Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey education Association.

♪ David: Welcome to "Chat Box," I am David Cruz.

New year, New Jersey.

Welcome to 2025 and all the stuff new and controversial from how we get around to how we view our neighbors.

We will talk immigration and the promise of the new administration to target the undocumented, including here in New Jersey.

We begin today with week 1 of congestion pricing.

What is working, what is not and what is ahead in our endless efforts to just get around.

We are joined by the duo of Colleen Wilson and Larry Higgs.

Colleen, Larry, happy new year.

Good to see you both.

Let's start with the judge's decision last week -- I feel like there is a decision and a judge's ruling every week.

Larry, what was the most recent ruling Friday?

Larry: That was interesting because the judge deliberated for four hours for roughly an hour's worth of argument from both sides.

He came back from a well researched decision.

It was basically a slam for the MTA.

Its land New Jersey's arguments that there would be irrefutable harm done to the residents of Bergen County from excess traffic and pollution if congestion pricing were allowed to start.

What the judge said was according to standards you cannot talk about the possibility of irrefutable harm, you have to document it.

That was one of the major flaws he saw with New Jersey's case.

He is a wise judge.

He had already contacted the third Court of Appeals and tell them to expect an appeal to becoming.

The attorney for New Jersey vowed to do that.

However, he did not grant a five-day stay for the start of congestion pricing.

The saga continues on.

David: So, here we are a few days into the new scheme, including a snow day on Monday.

What have we seen as far as an impact?

Colleen: We have been talking to commuters, business owners, etc.

A lot of excitement for the people who support congestion pricing.

Even some who did not support congestion pricing at first but are seeing significantly reduced times in the Lincoln Tunnel and the Holland tunnel traffic.

Apparently traffic has gone down significantly, allowing traffic to flow much more freely.

I have heard from some people that there has been a little bit of an uptick in commuters on the path.

And some of those stations around there.

Some people in Morristown told our paper they have not seen a lot of increases.

Buses are seeing more people but getting through much quicker.

They are beating timetables for when they get to the port authority because the timetables were based on old traffic data.

Already in a few days they are seeing significant improvements to the flow of traffic.

David: Larry, I have been hearing that, too.

NJ Spotlight News has been reporting that, as well.

Is it one of those things where the first day everyone is, "Oh," and starting week 2, it will be the same?

It would strike me as wild is automatically everything was great.

Larry: That is the thing, you will need the data for a consistent period of time.

Following the traffic reports in the morning, which is something I do, so far we have seen reduced times.

They would normally be a 30 minute wait at the Lincoln or the Holland and it is now down to 810-415 -- a 10-415-minute wait.

There are folks on social media reporting -- that was one guy who filmed himself behind the wheel and was about to start a rant on congestion pricing and then realized I am over the bridge faster than I would have been.

This is really good.

Maybe it is worth the $9.

David: No time for a rant.

I have to go.

The governor was playing it close to the vest as far as next moves.

Let's hear what he had to say.

Gov.

Murphy: We are reviewing all of our options.

I think it is outrageous this was able to go ahead with the state of acknowledgment from the judge that the Federal Highway Administration had not done all their work and there is a clock ticking for the Federal Highway Administration to respond to the judge's request -- I'm not sure remediation is the right word -- but respond to deficiencies with the program.

I am incredibly unhappy.

David: P is incredibly unhappy but what are his options?

What can they do next?

Is this going to the U.S. Supreme Court?

Colleen: Sure.

It would not be the first Supreme Court case between New York and New Jersey, right?

There are other court cases that are in the process right now.

I have seen 8, 9, 10 lawsuits in the works.

There is a lot of legal recourse that still has to be played out.

Frankly I think what a lot of people are wondering from Governor Murphy is why he did not settle with New York before this court case even got to this point.

There was an opportunity for that.

According to Governor Hochul of New York, they were generous offers made.

There is not much explanation from the governor about what he left on the table for New Jersey that could have squashed this from the beginning and helped New Jersey at New Jersey commuters who are on public transportation and hoping to have smooth commutes there but will need more robust options.

David: So, are negotiations on a settlement ongoing?

When we talk to the governor this week he was getting some heat about, as Colleen said, what the state might have left on the table.

He did not say what it was.

He said there was a lot of exaggeration going on.

I heard $500 million that would have gone to projects in New Jersey, including New Jersey transit.

Are they still talking?

Larry: That is the problem.

Nobody is saying nothing.

Governor Hochul's office is not saying anything, Governor Murphy's office is not saying anything.

The $500 million figure you mentioned was mentioned by Governor Hochul and that was for the port authority project funded by toll money.

It cuts to their were advocates who protested outside the courthouse on Friday and they were basically calling on Murphy to disclose what was on the table, how much would have come to NJ transit.

They are basically saying some of that money could have made NJ transit commuters' lives easier.

In the original assessment there was nothing put on the table for New Jersey at all.

It was -- the estimates were less that 1% with the amount of people who migrate to NJ transit.

There was no revenue-sharing mentioned.

There was no money mentioned for Bergen County.

This is the interesting thing as far as chicken and egg -- weather have been mitigation money offered without this lawsuit?

In the summer, the MTA came back and said, you know what?

Maybe we can find $9.8 million for you, in the meantime as New Jersey's lawsuit pointed out, the Bronx was allocated 71 times the amount of money.

The assessments at both the Bronx and Bergen County would see the same amount, if not more, access traffic diverging.

David: Meanwhile, Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop, who is running for governor, is talking about a reverse congestion pricing plan.

What does that even mean, Colleen?

Colleen: That is a good question.

His proposal is all of three sentences so we definitely want to hear more about that but the way it is phrased is to toll people coming from New York into New Jersey.

I'm not sure you could get away with that.

Congestion pricing is narrowly scoped and targeting a specific zone and has high-volumes of traffic.

Perhaps Jersey City could make a case for something like that.

Perhaps that is something they are looking to explore.

Just a blanket toll statewide, I am not sure how far that could go.

David: We had the Bergen County executive on this week.

He is calling for a new push for funding for light rail expansion to make it possible for Bergen commuters.

It has been a quarter-century of no B in the HBLR.

You mentioned the status of the environmental impact study needed before we can even start talking about this again.

Larry: Right.

We are supposed to be at the halfway point of that.

August 2023, the FDA came back and said because the project changed, they said they did not want it so it sent NJ transit back to the drawing board.

They had to come back and do some more environmental work on the impact statement.

Some of that included updating information, where the storm water would go and work parking would go for the light rail.

NJ Transit was sent back to the drawing board.

The two-year.

Would come up and they would have to see what was changed.

The big fight is for funding because it is $1.28 billion.

David: The legislature and the federal government has shown no interest in finding anything like that.

Let's switch to New Jersey transit.

New leadership starting later this month.

Before we talk about his replacement, let's talk about Kevin's legacy.

Is it the braking system and that is that?

Colleen: It is not just that.

One of his biggest contributions to New Jersey Transit -- there are several -- is the explosion of construction and the capital program.

He brought billions' worth of dollars to New Jersey Transit system across the network.

Every segment did see improvement.

A crammed timeline for them.

Buses improved in Hudson County in large part because they took over some routes.

Several private companies abandoned service.

The access link has a new pilot program that is doing rideshare services for people to supplement the service.

David: So some stuff.

Colleen: There is a lot of stuff that happened.

Anyone can criticize and there are criticisms to be made but there were several and many successes.

David: Larry, 30 seconds on his successor, Mr. fix-it.

Larry: He is Mr. get it done because he got the Gateway program into substantial construction before the end of the year.

The biggest accomplishment was getting that $6.8 billion funding grant agreement which made up a big chunk of the tunnel project and that is a big accomplishment right there because it is the largest one in history.

He can hang the old George W. Bush "Mission Accomplished" when he walks into NJ Transit.

David: Which will be a the Gateway building.

Colleen Wilson, Larry Higgs, happy travels to you both.

We are a couple of weeks away from a new administration in Washington.

Immigrants, documented and otherwise, are expressing concern over promises of mass deportations from the Trump Administration.

Already we saw a house of vote on the Laken Riley Bill, which makes it easier to deport people guilty of even minor offenses.

Let's use that as a jumping off point for our next guest.

Welcome to the show.

>> Thank you for the invitation.

David: Let's start with this Laken Riley bill.

She was a young woman who was killed by a guy who had previously been arrested on shoplifting charges and released.

This bill purports to address that loophole but critics say it goes way beyond that.

Can we start by talking about that bill.

>> The Laken Riley act is an attempt for mass deportations.

It is going to target Black and Brown communities.

Donald Trump has vilified immigrants but it is unconscionable for officials to greenlight these policies.

All of us are entitled to due process just like everyone living in this country.

David: Explain how the bill restricts those rights.

Nedia: It would eliminate due process -- effectively eliminate due process for folks who committed small crimes and they would not have to be charged, just convicted with these minor nonviolent crimes.

As a result these folks could be indefinitely detained, which would lead to family separation and allows us to swell detention centers.

We have detention centers here in New Jersey, there are a lot of concerns because Trump has promised mass deportations.

This is an effort to aid the process along.

David: We saw two members of Congress from New Jersey.

We should say first of all that all the members of the New Jersey delegation who voted on this bill voted no, but there were two members of our current delegation, Mikie Sherrill and Josh Gottheimer, both of whom are running for governor, who were unavailable for votes this week.

Mikie Sherrill said she would have voted against the bill and Josh Gottheimer said he would have voted for the bill.

A couple of things -- number 1, they should be making those votes.

This is a pretty big vote, no?

Nedia: It is a really big vote.

Immigrants are our neighbors and coworkers.

It is a beautiful immigrant state.

We are deeply concerned.

As you saw yesterday, Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill did come out and say she would have voted against the Laken Riley Act.

Josh Gottheimer said otherwise.

With the increase in xenophobic sentiment being spewed, is even a higher risk people would be arrested for a crime they did not commit.

Going to work or school they might be separated from loved ones forever.

New Jersey has a chance to be on the front line to defend against mass deportation.

It is incredibly important we have leaders taking action and when the votes are up they are voting with their values.

David: Hidden in that diplomatic statement is Josh Gottheimer is not where most of New Jersey is on this issue, is that safe and fair to say?

Nedia:.

Deeply concerning.

Congressman Josh Gottheimer, all of the people -- low income, Black, Brown, immigrant communities already suffer from disproportionate -- this further adds to the burden.

Now this started have to step in and protect families all over the country.

David: As we come to the end of the Biden administration, I think of the first days of the Biden administration when he made this big show of how he would not only help immigrants in the country but was going to bring some real closure to the issue of immigration reform.

As he gets ready to exit office four years later, Nedia, what can we say about the Biden administration's efforts toward helping immigrants and bringing some people together on the issue of immigration reform?

Nedia: The focus and the work that organizations were attempting to do in the final days of the Biden organization has put pressure to make sure we were expanding relief for folks.

It was a massive missed opportunity when we had these threats -- we are getting ready for Trump 2.0 and that opportunity was sorely missed.

We have always known it is the responsibility upon our own community to defend ourselves and that is the work we are doing.

Starting next week we will be launching -- going out into the streets and talking to people about what their rights are as immigrants.

We must protect each other and keep each other safe and that is the work we are committed to doing.

We will be having canvassers in the streets every week talking to residents about what their rights are.

David: What are you hearing from the people you serve in terms of whether actual fears are?

I think that most people who don't have to deal with the issue of their immigration status cannot really appreciate what it is to one day feel like everything is great, and then literally the next day you have to recede into the shadows, because that is a real fear that people have, no?

Nedia: It is a real fear that people have.

We often talk about undocumented families and we box everyone together.

Really most often what you see are mixed status families.

Grandma is undocumented and the daughter has DACA and the child is a U.S. citizen.

We think about family separation only happening at the border or only happening to families that are wholly undocumented.

Families are diverse and complicated.

That is true for immigrant families, as well.

I think it is incredibly important -- one of the things I had been so impressed by, we have meetings every single day of the week.

Our office is -- has Latino and Black immigrants and folks have committed to not going back into the shadows, to stand up and fight.

We have folks eager to learn about their rights at school, when they are picking up their children, at work, at home, at their place of business if they are business owners.

We have gotten contacts from schools and educators on how they can protect their student'' rights to an education.

We are doing legal clinics but if folks are still eligible for protection that they are signing up for that protection.

We are committed to making sure that folks know what their rights are, feel empowered and they are asking for the protections they are entitled to.

David: I get the feeling very much like the incarceration industry is preparing for some boom years.

These are mostly private providers, including in New Jersey.

That is really happening right now.

Nedia: Yes.

There are conversations to potentially open up a hall in Newark that would increase the number of beds.

With the growth of Delaney Hall and detention centers in Trenton and Elizabeth, it could increase the number of detention beds we have in our state, more than the first Trump Administration.

It is incredibly important that more than ever we are passing legislation like that in the contrast act to measure law enforcement cannot support ICE in their deportation efforts and our religious institutions are protected.

It is important we are passing things like the heat standard.

There is no world our federal government is interested in protecting Black and Brown workers out in the sun every day.

It is up to our state to say we are a proud state of immigrants.

David: It feels very much like a crossroads for this issue and for 10 million people who are in this country, making it go every day.

Nedia Morsy is the deputy director of make the road New Jersey.

We will continue following this and thank you for coming on with us.

Nedia: Thank you.

David: Finally today we note with sadness the passing of the mother of our senior producer.

The Jersey City native and longtime resident taught English at Hillside high school over a 30-year career were her impact on the lives of thousands of students was profound.

Former colleagues and students remembered her as a passionate, selfless professional who helped change many lives.

Teachers rarely get the credit they deserve for the important work they do every day but we remember her contributions in the classroom and in her community.

We send our love and sympathies to Jen, her siblings and everyone whose lives she touched.

That is "Chat Box."

I am David Cruz.

Thank you for watching.

Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey education Association, making public schools great for every child.

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