Hi, my name is Hermene Hartman and this is N'Digo Studio today.

We've got some champions.

We're going to talk to Craig Hodges and Dr. Lloyd Walton.

Craig Hodges is a basketball champion.

He was born in Park Force and grew up in Chicago Heights.

He played in the league for ten seasons, and when he left the court, he began to coach.

He's the former head coach of the Westchester Knicks, and he played with the Bulls and is the best three point shooter the game has ever seen.

He was the head coach basketball, the Chicago State University when he was playing ball.

Black men.

And in Los Angeles, Rodney King was beaten by policemen.

The beating left King brain damage.

Hodges wanted to boycott the game in 1991, it was the championship game between the Bulls and the L.A. Lakers.

He has had a historical and legendary career as one of the best to ever play the game.

He has firm opinions on what the NBA players are doing today as they stop the game.

Dr. Lloyd Walton Well, he grew up in Chicago Heights and they have history.

He's had a basketball career starting at Mount Carmel High School and was an all-American great.

He played at Marquette University and went on to be drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks in 76.

After that, he went to play for the Kansas City Kings.

He's been a coach Marquette University and is the third ever earn a Ph.D. a doctorate degree from the game.

Today, he enjoys being a senior career counselor for the NBA players.

So today we want to talk about champions, about the game and about stopping the game as the players have done today.

Let's talk about it's going to be real.

It's going to be conversational, but it's about the game starting and stopping it.

-Cozy conversation drop.

The knowledge that's for real... Funding for this program was provided by the Chicago Community Trust, Commonwealth Edison, Blue Cross Blue Shield, the MacArthur Foundation and Illinois State Lottery.

We're about to have a real conversation with basketball greats, with some real champions, with some sportsmen.

Craig Hodges and Dr. Lloyd Walton.

Now, Craig was telling me before you got here, there is a relationship way before basketball talk about that, Craig.

You know, first of all, I just thank you for the opportunity to come on.

But Lloyd was one of my heroes growing up.

And as far as you know, he was in the community and he was one of the young brothers who went off to school when he was in my family was always a point.

They always point him in the direction of people who were successful, who came from the community and to show you that you had the opportunity to do the same.

And, you know, Growing I went on and watch Lloyd when he was at Marquette and come to find out through family conversation and the impact that my family had on him.

And then when we got a chance to speak, he spoke highly of my family.

And it's always cool to see the brother.

See his And it's always cool to see the brother.

See his being introduced to sports, right?

You go to the park.

And the first introduction to sports for me was baseball.

And I remember I told him this story.

It's in my book, actually.

So I walk into the park and I hear this voice around the corner from the fieldhouse is growling, boys.

Hey, pick it up.

You can do it.

Like.

So I walk around the corner, I see this guy with a baseball cap Hair pulled to the back on a cigaret dangling out his mouth.

Given our orders and everybody's on the edge of their seat listening so attentively.

That was his grandfather.

boy.

And so after that, his uncle taught me how to shoot a jump shot.

And to ask about.

And then here he comes along and.

Perfect and perfect.

Right.

And Exactly!

It must be in the blood..

Right?

It's in the, It's in the DNA Of the Heights.

You got to tell me about this three point.

Now, you know, I'm not a great basketball or team guy, so show me, do me tell me to three point.

Well when I grew up when we grew up earlier, it wasn't a three point line.

It was just basically everything was two point shots.

But growing up, for me, it was always intriguing to see how far away I could get from from the basket to shoot it.

And growing up in high school, I never had a three point line, never had it in college, but I still could shoot at distances.

And then when I got into the league, it was one of those things that the game naturally in space and all that, you get a chance to knock down three points instead of two.

So for me it was it was a blessing.

But at the same time, it was one of those things where Loyd will tell you sometimes it can pigeonholed you.

To me, I felt like it took away from me doing other things and and possibly gotten more money, but at the same time, to be able to be the best shooter or be the best of anything on the planet is something great.

So at one point in time, I could say I was the best shooter on the planet Earth.

Wow.

And that I was going to say, now I read up on you and that's what they say in 1991.

You playing with the Bulls?

Yes.

Championship game.

This Rodney King was beaten by policemen in California.

The bad brain damage you wanted to stop the game.

Tell me about that.

Well at that time, Loyd, will to tell you we were coming out of some historical content.

You know, in During the seventies, the league was struggling.

And as far as attendance and the like, and then Magic and Bird came in in 79 and started somewhat of a resurgence of the league from marketing in and then during that period of time, there was really little spoken from apolitical and players took the position that I wasn't gonna speak too much to what was going on socially, but when I was, I was taught, you know, coming from the Heights is part of the civil rights movement and having a chance to go to Long Beach State and study Black studies and as well as have Text Winter as my coach, I was blessed to be able to look into issues and not be afraid to speak to them.

And so for me, it was it was a natural that when I saw that and we were on the bus talking about it, that's why so many things that myself and Macmood.

Abdul Rauf is another brother that speaks his mind is that you know, we would talk about these things in private, on bus, on plane, in team meetings or whatever, because it was a pan would happen, you know.

But when it became a public event, it would be they put a mic in front of MJ, his face or Scottie face, and they wouldn't have any thing to say because they would say, I don't know enough about it.

What I'm saying, when you see somebody be down like that with facts that you need to.

Know about.

You can see it.

So... today you were way ahead of your time.

You know, and for me, you.

But you say you wouldn't you wouldn't stop the game now.

me.

I wouldn't play.

I'm I'm I'm a different I'm from a different mindset.

I feel like boycotts work We we have history to know that they work, but they have to be strategic and it has to be timed.

It's got to be planned.

And it couldn't be a better time than now.

And to me, you were given to out you were given the out of the COVID and you were given out of the murder.

So you had an easy out.

And to me, it's just like we're talking about a recalibration of what are going to do with our life energy right now.

And it's on us to define what that would be.

And I feel like our athletes have that bully pulpit at this time in their life and the resources that we can really see a difference in how we go about and be more mature about how we use our talent and our life energy.

So, Lloyd, you and I talked about of offline off Cam where we talked about the difference between now and, say, Ali's protests not going to Vietnam.

People don't know.

But as you read now, if you read up on Jackie Robinson, never again did he pledged allegiance to the flag, for example.

Jim Brown, What's the difference between the individual protest acts of yesterday and the protests of today?

How does it differ?

Very, very simple in my opinion, that, you know, we're always stronger when we unite.

Absolutely.

On an individual basis, we can only reach so many people.

Our voice is only so loud, right.

And only cares for so many people.

So today, when you see athletes, particularly basketball, I'll talk about that.

When you see not just basketball, when you see these young people coming together from all walks of life, a very diverse group, a movement, if you will, saying we've had enough.

Right.

We're going to stand for something.

We're not going to allow you to kill these black and brown people without saying something.

This is a human rights thing, in my opinion.

Right.

That they're taking a stance for.

The thing about in the past, we had some individuals that were vocal, but we had some who were silent.

Silence get you nothing right.

You have to be able to speak up.

The problem with it was that they were about to lose everything.

They had the same thing that happened to Craig 30 years later was going to happen to them right then, and that was really no recourse.

Right?

I remember in the 64 NBA All-Star Game with the owners, the players were being treated so badly that the players, this was white and black players were in the locker room and said, you know what, The owners have not negotiated with us fairly, so we're not going this was the first televised All-Star Game.

We're not coming back out to play.

Okay.

Unless the owners come down here and begin to have a honest, sincere and genuine negotiation with us about our pay, about health care and things of that nature.

Wow.

Those owners came downstairs and before they agreed to do it, they threatened every player that was there.

The logo that you see of Jerry West was threatened by his owner who said, you will never play another game of basketball in the NBA if you don't get out here and play together.

They stood firm and they did not move into.

The owners decided, well, we're going to be honest, sincere and genuine about our negotiation.

That was black and brown.

They stood together to unite.

The unification of all of them made a difference to the owners.

Right.

And for the power of unity.

of when I was asking them to boycott during the 91 finals, was that example that he just gave because that was the foundation of our union.

So what we're rolling on now is what they did back then.

And I think oftentimes based on, you know, the kudos of social media that we we don't look back on how we got to the point where we are.

And that I think that's one of the cool things also with the social media and the like.

And the opposite of that is that young people do have instantaneous ability to support.

Lloyd, I want to I want to ask you something.

I want to get back to sports, but I want to talk about lifestyle.

You played ball.

You went back to school.

You've done something that most don't do and only three have done.

You are the third you've done and you went and got your doctorate.

Talk about life after the game.

Wow, A little bit.

Wow, A little bit.

Well, look, first thing I'll say is I'll use the phrase at my college coach.

You always told us use basketball.

Don't let it use you.

This is the first time.

Then I have to just think about my family inside my house with my grandmother and her sister, who were twins who grew up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

My grandmother love school, but she had to drop out in the third grade because she had to go work in the cotton fields And help support the family.

I heard it every single day how important your education is, and it's going to be the opportunity and the foundation for your future.

So now, to be honest with you, I heard it, but I didn't listen to it.

Right?

So as I'm going through school, I'm an average student at best.

And then I found out once I got to high schools I was at Mount Carmel and I found out, well, if you don't get good grades, then you're not going to play, which was a little bit of a fallacy.

Okay, So I become two.

I began to play really good basketball and I start getting all these accolades right, and I'm being driven in from Chicago Heights to Chicago to go to school.

And that coach would also wait and take me home at night.

And when I got home at night, I would go straight to the park, to the fieldhouse and play some more.

Play some more time.

So what was missing was the academic part.

So where is the book?

Right, Right.

So and I shared this and a young lady interviewed me the other day and she she reminded me because it's in the book, is excerpts have been out I got five F's one year.

Five?

Five F's.. Five F's.

And ahh..

I played every game right.

And I began to think about this because I didn't qualify to go to college for a Division one scholarship.

I would have to go to junior college.

And I began to think about like, Well, what are you going to do with your life?

Because I wasn't necessarily think about the NBA.

What are you going to do with your life?

What kind of job, what you're going to get?

That's what I was kind of thinking about.

And then all of a sudden I go to junior college, but then I get a chance to go to a Division one school and the one I wanted to go to.

And this coach was honest every single day about the importance of your education.

And in my sophomore year, it hit me and I said, You know what?

I can't predict what's going to happen unless I get my education.

So now began to take my classes seriously.

I'm going to go to school, I'm going to study, I will do my homework and I will think about what's the next opportunity for me.

I wanted to become a sportscaster.

You got serious?

Yeah, I got serious.

And I'm so happy that I did, because still in all the NBA, it wasn't guaranteed.

Well, sometimes it takes us a long time to understand what grandmothers are saying.

Tell me about the bubble.

Tell me about the game today and living in the bubble.

The guys are now living in the bubble in Disney.

What's that like?

Well, me, from all my conversations with them them and I talk to them probably three times a week, obviously a bubble.

You in close?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Isolated right from everybody, from the real world.

All these normal things that can lead to the families just started coming down with the teams that are in the Eastern and Western Conference finals last Tuesday, and then they had to be quarantined for seven days before they actually can mix with their their husbands and things of that nature.

Wow.

But now here's the best thing about it, is that, again, they were able to continue to use the platform to support and talk about these social issues.

And they were also able to continue to make money.

Now, we look at the NBA, It has the biggest platform, global platform you could have in the world.

Right.

And to be able to stand before people and talk about the reasons why you don't feel like you want to play like the Milwaukee Bucks did was critical.

There's not a country that it did not touch.

That's right.

You couldn't do that on your own if you went back home.

Right.

Two Players!

one from Chicago, Sterling Brown .

and George Hill.

George Hill And I had a conversation, several conversations before it got to the bubble.

I'm not saying anything that he has not said publicly.

He said, look, I don't really want to go in the bubble.

I want to stay home in my community and deal with these social issues.

I share with how I feel and how I thought.

But I supported him, right?

And he saw it.

It touched him so deeply.

Sterling Brown and George Hill.

We're talking about in Kenosha.

You couldn't do that on your own if you went back home.

Okay.

Now, manager Kenosha is only 30 minutes from from Milwaukee, Right.

This is this is the community.

Yeah.

It touched him so deeply that he went to the coaches.

Nobody else was going, said, I'm not playing.

And asked why.

He said, Because I cannot allow a black man to be killed like this and not take a stand.

That's right.

So the coaches went into the huddle.

He went back to his teammates.

They had a conversation.

They all agreed to support him 100%.

And so they.

Walk and they said, we're not doing.

It.

Why didn't they do it with Colin?

Colin Kaepernick?

Well, first of all, let me say this.

Football is very different in basketball time.

Okay?

Big time.

When you think about the NBA and what the players do and say they are loud and they take the risk and the chance to voice their opinion, you don't find that with football players and they don't have any unity, in my opinion, at least not the kind of use that you need to take a stance.

Right?

Because my thing was and I heard this on social media a lot, are we going to not watch football again?

Well, here's the deal for me.

If all of the football players and there's 1500 of them decide to support Colin Kaepernick and say, we're not going to play and we're going to take a knee if we have to play, you're taking a stance.

What are the owners going to do?

Are they going to play the game themselves and get that TV money?

I don't think so.

They weren't willing to do it.

Okay.

Our players are willing to do it and they're willing to ask for what they want to follow up.

Let me just say, the follow up force right now is to now make sure that we're now getting interviews and not just interviews, but getting hired in these key roles with these different teams.

-Ok, Now..

The game, just like America Just like the world from the Pandemic Has been shut down.

We have stopped, We have haltered Here's a question for you for for you both, actually.

What do you tell young kids who want to play the game?

What advice do you give them about school, about the game, about money, about life?

what do you tell them?

Wow, this is what I do on a regular basis with our players and made it to the league.

But first and foremost, I share what my experience has been, and my experience has been that your education should come first, first and foremost.

Sound like your grandmother?

Yeah, well, she was right.

There a long time, right?

So that's first and foremost, get your education.

Now we realize that some players and I got some great stories, but some players will only do college one year because they allow them to do that before they come to the NBA.

But we have a number of players who have reentered school, right, Even though they have a long way, they've taken one class two classes a year to get that education.

They have to understand one thing, that if they have an opportunity to Craig and I had going to play professional basketball in the NBA, number one thing that they have to know and remember it is a business.

Teach.

Okay, this is not recreational stuff.

This is not at the park.

This is not at the Y.

This is a business.

People make investments.

We've all made investments.

And the thing that we ask and we want to know, what is the R.O.I?

What is my return on my investment?

Are you going to be somebody who's going to come to work every day and work your butt off?

Are you going to improve of right so you can improve how much my team is worth?

Are you going to be that kind of guy or you're going to be somebody who gets in trouble, Who's going to damage my brand?

Our brand, Right.

Another part of is that your preparation, because at some point in time that ball is not going to have any air in it.

That basketball career is going to be go over.

The average basketball career today is 4.7 years.

Our kids come in and 19 years of age, 18 years of age.

The thing that you've worked the hardest and thought about the most is now over.

What are you going to do with your life?

Right?

Are you prepared to take that rugged road which is going to be now to try to go get your education that you didn't get?

Because you don't have any skills?

I'm sorry.

I started dancing at three years old.

I wanted to be a professional dancer.

I wanted to be a ballet dancer.

I want to be a ballerina.

And my father would say, we have to go to school.

You can have you can do that for fun.

You can have recreation with that.

And I was like, Daddy, why?

You know, I can do it really?

Well, first of all, there's no black ballerinas.

I haven't seen one yet.

That's number one.

You separate number two.

But I'm 30 years old.

You're going to be old.

I never That took me 20 years.

I was like, it's going to be 30 years old.

I'm going to be old.

And he said, 30 years old, you're going to be old, which means you're going to be done no matter how good you are.

Ok you'll be done!

So that's what you're saying.

You got to tell you got about a good at best five years.

We want to give you a year.

4.7 years is the average.

In.

Real life begin.

Real life begins.

And see what.

Do what do you tell the kids you coach?

For me is it's your passion that we found our passions early.

We had great mentors and a great support base.

Nobody can never say they successful in a vacuum.

It was somebody there to support you.

How can we create that support base for young folks to experience positive things, to give them exposure because so many of them have no exposure, only in their blocks, in their social media.

And so much of it is distractions from what's real when you talk about education.

So it's being able to get them to see not only through what we've been through, but the value of you pursuing this on your own, because we ain't going to be able to be your mentor and hold you by the hand.

You got to you've got to have this focus.

And this focus has to be something that comes out of you.

I can't you know, we always talk about pressure and people talk about pressure.

It wasn't pressure.

We used the term three point contest.

There's no outward pressure than more than I can put on myself.

So you can try to do whatever you want.

I already been there for you trying to push me to it, I think that's all part of it Is.... Is being able to be Their give them some opportunity and utilize our utilizes and resources.

-But here's the real good news.

You played ball.. you were champions.

Hall of Fame best three point effort.

You transfer those skills, those become life skills, those become championships, skills.

leadership.

Commitment, discipline, all those kind of things being motivate, being accountable and responsible.

How those are transferable from the playing field to corporate America.

Even for sure, right?

If you do definitely the kind of things that they're looking for.

And that's the part where when I look at, you know, being a student athlete, being a professional now, being where I am in this human rights that we're doing.. that now, our spin moves is a conversation and information as opposed to us throwing on a chess pass.

Now I'm dropping off these books.

It's just the same.

And like, like I was talking to Packs about this and he was saying that what America needs is a great team concept.

That doesn't matter who gets the credit.

-Okay.

- As long as we get the W, right?

So I tell people, you know, Phil Jackson won eleven twelve rings and every one of them began with one word.

We get together every session.

One, two, three, ring, and nothing else matters.

So it wasn't a.

- 1 to 3 ring.

Ring being NBA champions.

Championship ring.

Let's win this one word, one word and that.

And that's, you know, I was shooting coach with the Lakers and Kobe, the best player on the planet at that time.

And my thing with him was he shot so many balls that he had a he had a tendency to recoil because, you know, he's getting ready to get the next one.

You guys.

So I would have to tell him on free throws, extension and extension.

That you have to finish.

And see it go through.

So it's one of those things where one word clues.

So critical.

So I'm working on not saying struggle.

Not saying That's right.

In the fight.

-That's right.

We In the fight.

-That's right.

-I'm talking about with victorious now.

Yeah.

I mean.

Positive words, positive thing, question.

About it.

Namely the top three greatest basketball.

Player of all time.

Oh my God!

Present Company excluded.

That's true.

That's right.

That was a three pointer!

Okay.

So, you know, I'm old school and I look at rings that Craig was talking about.

Right?

Yeah.

So the first thing I think about is Bill Russell.

Okay, who won 11?

You know, we want a couple with the.

11 rings.

That rings.

We want a couple with a coach who has a team and players and fingers.

Yeah.

So I look at Bill Russell is number one and this is tough.

I look at MJ and that would be Michael Michael Jordan and my favorite player because I have worked with him.

I've this is my 21st year of counsel for the players and I've worked with him from day one since he's come into the league.

And so I would have to throw LeBron in.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's my top three Craig Give me your top three Bill Russell Kareem.

Real world.

Some of the same for the same reason.

No question you've seen us with a while People always ask us who's the greatest, right?

And I'm saying when we come into games, you don't want to you don't want to play Monopoly and lose, lose or scramble.

You you work, you want to win.

So when we're talking about winning, Bill Russell's the greatest.

And then you think about all the people on his team who won six and seven and all of that kind of stuff, you know, the Jerry Havlicek and all of them kind of guys.

But I say, you know, Bill Russell, Kareem.

And that third one is is kind of tough because I feel like oftentimes we we look at MJ and Cobe and LeBron, but I have to put Doc in there.

I have to put Dr. Jay in there and I have to put Dr. J in there, because to me, he was almost that that the turn in of from the Old to the new that from Doc's image came MJ and MJ took it to the long shorts, took it to a whole new fabric of what the NBA was going to be like.

And I think Doc was that that bridge to that I feel blessed to have watched Lloyd.

You know, I, when I was in college moving up to Milwaukee, we were playing Marquette and I'm in college and Lloyd's on the Bucks.

So it was one of the things I could brag and say, Man, my homeboy.

Is with the crew.. Would say, Well, I know him -I know him from The hood.

So it was one of those it's a great it's been a great thing.

We've been blessed by the game and we're doing our best to make sure we can.

and to give it to that.

Give your your success skills to that next generation and talking about winning.

And it is just a delight for me to talk to champions.

And it is just a miracle that I've talked about basketball.

I mean, I got it.

All right.

Thank you.

I read the book.

Thank you so much.

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Funding for this program was provided by the Chicago Community Trust, Commonwealth Edison, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, the MacArthur Foundation and Illinois State Lottery.

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