Just ahead on American Black Journal.

Our series on the black church in Detroit is gonna take a look at the succession process for pastors.

We're gonna hear how various denominations select new leadership.

Plus, I'm gonna talk with the Reverend Dr. Jim Holley, who's passing the baton after 50 years at the helm of the historic Little Rock Baptist Church.

Stay right there.

We're gonna get started with American Black Journal right now.

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Thank you.

(upbeat music) Welcome to American Black Journal.

I'm Stephen Henderson.

We're continuing our year-long series on the black church in Detroit, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary, and with the Charles H. Wright Museum of African-American history.

Today, we're looking at pastoral succession in the black church.

There is an awful lot that goes into the preparation and process of selecting new leadership.

And as more senior pastors step away, you've got to have a new generation that's ready to carry the mantle.

We turned to the seminary's Dr. Tony Henderson, for a lesson on succession planning in the black church.

Producer, Marcus Brene has the story.

Succession should be planned.

It should be discussed.

It should be approved by the congregation in a Free Church set up, in a Connectional church, or Creedal church, as they call them that are governed by creeds and bishops and the Catholic, Episcopalian, and Black Methodist traditions.

That's automatically taken care of as a part of the responsibilities of the elected and consecrated bishops.

In your Pentecostal and Apostolic it will vary per denomination as to what their polity, which is the way they do business, will allow.

The ideal situation would be that the pastor decides after being pastor of the church for the last 40 years, and he's now 72 or 77, is to announce to the board, the administrative board, his intent to retire.

If you're black and Baptist, basically Baptist in the sense of National Baptist, Progressive National Baptist, then if the pastor dies while in office, you can go through a period of mourning, and it'll differ from congregation to congregation.

A pool pit committee made up of deacons and trustees and other folk will come together.

Issue a call announcement to let pastors and preachers know that in the aftermath of their pastor's death, that they are now taking resumes.

So, people who are interested will submit a resume 'cause they'll supply the address to the church, they'll even supply the qualifications one must meet to be passed, so the educational qualifications, the ordination qualifications to be pastor.

Death isn't the only reason that succession comes into play, but in the Black Baptist and Free Church tradition it's the normal way that succession comes into play, has come into play over the last couple of hundred years.

If a pastor retires and he, or she may be bestowed the title of Pastor Emeritus, they may not.

In either case whether they are or not, the church still calls together a committee.

And most times, if the pastor's retiring and the church knows well in advance, they will pull a search committee together, a transition team as some congregations call them, and then they'll go through and they'll invite the candidates in to preach.

For your black churches that are not Baptist and Free, for example, your African Methodist Episcopal Church, your African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, your Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, and some other Wesleyan congregations that are governed by creeds and bishops.

The bishop will name the successor.

If it's in the Apostolic and Pentecostal tradition, a succession looks differently.

While it shares these features that I've talked about, sometimes these pastors, especially if they are bishops, they pick their successor.

And the congregation ratifies.

(upbeat gospel music) That was the case when the late Bishop David Ellis died back in 1996 here in Detroit.

Elder Charles Ellis, his son, was made pastor of Greater Grace, and within a few months based on their denominational politics, which is rooted in the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, he was made a district elder, and then eventually he was made a bishop.

The longer our church or congregation goes without a central spiritual leader, or a head, even if that's a symbolic head, the greater the possibility that the congregation will begin to scatter.

According to scripture, they will begin to look among the quote unquote "elders" to find a replacement.

So, whether you are Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Apostolic, Pentecostal, or Non-Denominational, there ought to be some type of succession plan.

And even though succession is a recent term that has gotten applied to the process, some type of process has been in use historically for years.

The goal of the successor should be to first of all, learn the lay of the land, and where there is no relationship, there will be no ministry.

And you get the relationship by appearing to be friendly.

By greeting people when you see them, by being open-minded, and let more open-minded and less judgmental.

The pastor has to remember the people do to.

That the people don't belong to the pastor, people belong to God.

The pastor belongs to God, and if they respect each other and learn to love each other, they could be together a pretty good while.

So, the succession process is underway at Detroit's historic Little Rock Baptist Church.

Reverend Dr. Jim Holley is retiring at the end of this year after five decades of leading that church.

I spoke with Reverend Holley about his accomplishments, and his hopes for the future of Little Rock.

Reverend Dr. Jim Holley, it is always great to see you, but especially, I'm really grateful that you could join us here on American Black Journal.

I'm so honored just to be with you anytime.

And I thank you- (Stephen laughing drowns out Reverend Holley) So, let's start with this idea of you retiring at the end of this year after 50 years at Little Rock Baptist church.

Talk to me about why now is the right time for that.

You know, I have so many people that ask that question.

I'm not sure I got the same answer.

But I think that really the thing of it is that in my spirit I just felt like it's the time.

I'm in my fifth generation, and sometimes you just feel, Stephen, that you don't fit.

You know, you gotta be relevant.

There's a new generation.

This whole thing in terms of post COVID, you gotta be concerned about that.

But more than anything else that I want to be walk, I don't want to be carried out.

And God has afforded me the opportunity to do just that.

So, I'm just so grateful to be able to- 50 years is a long time, a long time, but I just want you to know that I'm fine with it.

We found a new person to take my place.

I'm looking forward to the transition, working with him and his family.

It's a tremendous opportunity to be able to participate in the future while I'm here in the present.

Yeah.

Yeah, so take me back to 50 years ago, when you became the pastor of Little Rock Baptist, what was that like?

And talk about how you have changed that church.

I mean, just dramatically over those five decades.

Set in 1972, it's like 40 members or so on the East Side.

I was just so grateful, and it was such a wonderful opportunity.

It could have been three members and I'd been happy because when you come out of school, and you wait for an assignment from God, and so many of the assignments passed me up until this assignment came and I'm grateful for it because I got to pastor the most beautiful people in the world, those who had gone on before me to glory, and those that are with me right now.

And I'm very grateful because I realize that I didn't get this far by myself.

The people of the church, so many friends in the city of Detroit that's been with us.

So, it's been a wonderful journey, it was a very spiritual journey, but more than anything else, I just feel like from the time I began to where we are right now, if you're not careful, Stephen, you'll fill the church and stay too long, and empty the church.

I don't want to empty the church.

(Stephen laughing) Does that make it any sense?

(laughing) Yeah, no, it does.

I mean, that's really incredible.

I don't think I knew that, that you only had 40 members of the church back then.

What's the population of the congregation now?

A bragging number, it's about 1500.

Wow.

Wow.

And it's not just the growth in the congregation that's taking place over the 50 years.

I mean, Little Rock is much more now than just a church.

I mean, it's an enterprise right here in the center of Detroit.

And I'm very fortunate and I thank you for even mentioning it.

As you know, we're building a 66 senior citizen unit right across the street so I'll be involved in that for the next year and a half.

But I think you're right.

It's a great legacy that we're able to lead.

And I love so much about the people that walk up to me that I did speeches at their graduation.

I baptized them.

I married them.

They still married.

(both laughing) They still saved.

So, when you look over your life and see where God has brought you and where you are, you do feel like that you made a mark.

And that's what I really am grateful for.

Yeah.

So, I want to talk a little about what it has been like to be a pastor for the last year and a half during the pandemic, but also what is like to have been a pastor here in Detroit over that period of time?

Which I think is really different than lots of other places.

What's going on in your church right now because of COVID-19?

Well, we've been operating for a year and a half now.

Following the protocol, making sure we're safe, trying to make sure that we cover everything according to the governor, but we paid off the mortgage on this year and a half.

I've done everything I can to get the new administration ready to go.

They just walk in and don't have to worry about the things I had to worry about when I came here 50 years ago.

But the beautiful thing about it is is that the people that I've had, and God has given me Stephen, they follow leadership.

I know I'm not the best preacher in the world, but you can't out pastor me, you know what I mean?

That's where- I majored in pastoring.

And so I'm making sure I talk to my members, 50 to 80 of them each week.

We have help to do that, to make sure everybody is okay.

All of our senior citizens okay.

Our children okay.

We having a big fun day at the end of the month for all of our children.

We already given a lot of things to our adults, from me to remember me by.

I just wanna say that we feel like even with the COVID we've been churching right along.

And I hope that you understand what I'm trying to say.

We've been churching right along.

Nothing has changed obviously.

But I think for the most part, my people feel like we're still together.

I lost about 30 members to COVID-19.

Wow.

I couldn't go to the families, couldn't be able to talk to them.

Wow.

I did everything I can to let them know how much I love them.

Then I had a big celebration of life when I had a chance to celebrate all those had died with COVID.

And I think they appreciated that because people want to be remembered.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I know that over the years, one of the things you've really been focused on is opening up opportunities for African-Americans in business.

I know that is a real passion of yours, and you've done a lot of different things in Detroit over that time, just to open doors, just to provide chances for people.

One of the things I'm really worried about out of the pandemic is what happens to those kinds of opportunities.

We know that crisis threatens us in different ways than it does other people.

So, I'm really curious what you make of what opportunities we'll have now, and whether they might look really different than what we had before the pandemic.

There's no doubt about it that it's gonna be different.

There's no doubt about it.

I think if we missed that message, we will be in trouble.

But I think these young people, when I look at the young people in my church, they remember the things I said to them.

They know that we talk about salvation.

We talk about education.

We talk about economics.

That's been my theme, salvation, education and economics.

I think that we've left this message with them that has resonated with them.

And that even after I leave as pastor, I'm openin' up an office in Midtown, on Mark and Milwaukee and with my own business, my consulting business, my advertising business and my international ministry.

So I'm showing them, even at my age, there are all kinds of possibilities.

And so again, I think that the young people will be fine.

That's the reason why I feel like I need to step aside because it's a new age coming in.

And I don't want to be in the way, but I want to make sure anything I can do to help them to get to where they want to go.

And that's where we're in.

I think you'll be very happy in about another month.

I'm gonna announce something that maybe about $300,000 plus where I will be able to help people with entrepreneurship.

I think you'll be happy about that.

I'll make sure you the first place person who know it.

(Stephen laughing) I tell you, you don't know how many people follow you, and how many people listen to you, and how much you help to encourage all of us.

So, I'm just saying to you is that this ain't over until God says it's over.

Yeah.

(laughing) Right, right.

So, let's talk about succession, and not just your own succession, but succession in the black church, which looks a little different than it does other places.

There are some things you've gotta think about and consider.

Tell me where you started.

Where did you start that process of saying, "Who is the next person to lead this congregation?"

Good question.

One of the things that I did.

I want to make sure that I wasn't involved in whose gonna be the person come after me.

The thing about it is if the person doesn't make it or not, I don't want to be at fault.

Everyone say I picked the person.

They picked them.

And out of 40 some people, we found someone out of Mississippi.

A young family man, educated, well-trained.

I have never met him but just once.

I'm so excited about working with him, and transition.

Give him everything that I got and that he can use, and try to help him out.

I think that's what we all have to do.

I think one of the things, a lot of preachers make a mistake on, you stay too long.

You just stay too long.

And you've gotta be able to get these young people, to really give them the resources to go and move further.

And not worry about you as much as it is about them.

And it'll worked if you die.

You can't make it personal.

It has to be the church.

It's gotta be the community and you can't get yourself be in the way.

Am I making any sense to you?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's interesting that you guys conducted a national search for this replacement.

You've chosen somebody from someplace else.

You're creating a new Detroiter in some ways.

Right.

I think that's a very interesting dimension of this.

And I'm very grateful and thankful.

I really feel spiritual about it, that it's best that God is involved in this and that the young family that's coming is excited about it.

I'm excited about it.

The church is excited about it.

But obviously you got mixed feelings because you've been here for 50 some years, you know?

But nevertheless, I think what makes me with joy, Stephen, isn't that I'm not through.

It's not like I'm going off in the sunset.

I'm still working.

I know where I'm going.

And I feel good about where I'm going, and what I've already have done.

Yeah, yeah.

What's the biggest challenge that you think the new pastor of Little Rock is gonna face?

Look man, you're so good.

My goodness.

(Stephen laughing) That's an excellent question.

The big problem is always gonna be how you maintain what you got.

Mhm hmm.

As well as the challenge of getting new members.

That's what we got to work out.

And it's part of my responsibility to make sure my people understand that you got to give this guy, this family a chance as you gave me 50 some years ago.

And I know people talking about, some people say, "Well, I'm gonna leave if you leave."

But then that means I didn't do the job that I should have done with you.

Because it's not about me.

It's about the Lord.

Yeah.

So, I feel like my job in this transition is to help him to maintain what we've got, and give him the opportunity to build the new people that you draw to come in.

Yeah.

That's gonna be the challenge.

What about the city?

I mean, you're such an involved figure in Detroit in many different ways.

What's your assessment of where we are as the city of Detroit, as Detroiters, as you kind of step away from some of those roles?

That's a good question.

I'm very optimistic.

I really am.

You know I'm involved in the police board.

I'm working so hard to make sure we get the city under control with crime.

I want to be involved in that and I don't want nothing to change.

If anything I can do to help, I'm gonna be here to do it.

When you invest so much in something, you want to make sure that the investment has value.

And so I'm not stepping away from the city.

I'm just stepping away from being pastor at historic Little Rock Baptist Church.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, Reverend Dr. Jim Holley, as I said, it's always great to talk with you, but congratulations on five decades over there at Little Rock and your upcoming retirement.

We're gonna miss you.

But as you say, you're not completely going away, you will still be around, and I'm sure we'll have you back on American Black Journal.

Thank you for this, opportunity.

I appreciate you so.

Finally, we at American Black Journal and Detroit Public Television, want to extend our condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Colin Powell.

We have lost another African-American trailblazer whose accomplishments are gonna live on forever in the history books.

He was the first African-American U.S. Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

A four-star general, Powell received the presidential Medal of Freedom twice during his distinguished career.

He was a dedicated public servant who earned respect from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

We want to thank Powell for his service to the United States and for the legacy he leaves behind.

That is gonna do it for us this week.

Thanks for watching.

You can always find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org.

And you can keep up with us on Facebook and on Twitter.

We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) FEMALE NARRATOR: From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

MALE NARRATOR: Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

FEMALE NARRATOR: The DTE foundation proudly supports 50 years of American Black Journal in covering African-American history, culture and politics.

The DTE foundation and American Black Journal partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

MALE NARRATOR: Also brought to you by AAA, Nissan FoundatioN, Impact at Home, UAW Solidarity Forever, and viewers like you.