- It's easy to think that people and animals are incapable of coexistence, but today's guest warns that mindset is dangerous to biodiversity, to the existence of some of the planet's most remarkable creatures, and even to humanity itself.

She's Ruth Ganesh, this week on "Story in the Public Square".

(inspirational music) (inspirational music continues) Hello and welcome to "Story in the Public Square" where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from The Pell Center at Salve Regina University - And I'm G. Wayne Miller, also with Salve's Pell Center.

- And our guest this week is Ruth Ganesh, a creative conservationist, and we'll unpack what that means in just a moment.

She's co-founder of the Coexistence Collective and a trustee of the International NGO Elephant Family.

Ruth, thank you so much for being with us.

- I am thrilled to finally be here.

- Well, you know, on the Cliff Walk in Newport, Rhode Island, including on the campus of Salve Regina University where we work is this incredible public art exhibit, "The Great Elephant Migration".

What is it?

- Well, in short, it's a hundred life size, anatomically perfect, beautiful elephants that have been created by Indigenous communities in Tamil Nadu, in the Nilgiri Hills in Southern India that's about to migrate across America, and Newport is the first stop.

- And so this is public art with a purpose, with a message, with a story that it's telling.

- [Ruth Ganesh] Exactly.

- What is the specific story of "The Great Elephant Migration"?

- Yeah, it's definitely not art for art's sake.

It's definitely with the purpose, and the story, I think it's, honestly, I think it's one of the greatest wildlife stories of our time.

The story is how, in the rest of the world, wildlife is on the down.

We're reducing numbers, but in India, despite human populations doubling in the last 40 years, the number of elephants has doubled.

Tigers are on the up.

Asiatic tigers are on the up, Asiatic lines are on the up, and so are rhinos, so we think this is a miracle, and the world needs to figure out what is India doing that is creating this completely contrary scenario to the rest of the world, so these elephants tell that story.

- Do you have a sense of what is India doing differently?

- Yes, I do.

I really do, and it's through the creation of this herd that I have learned that.

I've spent a long time in elephant conservation, helping conservationists all over Asia, and we've had all sorts of scientific interventions which have worked brilliantly, elephant corridors, warning systems to help warm people when elephants are nearby, you know, different ways of managing crops, the usual things, and they're all very valid, but what I came to realize through working with these various tribal groups in Tamil Nadu is that there is this spiritual perspective, this beautiful relationship with nature where animals are seen as gods, or they're seen as people.

Elephants are beautiful people.

They're seen as your sort of kin, your brother, your sister and, because of that relationship, because you don't see yourself as above the animals, you're just equal to them, the idea of an animal being inconvenient and therefore killing it is just not in the psyche, so there's this wonderful empathy that's going on at a national scale that I think we can all take a lot of inspiration from.

- So do we know how many Asian elephants there are?

- I don't think anyone knows precisely.

They're forests.

They're generally living in forests, so it's quite hard to do surveys, but it's roughly maybe 30,000 and India holds 2/3 of the population, 30 to 50, you know, it's around 25, 35 in India.

- Yeah, what are some of the other countries outside of-?

- So you have Thailand's another stronghold, Myanmar, harder to know in Myanmar exact numbers.

You have Asian elephants in Sri Lanka, in Borneo, Indonesia.

There's about 13 different countries where you'll find them, but they're outnumbered ten to one by African elephants.

- Interesting, so what threatens them?

I mean, you mentioned in India there's a reverence and a spirituality, but I'm imagining, or not imagining, I'm guessing that elsewhere there can be threats to them.

- Yes, and that, you know, all animals are constantly negotiating their position in this world next to human beings, so whilst the numbers are up, it is a constant negotiation.

In India, there was a poaching crisis in the 70s, but really the main threat now is human beings and human development.

It's farmland encroaching into forests, the fragmentation of their habitat.

Most of their range is actually outside of protected areas.

I think it's about 80% of their range is outside of protected areas, so figuring out how to cross roads, how to get from one fragment of habitat to another, that's when they're in the most vulnerable positions.

- You know, so let's talk a little bit about the exhibit in Newport right now.

Tell us about the herd.

What are they?

What are they made of?

- Yes, I mean, I'm so biased.

They're so beautiful first of all.

- I mean really, they are incredible.

- I was down there yesterday too, and it really just blew me away, as Jim was saying earlier.

- Oh, I'm so glad you went to see them.

- It's almost a spiritual experience, really.

It was just amazing.

- Yeah, I think what's happened is, because each of member of this lantana herd is based on a real elephant, and they're individually made, which you just never get anymore, a hundred absolutely unique crafted items.

They really have the personality of the actual wild elephants that each one represents, so you have trunks going in all directions.

You've got the sense of movement.

You get to see the boniness of the backs in the herd, and they yeah, they really do speak to you, so, and they're made out of this invasive weed Latana camara, which is one of the most prolific invasives in the whole world.

It's taken over about 40% of India's protected forests in the South, and is a real nightmare to deal with, so we've got this model where we remove the weed from the protected areas, which pushes the elephants out because they can't eat it and make furniture and elephants out of it to demonstrate a use and create this economy for it.

- Now you're working with indigenous partners to actually create the elephants themselves.

Who are the sculptors?

Who are the artists, the artisans creating these magnificent beasts?

- Oh, they are, yeah they're remarkable people who really know them, so there's about 200 different artisans working within the Nilgiri biosphere.

They are from the Bettakurumba Tribe, the Paniya Tribe, the Soliga Tribe, and the Kattunayakan.

I'm gonna get points for saying all those.

(all laugh) So they're forest dwellers and, you know, hunter gatherer communities that really know every single species, every single bird call in those forests, and they were actually, you know, they had a lot of challenges.

A lot of their land was removed from them, and they tended to be kind of bottom rung.

They were teeth pickers, and we knew that they had these incredible knowledge and skill of living with wildlife, and we asked, you know, "What about, do you think we could make some of the elephants?"

It took a long time to make such beautiful elephants, but over the last 10 years, it's gone from sort of a community of 10 people to now 200, and that's growing, so it's a great form of enterprise and employment that rewards them.

- The members of the herd are, the detail on them, they're exquisite pieces of art individually.

How long does it take to build one of these?

- For a big one, about three to four months, 'cause you draw them out life size.

Then you bend the steel rebar into shape, and you make a whole skeleton.

Then you go into the forest and collect the Lantana, and then it has to be treated, and boiled, and stripped, and then all you hear is the sound of hammers with, you know, the sculpted frames being clad with the Lantana, so it does, and then of course, the eyes, you know, the eyes are what everybody loves.

They really feel like they're looking into an elephant's eye, which is quite an amazing experience in its own right.

It's almost like they advocate peace, so, you know, and then the toenails go on and the tail.

(Jim laughs) So it takes quite a long time, but yeah, it's, you know, we've even got entirely female workshops going with women in beautiful saris making these fabulous elephants.

- Incredible.

- So I am guessing that stories of the reaction to these displays gets back to the artists.

- That's right, yeah.

- What do they think?

- It's a different world.

You know, they are living in quite a remote part of India, deep in their own communities, so the idea of London, and now Newport and America is a completely different world, but they are thrilled to hear that people love to hear their story and get moved by their creations.

It's given enormous status, quite rightly, to a very sophisticated group of people who live with nature in ways that we can only imagine.

- So bring it back to Newport.

Jim and I were mentioning, we were there yesterday.

When I was there, in addition to being completely fascinated and captivated by it, I'm a journalist, so I was watching people's reactions and everyone was enjoying it, but there was a range of reaction.

Children were touching the tails and trying.

A couple were trying to climb up and, talk about- - Despite the sign saying, "Don't climb the elephants."

(laughs) - Well, they were like four or five.

They don't read, but it was just wonderful.

Talk about the reactions that you've seen that- - Yeah, they're kind of- - The display elicits.

I mean, it's- - I mean, they're a leveler, aren't they?

I mean, who, I'm yet to meet the person that doesn't love elephants.

Maybe we'll find them through this program, (all laugh) but, you know, arms open wide, just children shouting elephant and running at the herds.

Parents trying to find their children are kind of lost between the elephant legs and, you know, will not be torn away, and I think, I love when I meet people from India whose families come from India or any part of South Asia who are around the elephants.

They all have their own elephant story from their parents or their grandparents that is always a joy to hear, but yeah, some people actually have an emotional reaction, and that's when I think we're really succeeding, because they feel the presence, the magnificent presence of being with an entire herd of elephants, which of course you can't do in real life.

You can't stand amongst a hundred elephants, and they get quite teary.

- You know, our campus is on the Cliff Walk.

We see people all year long, all summer long.

When I was there yesterday, what really struck me was the liveliness, the energy, the emotion that was just, it was palpable in the air.

It was, it's a remarkable exhibit.

People should definitely come visit it.

This is not the first place that the exhibit has been, and it's not the last place, so talk to us a little bit about "The Great Elephant Migration", 'cause it doesn't stop or start in Newport, right?

Newport's the first place in the United States.

Where are you going next?

- So yes, it's a very long journey ahead, and it's a year and a month that we're gonna be migrating.

We've kissed our husbands goodbye.

(all laugh) So next stop the herbivore's off to the cobbled streets of the Meat Packing District in Manhattan, so they'll take up residence there, and it will be literally a metaphor for India.

You know, when you have elephants within towns, crossing roads, stopping traffic, and then we are hoping to go to the Blue Mountains in Virginia, meet all the horsey people, (laughs) and when it starts to get a bit chilly and cold, they'll winter in Miami.

We're going to be in Miami for Art Week and Art Basel, and they'll be on the beach, so looking forward to seeing them with palm trees, with their feet touching the sand.

- Snow elephants we could call 'em.

- Exactly.

(all laugh) - Instead of snowbirds.

- I know, bad joke.

- Clever.

(laughs) - They will see some of the same people, yes.

So they'll be there for some time, and then when the snows melt, we will migrate them in electric trucks up to Blackfeet Nation in Browning, Montana to meet the Blackfeet, who are rewilding their land with bison and have this big moment, I think of, you know, there's a new wave in conservation thinking, Indigenous led conservation, so we really wanted to get the Indians and some of the Kenyans who are working with lions, who are also Indigenous led together, have this global moment before the finish line in LA.

- So this is something that, when I look at all of the materials that "The Great Elephant Migration" shared with us in anticipation, there's a lot of emphasis about the Indigenous partnerships.

Can you talk to us about what that thought is and what that new moment is in conservation with Indigenous led movements?

- Yes, I mean, I guess conservation has sometimes been criticized for being almost a colonial endeavor, you know, saving vast waves of land.

Often it's, you know, white people going into other people's countries and saving their wildlife when actually in reality, we might have wiped out a lot of our own.

For me, it was a personal realization of spending, I dunno, 15 years saving elephants, and then the rewilding movement started in the UK and we were desperately trying to persuade people to tolerate little tiny creatures like beavers, having wiped out everything, and I suddenly went, "Oh my gosh, hang on a minute."

In India, the farmers allow the elephants to walk through their crops.

They allow them to give birth in the tea plantations.

There is this complete amazing tolerance that goes on for all wildlife.

It is the absolute last possible resort to ever kill one of these animals, and they, you know, it's just not the mindset.

So I really felt, "My gosh, this is a moment in conservation where science is being married with Indigenous perspectives."

And Indigenous perspectives, Indigenous people have always lived with wildlife.

It's not people here, wildlife there.

It's, if you know animal behavior, you know how to live.

You don't fear in the same way.

You'll have stories about wolves and bears.

You won't have sort of nightmare children's stories about Little Red Riding Hoods.

It'll be quite the opposite, and there is this moment where science is, well conservation is realizing there is so much to learn from these communities.

They're of course, stewards for the land, but there is a sophistication of thought that science is, in a funny way, finally catching up with and reframing, which is actually where we were in the first place.

So I feel really passionately about, it's been a personal journey, you know, just working with this community, I've realized, "Wow, you know, we talk about making changes to our behavior to allow wildlife to thrive.

You've been doing it forever."

And I think that's an amazing story that should be applauded.

- That is an amazing story.

- Do you know where you're going to be in Los Angeles yet?

(Ruth laughs) - I'm glad you asked that.

That's the only location where we don't know, (all laugh) so if anyone's watching in together Los Angeles, please help.

- You will find one.

- Just a spare, you know, spare patch of land for a hundred elephants., maybe Santa Monica Boulevard, or maybe there's a big wildlife crossing that's happening in the Santa Monica Mountains.

We thought that might be a fun reference point.

- Is there a website where people can go to find dates when you get the final location for LA and?

- Yes, it's thegreatelephantmigration.org.

So yes, we'll put that up and all the other locations are on.

- So one of your bios describes you as a creative conservationist.

What does that mean?

(Ruth laughs) - Well, I think my contribution has been creativity, and I've done a lot of different public art exhibitions over the years that have raised funds and worked with about, I don't know, I think it's 1,000 different artists from various different disciplines to raise money and awareness at a city level for conservation, and all of that's channeled back into projects further afield.

- What is it about public art that makes it useful in a cause like this?

- I think, yeah, conservation, you know, we need as much PR as possible.

It's a PR job, isn't it, and I don't think there's anything more charismatic than an elephant, so it's kind of like charismatic megafauna in aid of charismatic megafauna half the time, and I think elephants are, and nature, a lot of animals are, they sort of excite an artist's imagination.

I always think about Dali, you know, invoking those elephants on stilts and was it Picasso who said that the elephant is evidence that God is an artist?

So, for me, it was like a natural thing.

It's like, "Oh, there is nothing more creative looking than an elephant or a giraffe.

Obviously we're gonna turn that into art, and people will respond."

And it's been a great model.

- So we've been hearing the phrase, "compassionate coexistence" in a lot of the interviews and discussions surrounding the migration.

What does that mean?

- Oh, it's a beautiful question.

Compassionate coexistence is, it's a mindset.

I think it's about not seeing it nature being locked away in protected areas, but allowing and tolerating wildlife coming into spaces that are very human dominated and responding with quite simply compassion, so I think that's what everyone's driving at when they describe coexistence in that manner.

It's not just about putting a fence up.

It's about having a relationship and an empathy with the animal itself.

- Almost a dialogue, it sounds like, right, and so- - And that would apply to city dwellers too.

I mean, there's a lot of wildlife in cities and in suburbs, you know, we don't often, you know, we think of woods and, but- - But let's get specific about this, so you described a little bit about what that coexistence looks like in those communities in India.

In the United States, where I think the mindset is very different, where if you see a wild animal, most people think, "Oh, it's a nuisance, it's a pest, it's a danger," you know, what would that sort of a coexistence look like in the American context?

- Yes, it's a great question, and I'm not American, so (Ruth laughs) but I think that, in the American context, if you're in a city, you know, it could be that you're looking at the glass in a skyscraper and how to make it so that a bird doesn't fly into it that's on a migratory path, which our partners at the Wild Bird Fund in New York are implementing.

I think in the wild, you know, we fear what we don't know.

We respond to a coyote with great apprehension.

If you don't really know the behavioral, how shy they are, or how, it's actually a very rare thing for a coyote to attack your dog.

It's not the commonplace thing, so I think coexistence in perhaps the American context is really about having more knowledge about wildlife and then just small modifications of behavior.

So it could be putting lights on your cattle at night.

That will deter an attack, or having guardian dogs, you know, that's very effective.

In Italy we have a project with wolves and just bringing back shepherds has made a humongous difference, so that both thrive, you know, and, you know, everybody knows about the bear safe behavior with garbage that I guess people in Montana are brilliant at doing, so I think it's just about learning the small modifications to our behavior that actually allow an animal that otherwise might be persecuted to actually go along its everyday life and really not interfere with your business.

It's okay.

- It sounds like a lot of this is simply taking time to observe, to sort of sit back and, when you see the squirrel run across your fence or the raccoon across the street or whatever, just thinking about that, contemplating that and what that means and how, you know, the squirrel isn't necessarily your enemy because the squirrel ate all your birdseed.

Am I right about that?

(Jim laughs) - Yeah, I think that's exactly right, and it's the most fun thing in the world, right?

I mean, there's no greater adventure than looking at wild animals and observing them and knowing that they're there.

I think it's about beauty as much as anything else - So some of this is about the personal changes we can all make.

Are there policy changes that need to follow suit?

- Yeah, I mean, I think that wildlife corridors are actually being really promoted in America from what I hear.

There's been huge budget provision for them and they're going to be rolled out in all of the states, so that's fantastic, and long may it continue, but yeah, I think that is quite a gnarly issue, and definitely I'm in the camp, which is talking about tolerance (laughs) and not, you know, sometimes the idea of just killing, indiscriminate killing, actually, it's not very scientifically driven.

You know, populations of wolves, they regulate themselves and if you just kill off a certain number, you might end up with, you know, wolves that don't have mothers that can teach them how to behave in relation to humans, so you can end up making the problem worse, so I guess I'm on the side of tolerance.

- And there's something too about, in terms of what the loss of biodiversity means for our species as well.

- It absolutely, you know, you can go on the argument of just saying, "This is the most beautiful way to live with incredible looking animals and incredible landscapes bursting with life."

But yes, there is the argument that if we wipe out ecosystems, starting with bats and birds and bees, and going right up to the top to elephants, we will end up destroying all life on which we depend, and wiping ourselves out, so yes.

- Do you hear or find any opposition to the ideals that you uphold?

I don't know if you, if that would be in a letter, an email, somebody coming to an exhibit, and I don't know what form that might take, but I'm trying to gauge whether there are people who think, you know, "Come on."

- Yeah, I think there are people that think that wildlife should just be in protected areas and that's it.

That's the animal zone, and you have the human zone over here, but, you know, there just isn't enough space, you know?

That would mean we'd wipe out animals that, you know, most animals don't just live in those zones.

They need to access other areas and resources, so, you know, we're in a biodiversity crisis and a climate crisis, which is related to that, so it just doesn't sound like a very convincing argument.

And I suppose it's also about what kind of world you want to live in.

The idea of animals only living in reserves sounds a bit like a world that just becomes a giant zoo, and what's the thrill in that?

- You know, we got about two and a half minutes left here.

The elephants, the members of the herd are for sale, and the proceeds of that are benefiting NGO partners around the world.

Tell us about the fundraising element of this.

Who do these proceeds benefit?

What's the work that they're doing?

- Oh, great.

Yeah, so we are hoping to sell many, many elephants and we've got off to a winning start in Newport.

(Jim laughs) And yes, all of that goes into a big fund for human wildlife coexistence.

We have lots, we have 22 different conservation NGO partners that are benefiting from that fund, and they include projects like the Wild Bird Fund in New York, which is helping migratory birds not fly into glass and rescue birds.

In Newport, it's Save the Bay.

- Save the Bay.

- Wonderful, Save the Bay, so it's kind of all creatures, great and small.

You've got elephants in aid of salt marsh sparrows, so they're removing the invasive phragmites where the sparrows can't nest so that they have the opportunity to breed.

And then, you know, further afield, we're working in, we support projects the Wood River Wolf Project, in Idaho, which is helping farmers and wolves coexist, Indigenous led in Montana with the rewilding of bison, and then further afield, of course we are working in Kenya with lions and Maasai warriors protecting communities from lions and figuring out how to negotiate sharing space, so it's really around the way, actually, almost every single continent other than Antarctica is being covered.

- Wow, wow.

All right, so 30 seconds.

What drew you to conservation work in the first place?

- Adventure.

(Jim laughs) I just wanted to have a great big whopping adventure with life, and then that's become much more textured and layered as I've learned about the real issues of the day with, you know, the crisis with climate and biodiversity loss, but I'm having that adventure and I mean, this is it.

This is the pinnacle of that adventure.

We've got elephants, and we've got America, and we've got an open road, and we've got the most special people in the whole world behind us, so.

- Well, it's an adventure and we're thankful that you brought it to Newport, and we're thankful that you brought us along with it.

So, Ruth Ganesh, it's "The Great Elephant Migration".

Thank you so much for being with us.

- Thank you.

- Best of luck to your work.

That's all the time we have this week, but if you wanna know more about "Story in the Public Square", you can find us on social media, or visit pellcenter.org where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes, asking you to join us again next time for more "Story in the Public Square".

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