- Hollywood has taken heat in recent years for a lack of inclusivity and representation.

But today's guests tell us that the film and television industry is changing.

She's Ida Darvish and he's Josh Gad this week, at Story of the Public Square.

(upbeat music) Hello and welcome to a Story in The Public Square where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

Joining me from his home in Rhode Island is my friend and cohost G. Wayne Miller of the Providence Journal.

Each week we talk about big issues with great guests, authors, journalists, filmmakers and more to make sense of the big stories shaping public life in the United States today.

This week, we're joined by the remarkably talented couple, Ida Darvish and Josh Gad, both tremendously accomplished actors and producers who join us from California.

Ida and Josh, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thanks for having us.

- Our pleasure, we're so excited to chat with you guys.

- There's a lot that we wanna talk to you about, but you know, for our audience who maybe doesn't know a lot about both of you, start a little bit with your backgrounds.

Ida, tell us about your sort of your journeys to Hollywood as it were.

- I drove out to LA as soon as I was done with college.

Literally two days later, which don't ask me why I ended up in Texas for college and that's a whole other story.

And I, you know, hit the pavement.

It was not an easy road by any stretch of the imagination.

My look wasn't the most popular at the time because this was in '97.

So it was like a pretty tough road finding an agent and all of that.

I started to do a lot of theater in LA, which I ended up enjoying immensely.

And it's actually where Josh and I met in 2004.

And I really love theater first and foremost.

I never went to New York because I'm not necessarily a singer but I love live theater and it's my passion.

I then kind of got some things on my own.

I didn't really have an agent submitting me and so I didn't do it the normal route.

You know, I mostly found things on my own through doing readings, through doing a couple of additions here and there and these people would think of me for things.

So that's kind of been my acting road.

When the production and I decided I wanted to have a little more control of my creative life.

And so I decided to get into producing but on the creative producing side, bringing ideas to the table, figuring out how to get them made, how to get the right people involved.

So that's been a really fun and awesome journey.

And I'm working on straddling the two and figuring out how to be able to do both without having a big name as an actor first and then producing.

It's a very interesting balance.

So with this theater down, this quarantine has made me miss going and doing live theater.

- How old were you when you got the theater bug?

Were you at high school, grade school, younger?

- Oh no, I started in grade school.

The theater bug started in grade school.

But coming out to Hollywood, I thought, what, you know, theater wasn't the big scene here.

You know, it was TV and film.

So that's kinda what I thought I was coming out here for.

And then I ended up doing way more theater than anything else here, which I, it is my first love.

So that never was something that I didn't wanna do.

I just wanted to do be able to do both.

- So Josh, you were, you were born in Florida, but your parents have a very fascinating and historically significant background.

And also your grandparents.

Tell us about that because my guess is that that background and hearing stories from them has influenced your career and also your political beliefs and your social justice beliefs.

Tell us about that.

- A fascinating background could easily be referred to as confusing background as well.

(Wayne and Ida laughing) My lineage is one of wonderment.

So, you know, my grandparents were both Holocaust survivors.

My grandfather lived in the luggage ghetto, my grandmother lived similarly in a ghetto in Poland, both were stripped of their lives and what they knew at a very early age.

And despite the generational gap between them and I, and that had a profoundly large influence on me, right?

Comedy equals tragedy plus timing, I believe this is the quote.

And there's a lot of that in my life whether it's my parents getting divorced at a young age, it's sort of the cliche of how one finds comedy along the way.

My mother was born in Germany at the end of the second world war, my grandfather was a Jew born in Afghanistan which is again, just an oxymoron in and of itself.

But you know, all of that didn't for me because it was just, there was a cultural hodgepodge to my background that made me confused as a child.

And through that confusion, I sort of found that a great escape was comedy, was make believe, was this thing we call acting and pretending.

And that drew me in.

In terms of me becoming, you know, socially activated, I would say that that was an organic thing that came out of understanding at a very early age what happened to groups of people who were othered?

What happened to those who didn't necessarily have a loud enough voice to speak up for themselves or those who were forced into a position where they weren't allowed to speak up for themselves?

That felt profoundly important to me.

And the searing image in my mind is my grandparents, you know, at the age of six, recognizing that they were branded on their arms with a tattoo like cattle.

And that image stuck with me.

And that image, I think really really informed the kind of person that I wanted to be to make sure that that never happened to any other group again.

And I think that you know, to speak to why am I so vocal, it's because I understand, I think inherently in my DNA what it means to see people lose everything.

- Wow, that's really powerful.

And Ida, I know you share Josh's beliefs in this regard and we're gonna get to, I think, a little bit later many of the causes that you're active in today including mental health and other causes, but Josh getting back to you, the acting bug hit you early in life?

- Yeah, like you know, I think in grade school is a great gateway drug to, you know, pretending to be other people.

And I was about six years old when I got bit by the bug and I, you know, fell in love with performing at my day school and then parlayed that into a children's theater called the Hollywood Playhouse for the Performing Arts.

I met a couple of people that are still friends, including Randy Rainbow, who's become sort of a brilliant political satirists on Twitter and the like, and my best friend, Seth Gable, who's working actor as well.

So we got the bug early in South Florida and I just knew that I wanted to do it.

Didn't know, you know, I thought I wanted to do it professionally at the time.

And my parents, which specifically my single mother said to me, get an education first, make sure that you get a diploma, don't, you know, lose your innocence, don't lose your childhood, have those experiences.

And I was angry, even when I went to Carnegie Mellon drama, my freshman year, there was a kid named Josh Groban and I called my parents up and I was like, well, this guy's leaving school to go to pursue a career at freshman year, why can't I?

He's also named Josh.

(laughing) And my mum looks like, well, it looks like you got the unlucky of the Josh tickets, but you're staying in school.

And I was so grateful because I needed that time.

I needed that experience in order to fully understand who I was.

- So you got to Broadway pretty soon thereafter or relatively soon thereafter with the Book of Mormon.

Tell us about that.

How did you get that role?

I mean, it became, you know, you were nominated for a Tony and obviously it was launchpad for your career.

(mumbles) - That was, Ida and I had, I sort of came to LA in pursuit of TV and movies.

And ended up doing a black box theater show instead.

And I met Ida.

And at the time I was really bouncing back and forth, I was going back and forth.

And Ida and I played Mr. and Mrs. Trotsky in a play called All in the Timing by David Ives.

And it reminded me of why I fell in love with acting because I had become so disillusioned and I turned to Ida and I said, I wanna go to law school.

And you looked at me and said, I don't wanna be married to a lawyer.

(laughing loudly) And I was like, I'm earning some income.

I wanna like, actually get paid.

I wanna do, and Ida was like, no.

So I ended up staying in LA and one day I auditioned for the show called 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee and I got it.

And right as we were starting to date, all of a sudden I'm pulled to New York and I'm doing this thing and she came back and forth.

And she looked at me at the time and she's like, this is great, let's never do this again.

Please let's never moved back to New York.

And I'm like, okay, okay, I promise.

I get a call one day to start to do workshop of this thing by the South Park guys called Book of Mormon.

At the time, I remember turning to Ida and say, oh, it must be like they're doing like a musical version of South Park.

And I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be Catman.

Like, I don't know what this is.

(laughing) And I listened to it.

And I was like, I played it for Ida and we were both like, the first three songs were so hilarious.

We were like, this is brilliant.

And then it got to a song called Hasa de Eli and we were both like, I can't do this.

The things that they are saying I'll get shot.

(laughing loudly) Yeah, I'll be killed.

And I remember being like, this is like it's one thing to do it in the form of a cartoon, it's another thing to do it in real life.

And we were both just like, well, what's the harm in doing a workshop?

And we did this workshop and I white knuckled it and it went amazing.

And for the next three years we kept refining it.

And then one day I got the call and it's you're going back to Broadway.

Well, Ida was pregnant with Ava, our first.

And suddenly I had to move to New York a month after our baby was born.

And she was incredible because she was just like, all right, let's do this.

And what ended up being, this is the last time I'm doing this before (laughing) became this is truly the last time I am ever doing this.

And so we moved to New York and for a year and a half basically we lived in an 800 square foot apartment.

I did eight shows a week and it did it.

It transformed life.

I mean it was sort of like a catalyst to being able to do the things we do now and be, you know, innovators.

And try to parlay that into something bigger.

At the time, Ida was very mad at me because I turned down Modern Family.

And she was like, are you sure you wanna do that?

This could be that good.

- I actually thought it could be really good.

The pilot had it's problems when I read it, I was like, it's a good role.

It is really a good role.

- It was a great role.

- It gets you out of the box of what you normally do.

So maybe you should do it and then chose back a moment.

- And I choose back a moment.

- And he didn't know what it was gonna be obviously.

- So, but that was very really on.

And, you know, part of what you learn, I think when you're doing this thing is you need a partner to ground you and to help inform your decisions and to push back.

And Ida at a very early stage in my career was like, make sure you're doing everything for the right reason.

Make sure, and it's something you still say.

It's like, there's three brackets that we talk about.

It's like are you doing it... - You have to meet two of the three.

- Right.

- Is it something that's creatively like inspiring for you?

Is it something that will further your career?

And is it something that will bring in money that you want and need?

And the money alone is never good enough as far as I'm concerned.

So it has to be coupled with one of those two things.

So, you know... - And the greatest thing about that is when I've chosen it for one of the three and only one of the three, it's those decisions that I've regretted the most in my career.

- Well, Ida, so that's profoundly wise.

And I think about you as the young college graduate headed off to Hollywood, where does that wisdom come from?

- Well, I don't know if it's wisdom, just, I think life experience.

Maybe it is, you know... - She's got seven years on me.

She's my... (laughing) (mumbling) - I think not getting what I wanted for so long made me think about what I really want and why I want it.

So I think the hard road made me more introspective about what I want in me.

And you know, I was lucky enough, we were lucky enough that his career did take off and provided, you know, an opportunity for me to really look at that and kind of mold my life the way I wanted to mold it as opposed to having to do things for the sake of doing them and all.

- I also think that part of what we tend to look at when we're, and this is really driven by Ida, is like when we're looking at projects is, Ida talks about the fact that she arrived in the 90s.

And at the time that a young woman who wasn't white and blonde or brunette, but half Italian, half Iranian, she didn't have opportunities.

It was like, we need a background terrorist in true lies or like we need, you know, it was that kind of thing.

And it is really, really amazing, albeit really late to see that things like representation are only now starting to matter.

And she opened my eyes up to that because early on there was a lot of frustration with like where are the roles for people who look like me?

Where are the roles for people who aren't necessarily going to be on Melrose place?

Or like, it's like it can't just be all white American women in every single thing.

And as a white guy coming to Hollywood, I didn't see it, I was blind to it.

And that's been a profound eyeopening thing.

And now in everything that we do, it always starts from a place of what voices can we bring into this that don't necessarily have a seat at the table?

How can we broaden opportunities for people who don't necessarily always get an opportunity to tell their stories?

- Yeah, I'm curious to hear you say that Josh, Hollywood as an industry has taken a lot of heat in recent years because of its lack of inclusiveness of representation.

How do you think the industry is doing?

I know it's hard to be a critic of the entire industry, but just unbalanced.

Do you have a sense of, you know, I know what you're trying to do to try to be more representational.

But the industry in general, how do you think it's doing?

- I think here's my fear about the industry and I'm just gonna be very blunt and honest.

I think my fear of the industry is that there's trends, right?

It's trending to do this, it's trending to do that.

And this is a more profound issue than a trend.

And it's a more profound issue than, you know, than we've ever even realized.

I mean, it's hundreds of years of profound.

So I think that it has a long way to go.

And I think that it's interesting, you know, when somebody was telling me a story about how he's trying to fill a writer's room and there's a black man and a white man who are up for the one job.

And they're looking at both of their credentials.

And unfortunately the white man is way more, is just more right for the job.

And it has nothing to do with color of your skin or your background or anything.

So you're faced with all of these situations and who do you hire?

You wanna be fair to everyone.

And it shouldn't be about any of that, it should be about the best person for the job.

And I think that Hollywood has a long way to go on that.

And obviously we know like the award shows and all of that.

I don't think any of them have been fair to people of color or people of different ethnicities.

You know, it's just started to, but you also, I hold my breath because I'm like is this a trendy thing that they're doing?

Is this a whole thing that they're doing?

- It can't be a fickle sort of while we're being inclusive because that's the hot thing right now.

And the one thing that gives me hope is the greatest driver of influence in our industry is hard cash.

And when movies like Black Panther make a billion dollars at the box office, it becomes much harder to make the argument that only a cast filled with white people in front of them behind the camera - Can do well.

- can do well internationally.

And that to me, - that was a huge (mumbles).

- those are game changers.

And you're seeing more and more that it's not becoming the exception, but it's becoming the norm.

And the more it becomes the norm, the more opportunities it presents.

And to Ida's point, it's like, well, you have a white guy and a black writer both up for the same job.

Of course, the white writer's gonna have more credentials because those opportunities haven't necessarily been afforded to the other party.

And so you have to weigh all of those things.

And we have to now give opportunities to people to have the experience, to get better at their craft.

I think that we are in a position, and like-minded people are in positions now where when they're developing stuff, you wanna think about the broader spectrum of voices out there.

Because there's also interesting stories that have never been told because of that very thing.

So that I think is what we find so exciting about this moment.

And as well... - It is exciting.

It is very exciting.

I'm always like, it's exciting.

And I'm like, I don't want it to end that exciting.

You know, I don't want it to be something that's fleeting that excitement, I want it to last.

And I think, you know, the reality is this industry is just a mirror of our society as a whole.

You know, it's like, what are we gonna do really underneath everything to change things systemically.

You know, not just on the surface.

So that's where I think the industry's in the same place.

I think that we all deserve, you know?

- It's not just an industry problem, is it?

It is a much more profound issue that I think affects a lot.

And in many ways I would argue that Hollywood has been very forward thinking in this moment, in this moment, not in the past.

But I think that other vocations and other industries could definitely take a page from what's happening right now.

And to this point, I hope it continues and isn't just a fleeting sort of thing.

- So you talk about change in Hollywood and you're both very vocal in public about change needed in another area, which is understanding and awareness of mental health and mental illness.

And as you guys both know that's been one of my passions for many years.

Talk about that, why that's important to you and the message you get out and maybe start with you Josh because you've been very open about your anxiety.

- [Jim] You've got about 2 1/2 minutes.

- I was paralyzed by anxiety around the time that I was a senior in college.

I started having incredibly difficult anxiety attacks that made me close to a bore phobic.

There was almost a chemical imbalance and when my family would look at me, they couldn't understand why I was behaving so irrationally, why I would suddenly have the outbursts of tears, why I thought I was having a heart attack.

And it's very hard to sort of, you know, describe what that is and have people who aren't going through it understand it.

And I felt very alone.

And medication and therapy saved my life.

And there was an element of shame to it that I didn't realize until much later.

That is all, you know, something that I was projecting on it that doesn't belong there because the truth is there's nothing shameful about tackling those things and being open about them and sharing your experiences so that the next Josh doesn't have to feel alone as a 20 something year old having these, you know, emotions and losing feeling like you're losing control.

So it's been very important for me to share my story and to help others.

- I think as far as mental health goes, what I think is, a huge problem is that people who need it can't afford it most of them.

And I think that, and it shouldn't be that way when you're talking about mental health, it should never be that way.

Cause I've seen people who struggle to get their medication, to get an appointment with a psychiatrist, you know, it's just not fair, it's not okay because that mental health affects our entire society.

Like it's something that should just be something you can go and not have to scrape and try and figure out and not be able to afford.

And just the mental health issue continues and becomes worse and... - That's a great point.

Is that, I do think that the opportunity for medication and therapy is illusive to a lot of people who are struggling.

And that is something that is just in 2021, - Is not okay.

- is unacceptable, it really is.

- That's well said.

That's a powerful point for us to leave it on.

Ida Darvish and Josh Gad, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us.

That's all the time we have this week for Story in the Public Square.

But if you wanna know more, you can find us on Facebook and Twitter or visit pellcenter.org.

We can always catch up on previous episodes.

For Wayne, I'm Jim, asking you to join us again next time for more Story in the Public Square (upbeat music)