

BUT THIS WAS 1975 WHEN ALI HAD NOT BEEN AS WARMLY EMBRACED BY HIS HOMETOWN AS HE IS TODAY.

TIME CAN SMOOTH THINGS OVER NOW I WONDER IF THE BEN HARNY LESSON CAN BE APPLIED TO GENERAL CASTLEMAN.

BUT REBOUNDED WHEN HE LEARNED HE WAS NOT ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

FOLLOWING BARNEY'S LEAD, SHOULD WE PUT A DIFFERENT FACE ON CASTLEMAN?

HOW ABOUT ISAAC MURPHY, THAT GREAT BLACK JOCKEY FROM THE LATE 19th CENTURY.

HE DID WIN THREE KENTUCKY DERBIES, BUT AGAIN THEN, A HORSE RACING THEME MAY NOT BE THE WAY TO GO THESE DAYS, CONTEMPORARY VALUES BEING WHAT THEY ARE.

SULLIVAN'S SUGGESTION OF A MORE ABSTRACT SYMBOL FOR A COMMUNITY HAS APPEAL BUT AT THE TIME WE TALKED, SO MUCH HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN.

I WASN'T SURE ABOUT HIS SOLUTION FOR REMOVING OUTDATED MONUMENTS.

JOHN'S PRESENT HOME OF WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA, HAS CONSIDER CIVIL WAR HISTORY AND THE STATUES TO CELEBRATE IT.

ONCE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE COULD BE FED RAT STATES OF AMERICA.

IT IS ERECTED ON A SITE ONCE CALLED THE SHAMBLES.

A THRIVING SLAVE MARKET ONCE EXISTED HERE.

JOHN DOES NOT THINK THE STATUE'S PLACEMENT WAS ACCIDENTAL HE ENVISIONS HOW SUCH STATUES CAN BE REMOVED.

I REALLY FEEL LIKE THIS MOVEMENT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN.

I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF POLICE AND SOLDIERS COMING IN AND TEARING DOWN THE STATUES OF THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN AN ALMOST SUR RIP TISHES.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN WILMINGTON AND WITH OTHER LIKE MINDED PEOPLE, TRYING TO MAKE THE TAKING DOWN OF THESE STATUES AND THE REPLACEMENT OF THEM WITH MORE MEANINGFUL SYMBOLS, A COMMUNITY ACTION THAT IS BLACK AND WHITE.

IMAGINE WHAT THAT WOULD BE LIKE.

IMAGINE THE MESSAGE THAT WOULD SEND.

IF INSTEAD OF THESE SCENES OF YOU KNOW, HEAVY MACHINERY COMING TO RIP DOWN THE STATUES AND MEANINGLESS STREET SCUFFLES THE DAY AFTER BETWEEN DIFFERENT CAMPS OF PROTESTORS, IMAGINE INSTEAD IF YOU SAW THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE MATCHING THROUGH THE STREETS SAYING THIS CAN'T STAND.

THESE CAN'T BE HERE.

QEAR TAKING THEM DOWN I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TREMENDOUS VALUE AND WOULD BE A REAL RECOLLECTFICATION AND REDEMPTION OF A LOT OF YEARS OF JUST HISTORICAL CONFUSION.

>> HOW CAN YOU NOT SALUTE JOHN'S VISION OF AN IDEAL SOLUTION.

YOU MUSTED ADMIT WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM IN 2019, HIS PROPOSAL SEEMED, AT BEST, NAIVE.

THE NAGGING MART OF ME THOUGHT OF ANOTHER TIME WHEN LARGE CROWDS GATHERED IN THE STREETS OF LOUISVILLE.

IT WASN'T OUR FINEST HOUR.

THIS IS A MONUMENT THAT PEOPLE OF LOUISVILLE ERECTED TO HONOR JENNY BOWMAN.

IT STANDS IN CAVE HILL CEMETERY.

MISS BOWMAN, 24 YEARS OLD, MARKED AS A MAID IN A FINE HOME ON BROOK STREET IN 1887.

I'M NOT RELYING-- I'M RELYING ON NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE "COURIER JOURNAL" ON THAT TIME.

THEY TELL QUITE A STORY.

ON THE MORNING OF APRIL 21, JENNY BOWMAN WAS IN THE HOUSE ALONE WHEN ROBBERS BROKE IN.

SHE RESISTED THEM, WAS BEATEN AND LATER DIED FROM HER INJURIES.

THE PERPETRATORS WERE CAUGHT AND HELD IN THE LOUISVILLE JAIL.

A CROWD OF LOUISVILLE CITIZENS ESTIMATED 15,000 MARCHED ON THE JAIL, WANTING TO DELIVER A SPEEDY FORM OF WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS JUSTICE.

THE "COURIER JOURNAL" REPORTER DESCRIBED THE MOOD.

>> MADNESS, ALL BUT CONSUMED THE BETTER JUDGMENT OF THE CITY'S INDIGNANT POPULATION AND HER FAIR NAME FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUSTICE HUNG IN THE BALANCE.

>> THE MILITIA WAS CALLED OUT, LED BY NONE OTHER THAN GENERAL, AT THE TIME, HE WAS A COLONEL, JOHN B. CASTLEMAN.

HE LED THE MILITIA IN STOPPING THE CROWD FROM EXECUTING THEIR WILL.

THE INMATES WERE LATER HUNG IN THE OFFICIAL MANNER.

>> SO IN LIGHT OF THE JENNY BOWMAN CASE, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE CROWDS IN THE STREETS SOLUTION, BUT BEFORE WE MOVE ON, SOME OTHER DETAILS ARE WORTH THINKING ABOUT.

THE SECOND MAN THAT HE HUNG, WILLIAM PATTERSON, ALWAYS MAINTAINED HIS INNOCENCE.

NOW PAT PATTERSON HAD A WELL EARNED REPUTATION AS A FREQUENT CRIMINAL BUT HE SWORE HE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS PARTICULAR CRIME.

AND HE DID HAVE AN ALIBI OF HIS ALLEGED PARTNER.

THE JURY CONVICTED TURNER AFTER CONFERRING FOR FIVE MINUTES AND HE WAS HUNG IN SHORT ORDER ON JULY 1.

HIS REQUEST FOR EXECUTION SOMETIME AFTER FOURTH OF JULY WAS DENIED.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IS ALBERT TURNER REPEATEDLY TESTIFIED THAT WILLIAM PATTERSON HAD BEEN HIS ACCOMPLICE.

YET AS TURNER STOOD ON THE SCAFFOLD, MOMENTS PRIOR TO HIS DEATH BY HANGING, HE REVERSED HIS STORY, DECLARING PARTY SON WAS NOT GUILTY AND SHOULD BE SET FREE.

THIS COMPLICATED MATTERS.

MONTHS WENT BY, THE NEWLY EVICT LECTED GOVERNOR BUCKNER CONSIDERED WILLIAM PATTERSON'S APPEAL FOR CLEMENCY BUT THEN REJECTED IT.

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, GOVERNOR BUCKNER, LIKE CASTLEMAN, ONCE FOUGHT FOR THE CONFEDERACY.

OBVIOUSLY A CONFEDERATE PAST DID NOT MAKE ONE LESS POPULAR IN THE KENTUCKY POLITICS OF THE TIME.

AT ANY RATE, HIS APPEAL DENIED, PATTERSON'S EXECUTION WAS SCHEDULED FOR JUNE 22, 1888, AT 6:00 A.M.

ACCORDING TO THE "COURIER JOURNAL," THE MORNING OF THE 22nd, A CROWD BEGAN TO GATHER AT 2:00 A.M. SALOONS WERE KEPT OPEN IN RECOGNITION OF THE NEEDS OF THE PUBLIC.

THE REPORTER NOTED WITH A RYE BIT OF OBSERVATION THAT WHILE PATTERSON WAS RECEIVING ONE KIND OF SPIRITUAL COMFORT FROM THE PREACHERS IN HIS CELL, THE SALOON KEEPERS WERE DEALING ANOTHER KIND OUT TO THIRSTY PATRONS.

THE REPORTER ALSO MADE NOTE OF PATTERSON'S UNUSUAL POSTURE IN PRAYER.

HE CALLED IT PECULIAR AND REMARKABLE, AN ORIENTAL POSTURE IN WHICH PATTERSON HAS NO EQUAL.

THE PAPER EVEN CARRIED AN ILLUSTRATION.

MEANWHILE, THOSE IN THE WAITING CROWD TOLD JOKES AND RECALLED OTHER HANGINGS.

THE PREACHERS WHO ACCOMPANIED WILLIAM PATTERSON SANG HIS FAVORITE HYMNS, AMONG THEM "HE'S A ILLEGAL WILL I IN THE VAL-- A LILLY IN THE VALLEY."

THE REPORTER NOTED HE SANG WITH MUCH VER VOR.

THEN THE TIME CAME AND PATTERSON WAS TAKEN FROM HIS CELL.

HE CONTINUED TO PROCLAIM HIS INNOCENCE AFTER WHICH HE WAS HUNG, EXCEPT THE NOOSE WASN'T PROPERLY POSITIONED ON HIS NECK AND INSTEAD OF BREAKING HIS NECK, IT SERVED TO SLOWLY STRANGLE HIM, BY ALL REPORTS TAKING 15 MINUTES TO DO SO.

ONE OF THE SEASONED OBSERVERS SAID IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST AWFUL SCENES THAT HAD EVER BEEN ENACTED AT A LEGAL HANGING IN THE STATE.

MURDERS AND MOBS AND BOTCHED EXECUTIONS AND BOMBINGS AND WHITE PRIVILEGE AND MORE WHITE PRIVILEGE GENEROUSLY SEASONED WITH JIM CROW.

THEN THERE IS THE CONTINUING REMINDER OF ALL THE CONFEDERATES IN OUR CLOSETS.

WHY?

WHY REVISIT SUCH DISTURBING MATTERS?

THERE IS THIS THOUGHT FROM ONE OF OUR COUNTRY'S MOST ADMIRED WRITERS, A MAN SOMEONE CALL THE CONSCIENCE OF KENTUCKY, WENDELL BERRY.

HE SAID YOU CAN'T IMPROVE YOUR HISTORY BY HIDING THE EVIDENCE.

ACTUALLY Mr. BARRY SAID HE IS QUOTING HIS BROTHER JOHN AND THOUGH HE WASN'T REFERRING TO LOUISVILLE HISTORY IN PARTICULAR , IF I'M UNDERSTANDING HIS POINT, IT COULD BE APPLIED.

I TAKE IT TO MEAN THAT ONE MIGHT BE LORE FIED BY-- HORRIFIED BY OR EVEN DENY ASPECTS OF HISTORY.

BUT IF YOU CAN GET BEYOND DENIAL, THERE CAN BE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT MOVED PEOPLE TO BEHAVE IN SUCH A WAY.

THEN IT IS HOPED, THAT YOU NOT ONLY LEARN THE RIGHT LESSONS BUT ACT UPON WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED.

IT CAN BE PAINFUL.

BUT CAN PROGRESS COME WITHOUT IT?

DOES STOPPING A LYNCHING MAKE CASTLEMAN A HERO?

ACTUALLY, WITH THE HELP OF THE MILITIA, HE STOPPED SEVERAL LYNCHINGS AND A RIOT IN FRANKFORT.

DOES THIS AND HIS OTHER CISK CIVIC CONTRIBUTIONS MAIC HIM WORTHY OF A STATUE?

AS WAVE' SEEN, IN HIS DAY, MANY THOUGHT SO.

BUT ANSWER THIS.

WHEN HIS STATUE WAS ERECTED IN 1913, WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN THE STAGE IMPULSE TO HONOR YORK, THE BLACK MAN WHO PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE LEWIS AND CLARK EXPEDITION?

ED HAMILTON IS THE CREATOR OF THE YORK SCULPTOR.

HIS WORK LOCALLY AND NATIONALLY HAS RECEIVED MUCH ACCLAIM.

LIKE SO MANY OTHER AREA SCULPTORS, ED GOT HIS START WITH BARNEY BRIGHT.

YOU KNOW, ED EVEN HELPED WITH THE DERBY CLOCK.

THAT EXPERIENCE, AND A LONG SUCCESSFUL CAREER, HAS LED ED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE TIDES OF HISTORY CAN BE HARD TO GAUGE.

STATUES EMPOWERED TO INSPIRE CAN JUST VANISH.

>> I GUESS THEY LOSE THEIR POWER WHEN TIMES CHANGE.

NEIGHBORHOODS CHANGE, CITYSCAPES CHANGE AND SOMETIMES STUFF KIND OF GETS PUT BACK TO THE BACK BURNER, I DON'T KNOW.

LET'S GO TO THE BELVEDERE AND WE SEE YORK.

ONE DAY YORK WILL BE OUT OF STEP YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T CALL IT.

>> WELL, BEHIND ME IS ED HAMILTON'S YORK.

THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES AND IT WAS PART OF THE BICENTENNIAL CELEBRATION OF THE LEWIS AND CLARK EXPEDITION.

>> YORK'S STORY HAS BEEN TOLD IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS OVER THE YEARS.

Dr. DARYL MILNER, PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF BLACK STUDIES AT PORTLAND STATE UNIVERSITY, DESCRIBED THE EXTREMES AS EITHER SAMBO OR SUPERHERO.

THIS VERSION WAS MOST COMMON UNTIL THE PAST 40 YEARS OR SO.

IT SAID YORK WAS PART OF THE EXPEDITION BUT PRETTY MUCH AS A LOYAL MAN SERVANT DOING MENIAL JOBS.

THEN, ACCORDING TO Dr. MILNER, IN RECENT YEARS, YORK HASY AMERICANED LARGER THAN LIFE, AS A SUPERHERO, A POWERFUL FIGURE WHO OVERCOMES NOT ONLY THE HARSH ELEMENTS OF THE WEST, BUT ALSO THE IGNORANCE AND PREJUDICE OF HIS COMPANIONS.

>> ED WAS STRUCK BY THE WAY THAT THE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURES SAW YORK, PURELY FOR HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE AND HIS ABILITY AS A HUNTER AND AS A LEADER AND EXPEDITION AND THEY FOUND HIM TO BE A VERY POWERFUL SPIRITUAL PRESENCE.

THEY NAMED HIM BIG MEDICINE.

SO EVERYONE WANTS TO FOCUS ON HOW YORK LOOKED TO THE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURES.

NOT NECESSARILY THE WAY HE LOOKED AS A PERSON HELD IN SLAVERY BY THE WHITE EXPLORERS.

THAT'S WHY WE SEE WORK AND THIS VERY POWERFUL STANCE LOOKING OVER THE RIVER WITH HIS ARMS BA BARE, HIS RIFLE, TOOLS ON HIS BELT USING THAT POWERFUL GAZE AS A HUNTER AND AS A LEADER OF EXPEDITION FROW THROUGH THE TERRITORY AND THE HEAVY BROW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEN ON A MAN FROM AFRICA.

IT IS A VERY POWERFUL PIECE AND WHAT IT CAN TEACH BUS PERCEPTION EVEN TODAY AND EVEN PERCEPTION AT THE TIME OF THE EXPEDITION FROM THE VARIOUS CULTURES.

>> SO WHICH YORK STORY IS TRUE?

IN THESE TIMES OF ALTERNATIVE FACTS, IT'S HARD TO SAY.

BUT I SUSPECT THAT, AS WITH SO MANY CASES, THE TRUTH IS PROBABLY FOUND SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN.

AND, YOU KNOW, THOUGH THE STORIES OF YORK AND CASTLEMAN ARE VERY DIFFERENT, IT IS INTERESTING HOW EACH HAS BEEN SHAPED BY CONTEMPORARY VALUES.

YORK WENT FROM SAMBO TO SUPERHERO.

CASTLEMAN, ONCE THE MODEL OF SOUTHERN MANHOOD IS SEEN BY SOME AS CONNOR ON HORSE BACK.

AS WITH YORK, THE CASTLEMAN REALITY IS PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN.

SO A QUESTION WORTH CONSIDERING IS, DID GENERAL CASTLEMAN SIMPLY FALL OUT OF FASHION, OR HAVE WE EVOLVED SO MUCH AS A COMMUNITY THAT WE CAN NO LONGER TOLERATE HIS FAILINGS?

ARE THOSE WORKING TO MOVE THE STATUE WANTING TO SWEEP AN UNCOMFORTABLE PART OF LOUISVILLE'S PAST UNDER THE RUG?

ISN'T THAT IN ITSELF A FORM OF PRIVILEGE?

OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND.

ON THE OTHER HAND, ARE THOSE CHERISHING CASTLEMAN AS A PILLAR OF THE COMMUNITY GLOSSING OVER A VERY OBVIOUS POINT, THE COMMUNITY OF HIS TIME WAS BUILT BY A JIM CROW CASTE SYSTEM.

IS EITHER GROUP PERPETUATING A LIE?

LOUISVILLE'S LIE?

I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THE CASE THAT MOST COMMUNITIES, LIKE PEOPLE, TELL THEMSELVES LIES OR HIDE THE EVIDENCE OF THEIR HISTORY.

WE WANT TO COVER PARTS OF OUR PAST WE HAVEN'T COME TO TERMS WITH: THIS CAN LEAD TO PROBLEMS IN THE PRESENT.

FOR INSTANCE, JOHN JEREMIAH SULLIVAN, CITY OF WILMINGTON HAD A WHOPPER OF A LIE.

IN 1898, A GROUP OF WHITE CITIZENS, INHAPPY WITH THE PROSPERITY AND GROWING POWER OF WILLINGTON'S BLACK CITIZENS, DECIDED TO TRY TO TURN BACK THE CLOCK AND THEY DID A PRETTY EFFECTIVE JOB.

THEY UNSEATED DULY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND FORCIBLY REMOVED OR KILLED HUNDREDS OF BLACK WILMINGTONIANS.

IT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS A CUE DE25, THE ONLY ONE EVER RECORDED IN OUR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY A MEMORIAL SITE HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED REMEMBERING THE VICTIMS.

THE AUTHOR OF A RECENT BOOK ABOUT THE INCIDENT DREW HUNDREDS TO A REETING AT THE WILMINGTON LIBRARY.

IT SEEMS MANY IN WILMINGTON HAVE COME TO TERMS WITH THEIR LIE, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THEM.

WILMINGTON'S LIE HAS BEEN CONFRONTED IN PUBLIC AND IN PUBLIC ART.

AND YET THE WORK GOES ON.

>> THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE.

>> LET'S RETURN TO WHAT MALCOLM GLADWELL SAID WITH A STATUE YOU ARE SAYING TO THE FUTURE THIS IS WHAT I WANT YOU TO REMEMBER ABOUT MY GENERATION.

FOR BETTER FOR FOR WORSE, THE LIFE OF JOHN CASTLEMAN SPOKE TO THE EARLY 20th CENTURY.

YORK SPEAKS TO US TODAY.

IN A LESS POLARIZED TIME, THERE MIGHT BE ROOM FOR BOTH IN OUR COMMUNITIES PUBLIC ART LANDSCAPE.

IN OUR COMMUNITY'S MEMORY.

NOT TODAY THOUGH.

WE LEAVE IT TO THE COURTS TO DECIDE.

THE COURT DID DECIDE AND SAID THAT IT WAS WITHIN THE MAYOR'S RIGHTS TO REMOVE THE STATUE.

SO AT FIRST LIGHT ON JUNE 8, 2020, HE DID.

THIS WAS NOT EXACTLY JOB JOHN SULLIVAN'S VISION, BUT THERE WERE SIMILARITIES.

THERE DEFINITELY HAD BEEN CROWDS IN THE STREET PRIOR TO THE REMOVAL.

BLACK BLACK AND WHITE MARCHING TOGETHER, UNITED IN PURPOSE.

BLUEVILLE, LIKE MOST OF THE NATION,-- LOUISVILLE, LIKE MOST OF THE NATION HAD BEEN CONVULSED WITH PROTESTS DUE TO THE VIOLENT DEATHS OF GEORGE FLOYD, BREONA TAYLOR, AND THE GHOST OF COUNTLESS VICTIMS OVER THE YEARS.

COMBINE THIS WITH A PANDEMIC THAT HAS KEPT PEOPLE COOPED UP, FRIGHTENED AND FRUSTRATED FOR MONTHS WITH NO END IN SIGHT.

THE INGREDIENTS FOR CHANGE, SIGNIFICANT CHANGE WAS IN PLACE.

SOME HAVE CALLED IT A RECKONING.

WHERE DO WE ABOUT FROM HERE?

ACROSS THE COUNTRY, STATUES ARE FALLING LIKE LEAVES FROM A MAGNOLIA TREE.

EAFERLTS-- NOW THERE IS A NEW GENERATION WHO WILL TELL THE NEXT ONE THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR WHAT MIGHT THAT BE?

WILL RECENT EVENTS BIND OLD WOUNDS AND LAUREN US TOWARD A BETTER LESS POLARIZED FUTURE.

IT IS A WONDERFUL THOUGHT BUT WE CAN DEGREE THERE ARE BRIDGES TO CROSS.

UNLIKE THE DERBY CLOCK OR THE FALL'S FOUNTAIN, THE CASTLEMAN STATUE WAS NEVER SUGGESTED AS A TOURIST ATTRACTION OR AS A SYMBOL FOR LOUISVILLE, BUT IN THE END, IT BECAME ONE IT STOOD FOR A COMMUNITY STUCK IN BETWEEN THE LESSONS OF THE PAST AND MOVING FORWARD.

SO WHAT DID THE YEARS OF MEETINGS, DEBATE AND PROTEST ACCOMPLISH?

TIME WILL TELL BUT WHATEVER YOU MAY THINK, THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT JOHN B. CASTLEMAN BECAME SO MUCH MORE THAN A GUY ON A HORSE.

LIKE THE OLD SONG SAID, HE WOULDN'T TURN US LOOSE.

AND NOW JUST A FEW MORE THOUGHTS JOHN CASTLEMAN ONCE WROTE THAT FROM OUR NEEDS GROW THE UTILITIES OF EACH AGE.

IN HIS AGE, I THINK THE UTILITIES HE WAS REFERRING TO WERE TANGIBLE ASSETS LIKE RAILROADS OR ELECTRICITY OR, OF COURSE, THE SADDLE BREAD HORSE HE DID SO MUCH TO POPULARIZE.

WHAT ARE THE NEEDS OF OUR AGE?

WHERE TO BEGIN WHAT STICKS OUT TO ME IS THE GREAT NEED TO ACTUALLY SEE EACH OTHER AND THEN RECOGNIZE OURSELVES.

HEY YOU, LOOK, ON THE SURFACE, IT MAY NOT THRILL EITHER ONE OF US, BUT YOU ARE PART OF ME AND I'M PART OF YOU.

IT SEEMS, UNLESS WE CAN ACCEPT THIS TRUTH, THE POLARIZATION WILL CONTINUE AND HARDEN TO A POINT OF NO RETURN.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE WE HAVE TO HANG OUT.

WE DO NEED TO REACH OUT.

IN THE PAST, WE BUILT MONUMENTS FOR JENNY BOWMAN AND MANY OTHERS TO SHOW WHO OR WHAT WE HONORED.

MONUMENTS ARE NICE BUT NO MATTER HOW FINELY MADE OR HOW WORTHY THE SUBJECT, THEY WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE UNLESS WE HONOR EACH OTHER.

THAT'S WITH ALL OUR DIFFERENCES, OUR SHORTCOMINGS, OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

THERE WILL BE CRISES AND THEY MUST BE ADDRESSED.

BUT THIS SPIRIT, THIS HONORING OUR COMMON HUMANITY MUST BE THE UTILITY OF THIS AGE.

YEAH, I KNOW HOW SIMPLISTIC THAT SOUNDS.

IT IS HARD AND IT'S OBVIOUS WE DON'T HAVE MUCH PRACTICE.

BUT IF WE COULD PULL THIS OFF, OR AT LEAST MAKE A BEGINNING, THEN MAYBE BETTER THINGS WILL BE MORE THAN WORDS AND A DREAM.

IT'S ALL ABOUT COMMUNITY, RIGHT?