(no audio) (no audio) (no audio) - One constant human wish is for the longevity of the people we love.

Today's guest explores the coming era of super-aging where more and more of us will live more than a century with dramatic consequences for retirement, finances, relationships, and even the politics of the next century.

He's William J. Kole this week on "Story in the Public Square."

(bright music) (bright music continues) Hello and welcome to "Story in the Public Square" where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from The Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller also with Salve's Pell Center.

- Our guest this week is a legendary newsman who's covered everything from war crimes to Princess Diana's fatal car accident.

William J. Kole is also the author of "The Big 100: The New World of Super-Aging."

Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.

- Great to be with you both.

Thank you.

- So I mentioned this to you when we were in the green room but the book is both interesting, fun, entertaining.

But that fun part surprised me 'cause I think typically when I think about aging it's with sort of a sense of dread.

This had to be intentional, right?

There was some thought behind a more optimistic look at aging?

- Absolutely.

You know, our futures, in a super-age society will be bleak and bright.

And honestly, optimism and positivity do have a lot to do with how long we live.

That's how I close out the book.

There are a lot of heavy situations going on, questions about our cognitive abilities as we age and so forth.

But keeping focus on the bright side is key.

And I didn't want the bleakness to overtake all the positive things.

- Well, some of the statistics in this are really sort of staggering.

So you note that by 2050 the world's centenarian population, those people who are a hundred years of age or more, will increase eightfold.

And you also say that of today's five year olds, half of them can expect to live to a hundred years or more.

What explains that?

Why are we going to live so much substantially longer in my lifetime?

- So it's a little counterintuitive because COVID just dinged our collective life expectancy.

But that's expected to be a temporary situation.

We'll recover fairly quickly from that.

There are two dynamics at play.

One is demographic.

Baby boomers are a large generation in this country and indeed around the world.

One in five Americans is a boomer.

The oldest of those... And I'm a boomer too.

So is Wayne, I think if I- - (laughs) Yes, I am, Bill.

- The oldest boomers right now are in their late 70s.

And so in the next 25 years, the fittest of those will be aging into triple digits and it's a big deal demographically.

So that's the demographic piece.

And then there is the medical and scientific piece where we are having continued breakthroughs in how we treat the things that kill us, heart disease, stroke, cancer.

And so that's why Stanford's Center on Longevity is projecting that one in every five year olds, one in every two five year olds alive right now is gonna see 100.

- That's amazing!

- So according to the Census Bureau, and this is in your book, the number of Americans aged 85 and older will nearly double to almost 12 million in the next couple of decades.

And not long after that, there'll be 19 million.

Put that in the context of the 1920s when the life expectancy was 61.

Give us the historical context of this.

I mean, that is a really quantum leap in just a few years, relatively speaking.

- Absolutely.

No question about it.

In fact, a hundred years ago, we were living half as long as we do today.

And you know, again, science deserves the credit.

You know, we are in a culture right now where science seems to be under attack, but we have to credit science for lengthening our lives.

I think the big killer for many years was smallpox.

It was the big one and it killed indiscriminately.

And once we got a vaccine for that, we turned the corner, and subsequent medical breakthroughs added to our years - Are there lifestyle changes that are a factor here too as well?

And we're gonna get into some of the things you can do to extend your longevity but lifestyle, and that's diet, exercise, socializing, and- - Do I have to eat kale?

That's really the question.

- (laughs) No, you do not have to eat kale.

(all laugh) If you do, make it organic.

Okay.

- Yeah, you don't have to eat kale.

But yes, to answer your question.

We can kind of game the system and advantage ourselves in the game of life, if you will, by exercising regularly, by eating clean food.

You know, there are a lot of genetics that determine how long we will live, but it's interesting that about 75% of getting to 90, it involves things that are under our control.

So that's our diet, exercise, sun exposure, an important one in Rhode Island where we have so many beaches and we like to lie in the sun, but you know, we gotta watch that.

So these are things we can do.

Once you hit 90 and then on the road to a hundred, everything flips, and then you have genetics accounting for about 75% of the equation.

So then that depends on how we're wired in our family trees and what goods we got from our parents and our grandparents.

- You know, Bill, what does it mean though if we're a society where, you know, in the United States you work until your mid-sixties, you collect social security.

The idea is you might live, if you're lucky, another 20 years.

If you might live 40 years or more, what does that mean for society, for politics, for the way we think about those golden years?

- And economics?

Your income, obviously.

- Oh, that's a big question.

You know, if I'm gonna live to a hundred, how am I gonna find enough money to pay a hundred years worth of bills?

This is gonna upend everything we thought we knew about the economy, about personal finance, about social safety nets and so forth.

And there are experts I talked to who are urging a rethink of all of these things, starting with social security, which was at its inception people only lived a few years after retiring.

And now if they're going to live that long it's gonna be depleted very quickly.

- Anyway, I think about the politics in France this summer where they are trying to raise the retirement age and it's literally led to violence in the streets.

- Yeah, I mean, people wanna know that they're not gonna outlive their money.

And there are other things that play there around work-life balance, which is very elusive, especially in this country.

But yes, we have to think about the long game and how we're positioned to have enough money to pay bills and enough health to live those extra years in a way that we'll be satisfied with.

- So speaking of health, Medicare is a big piece of this as well because many older people, probably most, I don't know the statistics, rely on Medicare for their healthcare.

Talk about that.

What is needed there?

I mean, a lot of people, including Senator Warren, have been sounding the alarm on this.

What do we need to do there to ensure that when you're a hundred you can still have healthcare?

- These are budget busters in our government spending, but we cannot neglect them and we need to fund Medicare and social security better and more fully.

Social security is projected to start to be depleted in 10 years from now.

And you know, if we don't do something about that, given these demographics with people living longer and relying on social security even more, we're gonna be in really deep trouble.

- Do you think we will be able, we, meaning this country, will be able to summon the political will to do that?

We live, as we well know, in a very divided society in terms of politics.

- Right.

I think that not doing something is not an acceptable alternative.

Neglecting action is a political third rail and no one wants to step on that.

The danger, I think, is that we wait too long and then we have a haphazard, unthoughtful approach to how we're going to deal with the shortfalls in how social security is funded.

That's not good.

We have time now.

Let's fix it now.

- So one of the questions that I think lingers in a lot of people's minds when we think about aging is, okay, so science and demographics and some good luck and maybe living healthy and right gives us the chance to add years to our life, but will we have life in those extra years?

And so, you know, what's it gonna be like to live to a hundred reliably?

What's it gonna be like?

Is 80 the new 60?

What does that actually look like?

- In some ways 80 is the new 60.

We're seeing this.

People are very active.

People, in some instances, are still working, still creating and contributing to society.

But I think that any conversation about lifespan is incomplete if we don't talk about health span.

And that is, of course, the amount of time that we can live full lives.

We have our independence, our health, our mobility, and we can continue to do the things that we love.

So without health span, a long life is kind of a grim proposition.

- So you devote a lot of the book to disparities.

This vision of living longer to a hundred and more is not in the cards for people of color certainly.

Indigenous people as well and people on the lower end of the economic scale.

Talk about that.

I mean, this is a story of two groups of people.

How can we address that?

What are the issues there?

- I'm so glad you brought that up.

This was actually the biggest surprise as I researched the book was to see the racial inequity in aging.

I knew about it, but I didn't realize how stark.

So excluding Asia, around the world, nine in 10 centenarians are white.

And in this country it's closer to eight in 10 centenarians.

But that's still a very white space.

And I can't imagine something as basic of a human right than time itself.

The average white American is outliving the average black American by about six years.

I have a six-year-old grandson and I think of all the life he's experienced in that six years already.

This is unconscionable that we don't close this gap.

- Do we know what... What explains the gap?

- So there's a thing called weathering theory that many scientists and gerontologists are supporting and looking at.

It's the idea that years of systemic racism take a toll, a cumulative toll, on black and brown bodies.

It begins with in youth and in childhood and in young adulthood.

Outcomes for black mothers are poor compared to white women.

And it just continues throughout life with toxic stress.

This is something I really spend a lot of time on in the book - Critical, critical.

- Toxic stress because it really affects us on the cellular level.

And people of color have more stress just trying to make ends meet, dealing with white-on-black police brutality, other injustices in our society.

And it takes a toll on our bodies.

- So you write about a number of people who lived exceptionally long lives, already have.

And I wanna hear you talk about the late French woman, Jeanne Calment.

- Jeanne Calment.

- Jeanne Calment.

Thank you.

I'm- - Yeah, work on your French accent.

- I need to work on my French.

My French was never good.

In fact, I never actually spoke it.

She died on August 4th, 1997, at the age of 122 years and 164 days.

And you had the opportunity actually to see her during an interview.

Tell us about her.

How did she live that long?

What was it like being in a room with her?

She was funny.

- She really hit the genetic jackpot.

Tom Perls at Boston University's New England Centenarian Study talks about how in order to attain an age like that it's like hitting all five lottery numbers and then the Powerball.

And she hit that.

She was a remarkable person.

She vividly recalled traveling to Paris as a young girl while the Eiffel Tower was still under construction.

And she worked in her father's art supply store in the southern city of Arles and sold colored pencils to Vincent Van Gogh while he was experimenting with impressions.

- When he still had both ears, right?

- Yes.

- That was a little twist.

- She said he still had his ear.

And she had a vivid memory of Van Gogh as very ill tempered, and his breath smelled of absinthe.

(chuckles) An amazing woman.

- There have been claims though that people have lived longer but not documented.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

How do you document how long somebody has lived?

Do you need a birth certificate that's confirmed and valid and legitimate, I guess?

- Absolutely.

Yeah, we've all seen the supermarket tabloids where we see this story of a 150-year-old man emerging from the Brazilian rainforest or something like this.

And, you know, we can't really say for sure that somebody hasn't lived longer than Jeanne Calment but she's the oldest person whoever lived whose age could be authenticated by records.

In her case, she grew up Catholic in France so there are birth records, baptismal certificates, and other church and secular records that establish her age beyond a doubt.

Some of these people we read about don't have any of those bonafides, credentials.

- So, you know, you mentioned already the corrosive effect of stress.

One of the things that struck me about Jeanne was her optimism and sort of just her approach to life seemed full of zest and the gleefulness.

How important is that as we think about aging and living longer?

- It's really important.

Keeping a positive outlook, studies have shown it adds to our years.

It erases some of the effects of toxic stress.

There are studies that suggest that it could add as much as six years to our lives.

Just being... People who are married live longer than people who are by themselves.

In the book, I talk about that a little bit.

You know, marriage is the stuff of standup comedy but, aggravation aside and bickering and so forth, we live longer when we have a partner.

And people who have a religious belief live longer.

Studies bear this out.

So there are real benefits to just keeping your chin up and looking on the bright side.

- So one of the people you interviewed, and this was many times, for the book was Jane Goodall, and I happened to meet her a number of years ago at the University of Rhode Island and was very impressed.

Talk about her, your impressions of her.

She is, I think, 89 now and still a very active researcher, philanthropist.

Talk about Jane.

- Yeah, Jane is an extraordinary person.

She's working harder now than she ever worked, even, you know, back in the '60s when she was doing her pioneering work in Tanzania with chimpanzees.

She travels the world, she's on the road all the time.

And, you know, she kind of personifies what we can expect in a super-aging world when we are working longer, when we are able to maintain our health and our mental abilities and our passions.

So she just keeps working.

And I interviewed her just to kind of shine a spotlight on what things could be like.

She's not the only one.

You know, Betty White lived to 99.

John Williams, the great conductor, just became the oldest person whoever was nominated for an Academy Award.

- Bob Barker, who just died at the age of 99.

- Did you happen to ask Jane how long she wants to live?

- She's happy to continue living as long as the good Lord gives her years.

That said, of course, she works in conservation, and with all that's happening with the climate, she's working almost with more of a sense of urgency because of what's happening.

And, of course, that's the wild card, right?

We will live longer, but our planet is degrading and this could create a perfect storm of a very unpleasant a hundred years for some of us.

- You know, one of the things that I think a lot of families grapple with in the United States is sort of age-related disease.

I think about dementia in particular.

And you write about this at some length in the book.

We've had other guests on the show, Lisa Genova, talk about this rising wave of dementia in society and what that's gonna look like in the next 50 years.

That intersects profoundly with the population that you're talking about.

What does the future hold to the extent that we can tell now about dementia and those age-related diseases of neurological variety?

- It's a great question.

Honestly, I think we can all draw some hope around that area in particular.

The research is leading to some new understanding of how dementia occurs.

Some treatments, no cures yet, but the FDA has started to approve some drugs to slow the effects.

But there was a study done in the Netherlands of 340 centenarians aged, I think, a hundred to 108.

And the great majority of them showed no cognitive decline at all.

And these were people who were 103, 104, 105.

And then, as part of the terms of the study, they agreed to have their brains looked at upon their deaths.

And when the scientists looked at their brains, incredibly they found the same kind of plaques and tangles that are telltale signs of Alzheimer's disease, and yet, somehow they never experienced any impairment.

So unlocking the secrets to that is really what the focus is now - That's profound.

- So other generations do not necessarily look kindly on people of our age.

And I'm thinking of, "Okay boomer," which gets into the issue of ageism.

How do you counter that narrative?

I mean, I don't know if, "Okay boomer" is still being used, but it was very popular as a meme for quite a while.

How do you counter that narrative look, 'cause ageism is real?

- Ageism is real.

- The meme was sort of comical, but underlying it is ageism.

- Bad news for millennials and Gen Z.

The boomers are still, and Gen Xers right behind them, are going to be in power for a long time and hold the levers of power in this country.

And so the influence of millennials and Gen Z is gonna be a little diminished.

And that's what led to this frustration around "okay boomer."

It's gonna take some time before their day comes.

There is rampant ageism.

I think that in the book I talk to people like Bill McKibben, who runs Third Act.

It's a movement of older people trying to fix the planet for the next generation and trying to get a grasp of our old sort of radical roots from the '60s, you know, to do something.

To improve things.

It's really gonna be on older people to step aside when they feel like it's time to yield the floor.

- That's a profound thought.

I think about the leadership in Washington right now, and both major parties are dominated by people pushing 80, if not over 80.

I wanna talk to you about Blue Zones.

This was not something I'd heard of before I read your book.

- Yeah, me neither.

- And I wonder if you could explain that for our audience, what they are and why they're significant.

- So there are some places in the world where researchers have identified people who seem to age better than in other places.

There's a handful of these.

Only one in the United States, Loma Linda, California.

But there is Sardinia in Italy, the Nicoya Peninsula in Costa Rica, and Okinawa in Japan.

And these are places where people tend to live longer and healthier lives.

The myth, honestly, is that they are centenarian factories.

In fact, really when you look at the numbers, they only produce nominally more centenarians than any other place.

Centenarians occur in a remarkably stable ratio of about one in 5,000 around the world.

But what we can learn from the Blue Zones is how they roll through life.

The Mediterranean diet or something like it is a common denominator.

Living in community, having good social contacts, and dealing with stress.

We keep coming back to this stress question 'cause it is the enemy of longevity.

- So your mother is alive and well and living independently.

She's 92.

Her mother, your grandmother, lived to almost 104.

You're 62.

That means you could only be halfway through your life.

Do you wanna live another 62 years?

- I'm game.

(all laugh) - We're with you.

We're fully for you.

- Yes, right.

Again, I think that there's a caveat, and many Americans and others around the world feel the same way I do.

It really depends.

Will I have mobility?

Will I have my mental faculties intact?

AARP and National Geographic did an interesting survey and they asked people, "If you could take a pill that would add 10 years to your life, would you swallow?"

And about three in four people said, "yes."

But very interestingly, those who were 80 and older were a little more skeptical about that because they were beginning to experience the effects of being older and they weren't sure that they wanted to continue down that road.

So, if I could be healthy, I'm not saying I'm still gonna run marathons, (hosts laugh) but if I could be healthy, bring it on.

- Well, Bill, the book is remarkable.

It's "The Big 100."

Thank you so much for being with us today.

That is all the time we have this week.

But if you wanna know more about "Story in the Public Square," you can find us on Facebook and Twitter or visit pellcenter.org where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join us again next time for more "Story in the Public Square."

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