>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made at the Susan B Anthony National Museum and House, which has new leadership for years on this program.

You've heard Deborah Hughes talking about the legacy of Susan B Anthony, discussing interesting details of her life and advocacy.

Hughes retired last month, passing the torch to Allison Hinman, and they're both here this hour.

This year's theme for the museum and its upcoming event is get on with the work.

That's a reference to a famous statement made by Susan B Anthony.

Here's some of the context.

Anthony's fuller statement was.

When I'm gone, pass by and get on with the work.

A directive to her fellow travelers not to mourn her passing too long, but to get on with the work of women's rights and equality.

Susan B Anthony understood in her lifetime that no individual was going to be bigger than an entire movement for justice.

So that inspires this question what might Susan B Anthony think the work is in 2026?

The National Museum and House is for all people to learn and find inspiration.

It is not expressly political.

And yet, Susan B Anthony's name is often invoked in very political ways these days in regards to individual rights and freedom.

Women in the workplace, even abortion and reproductive health.

And it can be controversial.

There's a lot to talk about, and we're glad to have both the past CEO and the new CEO, Deborah Hughes, retired now president and CEO of The National, Susan B Anthony Museum and House.

Welcome.

It's nice to see you in this new retired role.

Are you are you embracing the retirement life?

>> I'm loving the retirement loving.

>> It's nice to see you.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Allison Hinman is the president and CEO of the National Susan B Anthony Museum and House.

And this is the first of, I hope, many conversations.

Welcome to you.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> So we're going to talk about a lot here.

We do want our listeners to know that it is, as always in the winter.

It's a it's a big season for the Susan B Anthony Museum and House.

They've got an event coming up on February 11th, 6 p.m.

dinner at the Joseph, a Floriana, Rochester Riverside Convention Center.

and that's always a big one.

Alison, what do you want people to know about that event coming up here?

>> Well, we hope that Rochester will turn up for the event.

It's a wonderful opportunity for us to celebrate Susan B Anthony's life and legacy, but also to share what the museum's been up to and to thank the Rochester community for all of their support.

>> tickets available now.

>> Tickets are available now.

>> What's the website?

>> Susan b.

>> Org Susan B. Anthony and WXXI is a media sponsor.

We found this out late last night.

It's not why we booked this program, but it is something that listeners should probably know that.

So we are a media sponsor and we'll talk more about that event coming up here.

but let me kind of just start with this question of the work here.

How did I do on the history of the Susan, is that right?

>> That's exactly right.

>> I mean, she understood that as much as she was such an important figure that no person should be bigger than a movement.

And certainly there are moments where it seems that, you know, you think about Martin Luther King, think about Susan B Anthony.

And it's easy to think, how is this movement going to be without this person?

But to you?

What does that quote mean?

Deborah?

What stands out to you from that sentiment?

From her?

>> Well, people often think of Susan B Anthony as an icon.

She and Queen Victoria were the two best known women around the world.

In 1900.

>> That is an amazing.

>> Thing to think.

It is an amazing thing to think about.

but she used that role.

It wasn't about her.

It wasn't about her ego, which is how often people perceive it.

she understood more than anyone.

She's one of the first people to say that press was critical to a movement.

So she said, get press when you can, get good press if you can, but keep them talking.

And so Susan B Anthony knew for herself if she could keep the press talking about human rights and the issues that were important to her, that stirring people up was a part of keeping the movement in front of people and keeping them engaged.

So I think that's such a classic statement of Susan B. Anthony, the organizer of, you know, don't don't be don't let it be about me.

Get on with the work.

>> How do you see it?

>> Well, one of the things I always love to share, especially when we're working with school groups, is that she understood that the movement was bigger than her, and she understood she was the face of the movement, but also that it wouldn't happen without all the other people making a contribution.

And she believed that no matter how small the contribution, if that's all someone could give to a cause that they care about, that that is still significant.

>> Well, I do wonder with this theme of get on with the work, what that looks like in 2026.

And I'm going to start with Deborah on this one, because I, I wonder if if you now in your retirement, I mean, like, is it going to be guns blazing Deborah Hughes or do you feel still circumspect in talking?

Because over the years when you and I have talked about some hot issues in the news, one of my observations on your leadership is that you understood that politics can inflect just about anything, but this is not an inherently political operation.

This is something that is for all people, no matter your background, no matter your political belief.

This is about education.

This is about history.

It's about local history.

It's about certainly the effect on this country.

And I thought you did a pretty remarkable job at talking about these sensitive things, especially when things like the Susan B Anthony list comes up, which is not tied to you.

And people see that and they don't know.

So now that you're in retirement, how do you look at your tenure?

And do you feel like politics pulls everything in?

And do you feel that it's difficult not for things to become political?

>> you know, we've talked about how Susan B Anthony was really nonpartisan.

she, she believed that parties could engage you and support you and betray you and let you down, and that if you aligned yourself to a political party, it didn't make good policy.

and I'm still aligned with that idea that the idea is we have to figure out how to have a government where we can figure out good policies.

And that's not a partisan activity.

I am eager to be able to have opinions and to say things that I might be incorrect about and have people not worry that that's going to somehow be damaging to the organization that I'm a part of.

but in terms of Partizan politics, I think that's not where I am.

I'm much more about let's get on with the business of doing good government, electing people who care about respecting the Constitution, respecting our community and choosing them not based on where they align themselves.

>> Good ideas can come from any corner, right?

>> Well, in any great policy is going to have unintended consequences.

And we have that's one of the things we haven't always been good at.

We can adopt a great policy, but we're going to have to keep looking at it and saying, okay, well it caused this problem.

We need to back off or we need to change or we need to adjust.

We don't win just because we pass the idea.

We have to keep making it better.

>> This is something that the George Washington and perhaps Susan B Anthony have in common, that they had suspicion of just overtly tying one's identity just to a political party, no matter what that party was doing or not doing.

Washington wrote about that when his presidency was ending.

Susan B Anthony, as you say, talked about the danger of just being Partizan.

And maybe that frees you up a little when you're the CEO and the president of us to say, look, we're going to have ideas, but we're not inherently Partizan because Susan B Anthony wasn't Partizan that kind of free you up a little bit?

>> I think so I mean, I think that the the fascinating thing for me in all the years that the Anthony Museum is that she just continues to be so relevant and she's relevant because she was immersed in a world and a time like ours.

you know, when I think about the questions people have asked when we've done speaking engagements, you know, it's changed this year because people are really asking for where do we find the hope and the way people think about the suffrage movement?

is kind of like cheerleaders or something.

And they don't think about Susan B Anthony, the abolitionists who dealt with the Dred Scott decision.

They don't think about a person who had to deal with Plessy versus Ferguson and the Supreme Court taking us backwards.

they and she had to deal with, you know, she saw progress and she saw huge blocks and and major national changes that had to be frightening.

>> Well, you had this really, I thought lovely conversation with my colleague Beth Adams back when you announced that you would be retiring.

And I would encourage all of our listeners find that list.

It's so good.

Beth is so good.

And you said something in that interview that I thought was really relevant to this moment, because if people are reaching out to the museum and house saying, you know, where do we find hope?

That's what a lot of Americans are feeling no matter what.

Again, no matter what side of the political aisle you're on, no matter who you are and what your background is, there's a lot of people feeling angst about the future and feeling a very negative moment, being pulled in a lot of directions.

And I don't want to misquote you, but I think essentially what you said to Beth is that if Susan B Anthony could find hope during her lifetime of some of the really, really hard setbacks for civil rights, for the rights of women, for the future of this country, that it's hard to sit here in 2026 and just give up because she was a hopeful person.

She was a realistic person, but she had every reason to feel defeated many times in her lifetime and career.

Yeah.

>> Correct?

Correct.

That you know, we get to the Gilded Age here.

Susan B Anthony literally traveling between New York City where she's talking to socialites and doing fundraising for the cause.

She gets on a train, she goes out to the wild, wild West.

To me, it was like the image that I had when I was watching TV a couple of years ago.

I've got 1883 and I've got the Gilded Age, the two TV shows.

She's literally taking a train between those two worlds.

Yeah.

And so she understands what's going on.

and everywhere she goes, she asks the local community what's important to you.

That's what you need to do as you're shaping your government.

What?

What needs to happen for you?

She doesn't make assumptions about here's the issues I'm bringing to you.

but she's talking about how do we get engaged?

How do we build a good government?

You know, we're still an experiment.

and I'm surprised we're still in experiment.

Yeah.

And I think the Susan B Anthony.

>> People don't understand the depth of what she experienced and what she went through.

And I brought up the Gilded Age, in part because, you know, she went, Ida B Wells-barnett came to Rochester because she'd written the red record and she's speaking, and Susan B Anthony it's a great conversation.

Both Susan and and Ida wrote about this in their biographies.

and, basically somebody stands up and says to Ida B Wells Barnett, why are you here in the North?

You should be in the South where they're doing the lynching.

And Susan B Anthony stands up and says, we're just as complicit.

I'm paraphrasing now, but basically gives the case of Frederick Douglass daughter being isolated in her school as an example of here's Rochester committing the very sins we're talking about.

we're thrilled that this year coming for entertainment is the woman who's been portraying Ida B Wells-barnett in the musical Suffs Ida B Wells.

Barnett left that event at a church and stayed with Susan B Anthony as a house guest, and came back again and stayed as a house guest.

And so here you've got someone whose generation and a half younger than Susan B Anthony, who's one of the most significant leaders in the civil rights movement that was happening at the turn of the century in this country, but mostly in really exposing the injustice of the Jim Crow South and the lynching that's happening across America.

And Susan B Anthony.

And where do they agree and where do they disagree, and how how do they understand?

You know, Wells was radicalized and was at the forefront of the movement at this point.

Susan B Anthony is in her 80s and she's compromising sometimes, but she's still pushing.

wouldn't we love to have been in the house listening to those conversations?

Yeah.

so we're really excited that we're going to have this this woman who's presenting Ida B Wells Barnett in opening up that conversation.

>> And the show is SAF as in suffragists.

>> Right?

>> Correct.

so again, we're going to get to that event coming up here.

I mean, that's a big get for the museum and house.

So when you think here, your predecessor talking about the history, what's interesting to me, Alison, is that Deborah has said before joining the Susan B Anthony Museum and House, she thinks about what she knew about Susan B Anthony was like, I'm surprised at how little I know or how much I'm still learning.

I want everyone in the audience thinking about this question, what are your kids know about Susan B Anthony?

What do you think you know, and coming into this role now, do you feel almost overwhelmed with the task?

Do you feel like you've become a historical historian and a nerd?

About Susan B Anthony?

>> Absolutely.

And when you mentioned, what do kids know about Susan B Anthony?

That was my first exposure to Susan B Anthony as well.

>> Where did you grow up?

>> I grew up just outside of Skinny Atlas, New York, and I was actually Susan B Anthony in my fourth grade wax museum.

>> Oh, wow.

>> So it was a really full circle moment for me to have an opportunity to intern at the Anthony Museum.

When I was completing my graduate work.

And ever since then, I've been trying to come back.

And when the deputy director position opened up in 2021, I knew I had to throw my hat in the ring.

And here we are today.

But some of the most knowledgeable people that come to the museum about Susan B Anthony are our students.

we have over 2000 students a year that come and visit, and I'm always amazed at how much they know when I ask them, what do you know about Susan B Anthony before we start a program with them.

>> Do you think that New York State, from your understanding, does New York State educate on Susan B Anthony better than the rest of the country?

I mean, do we do enough here?

>> I think that there's certainly a lot to talk about with the 19th century, certainly through the context of Susan B Anthony.

But we have schools from Maryland that do virtual programs with us every year, and those students are incredibly knowledgeable about her.

They're learning about Susan B Anthony and Frederick Douglass and really excited to engage in any type of discussion when we're doing a virtual tour with them.

>> I do want to point out an email I got this morning, because the way that some students are going to be learning now, the way that the world is going, a lot of people are turning to A.I., and I want to read something to both of you because I thought this would be pertinent.

And before I even do that, I just want to reference again something that Deborah Hughes has said, which is that it is important not to to turn.

Even if Susan B Anthony is a hero of yours, it's important to remember that she was a human being and all human beings are flawed.

We all are.

No human being is a saint or an idol.

We don't need hagiography.

We need history.

And so flawed people is the way to learn about real people.

At the same time, there's been a little bit of a sort of modern in the last ten years, sort of redefining or reexamination.

So let me read some of what I saw here.

Charles emailed me this morning to say careful.

I was in the East Avenue Wegmans over by where they have posters of Susan B Anthony and Frederick Douglass and David Bowie and so forth.

And I heard a woman unironically say, Susan B Anthony is really problematic.

I'm not kidding.

So after I read Charles's email, I decided to ask various A.I.

platforms about Susan B Anthony.

I'm going to read a couple.

Here's what Google A.I.

told me.

Susan B Anthony is considered problematic due to her racist views and exclusion of black women from the mainstream suffrage movement, particularly her opposition to the 15th Amendment granting black men the vote and her willingness to align with white supremacists to prioritize white women's suffrage, though she also had personal anti-racist moments and was a strong abolitionist, creating a complex legacy.

And here's what Grok says the assessment of Susan B Anthony as problematic largely stems from her and other suffrage leaders tactical decisions and statements regarding racial equality during the post-Civil War era.

While she was a strong abolitionist earlier in her life, the specific disagreements over the 15th Amendment led to actions that are criticized today, particularly the exclusion of black women's priorities from the primary suffrage platform.

End quote.

So why I think this matters is a lot of people are going to use A.I.

to inform themselves, and sometimes they're going to read that.

They're not going to read any more, they're not going to go to the museum and house.

And I wonder, I'll start with Deborah, what you think about those A.I.

descriptions of Susan B Anthony?

>> Well, I'll tell you a story.

I did an A.I.

search the other day about something.

and then when I asked A.I.

what the source was, they told me it was Deborah Hughes only something I'd never said.

>> Oh, no.

>> So that was quite an experience.

the Susan B Anthony, a woman in the 19th century.

There's no way she didn't inherit racism.

You know the world.

She's born into.

New York state still allowed the enslavement of human beings.

What's remarkable to me is not that we see times when her internal bias shows up.

it's remarkable how often we see her both struggling against that bias and calling other people out on that bias.

my frustration about the 15th amendment is there's a quote that's often used, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the 15th amendment.

and it's been misquoted by scholars, particularly Child Door, for years and then by Flexner.

and taken completely out of context.

So if that's the story that demonstrates Susan B Anthony's response to the 15th amendment or to getting black people the right to vote, it's wrong.

there are better stories.

And I think that's one of the pieces about Anthony Museum.

I think the staff all believe that there's a real opportunity to use Susan B Anthony life and Story to be anti-racist and to challenge people to be anti-racist.

But the way to do that is to have the honest conversations.

So if people are dropping bad scholarship to present a point that doesn't help us look at racism, honestly.

>> Yeah, I understand the point because you've never told me that she was perfect, that she was some sort of idol of perfection and unflawed views on race and equality.

You've acknowledged that she was imperfect.

She was a product of her time.

But you've also pressed that point to me that we've got to be really careful and really understand and read the words here.

And when I look at what A.I.

is saying about her, it is, I think it risks educating people in the wrong direction about Susan B Anthony.

And it could it could affect the way a lot of people think of her.

>> Absolutely.

if the Anthony Museum were to post something on social media.

That's a great quote from Susan B Anthony about current events.

Immediately there would be possibly 200 posts that say, don't listen to her, she's a racist.

So that becomes a tool for people who want to shut down the voice.

some of those are trolls and all that.

And to me, that's frustrating.

because well, I think the other piece is the stories that she has as a white woman.

I can learn more about my racism when we talk about Susan B Anthony.

an example would be when she's in high school or public school, actually and she is outside of Rochester.

She's with her uncle.

She goes to a Quaker meeting and she's shocked that at this Quaker meeting, despite her values, the people are segregated by color.

and this is Susan's awakening, and she's, you know, 13, 14 years old, and she's saying, how can this be happening in a Quaker meeting?

but then she also says, and they're really well dressed and well educated.

It's like, well, Susan, you just reinforced ideas that people have about black people.

>> Like, she was surprised that they were.

Well.

>> No, she wasn't surprised that they were well educated.

But it's almost like she could almost tolerate more that they were segregated.

I see, so here's her classism.

here's other elements of that.

Now, how many times have I heard other people say something like that?

You know, it's the awful quote about, you know, that that person is very articulate.

Yeah.

It's like, come on, we can talk.

So that's an entry point to really say, okay, Susan's standing up for something.

She's recognizing injustice.

And yet we see her bias in part of how she talks about her rights about it.

the right arm quote, as we say, is my greatest frustration.

it gets truncated to say that Susan B Anthony did not support black people getting the vote.

That's absolutely wrong.

in fact, and that's a frustration for me.

one of the pieces around when people say she was willing to align herself with some of the fundamentalists and some of the more conservative people in the 19th century is true.

And we should look at that.

But the reality is, Susan B Anthony had figured out that there was no way that we were going to get votes for people in this country if we didn't get a constitutional amendment, and so did she care if some white women wanted to get the vote so that they could make sure they outvoted black men and women?

No.

She wanted a constitutional amendment that said no person can be denied the right to vote, period.

and so to say that she was opposed to black people getting the vote, that's absolutely wrong.

Her opposition to the 15th amendment, and she was very clear on this, was that it didn't give everybody the right to vote.

It's the end of the Civil War.

The American Equal Rights Association came together and said, we are now going to advocate to get black men the right to vote.

And all women the right to vote.

And she's thrilled they actually closed down the women's convention to join that movement.

And it's shortly thereafter that this proposition comes up to say, well, we could get black men the right to vote now.

And Susan does not believe that the Constitution or that the reconstruction of this country should be based on that compromise period.

And that's what she says.

and and she's very clear about that.

It's not that it doesn't give black men the right to vote.

She's all for that.

She says it.

She publishes it in her paper.

She objects to it because it does not give black women and all women the right to vote.

And I think that that's a but what movements don't have to have moments when they decide to compromise, right.

but she also and Frederick Douglass, you know, in the 1880s when he says, I wouldn't have supported that had I known that women wouldn't be right behind me at the time.

You know, at that moment, I think they thought the momentum was more freedom, more liberty.

And the reality was no.

So states in the South came back into the Union already knowing that they were going to suppress the black vote.

>> So, Allison, like, I have no problem with people looking at that debate about whether or not Susan B Anthony's position was wise or strategically sound or even morally sound.

What I don't like is the way we can distill something into one A.I.

tidbit and then go, well, sort of cancel her because she was on the wrong side of that moment, or she was against black men, or without seeing the whole person and recognizing the complexity.

But I that's what I fear.

So you see students who are coming to you with pretty good base of knowledge in a lot of different ages.

That's great.

I'm worried about society oversimplifying and canceling and casting out even Susan B Anthony.

And I'm going like, this is not a healthy development.

What do you see?

>> So what I would hope is that people would come visit us at the museum, because this is the type of discussion that our docents really want to have with people.

We had a school group from Texas come up and visit their college students.

They knew about the right arm, quote, that Deborah has referenced.

And so what I asked them when we met with them is, what do you know about Susan B Anthony?

And then as we moved through the house, we started to have discussions about how much more nuanced this history is and how complex.

And at the end, we did ask them, has your perception of her changed?

And we talked a lot about cancel culture.

And how do you lift up something good that someone's done, but that it's okay to still hold them accountable for where they've fallen short in your eyes?

And so I think that the discussions that we've been able to have with visitors has been really productive and really positive and, and aligns with our mission and encouraging people to be more civically engaged and as a public history institution, it's our responsibility to share the truth and to provide multiple perspectives for people to come up with their own conclusions.

>> You don't need my stamp of approval, but I would just say, good on you for recognizing complexity.

It's one of our missions here.

People are all flawed.

you know, if we're going to be in the business of canceling, I'm going to be canceled.

We're all going to be canceled eventually.

And if we're canceling Susan B Anthony, it's going to be a short list of people.

Uncancelled.

I just bring that up because I worry about the age of A.I.

education, that's all.

So I'm really glad to hear that, because our listeners did not hear our guests say, what you heard from A.I.

was untrue.

And she was a sort of had a clean, perfect record of perfectly advocating for all rights all the time.

It was a record of compromise, growth, evolution as a person, recognizing certain biases, sometimes overcoming, sometimes falling short, but certainly not the distilled version of the A.I.

You know, sort of, well, she was racist.

So that's why people are canceling her today.

And that's just not a good way to look at her history.

So I just I appreciate that very, very much.

We're going to take our only break.

And when we come back we're going to talk about this event that's coming up.

We're going to focus on the work ahead because it is a growth agenda.

At the Susan B Anthony Museum and House, Deborah Hughes had aggressive goals when she was the CEO and president, and I'm sure Allison Hinman does as well.

And we're going to talk about where we're going next.

That's all coming up on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, we've had a lot of questions from the audience about what it means that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is being dissolved and what that what that means for NPR PBS WXXI WEOS what it does and doesn't mean to be clear.

And our CEO, Chris Hastings, is going to join us next hour to try to answer some of those questions and make it clear what this means for us going forward.

And we'll talk to some of our other colleagues as well in a Friday roundup next hour.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson so Allison Hinman, president and CEO of The National Susan B Anthony Museum and House.

Get on with the work.

What is the work look like in 2026?

>> Well, we certainly have a lot ahead of us.

We have a campus expansion that was launched by Deborah Hughes in a very ambitious board, and we have a really incredible board that is ready to pick up where we've left things off and continue on with fundraising to get this building built.

We're going to be right on the corner of Brown and Jefferson, and we have really wonderful, a self-guided exhibition planned that will get into more of the complexity of the 19th century.

And these social movements, but also allow us to better showcase our collection, provide better storage, but welcome more people as well.

So that is the main project ahead.

>> And you had a pretty ambitious fundraising goal.

Deborah Hughes we all do.

By the way, WXXI does how do you think it ended up for you?

>> So we've raised 16.5 million toward the building.

to complete the building, we estimate it will be 23 million.

So that's the goal there.

The overall campaign goal is still 25 million, which includes some endowment goal.

>> Okay.

And now you get to walk away and not be part of that.

Are you still going to check in here?

>> I'll tell anybody why.

It's a great thing to make a contribution to.

>> You will be an ambassador.

>> Absolutely.

>> Okay.

so there's a lot coming up for the museum and house and this event that is coming up next month here.

What is the date in February?

February 11th, which is what day of the week?

Allison.

>> It is a Wednesday.

>> Wednesday, February 11th, 6 p.m., at the Rochester Riverside Convention Center.

Tell people if they've never been.

And they can learn more at Susan B. Org what is coming up for you then?

>> So one of the things that we're going to be doing is honoring Deborah Hughes for her 18 plus years at the Anthony Museum.

I was running some numbers and we are coming up on 80 years of being open to the public.

And Deborah has been president and CEO for about a quarter of that time.

And so the museum has certainly grown.

So we'll be looking back on that.

And some of the major milestones and achievements of Deborah, but we'll also be having Danielle Fulton, who Deborah mentioned portrays Ida B Wells Barnett.

She'll be performing a few songs and talking about what that role means to her and why it's important to be a part of a production like Suffs.

>> All right.

So that is all coming up.

Tickets are still available at Susan B. Anthony.

WXXI is a media sponsor.

and that's not why we're having this conversation, but we are a media sponsor and they would love the Susan B. Anthony Museum and House would love to see you there.

On the evening of February 11th.

so let's talk about what you think the work is in 2026 here.

So and again, if you just jumped in and joined us, I said get on with the work because that's the theme.

And that is a for taken from a Susan B Anthony quote.

What is the work in 2026.

>> Well I think get on with the work has been the core of the mission for the museum for years.

and it it has to do with lifting up the values.

If you go to the cemetery, there's a pillar in the midst of the Anthony family.

gravestones.

And it's got liberty, justice, humanity and equality around the four sides of the pillar.

to me, those are the work.

that's the idea of how do we continue to become and have a vision for a democracy that truly is a government of, by and for the people, and that figures out how to be one of the brightest stars around the world for how to be a democracy in a government.

>> Do you do you feel like the forces that are on the side of the work are strong, and the forces that are standing in the way of the work are also strong?

Is this a hard moment right now, or do you think that there's momentum for you >>?

>> I think this is a really hard moment for everyone.

>> The why?

>> Well, because we have had a we've understood government on a lot of levels how it works, how it functions, and suddenly none of that's happening the same way.

The disruption is huge.

And and like any crisis, people keep thinking somebody else is going to fix it.

but we're put into this chaotic situation where the crisis changes hour to hour.

I, I thought, well, gee, if anyone asks what, what should we do?

my answer would be, I don't know but I know that none of the systems that we think are going to get us through this moment are the answers to that.

and, you know.

>> Like.

Well.

>> Elaborate on that.

What do you mean?

>> Yep.

So in the 70s I'm that old, and I was a student, and we were working to clean up and to stop nuclear proliferation.

Yeah.

You know, there were talks that the Hudson River could be set on fire because it was so polluted.

we saw air and people getting asthma and all kinds of conditions.

I'm amazed at how the country came together and how we improved that.

And we have to give some credit to Richard Nixon for making some of that happen.

it used to be that we it felt like we were building and moving ahead.

And if a party pushed something ahead they would continue to build on it.

When it was their turn.

We've never had this kind of switch where it's like there's two teams and the new team is going to come in and disassemble all the progress that's been made, all the things that have happened, that's just that's the most sane way to run a government.

you know, a museum is a place where you're always building on the knowledge base that people have, the understanding that people have, and you get better because of that.

And I think good government is based on a certain amount of stability.

and I think if, if we're going to go into an era where one team says this is what we're voted in for, and the other team says, well, this is what we're voted in for, and they just tear apart the good work that the other and more than a third of the country has no connection with either team.

So that model just isn't working for us anymore.

And I don't I don't know what the model is.

>> Yeah.

I was just reading a Pew survey on neighbors.

And Americans still have a lot of affection for their neighbors, although we are more segregated by political views, even in the counties and neighborhoods we live in.

But even if you live in a sort of a politically or ideologically diverse neighborhood, you have a lot of affection for your neighbors, which I'm glad to see in this.

And I think we're going to have a conversation soon on the on the show about this Pew Research on this.

So I find that very hopeful.

And yet when you ask people about ideological opponents it sort of depends if you're in that, that nonpartisan bloc, that independent bloc, you have more nebulous views, I think probably a little bit healthier views.

But wow, people are finding non-human characteristics in people who disagree with them too easily.

It does not feel like it felt ten years ago, and it does not feel like it felt when I was growing up.

The existential stakes of politics and news cycles and frankly, the fragmentation of media feels really dangerous to me.

And so, you know, whether you're fundraising for an organization that seeks to educate the public, whether you're working in public broadcasting and media, wherever you are, it just feels everything feels more tense.

And does that make it harder to fundraise?

Does that make it harder to do your mission?

Does that make it harder for people to sort of check in and, and, and, and listen openly to what you have to say?

I'm curious.

What do you think, Deborah?

>> I think for the.

>> For the Anthony Museum the challenge for fundraising is that people, people who like to support the Anthony Museum also have lots of causes that they're supporting.

So it's not so much a risk that people will say, oh, I don't like what you're doing or where you're going.

It's that they'll say, the best place that we could put money right now is here.

And so we'll we'll come back to what you're doing.

I think that's been the biggest challenge.

And to be honest, sometimes I agree with them.

the but who knew that the Smithsonian would be so disrupted in the exhibits that it's doing and the preservation of artifacts that museums like the Anthony Museum would end up being a place that people can trust and have to be maintained.

>> You mean in the past.

>> Year.

>> I mean, in the past.

>> Year, the Smithsonian.

>> Yeah.

You know, the number of exhibits that we knew that were going to open that have been suppressed or taken apart, some of the fabulous exhibits that I've seen in some of our national museums that have been disassembled because of their treatment about women's history, their treatment about history for minorities and particular groups.

The huge disassembly of accessible exhibits it's it's terrifying what has happened to our national treasures.

And so in that sense, it's like I can see a critical moment to support something like the Anthony Museum, because our small museums are safeguards for our nation's history.

>> That's really interesting.

How do you see that, Alison?

>> I mean, I certainly agree with Deborah.

It seems like every few days there's news about what's happening in the Smithsonian and that when you look at the history of museums, museums have always there's been some type of common theme in how they've responded to different things over periods of time.

I taught introduction to Museum studies, and one of the things that we looked at is when museums are first being developed in the United States in the late 19th century, and how they're being formed.

And then in the early 20th century, that's where you're starting to see curators going to places around the world and gathering objects around World War II.

You see this really patriotic theme amongst museums where they're even planting patriotic gardens and, and teaching other people.

But during the depression, they're providing services for people that are unemployed to help them.

become employed and gain new skills.

And so I'm interested in what is going to be our theme in looking back as time goes on.

But I think the big concern with the Smithsonian is even the truth is there's censorship there.

In exploring multiple perspectives which help people grow and consider things differently.

And to have things like that eliminated is really dangerous.

>> Let me try to steelman the perspective of people who wanted to ban or block some of those exhibits.

What I hear them saying is, it's not that we want to teach the full and flawed nature of American history on women's suffrage and civil rights, on treatment of people of color, slavery.

It's that part and parcel to teaching that is inculcating this idea that we are naturally flawed country or a flawed people, and that we should have a self-loathing.

And we're just not going to teach that.

We're not going to do that.

We're going to focus on the things that make us great.

What do you say to that?

>> I think that you have to have both.

I think to be great, you have to take the lessons from the past and make sure that you're not repeating those things.

And I think, you know, often on tour, we're talking about why everybody wants to know why couldn't women vote?

Why was that so dangerous?

And I think that there is some feeling that if you share power somehow, it means you have less.

which I don't think is true, I think, but I think that it's really important that we highlight the complexities of our past because it is going to help us inform how we're moving forward in the future.

>> What do you think, Deborah?

>> So you saw me smile.

>> I did.

see kind of a visceral reaction there.

>> Because you brought me full circle back to my theological training.

there you know, my my studies in seminary were mostly biblical studies, and the Bible is just about this discussion that we're having all over again.

if humanity thinks that we can dig ourselves out with power or wealth or ego, that's the great flaw of humankind.

We dig ourselves out with compassion and grace and a nation that can't understand, that they can't understand ourselves as as flawed, that can't understand that thinks that somehow it's just the Tower of Babel story all over again.

And if anybody thinks that the way to become a better human being or to become a better society is to pretend that we are not flawed.

They've missed the whole point of the story.

>> But they would.

>> Say, I think, yeah, but we've got kids who are growing up hating this country, hating themselves, or being taught to to view this country as a flawed project, inherently that is morally malignant and that that is a result of some of this teaching and that's got to be corrected.

>> I we don't see that in the kids that come to the Anthony Museum at all.

I think that what we've got kids who are terrified because, you know, if you're a kid and you're worried about a bully at school, imagine if you're a kid and you're seeing bullies in in the streets of Minneapolis.

Imagine if you're I mean, I the watching the events of January 6th.

Incredibly traumatic.

We've got kids who have been in more than one situation of a shooting at school.

We've got I was shocked when we had an intern a number of years ago, and we're doing a whole tour, and I'm so excited and I'm thrilled to be on boarding her.

And I showed her the crawl space under the carriage house, and she said, oh, that's where we would hide.

And I said, what do you mean?

And she said, well, if there was a shooter.

>> Wow.

>> And it's like this, 16-year-old's.

>> Never been.

>> Spending a two hour tour where I'm talking.

That.

And what she wants to know is where do we hide if there's a shooter?

Of course we have kids who are afraid to be a part of this country.

We have totally missed the point about what we're teaching kids.

And we should be teaching the huge strengths of this country.

And there are huge, tremendous strengths of this country.

And I think that that's and we can't we can't lose that.

So I don't buy the idea that teaching someone about the enslavement of people somehow I think that that's the road to becoming a better, stronger country.

And I think and kids see that and understand that, and it helps them understand a world that is working to be better.

>> You want to add.

>> To that?

Yeah.

>> I, I totally agree.

It is not what we're seeing with the students that are coming to visit us.

I had the privilege of doing a lot with the elementary schools that came to visit, and we have a program for our second graders called Got Rights, and they do a tour in the house, but then they come into our carriage house and they do a program where we talk to them about what rights they have, what rights they might want, and then we also talk to them about abolition.

And at the end we do an activity with them.

There's different colored ribbons on chairs, and depending on which color ribbon is on the chair that they're sitting in determines whether or not they get to participate.

And at the end, we ask them how they feel about that.

And we had one student that really understood that this was race and gender in the 19th century.

She just got it.

But it was followed up by another student and he said he that if he was going to be president and be responsible for making laws, he would want to dress up as, as a woman so that he would know if those laws were fair or not.

And I said to him, so what I'm hearing is that you think it's important to think about people that aren't like us.

And he said, yeah, we're all different, but we're all friends here, and it's important to be thoughtful.

And those are the types of discussions and thoughts that we're hearing from our second graders, from our fourth graders.

They're learning how to use their voice and how to advocate for change.

Our high school students are creating advocacy posters for Act or for causes that they care about.

And we're not seeing that.

We're seeing very reflective, thoughtful ideas from students.

>> Wow.

there's so much I want to still talk about.

We only have a few minutes left here.

One thing that I wanted to just ask you briefly about because you invoked your time as a minister, you're still ordained.

>> I am.

>> In Presbyterian and and and Baptist.

>> Technically, my ordination is American Baptist.

>> American Baptist.

>> Okay.

and so that might feel like a past lifetime, but you're still ordained.

And I was listening to a conversation with James Talarico, who is running for Senate in Texas, who is a Democrat, but also seeking to become ordained himself and, and thinks a lot about the radicalism of Jesus Christ.

And he he he's probably the single most interesting person I've I've ever heard in politics.

Talk about Christianity because he he says modern Christianity focuses on a few passages that are wielded, wielded in political ways.

And it and yet, if you wanted to do it that way, you could use passages, you know, like it's easier to pass through the eye of a needle than to get into heaven.

If as a rich person, I mean, I'm not quoting it perfectly here.

You may have to correct my theology, but what I thought was interesting was the the selective nature of quotation and the wielding of power, as opposed to the study of the person that we understand about Jesus and his actual radicalism, his desire to see all people treated fairly, the poor lifted up, the oppressed, lifted up, the loving your neighbors, loving your enemies.

It's really hard to do.

And all those years ago when you were ordained, I wonder if you if you think we're having healthy conversations about Christianity and religion these days.

>> Every institution, whether it's political, government greed has understood that the church could be a tool to be used and has found ways effectively to use that tool.

you know, you had Susan B Anthony and Frederick Douglass, who both saw it as the greatest, the church as the greatest bulwark.

protecting slavery in this country.

And yet you had the Quakers and a lot of the revolutionaries, some of them from Rochester, like Walter Rauschenbusch, who's helping to disassemble the Gilded E.R.A.

I think the when I went to the Anthony Museum, I still operated under the assumption that the church were the radicals who were really pushing through great social movements.

Then I saw this incredible neighborhood where the anchor was the Anthony Museum, where there was no religion that tied people, where there was nothing that tied people together except the neighborhood.

And I realized that community engagement on values that we believe in had much more power and was much less susceptible to corruption and abuse.

I think that the stories about Jesus are also the stories about how we understand God.

and.

It's so ironic right now.

my understanding of Noah's story and the rainbow that God puts in the clouds is God's done.

This whole flood and the people, whether or not it's God intent or not, understand this is punishment.

They hadn't done what God said to do.

And so therefore there's this great flood, and Noah and the animals survive, and Noah goes off and gets drunk, which people forget that part of the story.

and then God basically says, I've learned that.

I can't believe I'm paraphrasing.

God's a little uncomfortable.

>> But.

>> Basically says, I've learned that punishment isn't the way to get through to you people and says, I'm putting my bow.

And it doesn't mean it's his archery bow.

It's the the bow of punishment.

The bow.

I'm putting my bow in the sky as a reminder that I'm not going to be trying to teach you that way anymore.

And so to me, that's that's the idea.

What are we supposed it's like, what's the work that we're supposed to be getting on with?

Well, for me, that would be a question about my own faith.

And to me, the work we're supposed to be getting on with is figure out how to be good people to one another, figure out how to deal with all the horrific stuff and be really good.

And that's what really matters.

And so and that Jesus aligned with that understanding of the creator to me and that's that, that essentially what we have going on here has at its very essence, what Genesis says.

God pronounced it good.

Then we have to figure out what to make of it.

>> All these years, I didn't know I'd be asking you to come back and do Sunday school for us.

But you know, sometime.

Come on back sometime.

in in our final minutes here, I just want our guests to to tell you what they're looking forward to most here.

And if you've never been to the Susan B Anthony National Museum and House, how do people engage with you?

Whether they're part of a school, whether they're individuals, they want to come do a tour, learn something.

What do you want them to know?

>> So the best way to get in touch with the Anthony Museum is to go to Susan B. Anthony.

And we have tours that are available that you can register for online.

We also have a lot of great partnerships, so if anybody is looking to take a cruise American Cruise Line is coming to Rochester and the Anthony Museum is going to be one of the featured excursions.

but you also can reach out about programing and we have great lectures lined up for the remainder of the year.

>> The big event coming up on the evening, 6 p.m.

February 11th at the Joseph Rochester Riverside Convention Center, is the annual dinner and information tickets available at Susan B. Anthony.

Org I'll close with this.

We've been talking about sort of that uneven march of history and and the compromises and the strategy and trying to push civil rights ahead that Susan B Anthony life was all about.

She did not live to see the first female governor in the United States.

And a lot of people who worked on civil rights did not, the rights of, of people of color did not live to see the first elected black governor.

PBS Pinchback is the name of the first black governor in Louisiana in the 1870s.

But did not end up, was not elected.

The first elected black governor didn't happen until Douglas Wilder was elected in Virginia in 1989.

It's amazing the first elected woman governor was in Wyoming, Nellie Tayloe Ross, 1925.

And I just bring that up because, you know, we don't know if there's going to be another woman on the ballot for president.

It could be a Republican, could be a Democrat, could be otherwise.

But briefly, how much does that still matter to you seeing women on the ballot and especially at the top of the ticket, do you think Susan B would have thought by 2026, we'd have seen a woman as president?

>> Susan B Anthony understood that women can be as corrupt as men.

so she wouldn't have said that it should be a gender.

It should be the right person to provide the right kind of leadership.

>> You know, I always appreciate these conversations.

And even though you're retired, will you come back sometime?

>> Absolutely.

>> Evan Deborah Hughes is the retired president and CEO of The National Susan B Anthony Museum and House and Allison Hinman.

I hope we get to see a lot of you in the years to come.

The president and CEO of the National, Susan B Anthony Museum and House, congratulations on the new role.

Please come back sometime very soon.

>> Thank you.

I hope.

>> To and just one more time listeners, it's Susan B. Org.

For all the information.

You've never been to the museum and house chance to go learn more there.

And a big event coming up about a month from now.

We got more Connections coming up next.

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