- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, the decision to forgive student loan debt hangs in the balance.

Some say it's not just about the debt, but also about the opportunities, or lack thereof, for minority professionals.

- There are a number of forces at work that make the opportunities for black talent as great as they've ever been.

- We have to make sure that we're creating an ecosystem that works for everybody.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson in for Deborah Holt Noel.

It seems as though it's a conversation we just can't escape, another tragic event involving a semi-automatic rifle ending in the loss of four lives at a local Tulsa, Oklahoma hospital.

The nation's continued outpouring of cries demanding for change is something that can no longer be ignored.

- We of course, all of us hold the people of Tulsa in our hearts, but we also reaffirm our commitment to passing common sense gun safety laws.

[applause] And I don't have to tell anybody in this room, but President Biden has taken more executive action to combat gun violence than any other President at this point in their administration, but we cannot as an administration or those of us here address this alone no more excuses.

Thoughts and prayers are important, but not enough.

We need congress to act.

- We have a gun violence epidemic in this country.

We've had over 200 mass shootings this year alone 27 school shootings, you know almost 40,000 Americans die at the hands of a gun every year.

This is a peculiar American problem.

This doesn't happen anywhere else in the developed world and we have responsibility to do something about it.

- This is the begginning of real gun safety legislation.

I believe this package should not be given short shrift in the United States Senate and I'm going to begin working with Senators to look seriously at this gun package.

This cannot be the House gun package.

This has to be America's gun package.

It's a conversation we'll continue to have on Black Issues Forum because it certainly doesn't stop here.

So until then, let's turn our attention to today's discussion.

On the heels of the Biden administration canceling $5.8 billion in student loans for former Corinthian College students, many are asking, "what about us?"

We've been curious about what the Biden administration's final decision will be on student loan debt forgiveness.

To discuss this and the outlook of the workforce opportunities, we welcome our guest, Maurice Jones, CEO of OneTen, a network for Black talent, Durham's Mayor Pro Tem Mark Anthony Middleton, and Dr. Henry McCoy, Director of Entrepreneurship with North Carolina Central University.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for being with us.

- Thanks for having us.

- Good to be here.

- Reports show that Black college graduates are entering the workforce with an average of $25,000 more in student debt loan than white college graduates while barely making enough to pay them off.

Henry, from your experience in working with students, do you find that Black students are taking out more loan money for school?

- Yeah, well, I think it's a couple of things that you're dealing with here.

You're dealing with situations where we know that the wealth gap between African Americans and others is pretty large and so in order to get to college in the first place, a lot of students have to take out debt in order to make it work.

But then you also have situations where they're also trying to support family members at home and things of that nature.

So yeah, it's certainly something I've seen quite a bit.

- Would you say it's intensified over the years in your time?

- Yeah, I think college education, just like many other things, is getting more and more expensive and so when you start thinking about the idea of what does it take to pay for tuition and being in communities and living expenses and things of that nature, so it certainly is a lot more expensive.

If you look back over time in decades before, the cost of college education was much lower and, like everything else, it's just gotten higher and higher over time and it continues to escalate.

- For months now, we've been hearing rumblings about $10,000 as the magic number.

Mark Anthony, is $10,000 enough that the Biden administration is pushing?

Is that too small?

Is that really enough to ease some of the problems that our students are seeing?

- Well, Kenia, first off, thank you for having me.

The United States of America is the most powerful nation on the face of the planet.

We spend more on defense than the next 10 nations combined.

I think we need to look at debt relief as a matter of national security.

So the short answer is no, $10,000 is not enough.

One of the animating propositions of public education is to have an informed electorate so we can govern ourselves effectively.

If we're gonna be making decisions about how we run our nation, you need people that are learning, people that are educated.

So I think we need to view this as a matter of national security, loosening up that talent, making sure that we have folk to populate our factories, folk that are informed and educated to make sure that this democracy thrives.

So the short answer is $10,000 is not enough.

I think it should be on par on what we spend on defense.

- Correct.

We look at graduation, four years after graduation, students are coming out of school, but studies are showing that about 48% of Black students still owe an average of 12.5% more than they've actually borrowed.

Maurice, we're gonna have a more in depth conversation later about job opportunities, but from your perspective, is this a racial economic justice issue?

- It is definitely an issue regarding the wealth disparity that we have in the country, which breaks down largely along the lines of race in place.

And so from that perspective, to repeat what the Mayor said there, this is an issue of of national security and how we make sure that the country really is positioned to be the global leader for the future.

And when you've got that kind of inequality, you've got a huge risk.

- And I think what we're all talking about here is change, but, as we know, most times when we talk about change, that boils down to providing education on the need for change.

So Dr. McCoy, are colleges and universities being proactive with educating students on the potential dangers of student loans?

- Well, that most universities that have dealt with it really understand this to be a huge problem because it affects so many other things.

When you have students who take out loans to try to get through the university, sometimes those loans max out and they have to leave the university early, have to get a job, and so if they're not completing university, then that certainly is a problem for the university.

In addition to that, we know that one of the key aspects of the sustainability of colleges is donors and those alumni.

So if you have alumni who can't afford to even give small amounts back to you because they're paying student debts for so long, then that becomes a sustainability issue for the university.

So, I think, most universities are trying to do more to educate their students on the the issues around student loan debt.

But again, it certainly is an economic issue.

You think about something that we must remember, President Obama often has admitted that it wasn't until he essentially became, you know, globally known that he was able to stop, to pay off his student loans.

And so that should give you some context of just how big of a burden that is for most folks, when they leave the university.

- Mm-hmm.

And Mark Anthony, when we look at the local landscape, as far as student debt goes, is the state doing anything locally to help advocate for our students, who are finding themselves in this position?

- Well, not enough.

You've heard conversations about financial literacy in high school and teaching the importance of debt and debt management, while students are in high school.

You heard talk about that, but in terms of statutes or or codifying that, I don't think enough.

You know, it's interesting when my billionaire fraternity brother, Robert Smith, took care of the debt for the Morehouse class of 2019 and you saw that kind of Pentecostal church service break out at graduation.

I think that suggests that those students understand the ramifications.

They knew what they had to go through in order to fund the education.

So, it's not so much that we don't know what it means because that celebration suggested they understood exactly.

He wasn't just undeferring dreams.

He was also releasing an economic stimulus plan for America.

All of that money that would've been spent on debt, now is free to start businesses, to buy cars, homes, to stimulate the economy, which makes, you know, good sense.

But to your original question, no, I don't think we're doing enough, in terms of law.

This has gotta be a federal problem, this a federal issue and we're gonna need federal intervention and leadership on it.

- Mm-hmm.

Dr. McCoy, let's talk about accountability for the universities and the colleges.

We've seen the example with Corinth college and those students who seem to have been misled in certain areas.

What is this state doing specifically to make sure that the schools are being held accountable to ensure that they're directing our students on the right path?

- Well, certainly one of the things that we've seen in recent years and recent decades is the rise of the for-profit university.

Most universities in North Carolina are not for-profit you know, they've been set up for the specif$ic purpose of educating the populace and trying to make sure that, you know we do have an educated workforce or educated population.

And so what we've seen that really has been a challenge is this rise of for-profit universities.

And I think, in some ways, it's not to say that having a for-profit university is inherently bad, but they tend to be a lot more expensive, as well as, there's also sometimes challenges with accreditation and making sure that students are getting what they're paying for.

And so, I think that combination makes it very, very challenging.

So, I think at least for now, we haven't seen some of the same kind of issues here in the state, on the ground, around students dealing with these organizations.

But because we now have online learning, students can take classes from, you know, universities all across the country.

That's where that issue ends up, creeping up into the state.

Whenever you're talking about for-profits, that you can't regulate from, you know, North Carolina.

- Mm-hmm.

Maurice, I wanna bring you into the conversation.

Have you seen, kind of, this trend of students coming into the workforce, still dealing with some of these student loan debt issues?

- Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Students come into the workforce with debts and student loans are probably the number one issue.

And look, that impacts a number of things, right?

It impacts their ability to purchase a home, right?

One of the biggest sources of wealth that we have in our country, it impacts the ability of folks to acquire credit for other assets that they need.

So, yeah, this is one of the big issues, as I suggested, with respect to the wealth disparity, in the country right now, is the loans that students bring into the workplace and the need to have to pay them off before they can do things like purchase a home and start their journey and building the assets they need to really do the kinds of things that they need to do or desire to do, throughout the course of their lives.

- Yeah.

I know we don't have a magic wand, but if, you know, Dr. McCoy, I'll pitch this to you, if there was a number that you think could, kind of, put us back, put our students back on a course of success, what would that magic number be for our community to get back into a space of being able to now progress forward?

- Well, as you said, there's no magic number.

I think, it may be more of a percentage.

Right?

I mean, depending on what university you go to, depends on what kind of costs you're associated with.

Public universities certainly are, you know, very cost effective or essentially, more cost effective sometimes than privates.

But, you know, privates are important as well.

And so, you know, it may be one of those situations where perhaps you look at, you know, eliminating 50% of students' college debt or something to that standpoint.

Or finding some way by which they can do more service on behalf of the state, the nation or whatever, that could get that debt eliminated altogether.

So, I think we have to be more creative, in terms of what that looks like.

- Historically, black workers have been overrepresented in low wage entry level jobs and underrepresented in senior leader and executive roles.

62% of white graduates are in full time employment while only 53% of black graduates hold those positions.

Often, we think of work for preparedness as preparing people for the jobs out there.

But reality is, there are many systemic barriers that prevent many from benefiting from the employment opportunities that do exist within our community.

Maurice, I wanna come to you.

What, would you say that, equal work opportunities exist for black and brown students?

Do they actually exist?

- So, I would say that we've got a number of barriers that we need to tackle before you really have equal access to quality employment opportunities.

Let me give you an example of one, that OneTen, in particular, is embracing and fighting.

If you look at the workforce today and you look at jobs that pay $60,000 and above, what you see is, on paper.

79% of those jobs require that you have a four year degree in order for you just to compete.

Same way, if you look at jobs that pay $40,000 and above today across the country, you'll see that on paper 71% of those jobs require that you have a four year degree and then look at the workforce.

If you look at Black talent in the workforce ages 25 and above what you see is 76% of us do not yet have our four year degree, and by the way, that number is 66% across all demographics.

But what you see really clearly is a credential that is a systemic barrier to literally folks earning their way into the middle class in America.

That has a particularly adverse impact on Black talent and other talent of color.

This is something that we can do something about and what the 110 journey is about is trying to help the country, the private sector in particular, to move to a skills first basis for hiring and for promoting.

Look at skills and look for those skills that you need to do the job and the various ways that people can come about them.

If we can achieve that kind of culture in our employment sector, we will make it one that is definitely more fair and more accessible to Black talent and other talent of color in particular.

- I wanna put a pin there and add a question.

Would you say that trade based jobs are starting to increase?

Are we seeing that need come back into our economy?

- What I would tell you is we are seeing a skills first approach across all jobs, not just trade jobs.

I mean, you're seeing it in finance, you're seeing it in operations, you're seeing it in sales.

I think more and more companies are realizing, look, what I need is an individual who has the skills and the aptitudes and the attitudes that can enable them to master this job, and that is not at all conditioned by the degree or the credential that one has.

And look, keep in mind, this is in the context of an economy where we have 11 million unfilled jobs, and so employers in particular are realizing that they have to take another approach or a set of other approaches in order to get the talent that they want.

So, yeah, I think what you're seeing now is a movement for skills first as the way in which companies are going about hiring and promoting talent, and let me tell you that is a very good thing.

We need to accelerate that movement.

- On the heels of that, we know that our students need to be prepared adequately to complete and compete the employment pool that is oversaturated with candidates.

Some people are asking questions.

Is there a learning gap among our students?

Dr. McCoy, are students being met where they are educationally?

- Well, I think, a lot of things that Maurice says are absolutely correct, and I think we can't disconnect this from the previous conversation about student debt.

I mean, what individuals are seeing is they're seeing their parents or their friends who go to college, they get large amounts of debt, they get into the workforce, and aren't being compensated the way that perhaps they should, and so now you are asking the question the value proposition.

I think right now what we have to do is really rethink overall kind of how are we getting those skills?

How are we being educated?

Because you know, many of us came up during a time where the kind of the place you had to get your education was in a traditional university, or perhaps community college or things of that nature.

Folks are now learning their skills in a lot of different ways.

They may be learning it because they have their own computers and they're figuring it out themselves and those kind of things, so I think there's always a place for formal education, and so I think the key based on your question is really understanding where folks are and meeting them where they are, doing better assessments to figure out, wait a minute, I didn't know that you had this skill that you do have and you picked it up someplace that perhaps I didn't even know you could get it, and so I think we have to do a better job of really meeting folks where they are and assessing what they have, filling in those gaps that they don't have and figuring out where they really need to be, whether it's in a program to get a credential, whether it's at a community college, whether it is at a at a four year college, or whether it's some other route for them to be prepared for the workforce in those 11 million or so jobs as Maurice says that are unfulfilled right now.

- And in that assessment, a lot of times we see many professionals or recent graduates taking that alternative route to entrepreneurship.

Mark-Anthony, I know Dr. McCoy, you are the director of entrepreneurship in Central.

We'll come back to talk to you about that, but is there sustainable support state side for students and professionals who desire to go straight into entrepreneurship?

- That's a great question.

I'm the Mayor Pro Temp of the nation's 75th largest city.

We have one of the highest per capita PhD rates in the country.

We're known as a startup capital of the south, particularly in the tech industry so I'm very proud of the ecosystem and Dr. McCoy participates in it rather robustly here in Durham.

I'm very proud of the ecosystem we've created here in Durham to promote that, to inspire it, and to support it.

There's a lot of us that are still locked into that traditional mode of success, going to those traditional institutions.

It's almost cliche to hear people talking about how much money they spent on a degree they're not using or how much money the company had to spend on training them to actually do the job that they were hired for and looking for relevance with their degree.

If I can say one thing about this, this whole structural thing very quickly, if you understand the difference between starting to save for retirement at 25 as opposed to 55, and if you see that there are implications and differences in that, then you understand the structural impediments that that Black and brown folk have faced in this country.

We're getting into the market now and being allowed access, but there were legal restrictions against us starting to save so to speak when we were 25, and now that we're 55 in the nation, folk want us to get in so a lot of these families, when they send their kids to school, it's hard enough to support your household on the job you have, and now to leave that job and to have to start another household, because junior.

or daughters away at school and you are already struggling to support that one household.

It's a great challenge.

So I, again, I just wanna stress, and if folk in Washington are watching, we need to see debt relief and student success as a matter of national security.

- Dr. McKoy hearing his answer, what would you add to describe the landscape of entrepreneurship in North Carolina?

- Well, certainly, North Carolina is a state that's been growing by leaps and bounds.

We're almost 11 million people right now.

And so folks come here because they love the climate.

They love the, they do love the institution.

I mean, I think that's a part of what attracts them here because they do have talent.

And so I think that there's certainly the thing to think about is entrepreneurship is a part of the overall ecosystem.

'Cause it's the entrepreneurs who create the jobs, and we definitely need to make sure that, I mean we have entrepreneurs that look like us, black entrepreneurs, people of color that start jobs.

Or we have to start companies, we have to figure out how do we make sure they have the resources to grow those companies?

And again, this is all tied in together because it's about access to capital.

Black folks don't have the same kind of access to friends and family capital that the white community has.

And so all these things work together.

And so part of what we need to make sure we're doing as a state is embracing this idea of how do we ensure that we folks are getting a fair shake at this?

The last thing I say about that is that one of the things that we see with every recession is we see a huge uptick of entrepreneurial activity, particularly in black communities, because the cliche is true that we tend to be the last hired, first fired.

And so we have to make sure that we're creating an ecosystem that works for everybody.

And so that's gonna mean people with skills.

That's gonna mean people with two year degrees, four year degrees, entrepreneurs, because that's how the economy works and how it grows.

- Couple minutes left here.

Last question to you, Maurice.

As you work to fight for equitable treatment of employees among employers, what's your outlook on the next few years as it pertains to advanced roles for the black community?

- I am really optimistic.

I think there are a number of forces at work that make the opportunities for black talent as great as they've ever been.

I think one is the fact that you've got a bunch of unfilled jobs, as I mentioned, 11 million.

And so that has forced employers to really be innovative in how they're sourcing talent.

I think you also look, we are in a moment right now.

The recession, the pandemic, the killing in particular of Mr. George Floyd, the murder now two years ago, has really, really moved people to see more clearly that we've got work to do to make this truly a land of opportunity and a more perfect union.

And I think people understand that that means that we've gotta make sure we get black talent off the sideline and into positions where they can make the contributions that are commensurate to their skills and attitudes and aptitudes.

So in a word, optimistic.

- Well, the future looks bright and I'm excited for what's to come for our students and our black and brown community as far as the workforce goes, especially with those 11 million jobs left to fill.

Thank you gentlemen, for this conversation.

Definitely doesn't stop today.

We need to continue enforcing and encouraging our community to go out there, find those jobs, and advocate for themselves.

But thank you for the work that you do.

- Thanks for having us.

- Thanks.

Thanks to all.

- I wanna thank today's guest for joining us.

We invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any times on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenya Thompson.

Thanks for watching.

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