>>This week on NewsNight, Governor DeSantis endorses an effort to reign in challenges to books in public schools.

And Florida ramps up its deployment to the southern border with National and state Guard personnel in Texas amid an intense debate over immigration.

NewsNight starts now.

[MUSIC] Hello, I'm Steve Mort, and welcome to NewsNight where we take an in-depth look at the top stories and issues in central Florida and how they affect all of us.

First tonight, Florida lawmakers are considering implementing changes to the way books can be challenged in public schools.

Speaking in Orlando last week, Governor DeSantis accused what he called, quote, bad actors of politicizing the book review process to create a narrative in the media.

He calls the idea of book bans a hoax.

>>To just have random people come in who don't even have kids in the school system and just start objecting to things just to try to gum up the works.

That is not something that we should be incentivizing in this state.

And so I'm working with the legislature to ensure that we're prioritizing the voices of parents, but that you can't just come in and try to throw sand in the gears just to make a political statement.

>>Well, it all stems from a 2022 education transparency law, which supporters say aims to give parents the right to make decisions about what reading materials their children are exposed to in schools and file objections.

Since then, in school districts around the state, the sheer volume of titles caught up in the review process has prompted calls for a shake up.

Not all books are removed from shelves, pending investigation end up being banned of course.

Many are put back.

But free speech organization PEN America says Florida's restricted more books than any other state.

Krystel Knowles reports on developments in Brevard County, where a rally was held before a recent school board meeting.

>>High school senior Anjani Sharma hopes to leave her mark on Brevard county before graduating.

She recently organized a protest over the removal of books from school libraries.

>>We advocate against academic censorship and against other groups in getting conservative ideology into our schools.

>>Sharma's efforts are backed by Brevard Students for Change and Youth Action Fund, a progressive nonprofit.

She hopes she can make a real difference to the county school system.

>>It should really just be a place for us to learn, read books, learn about different society, different perspectives without political biases and political discussions in our classrooms.

>>Despite the protest, board members removed another book from shelves in a 4 to 1 vote.

>>Roll call, please.

>>Miss Jenkins.

>>Nay.

>>Miss Campbell.

>>Aye.

>>Miss Wright.

Aye.

>>Mr.

Trent.

>>Aye.

>>Mr.

Season.

>>Aye.

>>Board member Katie Campbell says each challenged book is carefully evaluated and only material considered too explicit is removed from school libraries.

>>We're not trying to take our material from our students that's hard to deal with.

We're just trying to take away a material that is very explicit and that just doesn't belong.

>>In Brevard county, anyone can challenge a book.

Then it's reviewed by a citizens appointed committee for its content.

They will make a recommendation whether or not to keep the book.

And the final vote goes to the school board members.

Kasey Meehan from the Free Speech group PEN America says Florida tops the list in the numbers of book bans across school districts.

>>We have recorded over 1,400 instances of book bans.

And and unsurprisingly, we also see the way in which Florida's topping the list of bans across school districts.

So 37 school districts in Florida have removed at least one book.

And in a state with approximately seven school districts and 70 school districts, that means that over half of Florida school districts are experiencing book bans.

>>According to PEN America's Research, books featuring LGBTQ themes and characters of color are most commonly removed.

But Katie Campbell says Brevard County focuses on explicit content, rather than targeting specific demographics.

>>There is a difference between hard things and graphic sexual content, and I don't think that we should ever be removing things because they're hard to deal with because then we'd be removing things like how slaves were treated.

And we haven't had any books challenged because of that.

>>Meanwhile, as Sharma awaits her 18th birthday, she says she'll continue to advocate for change, asserting that state laws on books and personal agendas have no place in classrooms.

>>Youth are at the frontline of this, and it's unfortunate that we can't, like, you know, vote.

But also it's not something that we should just sit down and let our parents handle for us.

>>Meanwhile, a legal battle is under way.

A judge recently allowed a lawsuit to proceed against Escambia County, where hundreds of books have been challenged and removed from shelves.

>>Krystel Knowles reporting there from Viera.

Well, let's bring in our panel now to break it all down.

Joining us in the studio this week, Scott Maxwell, opinion columnist at the Orlando Sentinel.

Good to see you, Scott.

>>Nice to be back.

>>Thanks for coming in.

Appreciate it.

Beth Kassab, editor of The Winter Voice.

Good to see you both.

>>Yeah, thanks for having me.

>>And Jason Garcia writes The Substack "Seeking Rents" also has a podcast of the same name.

Thanks for being here, Jason.

>>Thanks.

>>Really appreciate it.

Beth let me just start with you on this one and the new legislation on book challenges.

What are lawmakers considering there?

>>So a couple of changes are up for consideration.

And let's keep in mind, first, Florida leads the country in book bans.

And even Governor DeSantis has tacitly admitted that this has become completely out of control.

So one of the measures being considered now that's getting attention is that there would have to be some parameters around the people challenging these books and they could actually be fined under certain circumstances if they challenge too many and the challenges aren't approved or the books aren't pulled.

So they have to be parents of the district.

And if they're not and they challenge at least five unsuccessfully, they could be levied a fine.

>>Well, let's talk a little bit about the reaction here, Jason.

I mean, there are objections, right, to this legislative effort on the right from from those who have been involved in challenging books in some districts.

I mean, do Democrats welcome the changes?

How does this pan out?

>>Yeah, I think I think there's sort of uniform agreement among Democrats that they'd like to sort of reel in some of these book ban challenges, particularly because so much reporting has come out that almost all of it is coming from a handful of folks on the right that are challenging just hundreds of books.

So there's a lot of support on among Democrats for it to reel that stuff in, you know, and it's just part of a larger issue with a lot of these laws are being passed with with what are these culture war in education laws are being passed with this idea of what what they say is supposed to be a very narrow intent, but then are written very broadly and vaguely and creating all sorts of problems all across all across the educational spectrum.

So I think there's a big push to reel some of that stuff in >>You've written about this issue, Scott.

I mean, the governor's asking the Department of Education to sort of act to to prohibit bad actors, as he puts it, in schools.

What do you think about whether this is an issue about an abuse of process or is it as as Beth said, you know, a tacit admission that book restrictions have gone too far?

What do you think?

>>I think it is an admission, but I think this law is working exactly as it was intended to work.

Whether the governor admits that or not, it was designed to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry with an ideological ax to grind to come and file.

>>But he says that's not what it was.

>>Yeah, that well, that he didn't read his own bill and I did and everybody else did.

And that's kind of the irony about this, is what is happening right now is exactly what was predicted.

This is not a surprise.

And it's because of what Jason said.

It's written really broadly.

It says books should be censored that just contain like sexual conduct.

Well, okay.

If a if a story like Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God has a rape scene in it, that's definitely sexual contact.

And Zora Neale Hurston has been challenged and that's why those books are being pulled off the shelves.

This is not a surprise to anyone except those who were not paying attention and those that argue being really disingenuous.

>>Our reporter Krystel Knowles has been reporting from Brevard County.

I mean, some of the school board members there are welcoming this change because they say there have been efforts to gum up the works, that actually they are non-parents, oftentimes that are that are putting in these challenges.

So the governor to an extent, though, doesn't he, Scott, has a point there, right, that this isn't going as we wanted.

>>Maybe not as he wanted because there are classics being banned.

It's worth noting that while there are a lot of these books banned, they are still disproportionately like LGBTQ topic banned books that that was the target.

That's what they were trying to target, as Jason mentioned, with the like when they went after the drag queens, they wrote a bill that said it would ban shows that pertain to shameful interest.

That was the term they used.

Member of the committee asked Randy Fine if he could define shameful.

He literally could not.

I mean, he babbled for about 15 seconds and then ultimately he suggested the members of the committee consult the dictionary for the bill he wrote.

So I think they're taking these broad swipes and like a come back to sort of what's held up, there's like a book like "Genderqueer."

I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but it's a it's a graphic-- >>It's been a book that's been talked about a lot.

>>It's sort of the one that is hailed as the is the sort of the one that we should keep out of schools.

Well, first of all, it's not in schools for the most part.

It was in some class, in some schools at some point in time.

A few parents said, what the heck is this book doing here?

And the reason it's so flagged, and I'd say rightfully so as a parent, is it has some graphic illustration of sexual acts.

Parents complained and it was taken out.

It was taken out before this law was passed.

Governor DeSantis admitted at that press conference that we just showed viewers that no one's arguing to have that book in there anymore, but it's still held up as as sort of the the the the the straw man that they are trying to fight, even though what we're really talking about is banning books by, you know, John Steinbeck, John Grisham-- >>John Green.

>>John Green here from here in Orlando and having stupid debates over whether it's actually a ban.

>>And of course, the governor disputes the use of the term book ban.

>>Absolutely.

>>Right.

Because the books are not being banned in Florida-- >>Except they are being-- >>Just for a certain.

>>They're being scrutinized completely-- >>From the school.

>>Right.

He was saying, I think his issue would be I think it's another straw man argument, like if guns are banned in school, we say there's a gun ban and nobody freaks out about it.

But, yes, if you want to say they have not been banned, no one has ever argued that they are have made it illegal to publish or for Barnes and Noble to sell them.

But if they don't have access to them in schools, they have been banned in those schools or for those grades and certain grades and certain.

>>And just finally on this one, Beth, I mean, I wanted to touch on the fact that some school districts have removed books, not just because people have objected to them, but because their peers in other school districts have done something similar.

Is that something we're seeing?

>>It is.

There's been some reporting this past fall.

Right.

So school districts are going ahead and yanking titles from shelves just because another district has done so.

There's a group called PEN, like a Freedom of Information First Amendment group that's involved in the lawsuit over this very issue.

And they had done a series of public records request.

And it turned out that Seminole County and a bunch of other counties are doing this.

So Seminole County right here has taken 31 books off the shelf just because another district did so that's not even their own review or complaints from their own parents.

>>And if I could add one thing that we haven't mentioned, the reason schools are doing this in Orange, it was 673 books.

Seminole County was actually 97 books at one point in time is because this law very specifically threatened public school officials with arrest, a third degree felony if they leave a book that contains sexual conduct accessible to children.

So teachers are saying, read your own law, you've threatened me with arrest.

That's why I have to take John Grisham and Zora Neale Hurston away from my students.

>>Well, talking about reading the law, you can find a link to the bill that adds limits to book challenges on our website.

You'll also find more of Krystel's reporting on the issue there, too.

It's all at wucf.org/newsnight.

Okay.

Next tonight, lawmakers are considering whether to give the governor more power over when and where he can deploy the state guard, including beyond Florida's borders.

That follows the governor's recent move to dispatch Florida National and state Guard volunteers to Texas to tackle what he calls the Biden border crisis.

The deployment is in support of a Texas effort to guard the border known as Operation Lone Star, which is at the center of a clash with federal immigration authorities.

Well, with immigration reform stalled in Congress, Florida has already sent highway patrol troopers and others to the US-Mexico border.

The Florida legislature recently confirmed the new director of the Florida State Guard, Mark Thieme, who was asked about the out of state deployment by Osceola County Senator Victor Torres.

>>Were you involved in that and did - you work for the governor so I'm sure that you're not going to say no to the governor, but what was the give and take on that, sending our troops over there?

>>Sir, I am not involved in the governor's decision making, but I do execute those decisions once made.

We have we are currently the Florida State Guard.

We are under an emergency activation authority which was received the day before his press conference in Jacksonville.

And so the scope of those responsibilities will be by with and through the Texas Department of Military Affairs.

What I believe to be the scope of responsibilities are likely to be in the realm of checkpoint operations, supporting patrol, supporting distributed logistics, those types of activities where the Texas National Guard and the Texas State Guard and the Texas authorities are under under capacity in various areas.

>>Director of the State Guard there.

Jason, why do legislators want to pass this new language on out-of-state deployments?

I mean, the governor says he's already allowed to do it.

>>Yeah, this is actually a really interesting issue because there was a bill in the legislature, and we know from public records that it was written by the governor's office or it came from the governor's office that would have given him unilateral authority to deploy the guard whenever he wanted it made it crystal clear he could send it over state, even given them like broad legal protections for guards members who get accused of civil rights violations or criminal acts while on duty.

But that legislation has actually been rewritten and essentially gutted.

So it would do none of those things anymore, which is sort of a you know, one of the big questions of this session has been is, is Ron DeSantis still the boss of Tallahassee?

And this.

Yeah, yeah.

This sort of suggests maybe he's not right now.

The fact that they have backed away from this because this is something he wanted to get done.

But as of right now, it doesn't look like it's going to get done.

>>Interesting.

I mean, the governor, Beth, has echoed, I guess, Governor Abbott in Texas sort of saying that the states have the right to defend their sovereignty.

But the US Supreme Court says the federal government right has the has the authority to enforce the border.

It just recently ruled that.

Does the issue tee up, do you think sort of a larger debate about the power of the states to push back against the federal government in this case on the military basis?

>>Yeah, it certainly looks like we're seeing the makings right now for a larger case.

And yes, there was a bit of a split decision on the Supreme Court, but what they said was that, yes, in fact, Border Patrol, federal border Border Patrol officers can take down razor wire or other barriers that Texas erected to end in order to get access to people who had already crossed the border.

>>And Governor DeSantis specifically talked about Florida personnel helping with razor wire.

>>Right.

And so, yes.

So I think you're absolutely right.

This is teeing up a larger battle over this.

>>I mean, the governor faults the president, Scott, for for not doing enough at the border.

Do you think there is a a national audience for this message that the governor is putting forward on this?

>>Absolutely.

And I think most people would concede there's there's there are immigration issues that this country needs to deal with.

We haven't had comprehensive reform of any kind.

And we seem to be handling it just as people come.

But the governor's fight is wildly disingenuous.

He doesn't need to travel to Texas if he wants to deal with undocumented immigrants according to everything, including the agriculture's own industry, 50% of their workers are undocumented.

That's right here in this state.

And I can ask you or tell you that the number of employers I've seen the governor crack down on, I can count on zero fingers.

Those are the people encouraging undocumented workers to come here.

They're profiting off undocumented workers.

They're exploiting, in many cases, undocumented workers.

Governor DeSantis would love to keep this debate focused on Texas because it overlooks what his donors are doing benefiting from here in Florida.

>>Well, that's interesting.

You mentioned that.

I mean, lawmakers have passed a pretty extensive piece of legislation right in the previous session on undocumented immigration.

Do we get a good sense yet, guys, about how that is playing out across the state?

>>Well, I would just like to bring up the idea of what hospitals are being asked to do, because there's a very big difference between preventing people from coming over the border and implementing some regulations there and then caring and providing basic human aid to people who are already living and working in this community.

And as Scott said, the local businesses here are relying on these individuals.

But now in many cases, we've heard from advocates and hospitals across the state that people are resisting going in for medical treatment because the hospitals who take Medicaid are being asked that they must ask patients about their immigration status and people are afraid that they could be deported or face some other penalties if they're truthful about that.

>>Because the state says nobody is going to be denied care.

>>Right.

So pregnant women, you know, people who might have serious chronic illnesses, are not seeking the care that they need.

And that's just hurting people right here in the community.

>>Well, immigration continues to be a big issue, of course, on the national presidential campaign level as well.

We want to hear what you think.

Be sure to join the conversation on social media, we're at WUCF TV on Facebook, X, and also on Instagram.

Okay.

Finally tonight, we wanted to talk about a question that many political watchers have been trying to get a handle on since Governor DeSantis dropped out of the presidential race, the influence he'll now wield over politics and policy in Florida for the rest of his term.

Since returning from the campaign trail, the governor has been back holding regular press conferences around the state, endorsing and criticizing various bills.

So, Jason, let me come to you first on this one.

You wrote last week about whether or not the governor is still setting the agenda in Tallahassee or simply following it.

What do you think?

>>Yeah, I think to be clear, we don't know yet, but it sure looks like he's following the agenda more than setting.

What I mean by is he's gotten back into the habit of calling a bunch of press conferences almost every day to to talk about some issue.

But in almost every case, he's talking about stuff the legislature is already doing.

He's sort of setting a bar that he can't help but clear right now.

There have not been situations like we've seen in past years where he has sort of he has forcefully made the legislature do stuff it might not otherwise do.

And I think one of the big tests will be on this social media ban that I know Scott's written a lot about.

This is the one place-- >>For people under 16.

>>Yeah.

Yeah.

That would essentially deny kids under the age of 16 from having social media accounts.

>>Even with parental-- >>Even with parental consent.

Right.

This is the one place the governor has sort of gone out on a limb a little bit.

He sort of made a bunch of noise like he might he might veto legislation like that if it passed.

Now, he hasn't explicitly said it.

He's left himself plenty of cover to sort of scurry back and sign it if it does pass.

But that that'll be an interesting test to see if he really does have influence over the legislature.

>>He seems to be reassembling his government team, right?

I mean, he he reappointed Christina Pushaw to his-- >>Yeah the band's back together on the taxpayer dime.

>>This week.

He also was in South Carolina, in Indiana this week pressing for that constitutional convention on term limits.

I mean, what do you think he's up to?

Can we read anything into what he's doing and what his goals are for the remainder of his term?

>>Yeah, I think I think it is clear and going to South Carolina, getting back involved in this Texas stuff.

He's not running for president anymore.

He's still sort of shadow running for president.

I think the entire Republican Party is aware that Donald Trump is in a really precarious position because of all the legal challenges.

So I think what you are seeing is, is Ron DeSantis couldn't beat Donald Trump, but what he's trying to do now is sort of slide along in a shadow campaign in case something happens to Donald Trump so he can jump back in.

So we're essentially seeing a shadow presidential campaign.

>>The incoming speaker of the Florida House, Scott, is sort of talked about exerting more independence for for the legislature.

Do you think it's going to become trickier for the governor now to convince lawmakers that his priorities should be the priorities they follow?

>>I don't think so.

I Jason and I may disagree a little bit on this.

I've never seen them.

And I do mean never actually stand up to the governor when push comes to shove on these things.

They've basically been his puppets.

They know that while he does not speak to the entire state, he's got a rabid base and he won by a giant margin here in Florida.

So I think he's still the man in charge of this state.

The social media is going to be interesting.

He may end up defending that because of his buddy, Elon Musk, as somebody once suggested to me.

But yeah, I think we haven't seen him lose sway.

The bottom line is, even if he's not running the shadow campaign for 2024 for this year, as as he very well may be, as Jason mentioned, he's all but said he's still interested in 2028 and that's why he keeps talking about national issues, because that's what gets him in national press and also because he doesn't want to talk about state issues like our insurance, which is awful or our SAT scores, which are like 48th in the nation.

So he's going to keep talking about the you know, he's talking about the Texas border.

For that reason.

>>The governor has expressed some skepticism about that social media bill, and it's still progressing.

Right.

>>It is.

And I think to Jason's point, I think that I think that leads to whether he really will veto.

And also I think it leads to whether any of these folks actually care about the legislation they're passed.

I think a lot of it's performance art.

It's you get to scream about social media and Mark Zuckerberg and it doesn't really matter.

We show we've we've proven that they don't really care about the impact.

The legislature's own staff analysts flagged this bill as probably unconstitutional that you can't tell adults that they don't have the permission to tell their own children.

They can't have a Facebook account to follow National Geographic for their social studies.

I mean, this will get struck down.

I'm not a lawyer, but I say that with a lot of confidence.

So I just think a lot of this is performance art for him.

>>Yeah.

And that-- >>Some legislation, though, is is intended legitimately to provoke a court challenge, right?

I mean, that is a strategy.

>>That's exactly right.

Yeah.

I mean, we've seen that, you know, one of the bills Ron DeSantis tried to get through the legislature a couple of years ago was designed to provoke a challenge over a defamation of liability or libel protections for journalists.

Right?

Yeah, that is sometimes a strategy.

You know, there's nothing in sort of the way folks have been discussing this social media ban that that looks like they're trying to intentionally provoke a challenge here.

This and the other thing, I don't think I don't think we know if Ron DeSantis' influence has waned.

What I what I'm suggesting to you is he is not acting like a guy who has influence right now.

Every fight he is picking is a fight he can't lose because it's not really a fight right now.

He's acting like a guy who is mostly concerned about not getting embarrassed right now.

>>I mean, can we read anything into the fact that we're sort of seeing fewer anti woke bills passed?

The Senate president has said that these the bills on Confederate monuments, flags, pronouns and things appear to be dead for this session.

Can we read anything into that, do you think?

>>Yeah, I think a little bit.

So there's there's obviously been a leadership vacuum in the legislature.

And I think one of the things you've got a leadership vacuum.

While Ron DeSantis was essentially living in Iowa for a year.

And I think one of the things you've seen is the big business lobby has sort of stepped in to fill that, where I think the big fights this year are around, you know, like weakening child labor laws, rolling back wage and benefit protections for workers, making it harder to get unemployment insurance, that sort of thing.

So I don't think it's right to say those culture war bills have gone away.

They've probably they've probably been de-emphasized just because, you know, the legislature only has so much like emotional energy.

They can only do so many.

>>But I think even Steve is right that, yeah, there was a day two years ago, I think the Confederate monument bill would have sailed right on through.

This time they did tap the brakes.

But I haven't seen anything that would suggest generally Florida is about to move to a milder, gentler version of itself.

Except except for that, they do seem more focused on the business bills.

>>Final word to you, Beth, I mean, have you seen a shift in this legislative session?

Well, it certainly seems like it.

I tend to wonder if it's not because, you know, in under this theory that he's running continuing to run a shadow campaign, that some of these issues simply do not play well outside of Florida.

And I think that's become more abundantly clear.

I mean, Scott mentioned how much of a landslide the governor won by last time.

That's true.

But there he has gone so much farther since that election.

I question how many people would still be on board with some of the things that we're seeing and just the philosophical inconsistency.

Right.

Like they can decide carte blanche what your kid can read and can't read.

But then over here, when it comes to vouchers, it's all about parental choice and school choice and all of those things.

And there's just there's just, you know, those things don't add up.

And I think more people might be taking a look at that.

And certainly on the national level, there's some there's some pushback there.

>>Well, really interesting discussion.

And I really appreciate you guys coming in.

I'm afraid we've we've run out of time, but something of a Sentinel reunion today.

Always nice to see you guys.

In the meantime.

Be sure to visit us online for more on all the stories you've seen on the show tonight at wucf.org/newsnight along the bottom of your screen.

But that is all the time we have for this week.

My thanks to Scott Maxwell, Beth Kassab and Jason Garcia.

Thank you so much for coming in, guys.

We'll see you next Friday night at 8:30 here on WUCF.

In the meantime, for all of us here at NewsNight, take care and have a great week.