[dramatic music] ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the department of mass communication, at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Steve Rude.

Steve, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Oh, thank you, Terence.

- Steve, you got your start in indie comics in the '80s, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you basically got your start, and then moved on to the big two of Marvel in DC.

- The time was the 1980s, which I remember very fondly.

Now, probably because it's a combination of being in my early to mid-twenties, which is always kind of a time of exploration.

And the place I was living was Madison, Wisconsin so I was on campus.

And everything that happened in Madison, was gonna take place on campus.

And I remember all the bands that came in there, the '80s bands, I mean, it seemed like everybody came there.

A lot of the big bands, a lot of lesser known bands that would come to the smaller clubs.

As far as I know, all those clubs are gone nowadays, so I don't know what happened back there.

But I remember...

There's something about, I almost call it a kind of a thing in the air that takes place as the decade begins itself.

I tend to see a lot of changes with a new decade, it comes about the 1970, 1980, 1990.

They tend to happen at the kind of the edge of the end of that decade and then onto the new one.

And I think that's part of what I mean, when I say something was in the air.

There was couple guys in Madison, they were a comic distribution outfit.

And these two guys decided through other people kind of taking the lead out of Illinois, actually, that it would give this a shot.

And I'm not exactly sure why they wanted to give this a shot, but they did.

Probably had a lot to do with Mike Baron, because Mike Baron he's about 10 years older than I am maybe.

And he was kind of the one that was in a hurry to get notoriety in the field that he wanted to be in, and the field that I wanted to be in.

So me and Baron, had met before the idea came for these two local distributors, to maybe get into publishing.

So Baron and I had a bit about a year before that on campus.

I remember it was this beautiful sunny day in August, and we met on these steps of the Memorial Union, and it was very brief.

I found out that Baron worked at an insurance company, and obviously didn't think that was gonna be the final goal of his life.

And I always wanted to be a comic book artist, that was my goal.

But also, I wanted to have the skills if I could manage them, and worked hard enough of an illustrator.

And to me, an illustrator is somebody that rises to any occasion artistically, and is able to pull off, no matter what they give that person as an assignment, they have to come through no matter what the subject matter is, no matter how unfamiliar they may be with a certain subject, they have to read about it, and be able to do it.

So, I kind of thought of that as the highest calling you can have as an artist.

But my first love was always comic books.

I grew up with all the Jack Kirby comics, and mostly the Marvels.

And I remember one embarrassing thing that happened later on when I was actually in the field, we were on this boat trip, the people from DC, Dick Giordano and my pat bestie took us on a cruise in the Chicago waters.

And they asked me about where I grew up, and I said, "I read Marvels."

I said, "DC Comics were kind of for kids to me, and I wasn't really into those very much."

So that's the kinda dumb thing I say on occasion, when I'm asked, I don't know how else to be, but except honest.

But getting back to the coming about of Nexus and Capital Comics, it was just one of those things, they talk about it as tiny or luck, but those two words are just words that people make up, because we always have to have a word that describe a certain thing in life.

But in fact, it's very intangible.

Nobody really knows what luck is, or why it may come about for some people and not others.

I've known people in the field that have been worth for 30 some years, and they still haven't broke it at all.

So I don't really quite know what the conditions are that makes some people lucky and some people not.

- Well, it's interesting, because you're talking about the various influences, and I think back to the Hernandez brothers, "Love and Rockets" which got sort of that underground vibe of the early '80s.

And your work also has that kinda feel, but coming from a completely different place.

So, when you start working on Nexus, how do you sort of go from being the comic reader, the aspiring artist, to becoming the guy who can deliver those pages and hit that deadline?

- Well, at first, I wasn't the guy that could deliver those pages and hit it on deadline.

I had a lot of timed up, I guess you would call it, being in the embryonic stage, where you would just kind of fort your weight through things.

I mean, the first thing that me and Baron did, is something called the "Encyclopedia Salesman".

It was a sort where a guy after the world blew up, [laughs] there was some guy that went out, and tried to sell in encyclopedia door to door.

That took me like a year to do 24 pages.

There was drawing, lettering, and inking it, later on, it was published by the Civic Comics.

I don't know, I think you have to have some kind of a bursting sense of energy that makes you overcome the things that a lot of people are fearful of, before they get into the business.

I remember a guy from First Comics being told...

I think one of the editors mentioned that he was paralyzed with hesitancy and fear about making deadlines.

And so he didn't.

And he kind of blew his chances for getting more renowned in the business, but he was a very good artist, but he just had that mental problem going on.

With the pressure, it's invented, the whole thing is a mental thing, and it's always, it's not real, it's invented.

So, for whatever reason, and people had these various neuroses, something inside of them that blocks them.

I didn't have that problem, thankfully.

I was a maniac, I just got up everyday in work, work, work.

- Well, it does seems like it would be kinda tough, because you talk about that sort of self-doubt, or the inability to just put the pencil on the page.

So, if you're laying out a page, and it might not be exactly 100% the way that you want it, but the publisher's asking for it, how do you sort of make that decision to sometimes say, it can't be perfect, it's gotta be good enough because I've gotta move on to the next part of this project?

- Apparently, I'm someone that doesn't behave by the normal rules of society.

And to me, everything I did it was perfect.

I mean, it was as good as I could ever make.

And when I would hear all these stories about people saying, "Well, I did the best I could under the deadlines."

I don't know why, but I just kind of bypassed that problem, not really knowing how I did it, but I was just never, never gonna let anything out that would embarrass me or not work up to my standards.

And I think that's kind of the way I thought about it, Terence.

You work up to these standards you have at the moment.

The standards may change a year from then, but for right now, when you're doing those pages in here and now, don't embarrass yourself, that's kind of the way I thought about it, get it done, get it done right, as good as you can, feel good about it.

And then take that feeling of have you accomplish something without compromise, and you just go into the next book and the next book, with the feeling of accomplishment, and you beat the odds.

It's kinda how I think about it.

- Now, you are one of those artists who seems to capture the essence of your influences.

You mentioned Jack Kirby.

And I think back to that, that Hulk Superman crossover that you worked on, well, you had a very Kirby ask kind of Hulk you had, sort of that DC feel to your Superman, and I think back to some of the work that you've done, I believe it was a cover you did for Marvel, with Spider-Man and Mary Jane that really had that Raimi senior look to it.

So, when you're working and you have these influences, how much of it is a conscious effort to maybe steer and push it in that direction?

How much of it is, this is just the way it comes out, because this is the way I've been influenced?

- When I get an assignment, like say, that's reflective of a Kirby type character.

All I can think of in my head is what I remember from those books.

So from there, I think I kinda imprint myself on the assignment, if it's... Like for example, you brought up the DC Superman in the Marvel Hulk.

Well, the Marvel Hulk is Kirby to me, so if he doesn't resemble that version, it's not the Hulk to me.

So, I very much kinda imprint in my head on what it has to look like for me to feel satisfied with the way the art's gonna turn out.

Now the Superman, that came from the original source.

For me, it's either the Shisha version or the Flagship cartoons, that super [indistinct] me.

And I remember when I was doing "The World's Finest", I was given an enumerated grief from Dick Giordano and Rich [indistinct], who was the editor, he was the original editor at Capital Comics, about this version of Superman that I did.

And I never quite understood that to this day, like, what is it?

25 years later, I still don't understand it.

But they gave me all this garbage about the look of this original Superman, everyone does sort take on him, and I was trying to bring him back to the original version and somehow, I don't know, it seems to be a pattern in my life.

The more I insist on doing a certain version, which it's not real to me, unless I kind of imprint that version that I've always known in my head.

They gimme a hard time with that, and I don't really know why that is.

- It seems as if an artist can get away with taking liberties with let's say, Batman's cowl and how tall the ears are.

But Superman, I know Jose Luis Garcia Lopez always would talk about Superman, how he didn't like to draw him, because they gave him grief about the curl of his hair.

So it seems Superman has that special place at DC Comics, but going back to a Fleischer or a Schuster look, that's like going back to your roots.

- I've never had a fan question the decisions I made about the lookable characters, only the editors.

But use that what you will.

I also remembered in the "World's Finest" that I brought the original Batman back, the original, original version, and they didn't celebrate [indistinct] I said, "What are you talking about?

This is the way he looked.

what exactly do you have against this look right here?"

And again, I still don't understand it.

These were editors of the books that were, that were calling me on these weird ideas here.

Geo Donald himself, who's been at DC for so long, looked at my Superman and said, "That's just not Superman to me."

I guess he wanted the Kurt Swan or O'Neill Adams kind of version.

But the idea of making him to look like, he did in the original version in the Fleischer cartoons, was applauded by everyone, except the editors, go figure, huh?

- Well, I was one of those folks buying the books and reading them and really enjoying them.

Like I say, you had that ability to sort of capture an artist and spin him your own way.

But you've worked with a number of writers, some on multiple projects.

So when you work with a writer, are you working with them during the conception of the project?

Is it something where they've got the script and sort of handed off to you, or do you have that input where maybe he's going to play into your strengths, and the two of you together come up with a better piece than individuals.

- I've seen part of it, a part about their Terence is.

Given the creative conditions that come about in the fact that every book is unique, the person that I'm working with, there always tends to be kind of a modulation of the standard procedure that we normally go through.

Normally, when somebody is doing a comic book, they get script, and they just get a script that's handed to them, and they're expected to turn it into 24 pages or whatever.

In the case of Mike Baron, we were in the same town, so he would drive over in his motorcycle to downtown campus, Madison, drop his script off, which was actually not a script, but it was a series of drawings that he would balloon dialogue.

And he would sit down on the couch, I would sit down next to him, and I'd go over the whole thing.

I remember just laughing a lot, 'cause the stories were so fun.

And I always got a... Whatever I felt about the story that I was looking at, he was right there to answer any questions that I may have had.

I normally had a couple questions to throw out at him and say, "You sure about this?"

"Why is this guy in here, or do I need to do this or that?

Or what do you see me doing here?"

Things like that.

But in the case of other books, it was the rare case that I ever got a script that I didn't wanna have some input in.

There were some cases where writers would hand something in and I would say, "Are you sure about this really?

I don't think it's working like that."

Of course, they would get mad at me.

Later on, when I got certain scripts kinda funny thing took over and I guess it's just the spirit of what I am.

My job and what I was...

I don't think of it as a job, I shouldn't say that, I think of it as, I don't know, make up a word that I haven't thought up yet, but I just think of it as my life.

Storytelling is my life, and the drawing is my life.

So, when I get that script, I have to turn it into something that I kind of sign off on before I sign my name to these things.

So, I remember several times, like one example was what Price Glory with Captain America, I was working with Bruce Jones.

Bruce Jones is a really nice guy, but I remember April Campbell, his wife said, "It would've been good if you stuck to the script, Steve.

[both laughing] To me, all I did was make it better.

From there, it's just a matter of you're talking to a different person, with a different mind, and a different set of standards, and a different way of looking at the world.

I was just doing what I had to do to make this really cool with them, and make a story that made complete sense visually.

I've always been kinda big on take the words away, what are you looking at?

You get it?

You wanna turn the page?

Even though you can't read what's written there.

So that's kind of how I approach everything that I do, it's gotta stand on its own.

That's why the thumbnail stage is critical, everything is based in those thumbnails, Terence.

As to how I approach something.

And if it's not right, I just change the panel or whatever, there's always a little bell that goes off of my head, if something's just not right.

And when that bell goes off, it just means push, push harder, dig deeper, and try to find what that is, and for what?

35 going on 40 years now, I've always found a way to pull it off.

But you know what they say, you've heard that thing that when people get older they get a little more cranky and persnickety and things like that.

Well, I can attest that's kind of what's happening to me.

And yet, one of the last things I did for DC was the Birdman series, and I don't recall the writer's name, but that story was flawless.

I couldn't believe how good this thing was.

So, maybe it's not me being picky, maybe it's just me waiting for something that is solid, panel to panel, page by page, throughout the entire thing.

And that's in the case of the Birdman story, that's what it was, it was impeccable.

- Now you mentioned the thumbnail stage, and I know some artists will work on a thumbnail, it'll just be like the comic book size, and then they kinda blow it up to start their layouts.

Are you doing the thumbnails smaller?

And if so, how do you kinda capture the same energy in a rough sketch, on the page?

- The thumbnails are about this big.

- Wow!

- And I learned a long time ago from our training in college that you don't need to go any bigger than this.

And this applies to everything that I do, whether it's a comic book page, whether it's a painting, a full blown 20 by 30 painting or whatever, this is the size that I work.

And I learned very quickly that if you can read it, if the impact is there and the size is small, chances are when you blow it up, it's gonna have the same kind of impact.

And also it's very fast with things, it;s small right there, but all the storytelling has worked out in something like this.

Normally, I don't proceed until this stuff is all worked out.

Now lately, I've been getting a little sloppy and I kind of catch it on demand at some point, if it's not right when I'm drawing the actual page.

So I'm starting to get a little lazy, about making everything just right before I proceed, it's like throwing yourself at the deep end these days, and seeing if you can swim.

So I'm kind of doing that to myself these days and who knows why?

- Well, I guess at some point it's a challenge to yourself and your skills to just see how much you can kinda push yourself to maybe try something that you haven't had to do before, just to see if you can do it.

So, you're talking about these thumbnails, I mean, that's a very small size.

So, when you're doing something like that, it makes perfect sense that you'd be able to kinda look at it and tell the flow of the story.

Do you ever have to modify it?

Maybe there's like in the old days, there'd be an ad that might appear on one spot, or is that kind of page turn always consistent?

- You know I haven't seen ads in comic books in a long time, I know they're still in there, but in the case of Nexus and First Comics, we had them.

But at some point, I basically ignore the whole ad part of it, I don't concern myself with the twinkle ads that are gonna be there somewhere or another page advertising the upcoming books for Dark Horse, things like that.

And I also don't think about things in terms of opening the book up in two pages, like I don't care how they flow from one page to the other, if you're opening the book like this.

I just trust myself to make sure that whatever's on that page works.

And it kicks in all the right places to keep people galvanized, interested, whatever word you wanna use.

Never bore the reader, that's always in my mind.

And if I bore them, it's my fault, not theirs.

But when you grow up and Jack Kirby, it's kind of hard to [indistinct].

Everyone's got these kind of things in her head as far as what's really important to them.

For me, that's kinda how I think about it, never bore somebody.

Make sure you deliver everything conceivable that the page needs, to make sure people never tune out.

That's the only cardinal sin I can think of as an artist, never bore them.

- I wanted to talk about covers because covers are, I guess, that thing that sells the book, but they also have to tell a bit of a story.

So as someone who does a lot of sequential work, and also does a lot of cover work, how do you sort of make the right image?

So that way it's, I guess, reflective of the story, although a lot of covers aren't these days, but also that you as an artist can really express yourself because it's not as expressive as let's say a sequential page.

- Well, that's kind of where my illustrator training comes in, Terence.

I was bred into this field that I was, it just came as a natural gift or aptitude that some people have.

I was lucky enough to have that.

And because it's my calling and as my aptitude, I love pushing myself as far as it can go.

And as far as telling the story in a cover.

The cover is just my attempt at trying to mirror the covers of the old women's magazines from the '40s and '50s.

It's gotta be something that compels you enough just to look at as a cool image on its own.

Never mind the side of the book.

If the cover's working, you you've accomplished step one, and that is you'd grab your attention with the cover.

And then from there, you have to deliver Jack Kirby type visuals, or not, of course, Kirby could do anything.

People think of him as this blast in your face kind of guy, but the guy could do anything.

He could have people sit around at a couch, or the dining room table and make it exciting.

So that to me, is kind of always been in the back of my mind, is how you have to deliver.

But yeah, the cover...

I used to buy the comic space undercover when I was a kid.

Just the cover alone, I had this weird thing in my head, the cover has to down and later on, that would change over the years, 'cause sometimes the interior artist wouldn't even do the covers.

And now they've been doing this, what do they call 'em?

Alternative covers.

What do they call those things nowadays?

- The variant covers.

- Yeah, the variant covers, everyone's doing it.

I don't know when that trend is gonna stop, but I guess I would selling, it's not broken, why try to fix it?

That answer the question at all [both laughing] for the covers?

- It did, it did.

And you mentioned Kirby, and I'm thinking back to, the fact that you look at some early fantastic four stuff, and then you see what Kirby does later on, when he, I guess hits the midway point of his run, where he's got Reed Richards in the negative zone, and it's this wild psychedelic pattern and everything.

So it seemed like Jack was just always thinking and trying to do a little more.

And I see... Again, we're close to wrapping up, we've got about three minutes in our conversation.

but if we're talking about modern technology, is this something that you are dabbling in the Syntics and the different software to work on the comics, or are you still pencil, board, and brush?

- It's pencil, board, and brush.

They're the only two people I know that are still Luddite about that stuff for me and Alex Ross.

We get on the phone occasion, and I don't know, I just don't... Just because he's there, why do I have to engage in it?

There's a lot of people that look at that as "Well, If I don't have it, I'm not gonna get the first."

I honestly don't care if I get work.

My life is Nexus, and that's always self-generated.

But to me, the only thing is I need to stay true to my roots in my conscious, and there's nothing in there that says I have to go buy a Syntic, and that's not gonna change.

I'm very comfortable the way I am, and as long as I can get away with it, these old fashioned tools, which I love and adore, I'm fine with it.

I wanna be part of that, that tradition that came belong before me.

And that's always paper, brush, and pen, and I'm gonna stick with it, sorry guys.

- Well, Steve, they're telling us that we are just about out of time.

I wanted to thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk with me today.

- Terence, it's been fun, thank you.

I wish we had another two hours, then we could [indistinct] and I'd start to finally, the words would flow a little better instead of being so still bit at times, but I'm still not used to the interview thing, you know what I mean?

We sit here and work alone all day, every day.

I'm seven days a week now, I work harder than ever, and the years go by, now it's decades.

It's a life process that fascinates me.

You have a lot of time to think when you're at the board.

- It's true, well, Steve, I wanna say thank you again, I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching Comic Culture, we will see you again, soon.

[dramatic music] ♪ - [Announcer] Comic Culture is a production of the department of mass communication at the University of North Carolina, at Pembroke.

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