popular culture focuses on recognizing the entertainment world's hits and misses in award season.

Today's guest gives us a well-informed, if fictional glimpse, behind the smiles and glittering ceremonies to understand the personal and professional commitment of actresses at the top of their games.

He's Daniel D'Addario, this week on "Story in the Public Square."

(gentle music) (gentle music continues) (gentle music continues) Hello and welcome to "Story in the Public Square," where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from The Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller, also with Salve's Pell Center.

- And our guest this week is the Chief correspondent for entertainment heavyweight, Variety, Daniel D'Addario, is also the author of a new novel, his first, "The Talent."

He joins us today from New York.

Dan, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thanks for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

- And congratulations too.

The book is a fun and interesting read, and we're gonna talk about that in a little bit.

But I want to start...

Here we are taping at the end of January, Los Angeles and the entertainment industry has really been heavily affected by the horrible fires that have swept across the city and the region.

We're mindful of it and our hearts are with the victims who have suffered so much.

But I wonder if you have some insight about the current state of the entertainment industry and the aftermath and what the fires have meant for it.

- Well, you know, the entertainment industry has been buffeted by a number of forces over the past five years, from COVID shutdowns to the labor dispute that led to last year's writers and actors strikes.

And the motto over the course of the past 12 months had been, "Survive Until 25," which is to say there was some thinking that at the start of this year, productions could really be back in full force in a way they hadn't been since before COVID.

Obviously, there's a ton of consequences to these horrendous and tragic fires.

Among them are that the clock's now been reset and production is disrupted once again at the worst possible time.

- I mean, economically, I mean, these are massive corporations, but I think about the folks who work in the industry, not all of whom are celebrities, many of whom have lost everything as well.

Just your thoughts about what it means for the lived experience of people who work in the industry but aren't gonna be the celebrity names with, you know, the second home somewhere else.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, stipulated, I live in New York, but I have insight into the industry.

- Sure.

- I think that something that gets a bit lost in translation is perhaps when people think L.A. or the entertainment industry, they think of whether it be movie stars or corporate CEOs, but a lot of the places these fires hit, communities like Altadena, are places where people got starter homes or starter homes that became forever homes.

And a lot of these people, people in Los Angeles, like anywhere, work in all kinds of lines of work, but a lot of these people were the folks you don't necessarily think of that are towards the end of the movie credits.

Whether sound guy, caterer, things like that, that make the town run, that make the industry run, and that work gig to gig and maybe don't have that kind of nest egg of a movie star salary or a Bob Iger from Disney salary.

So your heart just really does go out just because these fires were unforgiving and they were cross-cutting.

And a lot of folks got hit, who are not living the L.A. celeb lifestyle by any means.

- So what do you think is gonna happen to these people?

I mean, will they eventually get work back in Hollywood?

Will they have to move?

Will they have to leave the industry?

And again, we're talking, you know, the, quote, unquote, "working class," members of the film industry.

You know, extras, cosmetic people, editors, producers, you know, again, the non A-list talent as it were.

- Well, I think that one thing that's gonna be very important for the city of Los Angeles is really prioritizing, making sure productions can start up once this is resolved.

Because in recent years, there had already been a sort of shift in the center of gravity.

A lot of films we see are made in places with favorable tax incentives like Atlanta or like the United Kingdom.

And so people, individuals who work in the fields you stated, may make the tough choice to move their family to an Atlanta or somewhere like that, where stuff's getting produced.

And so I am hopeful as a lover of the city of Los Angeles and a lover of the movie industry and its history, and someone with a heart for these people who need to work, I'm hopeful that productions can start up in the city of Los Angeles to keep folks where their homes are and where their community is.

- So, I would just like to urge audience members who are in a position to donate to recovery relief efforts to do that.

I mean, I did that, and I think it's very important so that we can help all of these people.

So the fires forced a delay in the announcement nominations for the Oscars.

As we're taping right now, they still have not been announced.

And some people in the industry have called for either cancellation of the Oscars or some revision.

You know, Stephen King, who's a member of the academy because he's directed films obviously, he said, quote, "Not voting in the Oscars this year.

Imho they should cancel them.

No glitz with Los Angeles on fire."

What are your thoughts on canceling, revising, doing something different with this great celebration of the industry that usually occurs?

- Well, it's not lost on me, nor I think should it be lost on anyone, but there's a bit of a taste and a sensitivity issue here, of course.

With that said, I think that what people may not realize, who just think of it as a program for our entertainment or perhaps to boost movies, is that there's a whole economy that award shows underpin.

Everyone who goes to the show gets driven by a limo driver.

It employs bartenders and caterers for the after parties.

Cosmetic artists get people ready.

All of these are jobs that would be lost at the worst possible time.

Now, do I think that there are calibrations in the show that could make it a little more tasteful?

And maybe it doesn't start with the jubilant kick line of dancers, but maybe it starts in a different way?

Yeah, of course.

But I think to outright cancel something that so many working people depend on and that serves as promotion for movies that people put their whole hearts into and a lot of work into, I think that would set a difficult precedent.

I think that would be too bad.

- So, Dan, you, it's actually maybe a great segue into your great new novel, "The Talent," because we get not a look just at the talent, but also at the people around them.

But let's start.

Maybe with just a quick overview, in your words of what the book is and what it's about.

- Absolutely.

And thanks for the compliment.

The book is about five women who are all nominated for best actress in an award ceremony.

And it follows them from before the nominations even come out, as they're starting to promote their movies, going to film festivals, crossing paths, through the night of the awards, by which time rivalries and friendships and old hatreds and new revelations have all taken place between the five of them.

- So we've asked you to do a reading, Dan, and if you wouldn't mind doing that reading now.

- [Daniel] Of course.

- We're eager to have you do it.

- I'd be happy to.

This is from the very beginning, and it's a kind of grand damn actress flagged to a film festival.

"Everyone cries upon descent.

Well, almost everyone.

That was what Adria Benedict's agent had told her about the plunge she would take the Friday before Labor Day as she landed at her destination, a small mountain-town airport whose single runway was carved into the side of one of the Rockies.

Moving safely from the clouds to this perch required a steep angle, a dextrous pilot, and passengers more afraid of missing the film festival than of death upon impact.

Adria had no real complaints about the mechanics of the flight so far.

Indeed, it had been effortless.

Even the car trip out to the airport in Van Nuys.

That journey, familiar enough by now, she tried to bear with grace, lending the driver a smile about which he might tell his wife, assuming she, like most women, had seen Adria's movies.

The supposed fearsomeness of the journey's end had only entered Adria's considerations as a sort of spur for her to do it.

Adria knew she was getting too easy to goad, but there was still a simple desserty pleasure to the conversation she'd had with Howard, her long-suffering agent, about how frightening the flight was, a preemptive sense that this was yet another challenge she would surmount."

- Tremendous, tremendous.

Why did you decide to begin the book with Adria?

Obviously, you're the writer, you can begin anywhere you want with any character, any scene.

You chose this and you chose her.

Why, Dan?

- Yeah.

So as I said, setting it up, and as maybe was clear from that reading, the character of Adria among the five is the one who's like a living legend, who has this outsized reputation, this long history in the industry.

And I thought it would be a good way for people to kind of dip their toes into this world because maybe they would see in her things they recognized about real actresses and her long history gave them a lot of ways in.

It also helps that her chief rival kind of ends the book.

And so I thought it was a nice way to bookend it of having two people who have a lot of history as the people you see as you enter and you leave.

- You know, so I'm going to resist the temptation to ask you to tell us who, if anyone, was the inspiration for any of these characters.

But with Adria in particular, I had somebody very specific in mind.

- [Daniel] Yes.

- And I'm curious, in crafting these characters, how much were plucked from reality and how much were public personas you had seen or people that you actually knew?

- That's a very good question.

And I want to be a little circumspect because I think part of the fun of the book, I hope, for readers will be guessing or wondering or thinking about it.

I will say that a lot of things in the novel are based on my observations of the Oscars, which I've been watching since I was a young child, as well as my own work as a journalist.

People I've interviewed, people I've dealt with in passing.

And I think some of them you might think are pretty one-to-one, but it's in those cases that there's a degree of invention or a degree of flipping it on its head that was fun for me.

Like, in Adria's case, you may think that she's based on one person, I could never possibly comment, but there are elements that are completely invented by me, and that was the fun part.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- Was kind of saying, okay, what we all think we know about a public figure is this, but what she really liked behind the scenes?

And that was what was fun for me.

- And that's definitely some of the fun, as you said, of reading the book, 'cause through all these characters, I'm thinking, "Okay, who might that be?

Who could it be?

Who do I want it to be?"

So let's get into another character.

We're gonna get into, you know, the remaining four.

Jenny, tell us about Jenny in the book.

- So Jenny in the novel is, as I said earlier, she ends the book, and she's Adria's chief rival.

And among the elements of their rivalry is that Adria always wins awards.

You might say she's an awards magnet, and she lives for that.

Jenny has never won anything.

And to me this kind of gets at the randomness of meritocracy and the randomness of life, which is some people are just born winners and some people aren't.

And if you are the person who isn't, it seems unreasonable and it seems unfair.

And I think that there's a real poignancy to Jenny, who, as far as we know, is as talented an actress as anyone, but just has never had that moment when things click.

And as she tries and tries and tries to find it, she grows more awkward and more ungainly in the pursuit, which I think is a very interesting process to watch happen.

- Well, one of the...

I mean, I think that the book tells the story of that pursuit, of the things that people are willing to do to advance their careers, to win awards.

How much politicking, how much of that is real?

How much is going on behind the scenes of the Academy Awards, of the Golden Globes, of those things, where people are truly trying to position themselves to win awards?

- Yeah, I mean, everything you see at the Golden Globes or at another precursor awards or in a magazine interview, I like to say, you see it for a reason.

People in these actors positions are doing things to seem charming and to set up what we might call the narrative of why they deserve it.

And I've seen this a lot up close firsthand as a journalist.

And I think it's really interesting because, you know, politicking is such a dirty word, but at the same time, who doesn't want to be recognized for working really hard?

Who doesn't want to feel as though they're a part of history and that they did a really good job?

So one other thing that I hope my book did was show that, yes, it's the actors who are doing this who are politicking, but also they have entire teams behind them.

They have publicists, they have agents who are helping them craft.

And this is this whole other hidden economy of people who are saying, "Okay, what the message is is this, and you need to stay on message And the dress you wear will communicate that."

It's just this whole language that is intended for an audience of the Oscar voters.

- There's a performance aspect to it too.

- [Daniel] Absolutely.

- [G. Wayne] Right.

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, to me, what I wanted to achieve in this book was get at the way in which even though they're not on a film set, they're absolutely still performing.

- Yeah.

- And who the real person at the core is lies behind all of this work that they're doing.

And some of them are able to separate the work and go home at the end of the day and stay themselves.

And some of them get really lost in it.

- And as a working journalist who's covering the industry, I'm curious sort of like that in the book, you're turning the camera on that experience.

As a working journalist, when you're covering a story or you're interviewing a celebrity, are you mindful of that performance aspect of it?

That you're getting, I don't wanna call it a contrivance, but you're getting what they want you to see?

- Yeah... Just as I say, everything I'm seeing, I'm seeing for a reason.

I think the challenge for someone in my position is trying to find a moment that is real, a moment that is unguarded if you're speaking to someone in this position.

And I feel very happy when I feel I'm able to get that.

Of course, it's impossible to say.

The person I'm speaking to might just be just that good an actor that they into it.

So it's all about trying to find your way beyond the performance.

And sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't.

- So, Dan, so you do the interview, you write the article, it's published.

I'm guessing sometimes you hear from either the actor, actress, or a publicist or an agent, and what you hear might be like, "What the (censored)."

Does that happen?

- It has happened.

I think that the times that things like that happen, it's about stuff I don't expect.

Oftentimes, I'll write something and say, "Oh, you know, her team or his team won't be very happy with that.

But he or she did say it."

I think that there's a lot of sensitivity around things that are beyond a journalist control, like headlines and photos.

And I've gotten angry emails about headlines, which I didn't write, and photos, which I definitely didn't take.

- I've had that experience too as a journalist.

(laughing) - Whereas, I think, there is still a lot of respect, if grudging respect for the body of the piece.

Because if you write something in a respectful way and you don't have things be gotchas, like spring something on someone, then I think there's a level of respect for the piece.

- So let's get into the remaining three major characters.

And Davina.

Am I pronouncing that correct, Davina?

- Yes, absolutely.

- So tell us about Davina.

- So Davina is a woman who has been in a sort of happy obscurity.

She's British and she worked in London as a stage actress and then a TV actress on a crime procedural.

And all of a sudden, she's kind of thrust into this world that she never expected to be in.

And I think the interesting thing this character let me do as a writer was depict how it really turns her head.

Like she always thought she would be totally content as a working non-famous actress.

And then when she kind of, by chance, becomes famous overnight, her priorities in life suddenly dramatically shift because she sees all these doors opening.

And I wanted to show how kind of rapid and frightening and exhilarating something like this could be for a working actor.

- So what about Contessa, who is a former child star?

And, you know, when I was reading and she came into the scenes, I was thinking of Melissa Gilbert from "Little House on the Prairie," actually, who was, you know, one of the great child stars.

And I actually very fond of that series.

But tell us about her.

- So Contessa, she was a working child actress, who kind of was helped along by her very involved mom.

And her mom is still her manager, even though she's reached adulthood.

And it's this kind of quintessential story of trying to make the leap from, "Oh, you were a cute kid and so precocious," to earning respect on your own terms.

And she so desperately wants to be respected as an artist, even though she feels rightly or wrongly that she's still just seen as a kid.

And so in some ways she kind of acts out as a way to kind of define herself as a grownup.

- So the last character is Bitty, who I thought was maybe the most fragile of the characters.

Tell us about Bitty.

- I think that read is totally accurate.

Bitty is someone who's never quite... She's in her late 20s, early 30s, and she's never quite clicked.

She's kind of that classic actress who's, oh, it's her, but she's never quite gotten to stardom.

And she feels very insecure about the way she's seen.

She feels as though she's not good enough, even after getting on accolades for the film she's in.

And her kind of insecurity has many sources, which we learn about through the book, and also kind of manifests in kind of substance use disorder.

And I thought that writing insecurity and fragility was a good way to get at stuff that we all, even actors face, is everyone feels less than sometimes.

And awards race is kind of a perfect place to have someone feeling less than 'cause you're being ranked every day against your competitors.

- So,.

obviously, these five women are fictional, but going into the real world now, where do things stand now in the industry, in the wake of Harvey Weinstein and the MeToo movement?

- Yeah, I think that's a really good question, especially in the world we live in now, where it feels as though certain cultural changes that the MeToo movement, engendered are being now walked back somewhat.

I think that there is a lot of awareness, and I think that awareness sometimes translates into action and sometimes does not.

I think that the interesting thing that the revelations around Weinstein did was that it gave us all a language and an understanding.

For instance, the currently unfolding war of lawsuits between the actress Blake Lively and the director of her most recent film, who are at loggerheads with competing claims.

None of that would've entered public view, I don't think, in a world where Weinstein hadn't fell, well, hadn't fallen, because I think Lively would've assumed, and rightly so, people will so adamantly not be on my side that it's not worth it.

And now I think we all have an understanding, the question, of course, is does understanding become action?

There's still not nearly enough women directors, for instance, giving big chances.

And there's still, you know, monsters out there that you and I don't even know about.

But I think that it was a step forward.

We just have to keep hoping that in the current climate, more steps get taken.

- You know, I wanna come back, sort of I wanna straddle the world that you created in the book and also the world where you work every day.

So some of the other characters that we come along are the people around the talent, the folks who are the publicists and the agents.

And they're not always the heroes, let's say, in these sorts of, in the account that you provide.

I'm curious, you know, do you worry that that could impact your ability to do your day job?

are people not gonna take your call because of the way they their industry and their profession may have been depicted?

- I'll say this much.

I couldn't do my job without the good publicists, who know who they are and who I have really good relationships with.

(G. Wayne and Jim laughing) And who really respect what journalists do.

Absolutely.

I think that what you're referring to is the character of Bitty who is so insecure, has this publicist who fights every battle for her and has basically created an image for Bitty that Bitty just has to live out.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- And anytime a journalist comes to observing that that might not be reality, the publicist becomes her more forceful self.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- I think that I have no concerns about my continued ability to do my job because I think that all the good publicists, who know who they are, will know that I'm not talking about them.

- So speaking of your job, you do more than what we've just been talking about, which is writing a book and chief correspondent.

And you're one of the moderators of Variety's "Actors on Actors" video series, and I watched some of them and they're tremendous.

Tell us about that.

- "Actors on Actors" is one of my absolute favorite parts of this job, and seeing it grow over the past few years has been so exciting.

For those who are not aware, twice a year for the Emmy Awards season and for the Oscar Awards season, we pair up, let's say this year, Nicole Kidman and Zendaya, or Angelina Jolie and Cynthia Erivo from "Wicked."

And they have a conversation.

And it's oftentimes unguarded in a way it couldn't be with a journalist because they feel as though they're having a real conversation with a peer.

And things emerge about acting and life and life in Hollywood and women in Hollywood that you might not get as a journalist.

And the moderator's role is to kind of give them a grounding and just, okay, we, here's some ideas for thought starters for stuff you might wanna discuss, but it's your conversation, it's your day.

And it's very exciting to watch.

And it has trained me out of the habit of being starstruck because you'll be standing in the studio, and the likes of a Kate Winslet will just walk over and get a cup of coffee and head back.

So you have to just keep a very level head about you.

- You love your job.

- I really do.

I feel very fortunate.

I always wanted to write, and I was always fascinated by the world of entertainment, not just movies and television, but how they're made.

And so I feel very fortunate to get to write stories about that and tell, and show people about that.

- Well, you've given all of us some insight into it in "The Talent."

Daniel D'Addario, thank you so much for being with us.

The book is outstanding, but that is all the time we have this week.

If you wanna know more about "Story in the Public Square," you can find us on social media, or visit pellcenter.org, where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G, Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes, asking you to join us again next time for more "Story in the Public Square."

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