Geoff: Former president Donald Trump has for several days now spread lies and spouted conspiracy theories about the federal government's response to hurricane Helene.

Disinformation that's causing real-time confusion among some of those most desperate for help and answers.

We are joined by Juliette kayyem, former assistant secretary at the department of homeland security.

Her latest piece in "The atlantic" is titled "The fog of disaster is getting worse."

Thank you for being with us.

Juliette: Thanks for having me.

Geoff: As you note in the piece, the spread of rumors and misinformation has always been a problem during major disasters, especially when the usual channels of communication breakdown.

What is a real-world harm inflicted by lies and conspiracy theories about the hurricane relief effort?

Juliette: There's a couple of direct impacts.

The first is how the government works and functions.

It needs the support of communities and populations.

If there is distrust, rumors, rampant lies being spread, in particular by the former president, it makes the work of government more difficult.

The second is the driving of resources.

In normal disaster management, a lot of what the government finds out comes from local sources.

A mayor, a local newspaper, a citizen saying this is here, we have a problem there.

They drive resources that way.

If there's a lot of noise in the system, not just disinformation, someone gets something wrong, but actual misinformation, it actually impedes the ability to move resources.

Finally, I have talked to people on FEMA, the concern or animus towards the government that is being spun up by so many right now is causing some of them to have to be deployed in pairs.

That basically means you are wasting resources on safety and security issues that don't normally exist in a crisis.

When people generally do come together.

Geoff: Donald Trump's claims have focused on undermining confidence in the federal response and trying to tie that to his political opponent, Kamala Harris.

Here's a sampling of some of the false things he has said in recent days.

>> Kamala spent all her FEMA money, billions of dollars, on housing for illegal migrants, many of whom should not be in our country.

They're offering them $750 to people whose homes have been washed away.

And yet, we send tens of billions of dollars to foreign countries that most people have never heard of.

Geoff: Here's the fact-check.

There is zero basis for claiming that FEMA disaster money is being diverted to undocumented immigrants.

The $750 he mentioned is merely the immediate upfront aid that survivors can get to cover basic supplies in the days after disaster hits.

You mentioned you know a lot of people at FEMA.

There's this other false notion, this conspiracy theory that the federal government is trying to buy up land from people.

Tell me more about that and how it has resonated.

Juliette: That's right.

There are all these rumors basically undermining trust.

That is so essential in a crisis.

Trust not just in your government, but trust in your other citizens.

That people will come together.

All of these lies breed distrust among ethnic groups or racial groups or red states and blue states.

That has been a lie that trump has been pushing that resources are not going to red states.

One very harmful lie but is being spread is that the government -- this is the opportunity for the government to take your house.

That is not true.

FEMA cannot take your house.

They can pay you and urge you to be bought out so you don't build your home in the same place.

It is a long process.

It does not happen overnight.

But you can imagine people worried about, well, my home is going to be taken away.

They believe these lies.

What do they do?they don't evacuate .

We have a new hurricane, a deadly hurricane coming to Florida right now.

The idea that people will stay put because of a lie, that the government is going to take their home if they leave it is going to cost lives.

This is why it is not just, oh, these are lies being spread around.

They have direct impact on the life, health and safety of millions of people either impacted by Helene or all of these hurricanes coming through now.

Geoff: As a sign of the times, FEMA has devoted dispelling rumors on its website.

What did you make of the federal government's efforts to combat misinformation?

Juliette: It is much better than it has been before.

No one's going to actually believe it.

We now know that these lies, they fill the vacuum that has been created by platforms like X, that contribute to the misinformation.

Political leadership like Donald Trump that then amplify it.

Remember, a communications network that is essentially down.

It is hard for people to get online.

It is hard for them to get those media resources they used to have.

There are all sorts of rumors at this stage.

FEMA has taken a step.

I commend Republican governors and mayors that are pushing back against a narrative that is being asserted by Donald Trump as part of his election campaign.

It's obscene at this stage, but we will see more of it.

Geoff: Lastly, you right in your P that emergency managers regularly urge people to stockpile 72 hours worth of food and water, but Americans should also be planning their disaster media diet with similar care.

What does that look like?

Juliette: This is where, no offense to us, national media matters less.

You want to follow local emergency managers, local media radio.

People who are in the community and telling you what to do.

Of course, to listen to what is being asked of you.

If evacuations are not done casually, the kinds of evacuations we are seeing in Florida right now are serious.

There's a lot of waiting going into them.

This is where people before the disaster, much like they would retain 72 hours of water and food, really think about how that I going to get my resources and information in real-time?

You can build for that now even before the disaster.

Geoff: Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us.

We appreciate it.

Juliette: Thank you.