- The idea of caste or hereditary structure to society is foreign to most audiences in the United States, but today's guests leads young adult readers into an exploration of caste in her native India she's Padma Venkataraman this week on Story in the Public Square.

(gentle upbeat music) Hello, and welcome to a Story in the Public Square where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludis from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller with the Providence Journal.

- Each week we talk about big issues with great guests, storytellers, novelists, journalists, and more to make sense of the big stories shaping public life in the world today.

This week we're joined by acclaimed young adult novelist, Padma Venkataraman, who joins us all the way from Germany, Padma, thank you so much for being with us.

- Thank you so much for having me back.

- Well, we wanna talk to you about your latest book "Born Behind Bars" it's set in your native, in your home of Chennai... Am I pronouncing that right?

Chennai India.

- Yeah.

- Can you give us just a quick overview of the book?

- "Born Behind Bars" is actually based on a true story and it's about a boy who was born in jail in India and lived there until he was I think seven or eight is the true story.

And in the book he's nine.

And then suddenly the warden in the book decides he's too old to stay in this women's prison and then releases him and he finds himself ultimately out on the streets homeless and he is determined to try his best to free his mother even though the whole world tells him that there is just no hope that he can.

- And so this is in a lot of ways an exploration of the castes system in India for audiences that might not know really what that entails.

Can you just give us a quick overview of what castes are and the way they structure society?

- Sure, so the castes system actually has a social basis more than a religious basis, but it was supposed to be something that divided the society in a way that helped people to I think be in a sense equitable.

So the highest castes were be Bhramins who was supposed to be the scholars and they was supposed to teach and, you know, help people in terms of religious, things that they did like priests and were never supposed to demand any money.

They were only supposed to take whatever people gave them and they were supposed to give everybody the help that they deserve or their services without taking any money and without holding onto wealth, that was supposedly the idea.

And there was supposed to be at the top of the caste system and then beneath that where the Kshatryia who where the rulers, the kings and the soldiers and they had a different set of rules that they were supposed to follow.

You know, their lives are supposed to be a little more flexible.

Beneath that came the Vaishya who were the merchants and the lowest castes were the Sudra who were the, you know, of various people who did jobs that were menial jobs that were considered well difficult.

They were supposed to be the bastion on which all of society invested technically.

And there was all this idea about how society wouldn't move forward unless you looked after these...

The people who were doing these jobs that were so important and yet, like I said, they started to consider those people who are doing these vital jobs to be lower caste, to be, as I said menial and all of these other, you know, very pejorative terms.

- And could you move between those castes?

- Initially, apparently so historians tell us that there was a lot of flexibility.

There are poems written by people who claim that they were from a mixed background, saying I'm a Bhramin because I'm writing this poem.

Obviously a writer would be a Bhramin and then, you know, my father is a tanner, which would be from the, you know, one of the lower castes now and my mother is something else.

In the recent past and for, I would say for several generations for you know about thousands of years now, the castes system has not been so flexible.

There have been periods and places in India where it's been a little more flexible, but for in large part no.

- So I couldn't help but think while reading this great book about the lowest caste groups or group in India and other segments of societies in other parts of the world that could be also considered lowest caste.

And I'm thinking in particular of some groups in the United States and certainly during the pandemic many of those people have suffered greatly.

Do you see that parallel to... Am I drawing too strong a parallel here or does this actually speak to other people in other parts of the world too?

- I think it absolutely does.

I think in every society, unfortunately human beings have found ways to oppress each other and to push down certain segments of society.

And anybody who doesn't have access to resources because of who they were happened to be born to or who they are, that to me is really wrong.

And so there's always been that problem I think of oppression and of lack of privilege and people who are marginalized in every society.

And certainly that is a problem that we have in our United States as well.

- So reading the book it's sad, it begins in a prison obviously.

And you said it was based on a real story that the prison that is described in the book is really a kind of hell.

And I'm just curious is that common, is that type of incarceration common in India, maybe you can expound a little on that.

- I think there was this woman called Kabir Betty and she did a lot to improve the prison system in India and to reform it, but there are still lots of jails in which people are held, like Kabir's mother in the story and they're called under trials.

So they're in jail.

They have not even gone to prison, which is technically where you go after you get convicted.

So these people who are in jail haven't even had a chance to plead their case.

And I read an estimate that about 70% of those behind bars in India are under trials, like Kabir's mother in the book who have not yet had a chance to even have a day in court.

- So you know, again, there's a parallel with other parts of the world with that I'm thinking of Iran and China specifically, again, was that in your mind when you're writing this because the book clearly has a global perspective and meaning?

- Absolutely.

I mean, I think the reason that I write about India is that although I'm American now the Indian culture is where I grew up and I think that there are so many of the stories that come to me that I'm inspired to write.

I set in India, but I think they are all global relevance all of them and I think particularly this at this time, when we are looking at our privilege in so many countries, I think it's so important a time when unfortunately in so many countries we have dictators who are threatening or taking away people's right to speak.

I think it's just very important that we look at the way that we administer justice, right?

It's called justice.

Is it really just?

I think that's something that is... We need to ask in every culture, in every country and to look at our systems of incarceration as well.

- Padma, you mentioned that this story was based on a real story and I'm wondering how you came across it in the first place.

- I came across that actually it was a BBC report and it was over 10 years ago.

I think I said this the first time I was on your show as well.

You know, ideas sit in my mind for a long time before they actually make their way onto the page.

And this was certainly one of them.

And it departed.

I mean, I think that was an inspiration.

Just the fact that there was this real person who had lived through this experience of being born in jail.

And I have to say that until I came across that BBC report I didn't even think about what happens to pregnant women who give birth in jail or in prison, you know, what happens to their babies?

I hadn't even considered that.

And as I started to read and even found out that we continue to incarcerate young people in the United States and certainly in India as well.

I mean, how do we do that and call ourselves civilized?

- Your prime audience is the young adult audience and that's essentially teenagers.

Do you have any sense of your readers in that age group obviously enjoying and being captivated by the story, but do you get any sense that they can begin or do appreciate some of the more global perspectives that we've been talking about in terms of placing this book and this story in the setting of the world and perhaps even their world, do you get that kind of feedback?

Do you know?

- Absolutely.

I know with "The Bridge Home" which was my book, the last book that I had out, it was a global read aloud and that means children all over the world actually read this book and because of "The Bridge Home" there were just so many kids out there who felt inspired to actually take action and wrote to me about it and on my website, which is just www.padmavenktraman.com.

So you have to spell my name correctly.

- [Jim] Will flash that on the screen there.

- Okay.

But yeah, thank you.

And if you look at that, actually there is a list of links to charities that I trust and there are so many more than the charities that I actually know.

And I know that people have taken action through my website, gone to those charities directly and done something or done something else in their backyard.

So whether it's inspired to do something about homelessness in your own backyard because you read "The Bridge Home" or it is to take action and to do something about either homelessness or, you know, injustice in our incarceration system in the United States or in India or any other country, it doesn't matter to me because I really think we have to start thinking of ourselves as a global family more and more with global climate change and everything else that's threatening us.

- Padma, what does that feel like as an artist to have that kind of impact and to have that kind of reach.

So Global Read Aloud, with the now you're hearing from, you know, people from all over the world who are taking action on a very personal level, what does that feel like?

- It's enormously humbling and I feel so enormously grateful, immensely grateful to think that the words that, for some reason...

I know it sounds very cliche, but really I do feel that, you know, I feel like there are these characters who are there and who come to me and the fact that I'm able to put their stories down on paper and that this story then is able to change someone's life for the better.

That is incredible to me.

You know, when I feel so upset when I think a one human being not even a single human being who is innocent should ever have to suffer a minute behind bars and yet we have so many people who are doing that in our world today.

And if born behind bars, if my novel can help any of them or help in the future that we don't have this injustice perpetrated, that's huge.

And I think it just feels humbling like I said, it's so grateful that words that are connected to my name have that ability.

- So I wanna read a passage from early in the book Padma and then there's a question embedded here.

Kabir the boy who was born in jail has great hope despite the circumstances into which he is born and in which he and his mother lived.

And here's an early passage, "Amma always says being born in jail "doesn't mean I can't do great things.

"someday I will break out of this place "and then I will set my mother free."

There's an incredible element there of hope and hope is a really a theme that runs through all of your books, certainly the ones that I have read.

Talk about why hope in the midst of what you could legitimately call despair is important and why it's important to you in your writing.

- I think it's important to me as a human being.

When I grew up in India, I was born into a very, very privileged family.

And then when I was eight my parents separated and suddenly we lost everything.

And my mother and I were no longer wealthy or privileged and, you know, so a large part of my childhood, a formative part of my childhood was knowing that you could be somebody who is marginalized by society and that understanding is something that I think I carried with me and those are the characters that resonate with me, but what kept me going through my childhood and what keeps me going through whatever up and downs I might've had later on as well is both hope and humor and I like to think that my novels, even though they all touch such difficult topics in a way such, you know, harsh and real topics with a lot of honesty, because I don't believe in sugarcoating any of this.

I do I think present a very honest point of view to my young readers and my older readers as well.

And I think that's important to me, but honest humor, honest hope is also important.

And I think they can survive.

I think there are human beings who have survived.

I think I have survived a lot as well and I think people like us keep hope alive and so I think that's why it's so important in my stories.

And like I said, humor that is not directed outside at someone else or someone else's expense, but humor that is just (indistinct) that comes from within, I think is very important to me.

- Do you remember the kinds of stories that resonated with you when you were the age of your typical reader?

- I do, but there were some parts of stories that resonated with me.

I don't think I ever found a story that I fully resonated with because I was growing up in the '70s in India and unfortunately all of the children's books that I had given to me had white protagonists and or very basis statements in them as well about people who are brown or black or dark skinned.

And so I think it was very difficult for me to relate to that and also, you know, there's so many issues.

Sometimes people with disabilities are not portrayed well and I have an invisible disability.

So all of that, I think it was hard for me growing up to really find a book that I resonated with, but there were certainly parts of different books that I loved.

- So while Kabir is in prison, he finds escape.

And I think that probably is the right word with a teacher and with reading and with stories.

Talk... You've hit on this already, but just talk about the power of storytelling to change, to inspire, to affect great things basically in a way that facts and data don't necessarily do.

I mean, you're a scientist so you know the facts and data part of things, but you've gravitated toward telling stories long way of saying, why is storytelling important and what is its power?

- I mean, I was an oceanographer and I absolutely loved being an oceanographer, but I've started to realize that there's so much in the world that is happening that people just refuse to believe or refuse to look at based on how they feel.

And I think that was one of the reasons that I started to write more and more stories that I wanted to ultimately move a human being to greater understanding or greater compassion or greater empathy.

Because I think what a book can do is when you open it it's like opening actually a part of your own self.

And it helps you.

It sticks you inside someone else's body and someone else's soul for a little while.

And when you start to see through someone else's I wanna say mind and heart, even if you disagree with that person, which you're certainly welcome to do, I think it increases in general your sense of understanding, your sense of appreciation for humanity and what other people go through.

And that's something that I think is so necessary now.

I mean, when you look at it, when you look at the facts that are out there and yet people refuse to agree that global climate crisis are happening.

I think my goodness, I mean, I love our planet.

I love human beings.

I think that we need to learn to live together in a very fundamental understanding way.

And I think it's also really important to me that people don't think that equality means sameness because it doesn't.

Equality means celebrating difference, honoring difference, respecting difference, right?

Respecting diversity, but it just means giving everybody a safety net.

(indistinct) sorry, go ahead.

- Finish your thought please.

- All I meant was that, I mean, it saddens me that especially in the United States we're so afraid of that word, compassion or social net or social democracy.

And, you know, I think we need to understand that that is a reality in so many places in the world.

And just to say, I will hold you from breaking your bones doesn't mean that I'm telling you, you cannot fly as high as you wish.

There are so many societies in which there is no top, you can soar, but there is a safety net.

And I think that is to be admired.

- Is the missing ingredient empathy?

- I feel that way.

I think it's certainly is one of the missing ingredients.

I think the other thing that's very important.

I think it's increasingly important now, is the ability to distinguish fact from fabrication and I think it's so important for us to help young people especially who are our future understand how to distinguish what is real from what is made up.

- You write in your very eloquent authors note that you have experienced and seen, experienced firsthand hatred and prejudice in the five countries in which you've lived.

And I know your daughter has also experienced that.

Can you just talk briefly about those experiences and how you... What you say to your daughter when she is the subject of such?

- I think one of the things that's so important is for us to accept first of all that there is systemic racism in our country and I think many people get upset and they don't want to see that.

And I think anyone of color has probably...

Many people of color anyway, have certainly experienced racism.

I mean, in my case very recently with COVID and all the sort of scares that COVID had come from Asia, there was just a whole lot of anti-Asian hate crime.

Not that it didn't exist before.

So after September 11th, I was already subjected which was a long time ago, was subjected to a whole lot of things that were not okay.

And that were absolutely racist.

There's been, I think in my life, a resurgence of that recently with COVID and the fears that it came out of Asia with people yelling at me to take the virus home.

And I thought, well, you know, if I did have the virus I would take it back to Narragansett and that's about as close to home as you are too you know?

And so I think there has been that with my daughter certainly she has experienced racism and a lack of understanding and people who think that they're not that, you know, there's this whole idea of people will say to your eye, I am not racist.

And that's even after we've had, you know, professor Kennedy come and write these fabulous work and say "How To Be An Anti-Racist" and yet I wish people would read more books like that would understand what it means to be anti-racist.

I just...

I don't know what to tell you except that I think it's very important to talk honesty to a child about these things.

She knows who she is.

She identifies as a person of color and she's proud of it.

And I think the fact that she is who she is, is because I've never tried to pretend that it doesn't exist and I said this recently and I'll say it again.

I love our country.

And I think love means telling somebody when you think something is not okay.

You know, if my daughter did something that I didn't like, I would tell her that I think that it's not okay because I care about her and I want her to be the best she can be.

And that's the same way that I feel about our country too.

When it goes wrong, if I shut up and if I don't say anything, I am not being a good citizen at all.

I'm a good citizen if I speak up and I say, I'm sorry America, you are not doing something right and this is how you fix it and I'll help you.

- It seems to me that the overriding message from "Born Behind Bars" is that we need to have empathy and compassion.

Jim addressed that, that we need to seek change.

We have to work toward change.

And that's a very hopeful message and a very uplifting message.

Do you think that we can move in that direction?

I mean, when I say we I'm referring to the United States, do you see any signs that we are moving in that direction and do you still maintain that hope that we can get further along than we are?

- [Jim] We've got about 90 seconds left, Padma.

- Okay, I will say that I hope very much that we can.

I believe that we can and I hope that we can and I hope that we will.

I don't know that we are as yet.

I think we have a long, long way to go, but I believe we can otherwise I wouldn't be who I am and I wouldn't be a writer.

- Well, we hope the book is a great success.

It will be up by the time this airs, it will be on sale and I read a start to finish and I would just find a little word here.

I'm not a young adult.

I read it start to finish and it resonated with me.

So you don't have to be, you know, 13 to 18 to read and appreciate and really applaud this great new book Padma.

So congratulations.

- [Jim] Padma about 30 seconds left.

What's next for you?

- Oh, "Born Behind Bars" is just on the shelves.

So I don't really know.

I have a lot of books in the works.

I always work on a few different things.

So hopefully the next book that I write will be good enough that I will someday come back to your show for a third time.

- But unfortunately that is all the time we have this week.

She is Padma Venkataraman and the book is "Born Behind Bars".

That's all the time we have this week, but if you wanna know more about Story In the Public Square, you can find us on Facebook and Twitter or visit pellcenter.org.

We can also catch up on previous episodes.

For G Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes asking you to join us again next time.

More story in the public square.

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