- 250 years ago, patriots gathered in Philadelphia declared America's independence from England.

Today's guests explore the celebrations that have followed every 50 years since, revealing the enduring challenges and promise of the American republic.

They are David McKean and M. Todd Bennett, this week on "Story in the Public Square."

(bright music) (bright music continues) Hello and welcome to "Story in the Public Square," where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from The Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

And joining me this week are two authors.

David McKean is the former US ambassador to Luxembourg and was director of policy planning at the US State Department.

And M. Todd Bennett is a professor of history at East Carolina University and was formerly a historian at the US Department of State.

Together, they have authored a tremendous and timely newly book: "The Flag Was Still There: A History of the American Experiment in Five Anniversaries."

Gentleman, welcome to the show.

- Thanks, Jim.

It is- - Nice to be with you.

- The book- - Thanks for having us.

- Thrilled to have you, and the book is really tremendous, and as I said, a timely contribution to this 250th anniversary year of the Declaration of Independence.

David, do you wanna begin with just a quick overview of what the book itself is?

- Sure.

So we really look at the what are called jubilees, and those are the 50-year celebrations in this country.

So after 1776, the first one was 1826, then 1876, 1926, 1976, and obviously, now we're at the 250th.

And so these are really sorta seminal moments in our history, and you know, I view them, and I think and Todd as well, we view them as really sort of snapshots of our democracy during those years.

It was a time for people to and is a time for people to really sort of think about, you know, what our country is and what it stands for.

- So Todd, has that what America is, has that changed over those, you know, every time you dip into that episode, whether it's 1826 or 1876 or 1926?

Does that meaning of the July 4th holiday change over those intervening years?

- Yeah, I think it's a mix of both change and stability.

Many of the things are similar, but you know, for instance, traditions change over time.

And they've evolved, for example.

So we no longer for the most part kinda fire cannons into the air to celebrate July 4th.

Instead, we shoot fireworks, for example, but it's still based on the same tradition.

But you know, the definition of what is an American absolutely has changed in many ways.

The expansion of unalienable rights as expressed in the Declaration of Independence, that has been vastly different now than it was in 1776.

But there's also been struggle over time on precisely that question: Who are we as an American?

Who is an American and who is not?

And what are our goals moving forward?

That's part of the tension of the American experiment, right, that gap between the ideals as expressed in the Declaration and our inability to this point as a nation to meet those ideals.

- Yeah, so David, this is the 250th anniversary year of the Declaration.

What are we celebrating in 2026?

What does that holiday mean for us now?

- Well, you know, look.

I think it means, picking up on what Todd said, I think that is one of the things that it actually, for many, many Americans, it means the same things that it has in previous celebrations.

I mean, we are really celebrating the words of the Declaration of Independence, which are aspirational.

But it's all men are created equal, and it's life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And people have, you know, obviously, in this country, we're quite divided now politically.

But I do think that everybody has that, you know, those aspirations in mind, has some view of what that means to them, and hopefully what it means to the country.

And you know, I think what we hope in this book is that by giving people sort of a lens on the past, that it may provide a bridge for people to think about the future and to bring people maybe a little bit closer together when you see, you know, what it is that we've gone through over the last 250 years.

- Staying with you for just a second.

I mentioned this when we were talking about the book prior, but the idea that America has sort of been just a linear history of progress towards this moment that we're in now sort of belies all of the trials, tribulations, and challenges that the republic has faced over 250 years.

Why, though, has the American experiment endured?

Why are we still celebrating this 250 years later?

The French are on their fifth republic.

You know, that experiment with republican government is as old as ours almost.

Why has the American experiment endured?

- Well, it's a great question.

But again, I think it's, you know, it's part of sorta the strength of the Declaration of Independence that it is this aspirational document and that we have the ability to improve.

One of the people that we talk about in the book, you know, not extensively, but briefly, is a woman named Fanny Wright in 1826, and she makes that exact point.

That the great thing about the United States is that it always has the ability to improve.

Now, that doesn't mean that we always do things better.

As you just mentioned, I mean, I think it has not been a linear trajectory.

There have been times when we've taken, you know, one step forward and two steps backward in my view.

But we have that, we always have that ability to do better.

And that's something that not every country has, particularly those that have, you know, that are ruled by monarchs or despots.

But in a democracy, where new leaders are allowed to come forward, we do have that ability.

- You know, Todd, the history that you recount is full of examples of certain populations who were not able to celebrate the same rights as white, male property owners in 1776: women, Indigenous, Africans, Blacks and enslaved Americans.

When you think about that history, can we still feel good about that long 250-year trek to today?

Or do those early sins, those original sins as some have called them, still, you know, put a blight on our ability to celebrate that history?

- Yeah, I think that's a really great question.

I mean, what to just kind of restate the question is: In 2026, is this a moment for celebration or not?

- Right.

- And that's a superb question, especially, as David pointed out, this is a time when all the polls show that we're a country not just divided, but Americans have doubts about the country's future.

And that's something that I think Republicans and Democrats can all agree on to some extent or another, maybe the one thing we can agree on.

But I think that's precisely the question.

Is 2026, the 250th anniversary, a moment of celebration or not?

On the one hand, yeah, absolutely.

We survived for 250 years, and that's a moment for celebration for sure.

But also with the realization that we haven't yet achieved those ideals as laid out in the Declaration, and that's really what gives the American experiment its dynamism, I think.

And to come back to your previous question, "What's held the nation together?"

At some level, it may well be that, those ideals established from the beginning have kind of bequeathed to each generation a desire to kind of achieve those goals.

Haven't met them yet, but that's one of the things that gives the American experiment some energy and ongoing.

So is it a moment of celebration?

No, not necessarily, maybe a moment of reflection, but I would argue just in closing that that's what makes the jubilee anniversaries, concluding with the 250th here, that important.

Because it's these are anniversaries, not just moments of reflection, but historically, each generation of Americans at the 50-year jubilees have not just reflected, but asked where we are, and most important, where are we going moving forward?

Do we need to adjust course?

And that's why I think the anniversaries aren't just important in a pro forma way.

They're important moments for us to reflect and look forward.

- Yeah, David, you made a conscious decision in this book to trace the history and the position of those dispossessed, underrepresented populations in American history.

Why was that important for this particular book?

- Well, because again, I think it's at the heart of, you know, at the heart of the Declaration of Independence.

And you know, there's this wonderful letter that Abigail Adams writes to John Adams.

Now, John Adams is, you know, is really, with Thomas Jefferson, they were the two men who were in many ways the most responsible for seeing that the Declaration of Independence is actually passed in the Second Continental Congress.

But Abigail Adams, John Adams' wife, writes hims and says, "Remember the ladies," that, (laughing) you know, he sees she is saying that women play a huge part in society.

They played a part in the Revolutionary War.

They are economic drivers.

She recognized all of this in 1776.

But look, it took until 19, you know, 1910 before women had the right to vote with the Nineteenth Amendment.

So it took over, you know, 100 years.

And that was a period of struggle.

And that is true with Indigenous Americans.

It's true with African Americans.

And but it is part again of sorta this fabric of American society, and they are all Americans.

And you know, the question is: How do we move forward as a country that is as diverse as we really are and achieve, you know, a sense a harmony and achieve those ideals that are set forth in the Declaration of Independence?

So I think it's very important that we talk about all the different groups in this country.

- Yeah, those ideals that you talk about, they're the basis for civic nationalism.

It's the stuff that Frederick Douglass talks about before the Civil War.

It's what Lincoln talks about at Gettysburg.

It's what MLK is talking about on the Mall.

It's frankly a lot of what Barack Obama talked about in his presidency as well.

I guess, we'll start with Todd.

I'm gonna ask you both the same question.

But Todd, does that civic nationalism, in your estimation, still appeal to Americans today?

Does it still resonate?

- Well, I would certainly hope so.

I think that's our best chance kinda moving forward.

And you're absolutely right.

I think that the book at some level speaks to that very question.

You know, as you well know, scholars, historians have argued there's various different definitions of what Americanism is.

There is the ethnoracial definition of Americanism, but I think what we focus on in the book is that very issue of civic nationalism.

What does it mean to be an American?

A fundamental belief and some basic ideas, irrespective of race or gender or ethnicity, it's a collection of ideas.

United States is not the only country in the world founded on an idea, but they're very, very important.

And so do Americans still believe in that?

I don't know that that's as true as much now in 2026 as it was in the past.

There's so many challenges.

But I would hope that that's the case.

And as David mentioned earlier, that framework, that kind of ideological framework is so important in kinda creating the system for progress over time, as imperfect as it might be.

- David, you know, I've always admired your keen insights into American national politics.

Where do you think?

Does that civic nationalism still resonate with Americans today?

- Well, I think it's under siege.

I think it's threatened somewhat.

But you know, like Todd, I hope it exists.

I think it has to be, you know, I think leadership is incredibly important in terms of making certain that people do feel a sense of civic nationalism.

And so that is something that we need to, you know, I would hope that Americans will (laughing) actually, that's one of the things I hope they reflect on during this period, during the 250th, is to look around, you know, to look around at their towns, at their cities, at their schools, at their churches, and think about what it means to share the same values, the same fundamental values that, you know, really all Americans do share.

And how do we move forward and how do we improve?

How can we get better as a country?

You know, and I think it's, it's an overused term, but I think it's an inflection point.

- Yeah, well.

One of the things that remains consistent, at least across, you know, my lifetime, is that the way we celebrate July 4th.

Might be family barbecue, might be community fireworks display.

Todd, how does that compare with the way Americans celebrated the holiday over the last 250 years?

- That's a great question.

Yeah, I think it's definitely changed over time.

And just looking at the 20th century, you know, scholars would argue that, in some ways, July 4th has definitely changed.

That in the early 20th century, it was largely a public festival where people took to the public square and paraded and even marched for rights and protested in lots of ways.

But after World War II, scholars talk about kind of a retreat into private space and refer to July 4th as, as you pointed out, Jim, the emergence of a backyard holiday tradition.

- Yeah.

- You celebrate with friends and family in the privacy of your own home with hot dogs and barbecue and cold drinks, right?

And so in some ways, I think that what has happened in the second half of the 20th century anyway was a retreat from the public square into private space.

And I think in some way something is lost there, that you kind of lose that public sharing that's really important, that cohesiveness that can come from rubbing elbows on the streetcar on the way to the public festival, right?

So I think it has changed.

But I think that David and I, you know, I don't wanna speak for David, but I feel like we both draw some hope from the idea that Americans will come together despite all of our differences in 2026, which are vast in many ways.

That we'll continue to do what we've always done, which is to congregate on July 4th and celebrate.

- I mean, it evokes, though, that diagnosis in my mind evokes the work of Robert Putnam in "Bowling Alone" and this idea that we're retreating from the public spaces and community engagements in a way that's ultimately not healthy for a democratic republic like ours.

That might just be more of an observation.

If you've got something to add to that.

- Well, yeah, I do think that's a great observation.

That was a name that was kind of in the back of my head while I was talking.

(Jim laughing) And I think that's a takeaway from the book that we hope to leave, anyway, is that the democratic institutions remain, not just on their own energy.

It takes people to, David used the term leadership, and I think that's really key, both people great and small.

I think that Gerald Ford's leadership, the moderate Republican in 1976 was really key in putting the nation back together again through Bicentennial activities that weren't partisan.

They weren't political affairs.

And it's important.

Leadership is important, but leadership at the ground level too.

And I think leaning in to the American experiment, which I still think, at least hopeful, that can continue and continue to create a situation of progress moving forward.

- David, I'm curious your thoughts about plans for the national celebration of this 250th, but more in the terms of how does that compare with the way the country has marked the other jubilee years over the last 250 years.

- Sure, it's a good question.

And it's changed a lot, Jim, you know?

In 1826, after 50 years of, actually, 50 years of being separate from Britain and only less, you know, a few years less than that of being an actual country, there wasn't any real national celebration.

They were city celebrations and town celebrations and people came together.

But there was no national celebration per se.

That changed dramatically in 1876.

And there was a huge, essentially a huge World's Fair in Philadelphia.

We were a country of 40 million people, and something like 10 million people came to this fair.

It's just, it's incredible to think about it.

And there were exhibits from, you know, dozens of different countries and huge, huge exhibit halls where the newest innovations were all being displayed.

So it was an extraordinary event.

We had something similar but not quite as successful in 1926, again in Philadelphia.

And then, of course, Todd has talked about 1976.

So (laughing) 2026, you know, what I will say is we got the contract for this book before the current president was inaugurated.

So we didn't really know what was gonna happen in 2026.

And to be honest with you, it has been and it was, we had to turn this book in, you know, the end of last year, it was a little bit of a challenge to sort of figure out what was gonna happen and it still is, (laughing) I think.

(Jim laughing) It's changing pretty much every week.

But this is gonna be, you know, as both of you have said, this is gonna be a time for people to get together in backyards.

There are also gonna clearly gonna be a lot of national celebrations as well.

And in all the cities that you would imagine.

Washington, D.C.

will have, I think, an extraordinary series of events, but Philadelphia will be celebrating, and my former hometown of Boston always has a wonderful, you know, wonderful outpouring of public support for, you know, a concert and for the tall ships and that sorta thing in 1976.

So I'm sure there'll be something similar.

- Very similar.

I'm planning to be a part of it this year.

David, I wanna stay with you for a question.

So describing the United States in 1926 at the Sesquicentennial, you and Todd wrote, and I'm quoting here, "Old immigrants- English, Scottish, Dutch, German, Irish, those who had long inhabited the land- were fully American, so long as they were Protestant.

New immigrants, tens of millions of whom had poured into the United States since 1880, mostly from southern and eastern Europe, were not.

Jews and Catholics, not to mention Blacks, were excluded.

Any attempt to include them in the body politic amounted to treason."

I read that paragraph and thought a lot about this moment and the sentiment towards immigration and immigrants in the United States today.

Is this just an enduring feature of American politics that newcomers are always gonna be chased out?

- Well, you know, I think we've seen it over the course of 250 years, not just in 1926, but we've seen it, you know, dating back again to the 18th century.

You know, there was, I'm descended from Ulster Scots who escaped Scotland in the 18th century to go to Northern Ireland, and then they left Northern Ireland because they were still being persecuted and they came to America.

But the next wave of Irish that came in, you know, were also persecuted in the middle of the 19th century.

And so, yeah, I do think, I think it's something that is enduring, unfortunately.

And you know, again, one of the things that we sort of point out in this book is the huge contributions that actually every group ultimately makes to this country.

And so that, you know, we hope that, again, by understanding a little bit of the past and what this country has endured, that it'll make the future a little bit brighter.

- Todd, so in 1926 at the Sesquicentennial, President Calvin Coolidge described the Declaration of Independence with these words: "It is a declaration, not of material, but of spiritual conceptions."

What do you think he meant?

- Yeah, it's a great question.

And I think just to kinda backtrack a little bit, David and I were both struck, and I think readers will be struck, by the way in which history rhymes.

It doesn't repeat exactly, but it rhymes.

And Jim, to your point, I think that we were both struck and surprised by the extent to which 1926 really rhymes with many of the themes today.

And so Coolidge is an interesting person.

I think we enjoyed writing about Coolidge in many ways.

President in 1926, accidental.

His predecessor, Harding, had died in office.

Coolidge is reading, this was from a July 4th speech that he had given in 1926 at the Sesquicentennial, Coolidge.

Coolidge's interpretation of the Declaration was one that maybe rhymes with today.

It was a nationalist reading of the American, of the Declaration of Independence.

He rejected the idea that its foundations were to be found in the origins of kinda European thinkers.

No, he believed that it sprang from the thoughts of American clergymen, directly into Thomas Jefferson's ear.

And so it was a product not of kind of multinational, European influence, but an American product and one that had profound religious overtones.

And so because it was a spiritual document, he regarded, not just an American one, but one from American ministers and it was godly, and therefore, couldn't be changed.

And so it was part of a larger kinda limited government approach that he had that if it was unchangeable, that those traditions had been handed down, then there was no further point to try to achieve those goals, that future effort to reform was unnecessary.

So part of a larger limited government approach that Coolidge had.

Interesting figure in '26 for sure.

- It's fascinating.

David, you've been an American diplomat serving overseas.

I'm wondering, do the ideals in the Declaration resonate beyond American's shores?

- Absolutely, you know?

I think, unfortunately, I think, you know, somewhat less (laughing) than they used to, but I believe very strongly that they resonate profoundly abroad.

You know, I lived in southern Africa for a while, and I was there during the heart of apartheid.

And I can tell you that the Declaration of Independence, you know, it actually was, in the end, when Mandela and de Klerk actually had their detente and the new constitution was created in South Africa, they looked very closely at the Declaration of Independence and at our Constitution.

So and there were a number of countries that have benefited from it and have viewed it really as a very important touchstone for their future.

- Todd, we've got about a minute and a half left here.

What do you hope readers will take from "The Flag Was Still There?"

- Hope and resilience.

That's my takeaway.

I think our study shows that the United States has faced many challenges, as David mentioned, at these 50-year intervals oftentimes.

1876, for example, Reconstruction ends without African Americans being included in the body politic on a full and equal basis, just one example.

1976, there were different examples, different challenges.

But at each stage, the United States endured, imperfect, for sure.

And I think that's my takeaway is knowledge that the United States has struggled before.

The challenges in 2026 are different, but our American story is one of resilience and perseverance over time.

- David, same question, about 45 seconds.

What do you hope readers take away from the book?

- Well, I mean, I think Todd and I are very much on the same page in that regard.

The only thing I would add is that, you know, we have to work at it.

(laughing) We've gotta work at it hard.

Because there are things in this country that matter and that if we don't pay attention to them, if we don't guard them, if we don't work at them, we will lose them.

And I'm talking, you know, I mean the rule of law, for example, something that's incredibly important.

What we've talked about this entire, you know, half hour, Jim, civic engagement, sort of respect for others.

That's something that each individual has to sort of think about and how they deal with their neighbors.

So those kinds of things are hugely important.

But you know, the best I can do is to quote, you know, Ken Burns, who recently, with his great documentary, "The American Revolution," he said, "Look, I'm very worried about the immediate future, but in the long run, I'm hugely optimistic."

And I feel the same way about this country.

I'm hugely optimistic about it.

- That's a great place for us to leave it.

David McKean and Todd Bennett, the book is "The Flag Was Still There," incredibly timely and important read.

That's all the time we have this week, but if you wanna know more about "Story in the Public Square," you can find us on social media or visit salve.edu/pellcenter, where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

And I wanna thank you for spending some of your time with us this week too.

I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join me again next time for more "Story in the Public Square."

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