>> Laura: DR. LANE, WELCOME.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE NEW  BOOK.

>> Dr. Lane: THANK YOU, GOOD  TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: THANKS.

THIS BOOK CENTERS AROUND THE OFFICE OF THE TERRITORIAL  ENGINEER, WHICH IS THE PRECURSOR TO THE STATE  ENGINEER, AND THE ROLE OF COURTS AND  JUDGES AND MOVING WATER AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED  HERE AND TOWARD AND INTO THE CONTROL OF ANGLOS.

SO, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IDEA BECAUSE EVEN HERE  ON THE SHOW ALL THE TIME WE TALK ABOUT WATER MANAGEMENT  AS THOUGH IT'S KIND OF THIS NEUTRAL TERM, BUT IN FACT  IT'S NOT REALLY NEUTRAL.

HOW DID, AS YOU WRITE IN  YOUR BOOK "WATER  MANAGEMENT," PROVIDE THE KEYSTONE FOR A BROADER  STRUCTURE OF DISPOSSESSION?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, SO IN  THIS BOOK WHICH IS A HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY, SO  FOCUSING ON BOTH HOW THINGS CHANGE IN TIME AND IN SPACE,  LOOKING AT SPECIFICALLY AT CHANGES THAT HAPPENED IN HOW  WATER WAS MANAGED IN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT I'M REALLY TRYING TO FOCUS ON ARE THESE POINTS OF  CHANGE, RIGHT?

THE TRANSITION THAT  HAPPENED.

AND TRANSITIONS CAN HAPPEN  QUICKLY AND THE IMPOSITION OF A NEW POLICY OR LAW, BUT  THEY ALSO CAN HAPPEN SLOWLY IN TERMS OF HOW PEOPLE THINK  ABOUT WATER MANAGEMENT OR THINK ABOUT WHAT'S RIGHT OR  THINK ABOUT WHETHER THEY SHOULD FOLLOW THE POLICY OR  NOT FOLLOW THE POLICY.

SO, I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN  THE COMPLEXITY OF HOW THESE CHANGES HAPPEN.

AND WE KNOW THAT NEW MEXICO HAS A LONG HISTORY OF  COLONIALITY.

THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT WAVES  OF COLONIZERS WHO COME INTO THIS REGION AND TAKE CONTROL  OVER TERRITORY AND RESOURCES FROM PEOPLE WHO PRE-EXISTED  THEM.

AND I AM TRYING TO SHOW THAT  WATER MANAGEMENT WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF HOW  THIS COLONIZATION HAPPENED WHEN IT COMES TO THE ANGLO  WAVE OF COLONIZATION, WHICH HAPPENED AFTER THIS REGION  BECAME PART OF THE UNITED STATES TERRITORY.

SO, STARTING IN THE LATE 1800s AND THEN GETTING UP TO  THE POINT WHERE MY BOOK REALLY FOCUSES, THE TURN OF  THE CENTURY AND LEADING UP UNTIL STATEHOOD, WATER  MANAGEMENT BECAME A TOOL OF TAKING TERRITORY, AND TAKING  NOT JUST TERRITORY BUT CONTROL DECISION-MAKING OVER  RESOURCES.

AND IT WAS DONE IN A REALLY  SPECIFIC WAY, AND I TRY TO GET A LOT INTO THE DETAILS  OF THE POLICY AND IMPLEMENTATION IN THE BOOK.

BUT TO SHOW THAT WAS PART OF DISPOSSESSION.

IT WASN'T JUST LIKE HEY, HERE'S SOME GREAT NEW  METHODS FOR HOW WE CAN BE MORE EFFICIENT WITH OUR  WATER USE.

IT WAS REALLY ABOUT SAYING,  THIS FORM OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WATER IS NO LONGER VALUED.

AND THIS NEW FORM OF SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE IS  GOING TO BE VALUED, AND WE'RE ONLY GOING TO CARE  ABOUT THE THINGS WE CAN MEASURE WITH THIS NEW FORM  OF KNOWLEDGE.

AND THAT GIVES US A NEW  SYSTEM AND IT GIVES A NEW FUTURE REALLY FROM THAT  POINT FORWARD TO NOW THAT DISPOSSESSED CERTAIN PEOPLE  AND EMPOWERED CERTAIN OTHER PEOPLE AND ISN'T NEUTRAL.

>> Laura: YEAH, ONE OF THE THINGS I'M REALLY STRUCK BY  WITH YOUR RESEARCH AND THIS BOOK AND MULTIPLE EXAMPLES  THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK IS HOW IRRIGATION ENGINEERS ARE ALL  ABOUT EFFICIENCY, AND ANGLO WATER USERS WERE BY AND  LARGE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE LANDSCAPE.

AND THERE ARE LOT OF EXAMPLES OF HOW THEY'RE  EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT.

YET THAT KNOWLEDGE OF ANGLOS  WAS GIVEN THE HIGHER PRIORITY BY JUDGES AND  COURTS.

HOW DID THAT PLAY OUT  HISTORICALLY AND HOW DOES IT STILL -- THE IMPACTS OF THAT  PLAY OUT TODAY STILL?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, I HAVE AN  ENTIRE CHAPTER ON EXPERTISE AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE  IDEA OF EXPERTISE OVER WATER.

AND I THINK IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THAT EXPERTISE  BECAME -- IT BECAME SYNONYMOUS WITH A KIND OF  PERSON.

LIKE EXPERTISE IS  CONSTRUCTED AS A PERSONAL CHARACTERISTIC NOT AS SOME  OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENT.

IT'S LIKE THESE PEOPLE ARE  EXPERTS AND THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT EXPERTS.

SO, THAT WAS ANGLO WHITE PEOPLE WERE EXPERTS AND  NON-ANGLO NON-WHITE PEOPLE WERE NOT EXPERTS.

AND WHERE THAT COMES FROM IS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF  PROGRESSIVISM, YOU KNOW CAPITAL "P" PROGRESSIVE  PARTY TURN OF THE CENTURY WAS ALL ABOUT EFFICIENCY AND  RATIONAL MANAGEMENT OF RESOURCES, WHICH BROUGHT US  A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE REALLY VALUE AND STILL VALUE  TODAY INCLUDING THE NATIONAL  FOREST, AND THE NATIONAL PARKS AND ALL THIS IDEA OF  SETTING ASIDE LAND AND MANAGING IT REALLY  RATIONALLY SO THAT EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT.

AND IT WOULDN'T JUST BE USED UP.

BUT, IT INTRODUCES SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS REALLY  PROBLEMATIC.

AND I REALLY TRY TO EXPLORE  IN THIS BOOK, WHICH IS THIS IDEA THAT WE CAN ONLY MAKE  DECISIONS ON THIS RATIONAL BASIS, OTHERWISE THEY'RE BAD  DECISIONS.

AND SO, PEOPLE WHO HAVE  MATHEMATICS TRAINING, OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE HYDROLOGIC  TRAINING ARE CONSIDERED LIKE THE NEW EXPERTS ON WATER  MANAGEMENT.

AND THE UNBELIEVABLE THING  THAT'S UNRECOGNIZED, AT LEAST IN THIS TIME AND IN  THE HISTORICAL RECORD, IS THAT YOU HAVE LAND-BASED  PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS REGION WITH GENERATIONS AND  GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS OF KNOWLEDGE PASSED DOWN  ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, ENVIRONMENTAL  CHANGE, WATER FLOW, WATER USE, WATER MANAGEMENT, AND  THEY'RE NO LONGER EXPERTS BECAUSE THE NEW EXPERTS HAVE  TO HAVE DEGREES IN HYDROLOGY OR DEGREES IN FORESTRY, OR  DEGREES IN MATH, OR WHATEVER.

AND THAT'S A REALLY, LIKE ON THE FACE OF IT LOOKING BACK,  IT'S LIKE REALLY THESE PEOPLE COMING IN ARE THE  ONES WHO KNEW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THIS REGION,  OR ABOUT WATER.

AND MOST OF THEM ARE  EASTERNERS, FROM THE EASTERN U.S., AND DIDN'T UNDERSTAND  PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND ARID CONDITIONS LIKE THESE  GENERATIONAL RESIDENTS DID.

SO, WHAT AN INTERESTING  IRONY THAT EXPERTISE GETS CONSTRUCTED BASED ON THIS  PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AS BEING THE  EDUCATED WHITE PEOPLE FROM THE EAST WHO WERE IN FACT  COMING INTO A LANDSCAPE THAT THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT AND  HAD HIGH LEVELS OF IGNORANCE AND THE FIRST TERRITORIAL  ENGINEER, IRRIGATION ENGINEER IS WRITING IN HIS  REPORTS ANNUALLY TO THE GOVERNOR LIKE OUR BIG  PROBLEM IS THESE NEW PEOPLE COMING FROM THE EAST ARE  TOTALLY WASTING WATER.

THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT  THEY'RE DOING.

THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT HOW  IGNORANT PEOPLE WERE AND SAYING WHITE PEOPLE ALONE  HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO MANAGE WATER.

WHICH WAS JUST HOW PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THINGS AT THAT  TIME WITHOUT REALLY ADDRESSING THE RACISM THAT  LAYS BEHIND IT.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

THIS BOOK IS BASED ON INCREDIBLE HISTORICAL  RESEARCH, INCLUDING COURT RECORDS.

WHY WERE YOU LOOKING AT COURT RECORDS AND DID THEY  SHOW?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, SO I WAS  INTERESTED IN LIKE HOW DID POLICY CHANGE, BUT ALSO HOW  DID IT AFFECT PEOPLE'S DAILY LIVES.

AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND  PEOPLE'S DAILY LIFE, PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE OUT ON A LAND  USING WATER, MAKING A DECISION ABOUT SHOULD I  IRRIGATE THIS FIELD OR NOT IRRIGATE THIS FIELD, OR HOW  SHOULD I HANDLE THE FACT THAT A FLOOD JUST CAME  THROUGH IN THIS ORCHARD I JUST PLANTED IS AT RISK,  THERE'S NOT LOT OF DOCUMENTARY RECORDS TO HELP  US UNDERSTAND THAT.

SO, I CAN GO AND GET ALL THE  OFFICE OF THE ENGINEER, I CAN GO AND GET ALL THE  REPORTS.

I CAN LOOK AT ALL THE  REPORTS THE GOVERNOR TO THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR.

I CAN GET ALL THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND LEARN A LOT  ABOUT HOW THEY THOUGHT ABOUT KNOWLEDGE AND WHAT WERE  THEIR GOALS POLICY-WISE AND MANAGEMENT-WISE AT THE THAT  TIME.

BUT I CAN'T FIND -- THERE'S  NO BOOK OF REPORTS ON THIS FARMER OR THAT FARMER.

SO, COURT RECORDS FELT TO ME LIKE A WAY OF ACCESSING  INDIVIDUAL STORIES.

SO, I WENT AND PULLED -- SO  LOOKING AT ALL THE COUNTIES ALONG THE RIO CHAMA, RIO  GRANDE EXTENT IN NEW MEXICO AND THE COUNTY BOUNDARIES  WERE DIFFERENT THEN OF COURSE, BUT I LOOKED AT THE  12 YEARS BEFORE STATEHOOD, 1900-1912.

WENT THROUGH ALL THOSE COUNTIES AND PULLED EVERY  SINGLE COURT CASE THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WATER AT  THE DISTRICT COURT.

WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN AT  THAT TIME THE LOWEST LEVEL COURT THAT WOULD HAVE HEARD  A WATER DISPUTE, AS AN EFFORT TO GET AS CLOSE  AS POSSIBLE TO SOME OF THOSE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND  HISTORIES.

NOW, IT'S NOT A COMPLETE  RECORD, RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU AND I COULD HAVE  A WATER DISPUTE AND NEVER HAVE A COURT CLAIM OVER IT.

AND IT NEVER WENT INTO ANY KIND OF RECORD.

AND MAYBE WE DID HAVE A WATER DISPUTE, IT WENT INTO  THE RECORD AND I GOT IT OUT OF THE ARCHIVES AND I READ  IT, BUT A LOT OF DOCUMENTS WERE MISSING  INCLUDING MAYBE THE FINAL RESOLUTION.

SO, IT IS AN INCOMPLETE SOURCE, BUT IT'S A WAY AT  GETTING AT THOSE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND UNDERSTANDING  REALLY WHAT WERE THE PAIN POINTS OR WHAT WERE -- HOW  WERE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT WHAT WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO  THINK ABOUT WATER, TO THINK ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE.

WE CAN READ A LOT OF THAT IN THE COURT RECORDS, SO THAT'S  WHY I WENT TO THOSE.

AND THAT WAS ABOUT 180 COURT  CASES FROM THAT REGION FROM THAT TIME PERIOD, WHICH IS A  PRETTY ROBUST RECORD, I THINK.

>> Laura: SO YOUR BOOK IS NOT PRESCRIPTIVE, BUT I'M --  I'D LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHO SHOULD READ  THIS BOOK, OR WHO DO YOU HOPE READS THIS BOOK, AND  WHAT ARE SOME OF THE LESSONS WE REALLY NEED TO BE  THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?

>> Dr. Lane: WELL, I THINK  THIS IS -- THIS BOOK SHOULD BE READ BY PEOPLE WHO ARE  JUST STUDENTS OF NEW MEXICO HISTORY.

AND PEOPLE WHO AREN'T LOOKING FOR EASY SOLUTIONS  BECAUSE THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS PROPOSED IN THIS  BOOK.

AND IN MY PERSONAL OPINION,  EASY SOLUTIONS ARE ALWAYS FALSE SOLUTIONS.

I MEAN, THIS IS REALLY -- THIS BOOK IS JUST TELLING A  STORY OF HOW COMPLEX THE CONDITIONS ARE THAT GIVE  RISE TO CERTAIN POLICIES.

AND IF WE GO BACK AND LOOK  AT HOW DID THIS ACTUAL POLICY DEVELOP, WE CAN SEE  EVERY STEP OF THE WAY IF WE LOOK AT IT REALLY -- WE CAN  SEE THE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE, THE SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE, THE  SPECIFIC POLICY ELEMENTS THAT PRODUCE SOMETHING AT A  CERTAIN TIME.

BUT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN  OTHER OPTIONS AT THAT TIME.

IT COULD HAVE GONE A  DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

IT DIDN'T, AND SO WE END UP  ON THE PATH THAT LEADS US TO TODAY.

BUT I THINK IT'S HOPEFUL TO THINK ABOUT HOW COULD THINGS  HAVE GONE DIFFERENTLY AND TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY DID  THEY GO THIS WAY.

BECAUSE THEN THAT HELPS US  THINK ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY IN THE  FUTURE.

SO, I'M NOT A POLICY  ANALYST, AND I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE A JUDGMENT ON, YOU  KNOW, WHO SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF WATER OR HOW  SHOULD WE MANAGE WATER.

BUT I REALLY THINK THE  LESSON THAT I LEARNED AND THAT I'M TRYING TO IMPART TO  READERS IS THAT IF WE TAKE A SINGLE POLICY OR A SINGLE  APPROACH LIKE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OR ENGINEERING  POLICY, FOR EXAMPLE, AS THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO CREATE  PERFECT WATER MANAGEMENT, WE WILL BE WRONG.

LIKE, I THINK -- WHAT I SEE FROM ALL OF THESE STORIES IN  THIS BOOK IS THAT WE HAVE TO REALLY THINK BROADLY ABOUT  HOW CAN DIFFERENT FORMS OF KNOWLEDGE COME TOGETHER.

HOW COULD WE CREATE AN ENVIRONMENTAL FUTURE THAT  WASN'T DISPOSSESSIVE BASED ON A SPECIFIC POLICY THAT  EXCLUDED THE EXPERTISE OF AN ENTIRE RACIAL OR ETHNIC  GROUP OF PEOPLE.

THAT WE COULD DO THAT, IN  THE PAST WE DIDN'T, BUT I THINK IT'S HOPEFUL TO THINK  ABOUT HOW THERE'S NOTHING SET IN STONE ABOUT THESE  PAST CHOICES.

SO, I HOPE A LOT OF PEOPLE  WILL READ IT.

IT'S GOT A LOT OF DENSE  HISTORICAL DETAIL, BUT ALSO SOME REALLY INTERESTING  STORIES.

AND I THINK ADDS A LOT TO  OUR HISTORICAL UNDERSTANDING OF NEW MEXICO.

>> Laura: YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

I HOPE THAT LOTS OF WATER MANAGERS AND STUDENTS.

AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THE WORK IN THIS BOOK.

AND I'M THANKFUL THAT YOU'RE ON THE SHOW TODAY.

SO, DR. LANE, THANK YOU.

>> Dr. Lane: THANK YOU.