A lifetime of secrets come to light on a mother-daughter vacation in Paris.

It's a story that is touching and relatable, and with a twist at the end that you'll never see coming.

It's The New York Times bestselling novel, "Things I Wish I Told My Mother."

I'm Ann Bocock, and welcome to "Between The Covers."

Susan Patterson is my guest, her novel, "Things I Wish I Told My Mother," centers around a complicated yet relatable mother-daughter relationship.

The book is a collaboration with Susan DiLallo and Susan's own husband, James Patterson.

Welcome to "Between The Covers," and let me tell you, I did not expect to feel the feelings and the emotions that I felt from this book.

So, before we get into the actual book, where did the idea come from?

Well, first of all, thank you, Ann, for having me.

This has been a really exciting and special journey for me.

And the idea kind of came about a few days after my mom passed away.

And I was with Jim, he was on a, something on a book tour.

And something, I don't even remember what it was, it was very insignificant, but a thought came to me and I was stunned that all of a sudden I realized I was not able to talk to her.

And I kind of looked at him and said, you know, "The things I wish I could have told my mother."

And he's like, you know, "That could make a really good book title."

And that was sort of all I needed to hear.

So we started working on it after that.

It really brought everything together to come up with this story.

And it's all fiction, I mean, it's not about me.

However, you know, you take from your own life experiences and there are some similarities that I took from about the characters.

Speaking of similarities, I believe I understand that your mother and Susan's mother passed away In the same year, and they were both, my mom was 98, I think her mom was a few years younger.

So we had that, and she had a completely different relationship with her mom.

So it's sort of, and you know, she grew up in New York and I grew up in the Midwest.

So we sort of, you know, had our own little things that we could, you know, bring to the party there about that.

I have to get into the book right now.

The story is a fictional mother, we're talking Dr. Liz.

Yes.

She is this world famous OBGYN, who probably is a much better doctor than she was as a mother.

She has one daughter, her daughter's name is Laurie, who is successful in her own right in advertising.

Now, if you would pick this up, tell me about these two, their personalities and the dynamic.

Well, that's a little bit, so I have a background in advertising too.

Laurie also was a swimmer, so was I.

My mother was a professor of nursing and an econ major.

And I think, you know, she was maybe born too soon for that because women, you know, sort of at that age were not really going to college.

But my mom was really tough and, but she had a really loving family situations, two brothers and two sisters.

And even though she was tough, she was sort of like the marshmallow on the inside of.

And the idea of then visiting Norway, which is part of my family heritage, something that I had taken from my aunt who had really gone back and researched all the family names.

So Dr. O, Dr. Omson is my mother's maiden name.

So there were a lot of little snippets in there of that.

They both have these strong personalities.

And they, like many mothers and daughters, do clash.

But everything is an issue, even amusing things like their luggage that they take on the trip.

Right, right.

Because Laurie was more of an artist and she, you know, she was younger and she could just, you know, take a loose bag, you know, anything.

And the mother had to have fancier Louis Vuitton luggage.

So, you know, and I think that there was that belief that even though she really loved her daughter, her daughter wasn't in the medical field or she wasn't, you know, maybe a lawyer or something.

So she maybe didn't respect as much that she was successful in her own career.

Susan, I think we are all guilty of this, that we don't think our mothers had a life before they became mothers.

I mean, we don't think that, oh, maybe our mothers, did they have secrets?

Mmhmm, mmhmm, mmhmm.

This book opens this up.

I'm not going to give anything away, but when people read this book, when women read this book, what do they tell you?

Do they tell you this has encouraged a dialogue?

Yes, it has.

A lot of people just, for whatever reason, whatever their relationships were with their moms, if they had, you know, just passed away or if they noticed the struggle and they picked up something out of it that they, it was relatable.

And, you know, some people said it helped them move on if their mother had passed away, or I'm gonna take that trip, as you suggested.

You know, my mom was a bit older than I was, so she had me late and I was an only child that there, I wish now in hindsight, even that I would've found out more about when she was growing up.

I mean, after she passed away and I went through her things, I found a lot of love letters that my mom and dad had written back and forth to one another.

I also found that, you know, kind of a lost art, right?

I also found some old boyfriend letters and some other things.

So, it's sort of interesting, you know, there, you're right, you know, we kinda think, well, you know, you think about your parents as not really knowing anything, but they did have, and maybe they need to share that with you too.

You know, so it could go both ways with the sharing.

I think that's the take that I got.

It can go both ways.

[Susan] Right, right.

Mothers and daughters.

And it is, everyone who reads this has that same experience.

What do you think your mother would say about this book?

I've thought about that a lot.

First of all, I think she would just absolutely love that she would've been an inspiration for this.

And then, I think she would probably say, "Well, I'm not that doctor, oh, am I?"

You know, but I think she would love it.

And you know, I think she realized that she was a little tough, but you know what I always would say to our son, Jack, you know, "You weren't born with a set of instructions."

You know, it's also not easy being a mom.

And being a mom, I mean, you just don't know.

And I only had one, but each one would be different.

And how do you know what you kind of, you want the best, but how do you know that that's the right way to go?

I mean, it's complicated.

And I think, I don't think mothers or fathers probably get enough credit for that.

It is complicated, you can't underscore that enough.

You use a vacation as a vehicle to tell the story.

And they traveled to Paris, they traveled to Norway.

Let's start with Paris.

Because you have to go to Paris, right?

You have to, a foodies delight.

I mean, please tell me you went numerous times to research the hot chocolate alone Well, yeah.

Well, I had been there enough times to know, and I had gone with my parents and, really the, it was kind of a journey, you know, to rediscover a few roots as part of the story.

But the feeling was, you know, you have to go to Paris kind of thing because it's just, you know, it's Paris, it's so great.

And so then, you know, especially when we were in COVID, I mean, I did get to Norway early on, so I was able to really go and experience that again.

But I had been to Paris a lot of times to research There were a lot of things in Paris.

I actually have a friend who was a travel agent who wrote things down and said, I need to research some of these places myself.

And then you continue to Norway.

There's a scene in there with the Northern Lights, that particularly stood out to me.

Now, trying to see the Northern Lights can be iffy.

It can be cloudy and cold, and you're not always gonna hit a home run.

So, it's a lesson in patience.

[Susan] Mmhmm.

And I thought, isn't this relationship also a lesson in patience?

It is.

Susan and I, she had never been to Norway.

And so that was great.

You know, we went to Oslo and then we took the train over to Bergen, which I had done a couple of times before, but she hadn't.

That's absolutely spectacular if you've never done it.

I mean, it goes up over the glaciers, it's really stunning.

Oh, it must be beautiful.

The landscape is amazing.

And then we flew up to Alta, which is above the Arctic Circle, to chase the Northern Lights.

And we did, we saved a couple of nights because it is not guaranteed that you're gonna find it.

But the second night we lucked out early on.

It's quiet, it's really stunning.

And in the background, I mean, I have some great pictures from it too.

You can, you know, see mountains, and this is kind of a weird little piece of it.

So, I had grown up in the Midwest, so my dad had been there, and I always told my mom that when she passed that I would bring them both together here.

And, it was really weird coincidence, but while I'm, I mean, so it's really late at night and you know, I have a lot of layers of clothes on because they give you another suit to put over your ski equipment outfit kind of.

And my phone is ringing, I'm thinking who is calling?

And so, I had to get through all these layers and I get my phone and it's the people from the funeral place that are saying, you know, I can have your dad here tomorrow.

And I just thought, oh my god, like, my dad was a 100% Norwegian.

And that, it was almost like, it was strange, but it was really great.

Unbelievable story Yeah, so that was really touching.

Wow.

All right, that's Norway.

We talked about Paris and the food and you know, just spectacular.

Your characters in the book are very open to culinary adventures, let's say.

Especially when you get to Norway.

So, what did you do?

Did you flip a coin to see who's going to eat the reindeer?

Yeah, well, Susan volunteered for that.

I had trouble with that.

But yeah, we would find places that we both agreed on, and you know, we would sort of try a lot of things on the menu.

I think they might've given us good service because they thought maybe we were reviewing for food and wine or someplace like that.

So we sort of took advantage of it.

But, you know, we just loved it.

And we, you know, it was kind of funny that the two of us had never really, I'd known her for years, actually knew her husband better 'cause I worked with him in advertising.

And it was kind of funny that the two of us would go away for almost two weeks and just have a great time together.

And she laughs at everything, so she's really easy to be around.

And she's, we couldn't be more different in a way.

She's really short, and so she's always, you know, trying to get her bag in the overhead bin.

I'm like, just give it to me, okay, you know?

But we had a great time, we just loved it.

Great travel buddies.

Yeah.

Talk about working as a team.

We talked about traveling.

But working as a team, you have a friend and a husband.

How did this work?

It actually was really easy.

You know, Jim and I did the outline together, and then it was kind of a fluke how we ended up with Susan.

Not in a bad, just that she's, yeah, I mean, she's, we have known her for a long time and she's a beautiful writer, she had also worked in advertising and she writes music, and as I said I, you know, worked with her husband and it was, one day she sent a note and she was talking about her son.

Talking about how now her son had, you know, gotten his own place and moved somewhere else.

And, it was sort of like, in a way she was glad he was gone, but in a way she was sort of sad.

And I just, so I said to Jim, I go, "Were you thinking of her as somebody to write this with me or whatever?"

And he's like, "No, but that's a good idea."

And yeah, so that was kind of, you know, that's how it happened And working with your husband?

Well, he's really easy.

He's very easy to work with.

I mean, I actually, I know this sounds odd saying it in 2023, but a hundred years ago he hired me at J. Walter Thompson.

So, I've worked with him for so many years.

He's really easy to work with.

Did you and Susan physically collaborate?

Mostly by phone.

You know, we met a couple of times and we just talked and emailed and, especially 'cause this was into COVID then, you know, when we were doing a lot of it.

Who was the most challenging character for you to create?

I think the daughter.

I think because you wanted them to be different, and yet if the mother's gonna be really strong, you can't, the daughter had to be strong, but in a different way.

And they were different.

Right, yes.

So, I wondered if they were drawn by different people?

[Susan] You know, I think at first the daughter was, for me anyway, appeared to be too soft.

[Ann] You fix that.

We fix that.

And kind of the back and forth.

But, you know the little thing about how she meets the guy who actually was, I picked a lot of names too from this family tree that my aunt did.

So I think he's like my great-grandfather.

But anyway, you know how the mother always says, well, you get excited about something and they say one little thing.

Yes.

One little thing, and it gets in there.

Was, for you, was it an emotional journey to write it?

Or perhaps was it cathartic, really?

I think both.

I think, you know, kind of the things we talked about that it's something you sort of wish you would've maybe done more of.

I knew, you know, my mom was not gonna be around a long time, but my mom was really made of steel.

I mean, she just had, nothing could get her down.

I mean, she just kept going.

She was really sharp towards the end, I think her body just kind of gave up.

But I never really expected her to pass away that day.

And so, I think it's a little reflective.

And I think it was also, I don't have regrets, but I mean, I guess you can always find some if you think hard enough.

And I think maybe thinking, you know, wanting to know more about her life as a younger woman, maybe when she was, I mean, I heard plenty of, you know, she had to milk the cows, walk five miles to school and stuff like that.

But I mean, maybe a little bit more about her, and you know, she was a little guarded, like Dr O, you don't wanna show any weakness or anything like that.

But I think I could have peeled in there, peeled back some I don't want anyone to think this is a sad story because it's not No, I think it was a uplifting story.

And for all the reasons we kind of talked about.

Especially for the dialogue and what mothers and daughters, and you and I talked before, mothers will have a different take, and daughters will.

And I think that it, but it's great for all Thanks, thanks.

Laurie, who is the daughter, was a swimmer in college.

You were also a swimmer in college.

And there's a little, a couple of lines in the book where you write about this feeling that she has when she's in the water.

Yeah.

Tell me that feeling Well, that's a swimmer thing.

What is it?

Well, because you're, there's no noise, there's no interference, you know?

Even if you're, I mean, now I swim every day.

I mean, I'm lucky enough to have a nice husband who, you know, built me a 25yard pool in the backyard.

So, NCAA lane for one, it just, it's, even though I think the hardest part about swimming is actually getting in, getting wet No, it's putting on the bathing suit.

Yeah, okay.

But actually, once you're in there, it's just, you're, you know, enveloped in another sort of, you know, there's no noise, there's no, and you can think or you cannot not think.

I find it, you know, it's like a zen sort of experience I was gonna say, it almost feels like a spiritual thing.

It's exercise, but it is also, it's mental.

And I'm glad you get to do it every day.

I know, I love it.

The Patterson Foundation has donated millions of dollars, and millions of books.

Mmhmm.

And I wanna talk for a couple of minutes here about how important that is, especially now.

Mmhmm.

Well, we're, you know, big on reading.

And it's very important to get kids reading.

And we're always sort of thinking that it doesn't matter what you read.

I mean, if you read the newspaper, if you read a comic book.

There's a lot of other incoming, and you know, when Jack was little, it was, you know, he's only 25, but it was before cell phones and all that.

And you know, we'd say, "You can watch the news, but you can't just watch Saturday morning cartoons, whatever, a little bit.

But you have to read."

I mean, when he was getting old enough to read.

And he kind of was, you know, "Do I have to?"

and Jim would always say, "Well, yeah, unless you wanna live in the garage."

And, but once he kind of started reading and really liked it and found things that he liked to read, that's a key thing I think, is finding things that kids, whatever it is, books, comics, anything that they're going to want to read and enjoy and say, give me another one of those.

And I guess while I have you, I have written three, have your attention on kids reading.

Jim and I wrote three children's books sort of aimed at that.

"Big Words for Little Geniuses," followed by two more.

For that reason, to make it fun for whoever's reading with the child.

To also kind of get a kick out of what they were reading as well.

I have not referred to the end of the story until now.

And don't worry, I'm not gonna give anything away, I'm just going to let people know there is a twist.

What I am going to do though is quote something from the very last page.

And you wrote this, it says, "People don't always give you what you want, they give you what they have to give."

That is so powerful.

Talk about that for a second if you could.

I mean, I think that that was Dr. O. I think it was my mom probably too.

Not in a bad way.

I think that's what, you know, that was who she was.

She, you know, I guess I would've maybe said that my dad would've been my favorite a little bit.

But you know, in the end, the mother, the mother really, and actually my dad passed away at, this is the day he passed away, I was just thinking that.

You know, it's really powerful, those relationships.

And you have to accept that that's perhaps all you can give and get.

Susan, let's switch it up a little bit.

Okay.

What do you remember reading as a child?

What kind of books did you gravitate to?

Well, probably the classics.

I mean, "Charlotte's Web," all those little books, I think they still make 'em, I don't even remember what they're called.

But all the classics mostly.

I think there are a lot more choices now, and I think it's great to have a book read to you, even if it's above your reading level.

I think that's really great to have a child follow along.

Good point.

If I could see your bookshelf at home, what would it say about you?

Oh.

You know, it's kind of funny.

We have bookshelves, but it's, well, we have, Jim has collected some first editions from, you know, classic authors and favorite authors.

So we have that, that's mostly in his office.

And, you know, he's got, I don't even know how many he has.

And, but I was thinking to myself, you know, we have this, you know, relatively large house, but we don't have, I wish we had more space for bookshelves.

So we've gotten some, you can get these kind of really cool stacks where you have the books in there, but you don't really see the shelf.

So we're kind of going that way.

But we're always reading something.

When are you the most productive?

And did you have a particular writing routine?

I mean, I think you're constantly thinking of things, just life experiences.

You don't know when, but once you start, swimming is a good time.

But once an idea gets in there, you just don't know when it's going to lead to something else.

So I talk to my, you know, text myself.

I have like, notes kind of all over the place and I just keep them all together.

But I'm always gathering.

Let's say you're out for a swim, it's silent.

[Susan] Right.

Are you processing what you could possibly write?

Also walking the golf course, another good opportunity.

And sometimes just something that happens in your life, you know, whatever it is you're doing, somebody will say something and you kind of, it may not be what they said, but it makes you think of something that would give you an idea.

What is something that you would tell your younger self?

Here's one thing my mom did tell me that I think is really true.

Accept the things you can't change because sometimes it's hard to get over something, something that happens.

I wish I would've done it this way, or I should have done that.

Or what would've happened if I took this other path?

Whatever.

Think about it and then accept it.

It's hard to do, it's hard to do sometimes.

Your mother was a wise woman.

Yeah, I guess that would be what I'd tell my younger self.

This book was such a huge success.

I mean, maybe you didn't see it coming, I don't know.

I just, it was amazing.

So, everyone that's read it has said, "Is there going to be another one?"

Well, I will say yes, there will be.

It won't be exactly that, but it was some things that I learned from this experience that I feel really touched chord, as I said earlier.

And I also think that, and I'm truly grateful that people that enjoyed it, because, you know, you do wanna think these things and it was such a wonderful experience, I just loved it.

And if nobody bought it, I still would've loved it.

But then when it goes, you know, pub day and you think, "Is somebody gonna buy this?"

It's a real joy, that people could find something in it that they could relate to, I love that.

The book is "Things I Wish I Told My Mother."

Susan Patterson, I cannot thank you enough for sharing your time with me.

Thank you, Ann, I really appreciate it.

I'm Ann Bocock, please join me on the next "Between The Covers."