y forms.

But today's guest uses her art poetry to remind us that whether the tyrant is personal, societal or political resistance is possible.

She's Leah Umansky this week on Story in the Public Square.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) Hello and welcome to a Story in the Public Square where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller, also with Salves Pell Center.

- Joining us in the studio this week is Leah Umansky, an accomplished author and poet whose most recent collection is titled "Of Tyrant."

Leah, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- So, you know, congratulations on the poems.

We're gonna talk about the collection in a moment, but your publisher describes the book or the collection as exploring what it means to live in America today, a country at war within itself, politically, spiritually, and psychologically.

It has some answers to that.

It also offers some hope.

Tell us, why did you write this collection of poems?

- The collection needed to be written, and it was the kind of thing that just poured out of me, and it was cathartic.

It started off with the title poem "Of Tyrants," and from there many other tyrant poems just kept coming.

And the first poem, I think I wrote in around 2014, 2015.

And then the last poem was actually written this past fall in October, November.

And so for me, I was just so disgusted with the way our society was going, the way the government was going, the way the world is at well now, and also then.

And it was really the only way I could actually cope with what I was seeing in the news, what I was seeing on social media, what all my friends and my family were talking about.

And so for me, it was just something that I couldn't really stop.

- So when you're writing something like this, is it with the idea that these works are all gonna be assembled in the collection, was the idea of the tyrant present from the beginning?

Or is it over time you said, "Oh, actually I think there's something here.

Let me explore that a little bit more deeply."

- Yeah, that's a really good question.

It started off, like I said, with the Tyrant.

The first poem I wrote was really inspired by kind of what happened around the primaries and the debates back in 2016.

And I wrote that title poem of Tyrants.

And then I started finding more moments where tyranny kind of prevailed.

And I was writing more poems and more poems.

But the actual phrase of tyrant comes from the Federalist papers.

And I'm a high school/middle school English teacher, and I was tutoring a kid in history who was reading the Federalist Papers, which I don't know a lot about.

But in reading with him and highlighting and, you know, annotating with him, I came across this phrase of tyrant and I was like, "Ooh, that's such a great phrase."

And I knew right then and there, that was the title of the book.

- Well, so let me ask this question before we move actually into the poems themselves, because I was thinking about the meaning of tyranny as I was reading this book, as reading the poems.

- Yeah.

- What does tyranny mean to you?

- To me it's about an abuse of power, which is really, you know, the definition.

But I think it's really about an abuse of power, and it's about injustice and it's about hatred, and it's about the opposite of what you were saying before, the opposite of hope, the opposite of love.

It's about really not caring, not being empathetic.

- So obviously all of these themes have dominated the news for quite some time certainly during the time you were writing your poems here, was the cathartic write, the actual act of writing, knowing that, you know, in the background, and not even in the background, but on the news, in the newspapers, the front page of the New York Times or whatever you read, all this stuff is happening.

Was it cathartic?

Did it help you get through?

- A hundred billion percent?

(both laughing) - So that's a maybe.

(both laughing) - Yeah, I really think I would've fallen into some kind of state of despair.

You know, it was like, I mean, as anyone listening or watching knows, you couldn't avoid the ways that tyranny was in infiltrating our society.

And so I was writing these poems about the Tyrant.

And to answer your previous question, there's many different tyrants in the book, and I think in real life there's many different tyrants.

There's tyrants at your job.

No one here, there's tyrants... - Thank you.

- In your home, there's tyrants, you know, in your personal life, maybe a partner or a spouse, maybe even a friend.

So there's many different versions of tyranny that exist all around us.

But for me, it was cathartic.

It was also really one of the most dominating topics I had in therapy was like, "How am I gonna cope with the way this world is going, especially being a woman."

You know, it was really, it still is, unfortunately.

- I'm fascinated though, to hear you say that though, because as I read this and I mentioned this to Wayne, that I started reading some of the poems and I was thinking that the Tyrant was a significant other, right?

Someone, a personal relationship.

But there's a moment where I thought, "Oh no, this is about something that's sort of public."

Was that ambiguity intentional?

- Absolutely, yeah.

And you totally nailed the, what is it?

The head of the nail, the top of the nail.

Yeah, I mean, there are many poems that are about the tyrant out large, which is mostly political and context.

And then there's many poems about the tyrant in the more private sphere, right?

Like a partner or like a friend, like I said before.

But yeah, it was totally intentional to kind of have these different layers of tyranny, because that's just real life.

- Yeah.

So, we we're gonna have you read three excerpts from the collection which will give a real flavor for what we're talking about here, what you've written.

Let's start with an excerpt from "Rise and Fall of the Tyrant" that you've kindly agreed to read.

- Absolutely, yeah.

"Rise and fall of the Tyrant" One.

There's so many tyrants around us where the heartache is the treachery, the fragility, the suggesting, the activating.

We hallucinate, we house our anger, we sting the teeming, but obsession overcomes us like raw flesh, it burns, vibrates, hums all desire, nerves away, all kindness, perishes, the tyrants is everywhere.

And one must consider the price of freedom.

The tyrant is at your job.

The tyrant follows you home.

The tyrant is in your grief.

The tyrant is in your longing.

The tyrant is in your sick.

The tyrant is in your heart.

The tyrant is on your train.

The tyrant is beneath your earnesty.

The tyrant is in your breath.

The tyrant is in this poem.

- Break that down for us.

That's so powerful.

- Thank you.

This is one of my favorite poems in the book, and it's written in sections.

I think you really hear the fear in the poem, especially when you hear it out loud and all the repetitions of the tyrant.

It's all very kind of hammering.

And in a lot of the poems, I did that on purpose to kind of really have that intensity and that fierceness, it goes back to what you were saying before, Jim, that the poem really has a lot to do with the idea that the tyrant is all around you.

Even in the good moments, even in the bad moments, the tyrant's always there.

There's always, it's like a pebble underneath your foot.

- [Jim] Even in this poem.

- Even in this poem, exactly.

- You know, it evokes, I don't, I wanna say hopelessness, But this poem in particular struck me as being, there's that scene in one of those movies, one of those disaster movies where the 200 foot tidal wave was breaking on the beach and there's a little person standing.

- [Leah] Yeah.

- That's kind of what the feeling of that evoked for me.

- [Leah] Good.

- So that answers my question.

- Yeah, it's terrifying.

- Yeah.

- It is yeah.

- But it really is.

I mean, even today in our world, right?

You turn on the news and it's just, oh, horrific, it's startling.

I'm glad it did that for you.

- So, you know, so we've had poem poets on before, and I always sort of wonder though, when we ask a poet, "Would you explain the poem to us?"

Is that off-putting?

Because you've told us what you wanted to tell us in the poem.

- Right?

No, I love it.

I mean, I think I can't answer for all poets.

I think with every poet it's different.

And because I'm also a middle school/high school teacher, I teach poems all the time.

And so when it's your own poem, I think it's a really beautiful thing to do because you're just informing people.

And poetry is often very stigmatized and very kind of, you know, people are afraid of it.

So if I could give more insight and make something more open to people, that's like my favorite thing about being a poet.

So I'm happy to do that.

- You said something very interesting.

Hearing it read, hearing it out loud is different than reading it.

You know, we talked before the show, what we have you read.

- [Leah] Yeah.

- And obviously I'd only ever read, not heard, but hearing you read it was a very different experience.

- It was a dynamism.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Thank you.

- A deeper experience.

So I think with that in mind, would like you to read another excerpt, and this is from "God is God and the Universe is the Universe."

And again, just a marvelous piece of writing.

- Thank you.

And maybe I will see through the darkness, and maybe I will come before the remembering and see the truth.

And maybe I will imagine the very heart of this moment and not feel pain.

And maybe I'll make a case for jealousy that it was mine all this time.

And maybe I will see my limitations as a mirror in search for a face.

And maybe I will recognize the swallowing of strength.

And maybe I will have intentions I didn't know I had.

And maybe I will search the model I hold for splinters and cracks.

And maybe my predictions were wrong and maybe my patients didn't then.

And maybe I will have had enough and maybe I will erase what has plagued me, and maybe the reckoning will be deafening.

And maybe I will rise up and see with these eyes that want and these eyes that hold, and these eyes that carry, and these eyes that cast and these eyes that glare.

And maybe I will see with these eyes that this country is good, that people are good that people are mostly good that I knew the whole time that I was good.

- Wow.

Wow.

- Thank you - Again, what are you conveying here?

I think it's pretty obvious, but just give us a little insight.

- Yeah.

So this is a poem that uses Anaphora which is the repetition of a phrase, like several words in the beginning, or usually the middle or the end of a line.

It's the idea that we're all sort of struggling together, right?

And that those of us that are pining for the good will prevail.

And that sometimes it's hard to see the goodness in others and the goodness in the world, like I said when I wrote this poem.

But also even today now.

- You know, so one of the things that I love about poems is that I get to experience it right in my own moment.

And as I read the entirety of that poem 'cause that was just an excerpt.

I dropped the end maybes.

And I read it to myself as just sort of expressive declarative statements.

- [Leah] Right.

- It changed the meaning in subtle ways, but I think it reinforced what you were doing.

And so, what was the phrase that you used to describe what that... - Oh, it's called an Anaphora.

- An Anaphora.

- An Anaphora, yeah, it's a poetic device.

- And you hear that in speeches that politicians give.

- Absolutely.

- They use that sort of that flare.

You said something earlier that I found fascinating.

You said that people are afraid of poetry.

- They sure are.

- Why do you think that is?

- Probably because of education, right?

(both laughing) And the way back in the day, the poetry was taught, you know, and you traditionally were taught many of the older, you know, poets, which I was taught in school as well.

But I fell in love with that stuff because my 10th grade teacher, Mr. Collier, changed my entire life.

So it really depends on your teacher as well.

- Yeah, it sure does.

- But I think kids are afraid of poetry.

They think it's hard, they think they're not gonna relate to it.

They don't get it, it's hard to understand or complicated that you have to know like exactly what it means.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- But what I love about poetry is the opposite.

It's kind of what both of you are picking up on.

It's the feeling, it's the emotion, - There's gotta be a joy though when you're teaching a student and they have that moment where they connect with... - Oh, it's beautiful.

- The passage.

- Yeah, it's the best.

- And you do a lot of reading.

So you must get that reaction from your audience when you're reading.

I mean, what do they say afterwards?

Do they come up and go wow.

- Oh, all sorts of things.

Thank you, yeah, all sorts of things, it's really beautiful.

I mean, sometimes I could be moved to tears and other times, you know, you're just really humbled.

- Do you... - Go ahead.

- Do you ever have people who have never been to a reading who came to your... - Oh, absolutely.

- To a reading first time for a reading.

- Absolutely, yeah.

Adults and children, yeah.

- Is that eyeopening for them?

Is it joyous or does it vary?

- Both, yeah, it's eyeopening.

I think it's also joyous.

I think it's kind of like anything else you do for the first time, right?

It's like, "Oh, wow like I didn't know what it was like to sit somewhere and listen to someone read to me."

- [Jim] Yeah.

- I mean, even my own my own parents, right?

Like, they hadn't been to readings.

And then when I started doing readings, they were like, "Wow."

You know, it's a whole new experience that, yeah.

- So when you're, you know, imagining the poet, you know toiling away at their craft, right?

You know, strips of paper and pencil erasing.

And when you are writing a poem, is the voice in your head that this is what I'm gonna do at a reading?

Or is it that this is something that's gonna be consumed like I did last night quietly at my kitchen table?

Like what's the voice that you're imagining when you write the poem?

- Hmm.

- Or are you even that?

- Yeah, that's a good question.

I don't even know if it's even that, yeah.

I think when I sit down to write a poem, I'm writing for myself.

It's like what you were saying before about being cathartic.

I think, and again, I can't speak for all poets.

I'm always writing for myself as the poem on the page.

And so I think I'm hearing my voice in my head.

So there is definitely sound involved, but I'm definitely not thinking about an audience until you actually read it, like, out loud somewhere.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So talk about your writing process.

I'm a writer too, as you know.

And a lot of the writing I do, this is gonna sound kinda weird.

- [Jim] Won't be the first time.

- Is in my head before I actually sit down in front of a keyboard or make notes or whatever.

You know, often if I'm taking a nap, I don't really nap.

I'm thinking about currently the novel I'm working on.

Is that true for you two?

Do you hear or I don't know what the right word is, pre-write, I guess is right word.

Yeah, pre-write.

- Yeah.

Is that true with you two or?

- So when I sit down to write and it's, I'm always kind of embarrassed to say this because people think that, like, I write in notebooks and I'm jotting things down all the time.

But I've kind of moved away from that as we've gotten deeper into the 21st century.

I text myself notes all the time, so I could be like, on the subway and I see something and I'm like, oh and I text it, or... - [Wayne] I do that too.

- Yeah, absolutely.

And it's just pains me that it's so technology driven now.

- But it's easy.

- It is easy.

And I'm also a really fast typist.

So, or it could be like, I'm at a museum and I write something down.

So for me, there's always like a note that's in my phone.

And then when I sit down on my computer to write, it just kinda comes to me.

- [Jim] Okay.

- So I don't really have the whole poem in my head, but there's a spark.

- Yeah, so you mentioned Mr. Collier.

- Yes.

- So I come from a family of teachers.

My wife's an educator.

I wanna talk a little bit more about him, but particularly, so he sparked your love of poetry.

- [Leah] 100%.

- Who sparked your love of writing poetry?

- Oh, he did that as well.

- He did that as well.

Do you remember the moment?

- Yeah, I'm getting emotional even talking about him, but I could talk about him all day.

I had him in 10th grade for English, and he also was the advisor for Genesis, which was our school magazine.

And I'm also the advisor for...

I've been in his footsteps, my whole teaching career.

I remember I wrote a poem, I couldn't tell you what poem specifically, but I'm sure I have it at home.

And he wrote on it in his green pen, which he always wrote on submit this to the magazine.

And that just, I'm like, "Okay."

And then I had my first poem published.

- Just that little push.

- Yep.

- I think a lot of people have that moment with a high school teacher.

I had a... - [Jim] If you're lucky.

- If you're lucky.

- [Leah] If you're lucky.

And I was lucky.

- [Jim] Freshman year in high school, I had a teacher like that.

- [Leah] Yep.

- He recently passed but it was profound.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- I mean, it, you know, I was always interested in writing and done a little writing, but this was like, there was not one moment, but the entire year.

- Yep.

- So I wanna talk about another talent you have, which is designing covers.

You designed this cover and you designed that cover.

- I did.

- Talk, about that cover.

- Let's say "Of Tyrant," let's be precise.

- Thank you.

Yeah so I make collages, and it started out as something I did for holiday cards.

And then when my first book came out, "Domestic Uncertainties," I made that cover and the press enjoyed it.

And so that became the cover.

For this cover, the original image wasn't red, we put a tint over it.

I think it was different.

It came mostly out of newspapers and magazines, so it was all different colors.

I wanted the immediacy of the train, so you could see that there's like a subway.

And I really wanted that like rush, that urgency, that the rapid fire of it.

And I knew I wanted the red because of, you know, the meaning of red.

It's deep, it's dark, it's scary, it's angry, but it's also passionate and, you know, loving.

And I really wanted that zooming effect.

And so it's a spliced image of a subway.

And then behind it is another image, which is actually a MAGA hat, which I don't really know how often people recognize it.

- [Wayne] I did not notice that.

- But it is back there in the darkness.

- [Jim] Yeah, we were doing the pre-interview you said there's something back there.

- There is.

- And I couldn't find it.

- [Jim] That's fascinating.

- But when you look really carefully.

- When you look really carefully.

- You see it.

So it's a beautiful cover.

- Thank you so much.

- The third poem you had selected for us is "Woman Alive."

Would you give us an excerpt from that?

- Sure.

"Woman Alive."

And then I suddenly said, "It's good to be alive."

And I meant it not in the way of the reckless, but in the way a ban is lifted and then wrecked.

It is good to be alive under the tyrant for he highlights how we should love, how we can make our own rules, how to remember that life could still surprise us if we open ourselves to risk, if we oyster our way out of hate and rage and stupor, haphazardly and sideways, swollen and pearled with our pride, with our pain, with our wants, and muscle ourselves into willing for the only thing stronger than the tyrant is the heart.

- That's a incredible, powerful end of that.

That's real optimism.

- Thank you.

- What's the source of the optimism?

- You just, you need it.

You need to find the optimism wherever you can.

And it's really hard, and I talk about this all the time to everyone in my life that it's a choice you have to make every day to kind of look for the hope and look for the optimism.

Because what's the other option?

It's despair, right?

- There's a line in there where you said, "It's good to be alive in the time of the tyrant."

And when I read that, it reminded me of the line in "Hamilton," which I will not sing, but how lucky it is to be alive right now.

And when I heard that the first time, I thought, "Man, middle of the American Revolution, a lot of people dying, a lot of chaos and turmoil.

How lucky we are to be alive right now."

- That's right.

- Is that a a defensive crouch as much as anything?

- It might be that's really interesting.

But now that you said, as soon as you said that lyric, I could hear the song in my head.

- Why'd you do that?

(all laughing) - Now I have this ear word.

Oh, I forgot what your question was.

- About is that a defensive position?

- Oh, it was a defensive?

- Yeah.

- The optimism?

- The optimism.

- Yeah, I think it is, because I think it's really easy to go the other way.

And I think you need to, you need to kind of have something to hook onto, to clasp onto because otherwise you're just kind of, you know, wailing in the wind.

And so I think that idea of the heart, I know Wayne and I talked about that, and the only thing stronger is the heart.

I mean, that's all we have and that's what connects us.

And I think that's what you need.

- Subways figure prominently in a lot of your work.

Why is that?

I mean, I guess, not I guess you ride subways a lot, so... - You it's funny... - You do you do a lot of things a lot?

- I do.

- So what is it with subways, it fascinates me?

- I think any writer, you probably know this as well, will tell you that like, the number one thing to do when you're a rider is to observe, right?

And to eavesdrop.

And I think at least in New York City, the subway is such a crossroads of humanity, you know?

I mean, you just never know what you're gonna see.

You never know what's gonna happen.

And there's so many poems in the book that I've had moments where something is startling, right?

And in either a positive way or a negative way.

And I think it's, it's also kind of humbling because all people need to travel to get somewhere, right?

Like that famous John Dunn line, "No man is an island."

Like, we need each other, we need the transportation system.

Everyone in that subway car is with you to go somewhere.

You don't know anyone's backstory, but the tyrant is there on your train.

- Do you wonder about people's backstories when you see them?

- Not necessarily, but occasionally yeah, sometimes, absolutely, yeah.

- Your voice is clear throughout this, throughout these poems and there are flashes of rage as I would describe it.

Wayne already asked you whether or not it was cathartic.

When you revisit these poems now, do you still feel that visceral?

- Yep.

- Emotional response?

- It's actually really hard, yeah.

Because I've been doing so many readings with the book.

And I've been reading so many of these poems out loud and one after to the other, it's at times really draining.

Yeah.

And I feel that rage and I feel that anger in my body, and I don't like it.

It's really uncomfortable.

And so that's kind of what happens, is I get uncomfortable.

- Do you ever get approached by people who maybe wore a MAGA hat?

- [Leah] Mm.

- And how do they embrace what you've written?

- No, not yet.

(all laughing) I mean, I have to be prepared that that could happen.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- But also, I mean, I don't know how many of those people are gonna be coming to poetry reading.

- To poetry readings.

- But maybe, I mean.

- So we could get into so much more of what you do.

I wanna get into a couple of things.

We only have a couple of minutes.

Tell us about "Stay Brave."

- Oh, thank you.

So "Stay Brave" is my substack.

I started it around two years ago.

So a substack is like a website kind of thing, I don't even know how to explain what it is.

- [Jim] It's like a blog.

- It's like a blog, yeah, exactly.

And so mine is an interview series, and I started it.

So the whole point of "Stay Brave" is for women identifying creatives to help inspire other women identifying creatives to stay brave in their creative pursuits.

And so it's the same 13 questions every month.

I have a new person who does the interview, and I really started that to inspire other women identifying creatives to be brave because it's hard to take a risk in your art.

And I think, again, for community, I think especially women identifying creatives, they need other people to push them and to engage with them in creative.

- So the Mr. Colliers of the world, right?

- Yes.

- So when you are in the classroom now, what are you doing to encourage your students to find their voice the way Mr. Colliers inspired you?

We got about 40 seconds left here.

- I do so many creative writing assignments, so much personal writing.

I also like toil away giving personal feedback, which I think really resonates with some kids.

Some kids don't read it.

But the ones that do like I know it hits them.

- [Jim] Yeah.

- And I also run the magazine, so that's changes kids' lives.

- Well, the poems, the collections are outstanding.

Leah Umansky thank you so much for spending some time with us.

But that is all the time we have this week.

If you wanna know more about Story in the Public Square, you can find us on social media or visit pellcenter.org where we can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join us again next time for more Story in the Public Square.

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