- There's an inherent contradiction in today's China.

The Communist Party wields absolute control over society and the economy, while at the same time, celebrating great individual wealth.

Today's guest has seen the inside of that world and writes about it in a new book.

He's Desmond Shum this week on Story in the Public Square.

(gentle upbeat music) Hello, and welcome to Story in the Public Square, where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller with The Providence Journal.

- Each week we talk about big issues with great guests, storytellers, novelists, journalists, and more to make sense of the big stories that shape our world.

This week, we're joined by Desmond Shum.

Born in Shanghai, raised in Hong Kong, and educated in the United States, he's the author of a new memoir, "Red Roulette: An Insider's Story of Wealth, Power, Corruption, and Vengeance in Today's China."

Desmond, thank you so much for being with us.

- [Desmond] Thanks for having me.

- So the book is a really powerful look at life inside China at the highest levels of Chinese business and Chinese government.

We wanna talk about that at length, but let's start a little bit of background about you and your family.

You write sort of descriptively about the different experiences of your grandparents in the aftermath of the Chinese Communist Revolution.

And it was a different experience both for your mother's family and your father's family.

Could you tell us a little bit about that?

- My grandfather on my father's side, he was a lawyer.

And when the Communist Party took over, I think educated class, in general, is classified as degenerative.

And then they were driven from their home in Shanghai, and they went to Suzhou, which is about an hour drive today's world, probably three hour train at that time in the '70s.

No, probably earlier than that.

My father was about 10, 12 when he was left alone in Shanghai.

And I think that really leave a lasting mark on him in his personality being left alone, fending for himself as a teenager.

And my mom, she was actually born in Hong Kong and then went back to Shanghai very young with my maternal grandmother.

And then my maternal grandfather was working as a businessperson in Hong Kong.

And then he was able to send money back on regular basis to support the family.

And so my father's side and my mother's side has very, very different experience early in their life.

- Can you talk about about the difficult parts of your childhood?

And then we can get to the more uplifting parts, as it were.

- Yeah, one thing, I think I am sort of different.

Early on, I think that the US education, American education, actually definitely left a mark on me.

I'm a lot more open person than a usual Chinese you will meet in China.

And so when I decided to write a book, I said, well, I have nothing to be ashamed of.

And I have done all my best to be the best person I can be.

And I will just tell the truth that it is and even the difficult part.

And this book has been a lot of soul searching, a lot of a gut-wrenching review of my own life.

And so, my early life, it's difficult.

My childhood in Shanghai, we were in the tail end of Cultural Revolution.

And my parents are both, they're alternately sent to the countryside from time to time.

My father is always very afraid of what will happen to him because the classification of social status he has.

I think it gives him a lot of pressure.

And then I think my father, I think, subconsciously, unconsciously, release a lot of those pressure on me.

And, you know, I took hard beatings.

And looking back in my life, and I would say how much wrong an eight-years-old, nine-years-old kid can do to deserve that kind of beating.

And then it actually affects me.

When I had my son now, there he's 12, I barely ever lay a hand on him.

And I'm very verbal with him.

That's to show my affection, and also physically I hug him all the time, giving kisses.

We play kiss game, we call.

It's just very different.

My childhood leave a, well, leave a mark, definitely.

- You found swimming to be something that gave you pleasure and something you succeeded at.

So that was sort of a bright spot in your childhood.

Maybe you can talk about that, and then you can please get into why you decided to come to America to go to college.

So, start with the swimming.

- Yeah, swimming was, Everywhere else in the US, I would guess you came to swimming because you liked the sport.

In my case, I was picked.

In the communist system, what happened was, when I think when I was six, somebody came to the school.

They measure you up, your proportions, your arms to your body, the proportion of legs to your body.

You jumped into the water and showed what can you do.

And then they say, well, okay, this guy's good for track and field.

That guy's good for swimming.

And I was selected to say I'm supposed to be good at swimming.

And then I get picked, and then you get into the so-called quote, unquote training system.

And so I start very early on at six.

I would swim one to two hours every day, probably six, seven days a week.

And I was very good at it.

And if swimming give me anything, it give me a belief that I can get through the tough part of the pool.

It's because when you're training that much as a kid, some days you are good.

Some days you don't feel so strong.

But when you doing the pool, if you slow down, you're blocking the lane.

People are touching your feet.

And they say, well, you're blocking the lane.

And then you push yourself and then eventually get out of pool.

And that actually really leave a mark on my, always look back in that experience as what swimming give me, is push it through, get through the barrier.

You can get it through, and you will get out of pool eventually.

So that really, I mean, that's what swimming really give me.

- So why did you decide to come to college in America?

And it was the University of Wisconsin.

- Yeah, that's also accidental, I guess.

Well, the first part's not accidental, is I have one of my best friend.

He went to a California very early on.

And then, America is always a draw on youngster with American movie, the pop culture, the music and all that.

And then when I hear what he's experiencing in a school, in college, in the US, I decided that's where I want to go.

That's where I want to go.

And so I apply, and I apply at that year.

I was accepted to Washington U. in St. Louis and Madison, Wisconsin.

And at the time, I think that year, I still remember US News ran the school, one is 17, and one is 18.

And I think Wash U. was 17.

Madison was 18.

But the tuition is half.

So Madison is half the tuition of Wash U.

And my father, and also in my case myself, I never been to the states.

I don't really know what's the difference between a public school and a private school.

We still are, I would say, aspiring middle class, definitely not there yet.

We were aspiring to be a middle class in Hong Kong.

Finance is not easy on the family.

So when my father looked at the tuition, he said, "Well, that's where you're going."

And I said, "Sure, that's where I'm going."

So I ended up in Madison, Wisconsin.

- So, your life, you had a lot of sort of developmental experience all over Asia and throughout China.

And we're gonna gloss over that a little bit, but the book itself really peels back the layer of the Communist Party and corruption and the relationship between the two.

You make a point to remind the reader of Deng Xiaoping's famous formulation that to get rich is glorious.

And so for an American audience that's maybe versed on the thought of communism under the old Soviet system and the deprivation and economic scarcity of that, what does communism mean in the Chinese context today?

- You mean today or 20 years ago when I first start my career?

- Let's start 20 years ago and then we can bring it forward to today.

- Okay.

I think 20 years ago, 20 years ago, I think everything is changing.

Everything is changing very fast in a positive dimension.

Everything's booming.

Everything is booming.

Everybody is getting into new things.

Everybody is trying new things.

Everybody believe tomorrow will be better.

Everybody believe one day we will be just like America.

We will have democracy.

We will have all the rights, human rights, all the rights you have.

The question on most people's minds is only about when do we get there.

And the argument is when and how we're gonna get there, but there's no debate on the direction of where the country is going.

And so it's a very, very positive energy in the country when I first started my career going there.

It was very poor, but it's growing very fast, and there is such a positive energy.

- And today?

- And what about today?

- I think things really change.

I give in the book when do I sense the change.

I think the change really came with the '08 financial crisis.

I think the '08 financial crisis, two things happen, right?

One is the world has a, basically, economic collapse to a certain extent, to a large extent, actually.

And then Asia was in panic.

And then a lot of people, I mean, a lot of Asian country looking to China, say, is China gonna depreciate the currency?

If China can depreciate the currency, that would break the dam.

And China hold a currency and did also a massive easing, and the economy came right back.

And then they carried Asia out of it.

And that really changed the perspective, I think, on a lot of people in China, the society at large, and also especially the Chinese political leaders.

All of a sudden, they looked back.

They say, well, okay, maybe our system is not that bad.

Maybe their system is not that great.

I think that's when the questioning starts.

And then with that and also obviously the '08 Olympics, the Beijing showcase really was, I think give everybody looking at the opening ceremony from the world, it's like, wow, this is China.

This is just amazing, right?

Like 10,000 people doing a dance in sync, it's like no other country can deliver something like that at this moment in time other than China.

The society at large in China and also political leaders, a very different look on themselves and the world.

And then from that moment on, I think a lot of things changed.

In the following years, I start have party members installed into my company.

I mean, we are a joint venture company.

We've been private company, a state company.

We own majority share, and a party apparatus was mandated to set up in my company.

And then I have party secretary in my company.

And then when I do managed decision, I have sort of like, have to, I wouldn't say get their consent, but I have to definitely consult their opinion on any decision I make on the company.

And that's just the first step, and then more and more they're coming.

And then you see that the state sector is encroaching on areas that the private company used to be able to operate freely.

And then obviously, you fast-forward to today, the news is just like an avalanche coming down, right?

Like yesterday, last two days, they're talking about the state company buying in 1% into all these major tech company, essentially a golden share.

And they have a boss seat in the company.

Although they're only one seat out of X-membered boards, you know that that one vote call the ultimate shot.

So things really changed, really changed.

And when I look back, and then I think through the book as we go through my life and then go through the last 10 years, one thing I really look back and look at is, the Lenin system of the Communist Party is always there.

And that is Lenin system that enabled the snap back of China because even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, as you can see from the book, we have political connection up and down the system.

We deal with the business leaders of the country.

We count them as personal friends.

We have lavish dinner behind closed doors.

And then we talk about politics in Beijing.

And in China, people do not believe we will go backward.

Okay, we may do a half step back, but nobody believes this is what in today's China is happening.

Everybody think, okay, we may roll forward in a different speed, but we will go forward.

Nobody believe it's gonna go backward, and it's just going backward.

- So a lot of the book is devoted to your ex-wife, Whitney, and she has disappeared.

Can you tell us briefly about her and about the disappearance?

And it's my understanding that she is still disappeared.

- Yes.

I mean, I wouldn't be where I'm today talking to you without her, I mean, despite our differences and, of course, the breakdown in marriage.

And then the reason I'm writing this book, because I think telling this story as openly as I have done is her best chance and maybe her last chance to be alive in a way.

She come from rural part of China in Shandong province.

Her parents were, I would say, low-ranking civil servants in the county.

She really dig herself out of that.

Her parents never believed she have a chance to university.

They say, "You should go to a technical school."

So they sent her to a technical school to be a car-repairing mechanic.

And she was telling me the story that she would bring a book when people go to sleep.

There's no lights.

There's street lights.

So she will bring her books, study for the university entrance exam, study under the street light deep in the night.

And that actually has a lasting impact on her health.

And she failed the first time, and she would get in university the second time.

And that changed her life.

I mean, she was a star student in a university and the best student of her class.

And as a result, the university asked her to stay to be assistant secretary to the president of university.

And from there, she becomes a low-ranking official in the system.

When I say in the system, I have a lot of description of how the system actually worked.

But in the system, what I mean is just the Communist Party runs everything.

The state runs the system which recruits the government and the party apparatus.

So she becomes a government official in a county.

And from there, she sees corruption firsthand.

The head of county when she was there was arrested, a lot of back-stabbing.

She saw all of that.

And she experienced all of that and then also all this heavy drinking, which also give her a lasting health issue.

And then she decided she doesn't want to be part of that thing.

She wanna be free.

She wanna rejoin the entrepreneurial rank, and she get out, and then she get into business.

And then because of her experience of working in university with the president, she get to meet a lot of high-ranking officials.

And then her first business experience, she was working for a business owned by the military, a real-estate development company owned by the military.

At the time, the Chinese army actually can run business.

And from all those experience, she get to know sort of code language to talk to people in the system, the behavior pattern, how you deal with people, even like simple thing as when you greet people knocking a wine glass on a table, how you greet them, how the glasses should be knocked.

There is a code to it.

If you're not aware of it, the person across the table immediately know that.

And they will change their language.

They will change their language in terms of what they tell you, what they discuss with you, and how they treat you, because they say, well, you don't know the game.

You are not part of the play.

So she really bring me into that when we meet up.

- Desmond, we've got a couple of minutes left here, and I wanna make sure we sort of get to the heart of this.

What do you believe has happened to your ex-wife?

- Obviously what happened to her is all guesstimate at this moment because the government had took her for four years.

Nobody actually have ever seen her, ever heard from her.

She had never been charged.

My guess is what happened is we know some of the highest-ranking officials in the state and some of them in a very, deep personal level.

And then a couple of them were rivals of Xi Jinping today, and they were taken out.

And I think in the process, she probably heard something, know certain people she's not supposed to know, heard something she's not supposed to hear.

Xi Jinping and his regime considered, I'm not sure she's a danger.

And I don't think she's a danger.

She's not a politician of any means.

Consider her a nuisance.

And then they said, well, take her out.

- That's terrifying.

Are you worried in publishing this book?

- Yeah.

Well, worry is not even the word.

Every friend of mine, when they heard me coming out with this book, the first thing is where's your safety?

I mean, if I'm afraid, and I'm afraid, but I have to cast that aside because if I let it rule me, I will never come forward and tell the story.

- [G.] Wow, that's courageous.

- I think it's important multiple ways.

I mean, there's two things that bring me to tell the story.

One is what is happening to her.

I mean, I know what we did.

We tried to play the system in China's system as clean as any businessperson possibly can.

And even a shopkeeper need to ally with somebody with political power, maybe a street official, just to operate your shop.

But in our case, we able to get all the way up to the family of the premier.

Is there something wrong with me?

That's the way the system is set up.

That's the way system is played.

If you wanna do anything, you have to ally with somebody with political means in the system.

Otherwise nothing can be done.

You are nobody.

So what happened to her, I think, is deeply unfair.

It made me very angry.

How can you put a person, When you control the courts, you control the prosecution.

You control the judge.

You control the police.

You can charge her with anything and make it stick.

Why do you never charge her and put her in a dark cell for four years now?

And I have no idea whether she's alive or dead.

Despite our differences, she's the mother of my son.

And I'm very angry with that.

The second thing is I grew up in Hong Kong.

I loved that city.

A lot of my close mates are from the city.

And I see what this Communist Party is doing to Hong Kong.

And I see how the youngster being at the front of the protests to demand their rights, their dignity, and their freedom, and it breaks my heart.

I made a trip to be back in Hong Kong just to be in their march, the first time I've met people on the street in Hong Kong.

I want to be there.

I wanna feel that.

I wanna see that.

And I said, well, if the youngest are that brave, so many people giving up so much to protect Hong Kong, maybe I should take a step forward and do my part.

And those are the two reason I'm coming forward to tell the story.

- Well, Desmond, it is an incredibly powerful story.

Your courage is inspiring.

The book is "Red Roulette."

It is a fascinating and important read for anybody who cares about justice in the world.

Desmond, thank you so so much for being with us.

That is all the time we have this week for Story in the Public Square.

If you wanna know more about the show, you can find us on Facebook and Twitter or visit pellcenter.org.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join us again next time for more Story in the Public Square.

After we recorded this episode, Desmond Shum reported that just before the release of his book, "Red Roulette," he heard from his ex-wife, Whitney Duan.

Mr. Shum said that Ms. Duan told him that she was on a temporary release, that the charges against her were, quote, confidential.

According to Desmond, Whitney Duan also told him not to publish the book and asked him, quote, "What would happen to our son if something happened to you?"

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