>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Professor of Brain and Cognitive Science and author Susan Peirce Thompson.

Today, she shares the science behind food addiction, how it affects your brain, and how you can overcome your negative eating habits to develop better self-control.

I'm so glad you're here today, so let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪ And what happens to people that are obese?

In general, what do we see are the challenges that they struggle with, when it starts to creep in more and more?

>> There are so, so many.

So, this is where I have challenges with the health-at-any-size and the body-positivity movements and the, you know, big-size mannequins that we're seeing now and so forth is the research is really strong that being obese is damaging on so many levels.

And it's not just because it's demonized and denigrated in society.

I'm a huge proponent for no fat shaming and no discrimination or prejudice, like, absolutely.

And everybody needs access to good medical care.

And there's good research showing that, you know, when you have obesity, you're not getting access to good medical care.

So that's all problems.

But what we see is mood disorders, right?

Depression, anxiety.

And it's incredibly bad for the brain.

Dementia.

We see rise in 13 different kinds of cancers.

We see heart disease.

We see diabetes.

We see joint problems and musculoskeletal problems, arthritis.

>> Psychologically, what's it do, too?

>> In terms of our self-concept, what happens?

Because a lot -- >> Our self-identity, right?

>> Self-identity.

A lot of this obesity is food-addiction-driven, right?

It's not just that you're genetically predisposed to gain weight.

It's that you're addicted to food.

And so, oftentimes, there's an attempt to address that where you know you're not doing right by yourself with the food you're eating, you know you're not eating in alignment with your values, so you're trying to do something about it, but then you watch yourself fail at that.

Food is wired into our brains in such a way that you can't not eat what your brain is demanding that you can -- that you need to eat any more than you could not breathe the air that your brain thinks that you need to breathe, right?

Like, you couldn't, through sheer force of will, hold your breath and run up 40 flights of stairs.

You couldn't do it.

>> Right.

>> Doesn't matter how much you want to do it.

You extend the time scale out to months and months and months, which is how long it takes to really get your weight off, if you've got a weight challenge, right?

>> It seems so far away.

>> You can't do it.

You can't calorically restrict in the way that most diets are set up to have you do it.

You can't do it.

The brain becomes convinced that you're starving, and it changes your hormonal profile to force you to eat.

But here's what happens.

It makes you think you've changed your mind and decided to eat the nachos and drink the beer and have the pizza.

It makes you think you've changed your mind and decided.

It crawls into your brain and convinces you in your own voice that you've changed your mind, and now you're going to eat in the same way that if you run the experiment and try to run up stairs without breathing, you will believe that, at some point, you decide to take a breath.

>> No, you're forced to.

>> But you will believe that you decided.

>> Yeah.

>> It feels in your brain like you realize, "I can't do this.

This is a stupid experiment or I'm -- you know, I'm not going to succeed."

And you choose to breathe.

But really, what kind of choice is that, right?

It's not -- It's a forced choice.

It's not really a choice.

>> Yeah, either pass out or you have to do it, yeah.

>> You have to do it, right?

Your brain is forcing you to "decide" -- quote/unquote "decide."

And so what happens when you decide to eat that food is you believe that you've let yourself down.

And then, over time, you watch yourself choose to let your -- quote/unquote "choose" -- to let yourself down and you come to conclude that you don't love yourself, that you don't value yourself, that you don't want yourself to be successful at what matters to you in this world, because you watch yourself undermine your really heartfelt, sincere attempts to get that weight off.

>> Right.

>> So, what ends up happening after years and decades of this is profound psychological damage of low self-esteem, self-loathing -- >> Constant failure.

"I can't do this."

Yeah.

>> Constant failure.

Exactly.

This loop of "Why?"

And even with people who are successful in so many other ways, right?

Successfully raising families, great friends.

They know themselves to be kind and loyal people, amazing careers.

The food is a separate, different beast.

It is the hardest -- it is the hardest war out there to get the weight off and keep it off.

>> So it's one of the hardest things to overcome.

You know, it seems like 50% or close to 50% of the population is getting obese now because of the temptation, the access, the marketing, all the cues that hook you into it, the dopamine rush.

Just our bodies are addicted to it.

So how do we break the addiction of sugar and flour?

>> Well, because it's the hardest, it takes a lot, Lewis.

It takes a system.

>> It takes a village.

>> It takes a village.

It takes a system.

It takes more structure and discipline with your eating -- >> So you can't just say, "I'm going to have willpower"?

>> I don't want to say it never works for anyone.

I think that extreme force of will can do amazing things in a human being.

>> So, what are some of the key strategies to cope with food addiction then?

>> So, a bright line is a clear, unambiguous boundary that you just don't cross.

It's actually a legal term.

So, if you go to Wikipedia, a bright-line rule is a rule in law that gets -- It's a rule or a standard that gets applied consistently to produce consistent results, right?

It's just you're always going to apply this rule or standard.

And in his book "Willpower" by Roy Baumeister, he talks about Eric Clapton and Eric Clapton's sobriety and about bright lines for alcohol and drugs and how it's so helpful for willpower to use a bright-line rule like, "I don't drink ever" or "I'm not going to drink tonight if I'm the designated driver.

No alcohol."

And in the book, though, he then says bright-line rules are great for issues of temptation and willpower control, but they won't help with every problem.

The dieter cannot stop eating all food.

And I thought to myself, "Oh, wow.

If Roy Baumeister, who's one of the most preeminent psychologists in the world, is not clear that you can use bright lines for food, we've got a real problem."

Because you can.

You have to eat to live, but you don't have to eat doughnuts to live.

>> Right.

>> You do not have to eat doughnuts to live.

And no sugar, no flour.

And meals and quantities are the other two bright lines.

>> Oh, man, that's so hard for people, too, right?

>> It is.

And it's so necessary, because food addiction is not just a substance addiction.

It's not just the sugar and the flour.

It's a process addiction, too, like gambling or pornography.

>> It's a quantity.

It's a frequency.

>> Exactly.

Right?

So if you're a food addict, you've got a brain that says, "Is it time to eat now?

How about now?

How about a little more?

Are you sure you've got enough?

A little bit more.

A little bit more.

How about now?

A little bit more.

Are you sure you got enough?

How about, you think you need a little bit more?"

And that's true even for a healthy meal.

You can sort of go overboard on the quantities, you know, and I'm not talking a little overboard.

>> You can have a pound of broccoli, which is your thing, right?

>> Roasted Brussels sprouts, man.

I can go to town -- Honeycrisp apples.

Yeah, I can eat a lot of those, right?

>> And that's not healthy if you over-binge on "healthy food" also.

>> Quantities are an issue.

There's actually stretch receptors in the stomach and a brain switch that when you've, like, overeaten, like really overeaten, for a food addict, it's a triggering thing.

It leads to wanting to eat more, not less.

There was an interesting study that showed people ate a little bit and then stopped to answer a question.

How hungry are you right now?

Ate a little bit more.

How hungry are you right now?

A normal eater -- they eat a meal, and their hunger level goes down, down, down, down, down.

And then they get full and they just push the food away.

They reach a point where they're like, "I don't want any more food."

A binge eater is -- gets full, full, full, full, full, hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry.

It's a U-shaped curve, where at the end of the meal, they're as ravenous as they were when they started the meal.

>> Oh, now we got dessert 10 minutes later.

"Let me get some more, even though I'm full."

>> More, more, more.

Exactly.

When you're recovering from this, society pushes against you with its full force.

>> Marketing.

>> All of it.

Like, social pressure.

>> Drink, eat, have some more.

>> Yeah.

And people -- "You're getting too thin."

And it's like, "Dude, I still have 50 pounds to lose.

Yes, I've lost 150, but I'm not too thin.

I still have 50 pounds."

And "You're getting too thin.

Don't lose any more weight."

People that never commented when you were climbing above 300 pounds.

They didn't say anything, but now they're going to harass you about your weight because you're losing weight.

It's -- Our society is pretty bizarre when it comes to weight.

And so we need a community of people who will help you get to your natural right-sized body.

And I'm not the thin police.

I don't think you need to be a certain size or whatever.

But let's be real.

Health is associated with body weight to a significant extent.

>> Yes.

>> And you don't want to be eating in a way that feels like you're hurting yourself, like you're harming yourself with this food that you're eating, right?

So for a lot of people, you know, recovery is where they want to go.

They want to address this problem, get the weight off, and get a brain that's not chattering at them all the time, you know, a brain that's peaceful around food, where you're eating what you want to be eating, your weight is in check, and you're free to live your life finally.

>> Yeah, and you feel an alignment with your -- the highest version of your self-identity.

>> Exactly.

Exactly.

>> You feel like, "Oh, I match where I want to be.

Maybe I could always tweak it and be a little bit better or something if I'm trying to be perfect," which is not reasonable, "but I feel good most of the time about where I'm at," right?

>> Exactly.

It's a Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs thing, right?

Like, that tippy-tip of the top of the pyramid is self-actualization, right?

The striving for self-actualization.

And for a lot of us in this society, we have shelter over our heads.

We have friends.

We have family.

You know, we're working in a way that is, alright, we're making money.

And then so as we look to our self-actualization needs, for a lot of us... >> What's the next problem?

>> ...getting our weight in check is -- For me, that was the first thing that would always come up.

If I was really going to strive to be the best version of myself, I knew the first thing I needed to do was get my food and my weight under control, because it was not -- it was not in alignment.

It was the first thing.

And so what I often say is, the person who's going to solve cold fusion for us is not even working on the equations right now because they're starting their fourth diet this year already.

They're trying to control their eating.

It's something like 60% of us -- 50% to 60% of us are trying to control our weight and our eating.

And we're trying four or five new attempts each year.

>> Different diets.

What's with all the -- There's so many different diets out there, right?

>> So many.

Yeah.

>> How many of them actually work?

>> Well, any of them work if you can stick to them long term.

Most of them aren't set up so that you can stick to them long term.

They don't work with the brain to solve the addiction problem, and so they're not going to work long term, right?

If you're eating Frankenfoods, first of all, if you're eating bars and shakes and powders and, you know, foods with sugar and flour in them, you're going to keep the addiction alive.

And so it's -- You know, your willpower is going to give out eventually.

>> Interesting.

>> It's never going to work.

So you've got to be eating whole real foods and you've got -- You know, even the whole-food, plant-based community that talks about whole real foods -- they're on the "you can eat as much as you want" bandwagon.

Yeah, and they're -- A lot of pasta and a lot of -- And keto and stuff, there's a lot of -- >> A lot of obese plant-based people.

>> Say it again?

>> There's a lot of people who are obese who are only plant-based, too.

>> Yes.

Exactly.

>> There's so much processed plant-based, right?

>> On average, they weigh a little less than the normal population, but not much less.

And so they're talking about, "You can eat as much as you want as long as you're eating the right foods."

But let me tell you, I can sit down with a canister of raisins and cashews and, you know, eat the whole thing, right?

So it's not just that you got to eat plants.

You got to be careful, too, with the dates and the raisins.

You got to be careful on the quantities.

>> A lot of sugar and calories and all that stuff.

>> Yeah, totally.

So it's sugar, flour, meals and quantities, and you need a structured program.

>> So, is it the structured program or is it fighting the addiction first?

>> Well, the structured program is what helps you fight the addiction.

>> It does?

Okay.

>> Yeah.

So, when you adopt the structured way of eating, it's the equivalent of stopping drinking, right?

What you start doing is, you start writing down your food the night before.

>> Of what you're going to eat tomorrow.

>> Yes.

Exactly.

>> Pre-planning the food.

>> Yes.

Breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

According to a specific food plan that has categories and quantities.

And there's a certain way you got to structure your eating to make it successful in restaurants, to make it successful with travel, to make it successful for the long term, to really get the food chatter to quiet down.

And it's structured.

It's a commitment.

And so -- >> It's work.

It's effort.

>> Yeah.

Well, welcome to the world of anything that matters in life.

>> Welcome to discipline.

[ Both laugh ] >> Well, welcome to "The School of Greatness."

>> I know.

I think that's one of the hardest things is being structured, organized, and disciplined with food choices.

I think it's probably one of the hardest things for people, especially if you're busy, especially if you're working a lot, if you travel.

It's so easy to just, "Oh, I need a quick thing," right?

>> That's what society does these days.

We have gone so far on the continuum of unstructured eating, people wake up -- they have no idea what they're going to eat today.

They're going to eat whatever, whenever.

They're just going to fly by the seat of their pants, and they're shocked when it doesn't go well.

>> It's interesting you say this, like pre-planning your food, because, you know, we talk about this in our world of, like, if you want to have the life you want, it's really thinking about the life you want and then pre-planning, "What are the actions I'm going to take today, tomorrow, next week, a month from now to get me closer to that result?"

>> That's right.

>> It's not saying, "Let me just wake up and figure it out today and just go with the flow."

It's having a game plan for some goals.

"Okay, here's where I want to be in 30 days, 60, 90, and a year.

And here's the exact actions I'm going to take, and I'm going to reflect on those actions and see what worked, what didn't work.

I'm going to reassess.

I'm going to make adjustments."

But it's having a game plan for the day.

You know, in business, you're not just like, "I'm just going to show up and hope someone buys my product."

Okay, no, we're going to have a game plan of how we're going to market this, how we're going to deliver this, how we're going to -- how many phone calls and sales calls are you going to do to get the results you want?

It's not a foreign concept in life, but I think it's foreign for people with eating or they don't think about their meals the next day unless they're like, "Oh, I've scheduled a dinner with friends, and we're going to go to this restaurant."

>> Right.

>> But, usually, people just kind of wake up, and they're like, "What do I want to eat now?"

>> Yeah, exactly.

And do I have time?

And, well, they'll get something after, and then you're prey to, you know, what's available, what's quick, what's easy, what's tasty.

If you're making food choices in the moment, your brain is thinking, you know, "Mmm!"

>> That cookie looks good.

Let me eat it.

>> Yeah.

>> Because you don't have a bright line is what you're saying.

You don't have, like, a value system that you're living off of that you say, "I only do this, I never do this" type of structure.

>> Yes.

And so I actually use a digital food scale, and not so I eat tiny portions, actually so I eat enough.

I eat -- I don't know that I eat more than you.

You're a big guy.

>> I eat -- Yeah.

And I train hard, too, yeah.

>> I eat more than most people that I'm around.

>> So, how many calories is that a day?

>> Oh, I don't deal in calories.

>> You don't count calories.

>> I don't count calories.

No, never count calories.

>> Why not?

>> Because I find it obsessive and not helpful.

I have a certain number of servings of protein -- >> You count protein.

>> Yeah.

Well, it's not grams of pro-- Servings of protein.

So I'm going to have so many -- You know, so, my meal structure is like protein, fruit, vegetable, like, cooked vegetable, raw vegetable, fat servings, and I'm going to have some of each of those in each meal.

>> You can kind of mix and match.

>> Exactly.

>> As long as you get certain amount of servings.

>> Structured food plan.

Yep.

>> After the 90 days of the weight loss -- right?

-- or however long it takes you -- >> However long it takes you.

Six months, a year, a year and a half, whatever it takes.

>> Then how to maintain.

>> How to maintain it, how to transition to maintenance, and how to live at maintenance and the psychology of that.

Like, what does it take to go from a fat, food-addicted person in our society to someone in their right body who is contented living that way long term?

What are the expectations that you might have had about what that would be like that may be fulfilled or unfulfilled?

What are the identity shifts that you need to make?

So, you know, typically, it's not something that you're gonna just figure out on your own.

You know, this is the kind of thing where you want to read the owner's manual, actually.

You want to do it for real.

>> Is there such a thing as good sugar?

>> Yeah.

Apples.

Apples.

Like -- >> But isn't there like a lot of sugar in apples now?

It's like the bigger the apple, it's like so much sugar in there and so much fructose, right?

>> Well, so -- >> That'll spike your blood sugar up, too.

>> Not as bad.

So, the fiber and all of the micronutrients and stuff in an apple, it does not spike your blood sugar, but don't drink apple juice.

So it's like, eat the apple, eat the whole real apple.

And so I actually -- I have one pet peeve in life.

I'm not a super-easily annoyed gal, pretty laid-back, but I have one pet peeve, and it's the word "carb."

Carbs.

>> Carbs.

>> When people talk about carbs, it's the worst word in the world.

>> Why?

>> Because it completely conflates, you know, carrots, bananas, spinach -- >> Vegetables.

>> Vegetables and fruits with, you know, bagels and pasta.

You know, and it's like, let's just be clear.

We want to talk about flour and sugar, and the flour is bad, but you don't -- You want to be eating good carbohydrates and a lot of them.

And people are literally confused, thinking it's bad to eat an apple.

And it's like -- They're thinking it's better to eat bacon than to eat an apple.

And I'm like, "Come on, people.

Like, really?"

Right?

It's okay to eat an apple.

Apples are good, right?

Like, so, we need to stop using that word, "carb."

It's just not a helpful word.

>> So, when was the last time you had refined sugar or flour?

>> I think out of the last 20 Thanksgivings, I've eaten sugar and flour on one of them.

>> Oh, wow!

>> Yeah.

>> That is impressive.

>> I really -- Thanksgiving -- And it's interesting because I feel the warmth of that holiday.

And to answer your question directly -- >> The pumpkin pie, the -- >> It's the people, right?

>> You feel it without needing to eat it.

>> I feel it without needing to eat it.

I've learned, I show up to Thanksgiving focusing on thanks and giving.

It's gratitude and service.

So I show up really focusing on the people, really feeling blessed in the company, and -- >> Seeing how far you've come in your life, and -- >> Yep.

And I help in the kitchen.

I get drinks for people.

I play with the kids.

I sit with my grandparents.

>> Are you making sugary foods in the kitchen?

>> Sometimes, if that helps, you know, get the meal out.

Sure.

But I -- The warmth of the meal and the day comes through deeply.

I enjoy Thanksgiving as much as ever.

To answer your question directly, the last time I had sugar or flour was about three years ago.

The longest stretch I've ever gone is eight years.

>> Holy cow!

>> I know people who've done 40 years.

>> That's incredible.

>> Yeah.

>> How does your body feel, you know, how is your metabolism, how is your brain without those things?

>> Sharp.

>> Right.

>> Sharp, man.

It's awesome.

Yeah, it's awesome.

I mean, I feel like -- What I really appreciate most is, I feel like the best version of myself.

The discipline that comes into my life by weighing and measuring my food and having my food in order, I weigh and measure my life, and I know I'm just effective as a human being.

I just was not effective when I was in the food.

>> Right.

>> I was a mess.

>> I mean, one of the people listening and saying, "Man, that just doesn't seem like a fun life.

You know, weigh and measure your food and never, like, even enjoy these treats and desserts and all these different things that people get to make.

And that just seems so strict, and I want to enjoy my life."

>> I totally get that sentiment.

I so get that.

And it can seem so real that that's what makes life worth living.

And, you know, it's the -- It's -- It can seem so real.

What I've found is that one day at a time, it's actually better.

It's -- I think it's the dopamine receptors that say, "No, don't deprive me of my hit.

That's where I get my -- that's where I get my hit.

Don't take away my hit."

But the reality is that life is so incredibly fabulous.

Life is sexy and fun and spontaneous and brilliant.

And food is a poor proxy for connection.

Food is a poor proxy for fun.

Food is a poor proxy for comfort.

Food is a poor proxy for entertainment.

Like, what happens when you don't get it there is you're forced to get it where you're going to get it good.

It's like, let's really go.

>> By going deep into intimacy and connection and relationships and -- >> You learn to suck the marrow out of the moment, out of the person you're with, out of the fun you want to have.

You know, and you're in a sexy, fun body to do it in and you're not dependent on the food.

It's actually better.

>> Man, that's so interesting.

But there are people -- It sounds like there are people that can have a couple bites here and there, and it's not -- >> Yeah, a lot of people.

>> It's not going to affect their weight.

It's not going to affect their mood.

It's not going to affect their -- But if you have an addictive personality for food, then you've got to figure out a good game plan, a structure, a team, a system to support you.

>> That's right.

>> How connected is sugar to depression, anxiety, stress, ADHD, and mental-health disorders?

>> Hugely.

Hugely.

And not just sugar, but also how we eat in general.

Yes, stopping sugar is going to be good for your mood, but research also shows that eating vegetables is really good for your mood.

There was this big study that was done tracking teenagers in Europe that showed that teenagers who eat vegetables today, they're happy tomorrow.

Like, within a day, it kicks in.

Like, they have a good day tomorrow if they eat vegetables today.

Then there's a couple other massive studies that have looked at how much you eat, in terms of vegetables, and it shows a linear relationship with mood and also with the presence or absence of depression and anxiety, where eating no vegetables is terrible for depression and anxiety and for your mood, eating lots of vegetables is great, and it's a linear relationship.

One serving a day is better than none.

Two servings, three servings, four servings, five servings, six servings, up to like seven or eight servings a day, you see the benefits with eating vegetables.

We eat a lot of vegetables in Bright Line Eating.

>> Wow.

>> We literally see a lot of people, you know, with clinical depression and clinical anxiety, you know, seeing it clear up, getting off those meds.

I mean, people get off their diabetes -- These aren't promises.

These are just predictions based on what we see, you know?

But changing how you eat is very, very powerful for the mood and for the brain in general.

>> I got a question that I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths.

So imagine it's your last day on Earth many years away from now.

You get to live as long as you want to live.

You get to accomplish and create what you want to create.

But it's the last day.

For whatever reason, you've got to take all of your message with you -- your book, this interview, your findings, your research, you know, everything you've ever shared with the world.

For whatever reason, it's got to go with you to the next place.

But you get to leave behind three lessons, three truths with the world from all the things you've learned.

What would be those three truths?

>> Food addiction is real.

Not every brain is equally affected.

And for people who are affected, a plan of structured eating is going to produce a lot of freedom.

>> Mm-hmm.

Final question for you.

What's your definition of greatness?

>> Living true to oneself.

I'm just a big fan of to thine own self be true.

You know, people are different.

People are different.

And I love it when people answer their soul's calling and live true to themselves.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.