- Everyone has a ghost story.

A personal family experience, something that happened to a friend, an uncle, or even ourselves.

Today's guest tells us, that sometimes these stories are comforting and sometimes they are not.

But there's a lot we can learn from them.

She's Amy Bruni, this week, at Story in the Public Square.

(inspirational music) Hello and welcome to a Story in the Public Square where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes, from The Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

Joining me as always, is my friend and co-host G. Wayne Miller of The Providence Journal.

Each week, we talk about big issues with great guests, authors, journalists, artists and more, to make sense of the big stories shaping public life in the United States today.

This week we're joined by Amy Bruni.

A paranormal investigator, host of the travel channel's hit show, Kindred Spirits, and author of a new book "Life With The Afterlife" 13 Truths I Learned About Ghosts.

Amy, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thanks for having me.

- So, you know, the book is phenomenal and the shows are great.

And so we wanna talk to you about all of that.

But, tell us a little bit about when you first saw a ghost.

- Well, actually, my first, I had a few paranormal experiences as a child, but the one that stood out the most that really started raising questions for me was when I saw a full bodied apparition, standing outside a second story window in the house that I grew up in an Alameda, California.

And, the way that was situated there's no way someone could have been standing outside that window.

And then later on my mom and I found out that there used to be a wrap around porch there.

So, there was a point in time where someone could have stood there.

And from that point on, I was hooked.

- Did you, were you scared, or were you frightened?

- It's funny because I was not taught to be afraid of ghosts at that point.

You know, and a lot of kids are kind of that way.

It's more of like a curiosity.

If they haven't been taught, goes through a scary thing they don't get scared.

For me, it was more, I had more of like a stranger danger moment.

(chuckles) Where I was like, who is this strange man?

I need to get my mom.

That was my first thought.

And then I kinda processed the fact that there was no way someone could have been standing there.

- So both both of your parents were into the supernatural or very interested in the supernatural.

Your mother used to talk about seeing a little boy run between rooms.

And your dad, explored the supernatural with his research.

So it was normal for ghosts to be in your life growing up.

Is that a fair statement?

- Yeah, I would absolutely say so.

I mean, for us, it was, obviously, it wasn't like a living or anything.

It was just an interest that my parents had and the way they talked about it was so matter of fact.

And, you know, they're just like sometimes there's ghosts.

And, I never thought that it was a scary thing.

You know, obviously, since then, I've had many scary ghost experiences, but, being raised in that environment it just really peaked my curiosity and that never, it never went away.

I just, I continued to read about the history of spiritualism and ghosts and still to this day.

I'm so curious.

- Why did our friends and neighbors think about your house and your family?

I mean it was not your quote unquote average family, at least.

- I think if they didn't know us very well we were pretty average, you know.

But I think that we had some neighbors, I talked about this in the book, you know, they used to come over for dinner all the time.

I played with their son and they had a few experiences in the house when they came over to visit.

And there was at one point when they were basically saying that the spirits, they weren't sure they were real.

And they weren't sure if the house was haunted.

And at that point, this picture came off the wall and hovered for a second and then crashed to the ground and they left the house and they never set foot in our house again.

The mom would come to like, the, she would let her son come over but she would stand like on the lawn to come get him.

She, they never set foot in that house again after that.

- So Amy, in your book "Life With The Afterlife," you say pretty candidly that you don't really know what the paranormal activities are.

But what's your best guess?

- Well, I think from my interaction with what I believe could be spirits I do think that they are some bit of us that's left behind after we pass.

I do think that classic idea of unfinished business sometimes holds a piece of someone's consciousness here.

That is my best guess, but I will never claim to say that that's absolutely what a ghost is.

You know, you never know if it's gonna be explained one day, with quantum physics or time feels like there's so many possibilities and the more that we do this and the more kind of strange experiments we do, you know, the more questions we have.

And so that's why I make a really big point in the book to never speak in absolutes.

You know, I'm just sharing my ideas and I love hearing other's ideas and what they think of ghosts and spirits could be.

- So you also write that ghosts are people too, and it's important to respect their free will to the extent that they still have it and most important, respect their personal beliefs.

That's a big concept.

Talk about that and certainly is an intriguing a new concept for me until I read your book.

- Yeah, you know, if spirits are in fact, you know, a bit of a person left behind.

I started to realize we were kind of doing maybe a potential, disservice in either trying to shoo them away and cleanse the space, or, and just not listening to them.

And, you know, we've found in our investigations the second we start really identifying who these spirits could be and talking to them on a level like I'm talking to you right now, the interactions we got were a lot more intriguing.

And, so that's, that's really, it was just, I felt like I said, we were being just sort of dismissive to this idea and making them into something spooky and making them a novelty.

But once you think about yourself in that position and you're desperately trying to reach out for someone and you keep trying, and then they just leave you there.

It's kind of, it's scary to think about really.

- It's almost seems lonely.

I mean, that was, there were a couple of different passages in your book where you described the encounters, that left me with a sense of sadness.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

- Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

You know, it's, there were moments.

I think really the turning point for me was, Adam and I were investigating a place called Waverly Hills in Louisville, Kentucky.

And I used to be on a show called Ghost Hunters years ago.

And really the idea of that show was to kind of walk in, get some evidence of a spirit and go, yep, your place is haunted.

See you later.

You know, and that was the first time where, not the first time, but we had a very long interaction in and the nurses waiting there.

And, we felt these spirits, they were communicating through series of knocks.

And we also got some EVPs which are electronic voice phenomenon.

And, they were desperate to talk to us.

And, they just communicated for so long and it was very emotional.

And then we just had to leave them.

And we cried the whole way, walking down that hallway, leaving.

And they were knocking on the wall following us the whole way out the building.

And then I even got back to my hotel room, the sun was coming up and I'm trying to go to sleep.

And I hear a knock, knock on my wall.

Like they have actually followed and wanted to continue the conversation.

And, so it's just moments that I think really are what brought about the show, Kindred Spirits, but also you know, made me want to write this book.

- Have you done a lot of other work in old or closed institution?

psychiatric institutions, tuberculosis sanatoria I know in my own writing, I've been inside places like that, and they are, they're spooky.

I've not had a ghost experience there although I have elsewhere, but, so have you done more work in those places and why would they be particularly rich with spirits to put it that way?

- I have been in many of them.

And I think that, just the sheer number.

Well, a lot of the older institutions there the mistreatment of patients there was awful, especially when you get into some of the older asylums and things.

And, I think that there is that trauma, you know, there is an idea that like no traumatic events, you leave behind something whether that's actually a piece of someone's consciousness or if that's just some sort of residual energy, you know, that's something you have to kind of go in and ascertain as an investigator.

But I also think there when you have that many people who've passed on like Waverly Hills for example, they estimate anywhere up to 10,000 people could have passed away there over the years.

And each one of those folks has a story and, you know, you never know why they could be lingering.

And so, it is kind of going through and it makes it a much more massive operation for sure because we have to kind of identify them one by one and figure out why they're lingering but, it's so much more than just, you know, I died here.

It's usually something a lot more intense.

- One of the things that I love about the way you approach your episodes and even the storytelling in this book is, you're doing more than just sort of going out, looking for ghosts.

You're uncovering the history of institutions, of what life was like in those places.

And of individuals who may be the spirit left behind.

Talk to us a little bit about the use of pursuing the afterlife.

And also what that tells us about our own history.

- History is a huge part of what we do.

You know, I can sit all day and try to prove the existence of ghosts.

And people can be skeptical about it or not.

But I will absolutely make sure my history is right.

(chuckles) You know, that is one thing that I can prove and I can get records of.

And, so that's something that, you know, I can without a doubt get correct if I do my due diligence.

And it's a big part of investigating.

And I think that some people turn to the paranormal because they had a love of history and it kind of led them down the path of ghosts and then vice versa.

You know, some people, you know, just come into it and suddenly realize that history is such an intense part of it which I, you know, as an historical researcher, I love.

And so we, we look past just the ghosts when it comes to the history.

There's actually a lot of, you know, we like to spotlight historical societies because they're, you know, they're dying really if you think about it, especially now, you know, we like to spotlight local history and got it correct.

Like we just did the Valley and locally here in Rhode Island and uncovered this whole, like 400 year old murder mystery.

So there's, there's something to that.

And, we just wanna make sure we get it correct.

- So in sort of the classic ghost hunting expedition and there were a lot of clubs that still do this there were obviously TV shows, they use special equipment.

And I don't profess to understand what that equipment is.

But my question for you is, do you use any kind of equipment?

I mean, obviously you've got camera crews, but I mean in terms of the actual paranormal research tell us about that.

- Yes, absolutely.

So, for me, when I first got into this or when tech really started taking over ghost hunting.

There was a time where tech was very big and there's really not a lot.

Well now there's more gadgets that are made specifically for paranormal investigation.

For a while, we were just kind of adapting to what was out there and using things that were built for other functions and using them in the paranormal.

So that was interesting to me.

And, then I started to realize that, really didn't matter how much evidence I got, it was spirit.

You know, if I got an EMF reading which is big when you're ghost hunting, or if I got a a full bodied apparition caught on camera, I was doing that 'cause I wanted to prove the existence of ghosts to people.

And then when I realized there's never gonna be enough proof for some people, I've shifted back to using things that I felt were good for communication like using a digital voice recorder, you know, using cameras to kind of set up the stage I know.

What my layout is, if I wanna look back at something later.

But I shifted away from a lot of the tech.

And so, we still use like EMF detectors and things like that.

But I focus a lot on personal experience and having conversations.

And, you know, we do use spirit boxes which are this kind of thing that creates white noise that we think spirits can manipulate and make words from and things.

But, that's kind of more high tech stuff we've really kind of walked away from.

I also think it might be intimidating to them.

Like if I'm walking in and you know we walk into a space and you're like here's all these crazy things you've never seen before ghost from the 1800 (indistinct) - Yeah, boy, I could get that.

You know, in your writing and in your work, the quality of empathy is so significant.

Talk about that.

You, you clearly have empathy for ghosts.

And, and then I wanna get into people who live in haunted place.

But start with the empathy that you feel towards these spirits.

That seems distinctive or certainly different from, again, the classic, you know, traditional ghost hunting thing.

- Well, you know, I realized when we do EVP work which is where you use a voice recorder and ask questions and then play it back and you'll get responses sometimes you know, voices that weren't there when you were asking the questions originally.

The top two EVPs that we would get were help me and get out.

(laughs) So, I realized like, how many of these folks are asking for help and how many of them are so upset that they're just over it and then they want us to leave.

And I just started putting kind of, I started humanizing them.

And it just completely changed the way we investigated.

You know, now I walk into a space and I basically act as though I'm walking into a room with a bunch of people and I'm introducing myself and I'm trying to make them comfortable with me.

As opposed to, you know, walking in and being like, do you know you're dead?

You know.

(chuckles) I try to just be conversational.

And, you know, many of these people in theory could have gone through something awful or traumatic, or there's some sort of unfinished business they need help with.

And a little bit of kindness goes a long way.

- You also, you also have a kindness and empathy for people who live in places, not homes particularly, that are haunted.

And I want to read a quote from your co-star Chip Coffey which I really liked it regarding your work.

And he said, "it's almost like social work for the living and the dead."

Explain that for us.

- Well, some of the more haunted homes that we go into you know, some of these families have been dealing with this paranormal activity for years, and they've either been too afraid to say something or they feel like people don't believe them.

I mean, we've actually encountered people who have legitimate PTSD from some of their experiences that they've had.

And anxiety issues.

Like it's so much more than just my house is haunted.

For people who are living in a violently haunted home, it is traumatic and there's not anyone they can turn to.

Other than someone like me, you know, if they bring it up to, like a therapist or something if that therapist doesn't believe it ghosts then they're gonna think something entirely different could be going on.

And so, so it is kind of like doing social work.

And then also there's some times when there's family issues going on, it can raise the activity level in a space.

The energy can change.

Spirits can get more kind of active because of that.

And so we kind of have to identify that going in as well.

And, and then we're not mental health professionals by any stretch.

But we do sometimes have to have that conversation that you know, we do feel like someone might need to, you know, explore some medical possibilities.

So, it's a very interesting conversation to have here and there.

And it's, there's so much more to it than just going in and trying to find a ghost.

- Amy, do you get scared?

- I do.

I get startled.

(chuckles) You know, there was a time, you know, if I see something there's this like processing moment that happens.

So for example, I saw an apparition in an asylum or this man just appeared right in front of me, full bodied apparition, and disappeared.

And, he was very angry.

And, that moment was very scary to me.

Because that, it just your body it's not just your brain kind of going through this your body goes through like, kind of this spider flight moment, where you feel like this is unnatural.

Something is strange here, and your instinct is to run.

And so, those kinds of things startled me but then I had to process it and I go through all of the possibilities of what it could have been if it was actually a spirit.

And then I kind of like have to talk myself down a little bit, but, but yeah, I definitely do.

And also a lot of the places we go have, you know animals and strange things that will jump out at you that aren't ghost related.

(chuckles) - Have you ever felt in danger?

I mean, from both, you know, the environment, you know, the animals and dark places and old close institutions but, from ghosts.

Have you ever, you know, you talked about flight or fight, have you ever felt like, oh my God my life is really at risk at this moment.

- I have not, not from spirits.

You know, I'm very confident in my ability to handle something like that.

I am definitely aware, like I said, and like you mentioned aware of some of the locations we go into and how dangerous they can be.

You know, I filmed Ghost Hunters until I was eight months pregnant.

And so, you know, that was probably the one time where I was very conscious of some of these really old, dangerous buildings we go into.

And so that to me is much scarier but it's still living that scared me a lot more than the dead.

There have definitely been a few homes I've walked into where I wasn't sure that the homeowner was entirely stable.

You know, that kind of thing, especially some of the ones I did prior to being on camera.

So that to me is scarier.

But the dead, I feel like I can handle.

(chuckles) - You know, one of the things that we've talked about a little bit on the show is this idea of esoteric knowledge, knowledge that's hidden to the rest of the world.

Right.

And I wonder if you have any thoughts about sort of the appeal of that in American life today.

This idea that there are secrets or just knowledge, other worldly knowledge sometimes, that we just, you know, only the few privileged have access to.

Do you have any thoughts about that phenomena in America today?

- I'm actually surprised that more people don't pay attention to it.

You know what, I mean I feel like we basically had like government confirmation of UFO's existing recently.

And it just kind of went... - It was like the fifth story in the news right?

(laughs) - In fairness to journalists it's been kind of a busy four years of news.

Okay, just saying.

- Exactly, exactly.

So, I guess if this was the year to release it this was the year to do it, but, you know, to me, so you're folks and you're terrifying But, I was just shocked, you know people in my circle and like, and in the paranormal field they were just like, this is insane.

And so it's crazy to me that there are, that people don't seem to be paying as much attention to things like that as I feel like they used to.

But the ones who do, there is a very deep and intense interest in it when they do.

And I think that fuels a lot of things like, you know, the popularity of like Coast To coast Am and things and things like my book, you know.

I think that there, people have beliefs, ghosts are a belief system.

And, you know, I do think that, it borders on religion to be honest, 'cause it's all these ideas of the afterlife and where we go, what we do.

And so I think that that kind of interest is never, it never wanes, but right now I think people are so clogged with so many other worries and things that it's just a little wild to me how, some of it's flying under the radar.

- So obviously in your work, you deal with people who have ghosts in their homes or have had ghosts experiences.

But aside from you're work just in sort of everyday life or conversations with people do you find people have ghost stories for lack of or have had a ghost experience not necessarily something you've investigated but, is that a common element?

Do you think, in our culture now?

- Absolutely.

I mean, I meet people who don't even believe in ghosts, but they'll say, but there was this one time and then they'll tell me this really crazy story.

And so, You know, I think that, I think people feel comfortable talking to me about it.

You know, I live in one of the most haunted places in the country, in New England.

And everyone's got a great ghost story here.

And, I love that there is that kind of comfort level when they see me that they know they can confide that in me because not everybody takes it seriously.

But I think I would say a close, by 80% of the population has had some sort of unexplainable moment that they've consider could be ghostly.

But, you know, a lot of them will have it and not explain it away as time goes on that kinda thing.

But like even my daughter's teacher came up to me with a crazy ghost story and the principal of her school, you know, and it's just so funny how people come out of the woodwork and I love it.

- What does popular culture get right about ghosts, and what does it get wrong?

- That's a good one.

I think that, I think that they get, there were some movies where I felt like they were kind of going down the path of like this could very well be what a ghost is.

Like The Others is one of my favorite examples of that with Nicole Kidman.

I don't know if you've seen it but, spoiler alert, basically the people, the family and the movie that you watched, the whole movie, it turns out they're the ghosts.

They're living in their house, and they're wondering what's going on around them, but they are the ghosts.

And, and so I kind of feel like that's something that could actually be the case where they don't realize that they have passed.

But then there's others where they're very terrifying and that they're gonna possess you.

And I think that in popular culture and also in a lot of reality shows, the idea of demonic type hauntings are, a lot more prevalent than they actually are.

Considering I've been at this for 20 years and I've probably seen maybe one or two, very negative type hauntings and all of that.

(chuckles) - So, you mentioned you have a daughter, and she's a young daughter.

What is her take on what you do?

And what's her take on ghosts?

I mean, mom is in the business and so I'm sure it comes up in conversations at home.

- Yes.

- Got about a minute and a half left.

- Okay.

I'd say that, for her right now my job is kind of cool.

I'm waiting until her teenage years when she's to get embarrassed by me.

I still... - It will happen by the way, it's inevitable.

(chuckles) - I just talked to her like, it's a fun thing.

'Cause I feel like if you get too serious about ghosts with kids, it starts to bring up a lot of questions about death and mortality and stuff that they don't need to think about yet.

So I keep it very casual for her and for her right now.

It's like Casper, it's a lot of fun.

She likes to come with me sometimes to work but, it's a novelty for sure.

- Well, in the about 40 seconds that we have left what's next on Kindred Spirits?

- Yeah, so we've moved to Discovery Plus which is a whole streaming platform for all of the discovery channels, which is amazing.

It really opens up our audience.

And so every Saturday, a new episode drops on Discovery Plus, and we've done some really wild cases this season all during a pandemic.

Which.

(chuckles) Was was definitely interesting.

- Well, we will look forward to it.

And Amy Bruni, thank you so much for being with us.

She is Amy Bruni.

The show is Kindred Spirits and the book is "Life With The Afterlife."

You should check it out.

That's all the time we have this week for a story in the Public Square.

But if you wanna know more, you can find us on Facebook and Twitter, or visit pellcenter.org, where you can also catch up on previous episodes for G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes Asking you to join us again next time.

For more a Story in the Public Square.

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