- [Announcer] This program is made possible in part by a grant from Charlotte Metcalf.

- Afghanistan is known to most Americans as the site of America's longest war.

Since 2001, the United States has sent hundreds of thousands of its sons and daughters to fight extremists and hunt down the perpetrators of 9/11.

But Afghanistan is more than the war.

Today's guest has a unique perspective on her country's rich history and insights about its future.

She's Ambassador Adela Raz, this week on "Story in the Public Square."

(energetic music) Hello and welcome to "Story in the Public Square" where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

Alongside me is my friend and cohost, G. Wayne Miller of the Providence Journal.

Each week we talk about big issues with great guests, authors, journalists, artists and more, to make sense of the stories that shape public life in the United States today.

To help us this week, we're joined by Adela Raz, Afghanistan's ambassador and permanent representative to the United Nations.

Madame Ambassador, thank you so much for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- We want to talk to you about some of the current issues on the UN agenda, about the relationship between the United States and Afghanistan.

But let's talk a little bit about you because you have a fascinating story.

Obviously born and raised in Afghanistan.

At what point did you actually come to the United States?

- Thank you Jim for having me in the show.

If I start with myself, so it was in 2004 I came to the US.

And I came here because I got a scholarship to Simmons College at the time, and now it's called Simmons University.

- In beautiful Boston.

- It's beautiful, Boston yes, and I still have my bias to the New England area.

(laughing) - When you came over in 2004 though, what was your experience prior to that in Afghanistan?

How were you educated there?

- Sure, sure.

So I was raised and born in Afghanistan.

And I never left the country until 2004, as I came to the US.

And I was there during the Civil War.

I was there during the Taliban regime.

And it was during the Taliban time that I couldn't go to school for five years.

I stayed at home.

But I continued to have my education.

And that's exactly when I learned English.

Because at the time, schools usually taught English, but not at the level to be fluent.

I started to take classes at home and I learn English then.

- Wow.

- You said you couldn't go to school.

Was that because you were girl, a woman?

- [Adela] Yes, yes.

- Talk about that, there were policies that precluded-- - Correct, correct.

- Young Afghanistan women-- - Yes, yes.

I always tell people, I was raised and born in a family where education really mattered, and I was the eldest child.

I'm the only daughter, and I have three brothers.

So when I was growing up, I grow in a family where my parents were educated, and especially my father.

So for him... always he would tell us "Look, "education is a wealth that no one can steal it from you."

So for us it was almost so close to religion.

I could miss my prayers but not my homework.

So for me I knew my future will highly depend on my education, as a woman.

But at the time, when Taliban came in Kabul, in Afghanistan, and they said "Look, "women can not go to school."

It was heartbreaking, it really was.

- [G. Wayne] You had been in school before that and now all of a sudden you can't go.

- Suddenly, suddenly.

I remember it was an afternoon that I was supposed to go to school.

My father came from work.

And he came earlier because the security situation was not really good.

And he came and he told me, he said "You know what?

"Stay in because outside it's not really secure."

And it was just literally the regime change that was happening because the rumors were going around town the Taliban are coming today, in the town.

And we stayed in.

And the next morning I woke up and my dad went to the bakery to bring the bread.

And he came and he said "Look, Taliban are in town."

And he said "OK, you cannot go to school."

And I remember because we didn't have TVs at the time.

The TV station was almost gone.

And it was the radio, the radio.

The first announcement that came in was "For the time being" that was the announcement that said "For the time being, women are not able to go to school."

Or "They cannot go to school "because the schools are not well-designed Islamically."

And everyone knew this was just an excuse because according to Islam, woman have the right to go to school.

And it was according to the interpretation of the Taliban that women could not go to school.

So everyone knew this was the statement and this was the announcement to let everyone know that women cannot go to school.

And I couldn't, for five years.

I stayed home.

And I remember one thing, at that age, I was... nine and 10 and growing up in a family where school really matters.

So I was heartbroken.

And midnight I will wake up, 'cause there are specific prayers that we do.

And I would do that prayer, just really waiting for a miracle to happen, the regime change will happen and I would be able to go to school.

Because most of my friends could go, they went to Pakistan.

- Your female friends went to Pakistan to go to school?

- Yes, yes.

For families who could afford to leave the country they left to Pakistan and then they started to go to school.

But for my family and then economically it was hard, and also for my father.

He loved the country and he never wanted to leave the country at all.

- Talk a little bit about the experience of living in a regime that is that tightly controlled where you're saying to half the population, "You are less."

What's that like for an American audience who maybe hasn't experienced that kind of control?

- It's tough.

It's hard.

Especially at that age when you're just trying to figure out the world and you're just trying to figure out who you are and you're just trying to build up your confidence.

And you're suddenly told by the government, by the regime that "Look, there are certain limitations "for you, and these limitations are there "because you're a woman."

For instance, when I started to go to home schools for learning English, and I was still lucky among many other women because I lived mainly around middle class area where most educated people lived.

And there were home schools that I could go.

So I remember one day I was coming back from one of the home schools and I was carrying my English book.

And I had this big scarf covering the book.

And I saw the Taliban, the Vice and Virtue group who were walking around the streets.

And quote unquote, looking for people who were not dressed properly, including women.

Because women had to wear a burka.

I saw them, and I still remember I thought they're gonna see me and then will tell me why I'm not wearing a burka despite that I was pretty young.

But I was a little taller.

This is my height from my 12 years old.

(laughing) I remember I was so afraid.

I tried to repeat whatever verses of Koran I knew to keep repeating it inside and just wanted God to protect me.

And luckily, probably they saw me and they said "Oh, she's pretty young."

When I came home, and I told my mom, and I said "Look, I need a burka."

And of course I didn't have a burka.

So my mom borrowed one from my aunt.

And that's how it was.

So I had to wear a burka, cover my books and then dream for a day when I could study.

And that's why, when I came to the US, when I came and I went to Simmons, I did triple majors, and I finished in three and a half years.

And I had an extra credit of one semester.

People would tell me I'm crazy, why am I studying that hard?

For me, because...

I dreamed of a day that I would be able to study.

I wanted to take full advantage of that.

- You studied international relations, political science and economics.

- Yes.

- And you also got another master's degree in law and diplomacy from the Fletcher School at Tufts University.

- Yes.

- When you came to this country to come to university what was your expectation about what you would do after you graduated?

- Correct, good question.

When I came here I really wanted to go to law school.

Because back at home, law school is not the graduate school, it's an undergraduate degree.

So I came here and I started to explore the options.

And people told me "Look, if you want to go to law school, "you have to go to take liberal arts classes "and do a major in liberal arts, "and then that will help you, "something like political science "that will help you to go to law school."

So I started to declare my first major being political science.

And then thinking that I would go to law school.

And then I realized that for political science you have to take international relations classes.

When I started to take the international relations classes I realized well, this major is not complete without the international relations.

And when I took international relations classes, you have to take economics.

Couple of economics and I realized well the whole diplomacy depends on economics.

(laughing) So that's why I did triple major.

But the reason I changed my mind going to law school, I did an internship back at home at the UN at the time.

Because I really wanted to be a defense lawyer, for a woman, that's what my dream was.

And I did an internship with the UN at the time.

And we had the special reporter the UN has to write a report on violence against women.

So I traveled with her in Kabul, and in the country, around the country.

And we interviewed women in jail and prison.

And I realized I was pretty emotional person.

I couldn't really let the cases, deal with them professionally.

I will take them really personally because most of those dramatic stories took about six months in my personal life to get out of it.

So I realized, well you know what?

I won't be a good defense lawyer.

Because I will always be attached to my clients.

That's how I decided to move towards international development.

And I focused a lot on economics, diplomacy, things like that.

- So during that period you just described, you were essentially a storyteller, or a story listener.

(laughing) Did you write up what you found when you were going around Afghanistan during that period?

- Yes, we did, we did.

There was a report at the time that came out.

- And you wrote it?

- I didn't, it was the special reporter of the UN who wrote the report, but I worked with her.

- So then you get a job.

You're the first Female Deputy Spokesperson and Director of Communications for President Hamid Karzai.

That's a pretty big position.

- It is.

(laughing) - And you were still in your 20s?

- At the time, late 20s.

(laughing) - OK you were still in your 20s, how did you get that job?

It's a great position, what an honor.

But how did you come to the attention of the president?

- Good question.

So at the time I was working in Washington.

Because when I graduated Fletcher, and I always say Fletcher trained people to be global citizen.

So I really thought the world very big, and I said well I'm just gonna try to help the world globally, the way I can do.

And then my focus was on international development and working with developing countries.

So I worked with one of the international development organizations in Washington and I covered the Central Asia region including Afghanistan as well.

But didn't take too long, I started to realize I was so hooked up to my country and I couldn't let it go.

And it was literally just before the 2014 and the whole story of US troops withdrawal.

I realized being in Washington, and I was taught to lobby not to withdraw from Afghanistan because it's a country that it's still required at the time, support and help.

And I realized that I'm acting a little bit of hypocrite.

In a way that I was staying in Washington, in a more safer place, and I was pushing people to stay in the country.

So that's when I decided, and I said you know what?

I really wanted to go back.

Because everybody thought Afghanistan is a sinking boat.

And I said "I wanted to be in the sinking boat "to really make sure the boat doesn't sink."

- [G. Wayne] What a nice way to put it.

- (laughing) And that's how I started to look for jobs in the government.

But I really didn't think of working in the communication field and working with the president.

So I was looking in Ministry of Finance, The World Bank projects.

And then suddenly I came across this request by the President's Office at the time that they were looking for a qualified young woman to take the job as the first Deputy Spokeswoman.

And I said OK, because I was connected with Afghan diaspora in Washington.

And I started to reach out to couple of people and ask them to put their application.

And they did actually.

And somehow they didn't get the job.

And then I was asked why don't I submit my application?

And I said "Well, let me give it a try."

I did give it a try, I got the interview, and I got the job.

- Congratulations.

- Thank you.

- So you served then under the next president and you started your current position just this year, is that correct?

- Yes, that's true.

- So that required you to move to New York.

- Correct, correct.

- Just describe briefly what you do as a Permanent Ambassador to the United Nations, what your job entails.

And then I want to get into specific issues of interest to you and your country people.

- I arrived here, I arrived to New York actually, so here is Rhode Island.

I arrived to New York on March 1st as the first female Permanent Representative of Afghanistan to the UN.

In spite that we are among the founding member of the UN.

I came with my kids.

(laughing) So my job really entails, I remind my colleagues most of the time, I say "Look, "most of the missions, the permanent missions "of the UN have the luxury to identify their priorities.

"Because they just moved on with the natural pace."

Afghanistan almost losing 40 years of being a global engaged partner at the UN.

We have this catching up with everyone else that are there.

So we really don't have that luxury of prioritizing much.

Everything at the UN is a priority for us.

So really starting with the big task of really making sure we are doing our dues as a global partner, and as well as a country that still requires greater attention from the international community.

That's how the job is.

So the focus of my work right now is in different areas.

We do focus a lot on security issues, working very closely with Security Council.

Because UN has a great presence in Afghanistan, a big presence, and their mandate is always renewed by the UN Security Council.

So that takes a big part of my job.

Great focus towards women's issues, gender issues.

And that of course, I'm very biased, it's close to my heart.

It's close to my heart and also it's a very critical time for my country because we are on the verge of negotiating with Taliban.

A peace deal.

And then just historically looking with any peace deal around us, the first compromise is usually made around women's right, and especially negotiating with conservative groups like Taliban.

So my biggest constant fear is that we should not lose what we have gained so far in my country.

Because women in my country have really, really came forward and we have made tremendous progress.

- Can you give us a little bit of an update on sort of how the negotiations stand now?

- Sure.

- In my last understanding, we had another guest on earlier this year talking about the current state of negotiations.

And at least at some point, I know that the Taliban was refusing to negotiate with the government of Afghanistan.

They would only negotiate with the Americans.

Is that still true?

- That's still true.

- How does that leave the Afghan government in the context of... - Mm hmm.

Look Jim, it's not only the government, it's the people of Afghanistan, and how it leaves the people of Afghanistan, how do they feel about the negotiation?

I've said this many times, I think there is no doubt in how much the people of Afghanistan want to have peace in the country.

Because I tell people "Look, "some may talk about war and conflict and hear about it.

"But for us, we lived in it.

"We have lost our relatives.

"We have lost our family members.

"We have lost our friends."

So we truly know the value of peace, and we do want peace.

But the question in, with what price?

And what exactly means in terms of the negotiations?

And the absence of the government.

It's a legitimate government.

Yes, we might be at the time where people are starting to question about the whole concept of democracy, does it work or not?

Multilateralism, but look we might be among few outliers, that it's a nation pro-democracy.

We have achieved what we have achieved so far with blood and treasure through the contribution of our allies and friends, and support of the international community and people of Afghanistan.

Vote in my country is just not simple right that people exercise.

Vote in my country means fight for it.

And lose your life in order to vote.

It's just not to walk out from your home and then you go and you vote.

Peoples' fingers are cut because they have voted.

So this is the way we have tried to achieve the semi-democratic institution and representative democracy that we have.

And today, being in a space where the negotiations are happening, and the Taliban are constantly denying, they will not speak to the government of Afghanistan, it really brings this big question, why?

What are their good reason?

Are they afraid?

And of course, they are afraid.

- I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit.

- OK. (laughing) - If you wanna duck this question I completely understand.

The United States had security partners in Northern Syria in the case of the Kurds.

And to a lot of observers, it would appear that the Trump administration, President Trump in particular basically just walked away from them.

And said you're on your own.

And we're gonna protect what we want to protect, but if the Turks are gonna come in, the Turks are gonna come in.

How does that experience, which is still very fresh, we're talking about weeks since this happened to when we're talking today, how does that shape the way your government views America's role in these negotiations with the Taliban?

Does it unsettle you?

- We are pretty assured of, and confident of the mutual interest that exists between the government of Afghanistan and the government of US.

Meaning there is no doubt about the intention of the US government.

When I talked about being among the outliers, where multilateralism work is truly because the US absolutely have proven to work for the national interest of my country because we have a shared interest in Afghanistan.

So that doubt or that concern doesn't exist.

But I think what really is important is the nature of negotiations.

I think we do have a shared interest of the US government and my government, it's the same thing.

Peace and prosperity in Afghanistan.

We want to end the bloodshed in Afghanistan.

More than anyone, I think it's the government of Afghanistan it's the people of Afghanistan realizing the pressure that exists here at the government right now, and the US public.

Because you have contributed into where we are right now through your tax payments.

It's a very natural question to ask about it, OK what is happening to Afghanistan for the last 18 years we're contributing and then we're still hearing that there's bloodshed.

Still civilians are dying.

And there's still conflict.

Are we making the wrong investment?

And my answer to the American public would be no!

You have made the right investment and I am the result of it.

What really we have to acknowledge is how the story is covered.

I always remind people the story is not a balanced story in here.

Because we only hear about what is not working well.

But what we don't hear is what have worked so far well.

I think right now Afghanistan has a legitimate government, has the right government.

It's a new country with the younger generation taking the lead in being in the leadership positions.

We value democracy.

We value our freedom.

We value our partnership.

We value our commitment to the international community.

That's why what is really important that we must make sure to preserve and protect the gains we have made in that last 18 years.

And those are shared gains, shared gains of us and gains of the US government.

So I think there is no doubt in the right intention that exists.

But what is really, really important is to understand the cautiousness and the patience that it requires to end the conflict.

And we will end the conflict.

- You talk about the things that you value.

One of the things that you didn't mention is a free press.

- Absolutely.

- Talk about that.

- Yes.

- The press is free in Afghanistan.

- Yes.

- It's not censored, it's not government run.

And we can name any number of countries around the planet.

Talk about why that happened and why that is and how that's important.

- Sure, sure.

That's another great achievement.

Thank you for bringing it in.

Not too long ago, when I talked about the Taliban time, and even before the Taliban time, there was only one TV channel and that was the national TV.

There was one radio and that was the national radio.

So imagine we came from the Soviet era, went to the Civil War and then the Taliban regime.

Now... in the region, I wanted to be diplomatic, and not name countries, but, we are among the countries with the most free press.

That's the product, and the outcome of last 18 years.

And I can say with much confidence, it's the most free press compared to any other country in our region.

And it's critical, it's independent.

And it's very critical!

I will encourage people to just watch the recent presidential interviews that one of our famous TV channels had in Kabul.

The way they raise the question I think, not in many countries, people would have the courage to ask a president or nominees or people who are running for election.

This is what the new Afghanistan is.

And because... predominantly, our media is run by the younger generation.

And I think that's another acknowledgement we have to make.

Because the younger generation in Afghanistan is more pro-democratic values, open-minded, connected to the outside world compared to the younger generation in our region.

That their tendency is more towards extremism.

Because I always remind people and say "Look for us, "for Afghans, for us, war is not a myth, "we lived in it," as I said.

We know what extremism brings us.

So by default, our tendency and interest is to move towards a multilateral world in a country that's well connected.

So I think that's where that understanding should exist.

We have to just embrace this new country where women are taking the leadership position.

And I also tell people "Look, "yes, I am the first female ambassador at the UN.

"But our ambassador in Washington is also a woman."

And this is no one would have thought ever before Afghanistan will be, in two very critical position, women will represent the country.

- We've only got a bout 30 seconds left, time goes way too fast.

- Sure.

- But if there's one thing that you would want the American public to know, what would it be?

- I think I will humbly ask them do not doubt your investment.

Do not question what you have done, it didn't bring goods to my country, it did.

You have done an amazing job.

And that nation, especially the younger generation knows the value of it.

We're really in a critical time in a way that we are negotiating the peace agreement, or the peace deal with the Taliban.

But what is really important that that deal must preserve our gains.

We should not think it's a lost case, and we are not gonna win, so let's go to something as a compromise, we should not make a compromise.

- It's a powerful story.

- Yeah thank you so much.

Ambassador Adela Raz, thank you so much for being with us.

That's all the time we have this week.

But if you want to know more about "Story in the Public Square," you can find us on Facebook and Twitter or visit pellcenter.org where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join us again next time for more "Story in the Public Square."

(energetic music) - [Announcer] This program is made possible in part by a grant from Charlotte Metcalf.

(bright acoustic guitar strumming)