>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY THE  MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION  AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, WE CONTINUE TO DRILL DOWN ON THE BIDEN  ADMINISTRATION'S CLIMATE CHANGE PLAN.

>> Chermak: I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK ANY FURTHER THAN  SOME OF THE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS THAT WE HAVE BEEN  SEEING THAT MANY WOULD ARGUE ARE EXACERBATED BY CLIMATE  CHANGE.

>> Gene: AND IT'S TAX SEASON.

WE TALK TO THE SPONSORS OF THE BILL THAT AIMS TO CLEAN UP THE  STATE'S TAX CODE AHEAD OF MAJOR REFORM.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANTS.

HOW MUCH TIME DOES NEW MEXICO  HAVE LEFT WHEN IT COMES TO RELYING ON OIL AND GAS TO  BOLSTER THE STATE'S REVENUES AND WHAT COMES NEXT?

WE'LL TALK TO A UNM ECONOMIST TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THOSE  QUESTIONS AND THE IMPACT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S  APPROACH TO HUMAN CAUSE TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE LINE WILL FOLLOW THAT  CONVERSATION BY LOOKING AT THE INCREASINGLY CONTROVERSIAL  NOMINATION OF THE CONGRESSWOMAN DEB HAALAND FOR  HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR.

WE'LL ALSO TALK ABOUT PNM'S DARK MONEY PLAYS AND HOW THAT  STATE'S ETHICS COMMISSION FORCED THE UTILITY TO DISCLOSE  HOW MUCH IT IS SPENDING TO ELECT THE MEN IT PREFERS.

WE START WITH WHERE SO MANY OUR MINDS ARE THESE DAYS, THE  COVID VACCINE.

HERE IS THE LINE.

AS OF NEXT WEEK, NEW MEXICO WILL GET ABOUT 72,000 VACCINES  FROM THE FEDERAL SUPPLY LINE.

WHILE IT'S AN INCREASE,  CERTAINLY, THAT WEEKLY ALLOTMENT IS NOT ENOUGH.

THE STATE IS VACCINATING EVERYONE IT CAN GET ITS HANDS  ON LITERALLY, BUT RIGHT NOW THERE ARE FAR MOR WAITING ARMS  THAN SHOTS TO STICK THEM IN.

OUR LINE OPINION PANEL THIS  WEEK WILL EVALUATE THE STATE'S PLAN AND HOW IT IS CHANGING AS  NEW PROVIDERS LIKE WALGREEN'S AND CVS COME INTO THE PICTURE.

JOINING US IS A TRIO OF LINE REGULARS, FORMER STATE  SENATOR, DIANE SNYDER IS BACK.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

HER FORMER COLLEAGUE FROM ACROSS THE AISLE, DEDE FELDMAN  RETURNS AS WELL.

AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT  LEAST, FORMER HOUSE MINORITY WHIP DANIEL FOLEY CHECKS IN.

SENATOR SNYDER WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN WITH YOU, WHAT DO YOU  MAKE OF THE HUNT FOR VACCINE AND HOW THE STATE IS  ADDRESSING IT?

JUST THAT SIMPLE, CURIOUS OF  YOUR OPINION.

>> Diane: I THINK IT IS  HORRIBLE, ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE.

ONCE YOU'RE THERE AND GETTING  YOUR SHOT, IT WORKS SMOOTHLY AND THE PEOPLE ARE EFFICIENT  AND THEY ARE KIND AND GRACIOUS BUT I HAVE TO USE SOME  PERSONAL EXAMPLES OF THINGS I HAVE SEEN.

I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME OR I HEARD  CONVERSATIONS OR SEEN FACEBOOK POSTINGS WHERE THEY HAVE  SHARED THEIR EVENT CODE AND GOTTEN IN TO GET THEIR SHOTS  AND THEY DON'T MEET THE TOP CATEGORY.

THE TOP CATEGORY IS OVER 75 OR -- 74, I BELIEVE, OR OVER  65 WITH AN UNDERLYING CONDITION.

ONE OF THE THINGS -- >> Gene: 75.

>> Diane: NO?

NOT RIGHT?

>> Dede: WELL, THE SECOND PART IS THAT YOU CAN BE OVER 16 BUT  HAVE AN UNDERLYING CONDITION.

>> Diane: YOU ARE RIGHT.

ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

WELL, I REGISTERED ON JANUARY 5.

I REGISTERED MY MOTHER A WEEK LATER.

TWO DAYS LATER SHE GOT HER CODE AND SHE IS 94.

OKAY, SO WE WENT GOT HER SHOT.

SHE IMMEDIATELY GOT HER  SECOND.

WE HAVE GOTTEN HER SECOND.

I AM STILL WAITING TO GET AN EVENT CODE.

AND I AM OVER 16, OBVIOUSLY.

I HAVE AN UNDERLYING  CONDITION.

>> Gene: BARELY OVER 16.

>> Diane: I AM ON CHEMOTHERAPY.

I HAVE ANOTHER SERIOUS UNDERLYING CONDITION WITH MY  HEART AND I AM 72 YEARS OLD AND I STILL HAVEN'T BEEN  CONTACTED.

I TRIED CALLING, AN  HOUR-AND-A-HALF ON THE TELEPHONE WITH NO ANSWER.

GAVE UP THEN.

I HAVE SENT THREE EMAILS AND  FINALLY GOT ONE BACK THAT SAID, SORRY, YOU'LL JUST HAVE  TO WAIT YOUR TURN.

NOT ADDRESSING AT ALL MY  ISSUES AND MY CONCERNS BECAUSE I AM ALSO MY 94-YEAR-OLD  MOTHER'S CARETAKER AND I DON'T WANT TO BRING THINGS HOME FOR  HER.

I HAVE FOUND OTHERS SIMILAR TO  ME.

I KNOW OF WHERE ONE SPOUSE HAS  GOTTEN IT AND THE OTHER HASN'T SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING  ON WITH THE SYSTEM OF IDENTIFYING WHO GETS THE SHOT.

BUT, WHEN I TOOK MOTHER TO GET HER SHOTS, WE WENT DOWN TO THE  PIT.

THAT IS WHERE HER PLACE WAS.

I NEVER SAW SO MANY PEOPLE IN THEIR 40'S EARLY 50'S, PEOPLE  GETTING SHOTS AND THIS WAS BEFORE WE STARTED DOING  TEACHERS AND SOME OF THE ESSENTIAL WORKERS.

I MEAN IT WAS -- IT IS JUST TERRIBLE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW -- >> Gene: I AM HEARING SIMILAR  THINGS SENATOR AS WELL, FOLKS IN LINE SEEING OTHERS WHO ARE  NOT IN THAT PLACE.

YOU KNOW, DAN, LET ME ASK YOU  THIS.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS ABOUT 35%  OF OUR FOLKS OVER 75 HAVE BEEN AT LEAST GOTTEN THE FIRST SHOT  ALREADY.

THAT IS NOT A WHOLE LOT  CERTAINLY.

YOU PUSH IT UP AGAINST WHAT  SENATOR SNYDER JUST MENTIONED IN HER STORY ABOUT HER AND HER  MOM, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW THIS IS ROLLING OUT?

IS THE GOVERNOR ON TOP OF THIS?

OR NOW AT THE POINT NOW WE GOT WALGREEN'S AND CVS, IT IS OUT  OF HER HANDS NOW?

>> Dan: THIS WHOLE PROCESS,  REGARDLESS OF WHAT POSITION YOU'RE IN POLITICALLY, IS KIND  OF A BUCKET OF WORMS.

IT IS ALL KIND OF THE FIRST  TIME, FIRST NEW, YOU KNOW.

I THINK THAT PEOPLE FORGET AND  WHEN THEY START TALKING NATIONALLY THEY TALK ABOUT WE  HAVE ALL THESE DOSES IN NEW MEXICO AND THEN YOU START  WORRYING ABOUT THE INTERNAL NEW MEXICO FIGHT BETWEEN RURAL  AND URBAN, TRYING TO GET THAT STUFF OUT.

HOW DO YOU GET PEOPLE IN WAGON MOUND THE SHOT AND YOU EXPECT  THEM TO DRIVE DOWN TO ALBUQUERQUE?

THE SHOTS ONLY LAST SO LONG.

THERE IS DATE CODES KEEPING THEM FROZEN, AT UNBELIEVABLE  TEMPERATURES.

>> Gene: WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF  THE STATEMENT FROM OUR SECRETARY DESIGNATE TRACY  COLLINS WHO SAID PROVIDERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING AND  FOLLOWING PHASE REQUIREMENTS?

IS SHE PASSING THE BUCK HERE?

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> Dan: IT DEPENDS, RIGHT, WE  HEARD THE SAME THING FROM GOVERNOR DESANTOS IN FLORIDA  WHEN THE GOVERNOR KIND OF GOT PIGEON HOLED BY CNN SAYING  THERE IS PEOPLE SLEEPING OUTSIDE.

WHOA, WHOA, HOLD ON A SECOND, WE ARE NOT VACCINE  DISTRIBUTORS, AS THE GOVERNMENT.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS SO WE WENT TO THE TIME PLACES  THAT DO THIS AND SAID, OKAY, TELL US WHAT YOU NEED AND  PROVIDING IT TO YOU.

IF THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DOING  IN NEW MEXICO, IF WE ARE GOING TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE  THIS BEFORE AND THEY ARE DROPPING THE BALL, THEY SHOULD  BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT STILL THE INDIVIDUALS WHO CHOSE THEM  HAVE THE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY, RIGHT?

THE BUCK STOPS WITH THE GOVERNOR AND ADMINISTRATION.

SO, I THINK THERE IS SOME VALIDITY TO THE STATEMENT, YOU  KNOW, IS THE GOVERNMENT THE ONES DEPLOYING -- I MEAN, YOU  GOT TO GET IT RIGHT, DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T.

IF YOU DECIDE TO TAKE OVER THE INOCULATION PROCESS YOURSELF,  HEY, I AM GOVERNOR, I AM GOING TO IMPLEMENT AN INOCULATION  PROCESS, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW DO THAT.

IF YOU GO TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR FOLKS AND SAY, LOOK,  YOU'RE THE GUYS WHO DO THIS -- >> Gene: I HEAR THAT.

>> Dan: I DON'T THINK THAT HELPS RURAL NEW MEXICO.

>> Gene: THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE THAT.

DEDE, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WE HAVE SUCH A LONG WAY TO GO.

800,000 PLUS STILL NEED TO BE VACCINATED IN OUR STATE AND WE  ARE NOT EVEN THAT POPULOUS A STATE.

YOU CAN SEE WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

I ASK AGAIN IS THE GOVERNOR IN A BIT OF A PICKLE HERE NOW  THAT THESE OTHERS ARE JUMPING IN?

CAN SHE CONTROL ALL OF THIS AND KEEP IT IN HER HANDS?

>> Dede: I THINK THAT IS THE CHALLENGE TO USE A CENTRALIZED  SYSTEM THAT IS CONSISTENT, THAT IS SCIENCE AND ETHICALLY  BASED, BUT AND MAKE SURE THE COMPUTER SYSTEM IS HOOKED INTO  THE DISTRIBUTORS, WHETHER THEY BE HOSPITALS OR CLINICS OR  PHARMACIES.

THIS HAS TO BE COORDINATED  WITH SOME SORT OF CENTRAL LIST.

THERE IS SOME PROBLEMS THERE.

IT IS OBVIOUS.

BUT LET ME JUST SAY THAT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE COMPLAINTS  BECAUSE OF THE FEAR THAT FOLKS HAVE OF THIS DISEASE.

ANYONE THAT HAS NOT GOTTEN THE VACCINE WILL BE UNHAPPY WITH  THE SYSTEM AS IT EXISTS NOW.

IT IS JUST THE NATURE OF THE  BEAST BECAUSE WE ALL WANT IT AND THE SUPPLY IS LIMITED.

AND, SO, ROLLING IT OUT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE VERY, VERY  DIFFICULT.

>> Gene: WE HAVE SEEN  REPORTING ABOUT NEW MEXICANS GOING TO AMARILLO TO GET  SHOTS.

TEXAS IS GIVING FOLKS 65 AND  OVER.

COME AND GET IT, NO HARM, NO  FOUL.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO YOU ARE.

IS THAT A BETTER SYSTEM?

>> Dede: I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS  A BETTER SYSTEM.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE, IN NEW  MEXICO, STATISTICALLY HAVE VACCINATED MORE OF OUR  POPULATION THAN ALL BUT THREE OTHER STATES.

SO, WE HAVE GOT TO REALIZE THAT WE ARE DOING SOMETHING  RIGHT HERE.

>> Dan: I WAS TALKING TO A GUY  YESTERDAY WHO IS PARTIALLY IN NEW MEXICO AND PARTIALLY IN  CALIFORNIA.

HIS FAMILY   STILL IN NEW MEXICO.

HE REGISTERED IN BOTH STATES AND GOT THE SHOT FASTER IN NEW  MEXICO THAN HE DID IN CALIFORNIA.

SO HE DROVE OUT, GOT HIS FIRST SHOT, WENT BACK TO HIS HOME IN  PALM SPRINGS, CAME BACK THE OTHER DAY TO GET A SECOND  SHOT.

I THINK THERE IS A COUPLE  THINGS.

I AM NOT BEING AN APOLOGIST  FOR THE GOVERNOR.

I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY,  YEAH, WE HAVE HAD 800,000 PEOPLE VACCINATED BUT LOOK --  >> Gene: 800,000 LEFT TO GO.

>> Dan: DIANE RAISES A GREAT  QUESTION, RIGHT?

SHE IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

NO ONE CAN CALL INTO QUESTION WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HER,  RIGHT?

WITH ALL THE UNDERLYING  CONDITIONS, WHY IS SHE NOT GETTING IT.

MORE IMPORTANTLY WHY IS SHE GETTING A RESPONSE THAT SAYS,  POUND SAND.

WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER AT  THE END OF THE DAY WE ARE A STATE OF 1.8 MILLION PEOPLE OF  WHICH OVER A MILLION PEOPLE DO NOT LIVE IN THE URBAN AREA.

THEY LIVE IN OUTLYING AREAS AND THOSE -- IT IS HARD TO GET  SOMEONE LIKE DIANE'S MOM, IF SHE LIVED IN WAGON MOUND, TO  GET THE TIME, TO GET THEM HERE, GET HER INTO A PLACE,  GET THIS DONE AND SO, I THINK YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK WE GOT  800,000 PEOPLE OUT OF 1.8 MILLION LEFT TO VACCINATE,  I AM NOT SURE THAT IS REALLY A FAILING GRADE TO THE EXTENT  THAT YOU HAVE GOT A MILLION OF THE 1.8 POPULATION --  >> Gene: YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT ON THE RURAL PART OF OUR  POPULATION.

THE JOHNSON AND JOHNSON VACCINE, SPECIFICALLY,  IT IS ONLY ONE SHOT AS WE KNOW, AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT  OF HEALTH SAYS IT IS MUCH EASIER TO GET TO RURAL AREAS,  BETTER SHELF CHARACTERISTICS FOR UNDER-SERVED POPULATIONS.

DEDE, IS THIS A GOOD SOLUTION?

WHEN I SAY GOOD, IT IS IN  FINGER QUOTES BECAUSE THE PERCENTAGES ARE NOT AS GOOD AS  THE DOUBLE SHOT DOSE.

>> Dede: WELL, THAT REQUIRES  PEOPLE IN THE RURAL AREAS TO HAVE PATIENCE, YOU KNOW, WHICH  IS IN VERY SHORT SUPPLY RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK JUST TO GO BACK TO EARLIER AN POINT IN TERMS OF  THE INJUSTICES OR INCONSISTENCIES OF THE CURRENT  SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT THE STATE IS  RELYING ON A RANDOMIZED SELECTION PROCESS WITHIN EACH  CATEGORY TO DISTRIBUTE APPOINTMENTS WHICH IS THE  REASON WHY SOME FOLKS THAT HAVE VERY SERIOUS CONDITIONS  HAVE NOT -- BUT DO QUALIFY FOR THIS ROUND OF SHOTS, ARE NOT  CALLED YET.

SO, THIS RANDOMIZED PROCESS, I  THINK, IS CREATING SOME PROBLEMS BUT I AM NOT SURE  THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER WAY TO DO IT.

TO BE FAIR.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES  TO PEOPLE OVER 75 ALSO, I THINK IT IS 44% OF THE PEOPLE  WHO HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF IT NOW.

AND I THINK YOU HAVE TO FACTOR IN SOME OTHER THINGS AND THAT  IS QUITE A FEW OF THOSE FOLKS DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO A  COMPUTER.

AND DON'T HAVE A GREAT  ADVOCATE LIKE A DAUGHTER LIKE DIANE.

AND SO THEY HAVE NOT HAD THE HELP THEY NEED TO GET THOSE  SHOTS.

>> Gene:   END IT THERE.

>> Diane: ONE QUICK THING.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WALMART AND ALL THOSE PHARMACIES.

WELL, ON FEBRUARY 4, I HAPPENED TO HAVE AN  APPOINTMENT AT PRESBYTERIAN FOR SOMETHING ELSE AND WHEN I  CAME IN, THEY SAID, WE HAVE VACCINE TODAY WOULD YOU LIKE  TO HAVE A SHOT?

AND I SAID, YES.

BUT IT WAS LUCK OF THE DRAW THAT THEY HAD IT THAT DAY.

AND THEY REPORT IT BACK INTO THE STATE AND, YES, NOTHING ON  THE WEBSITE ON MY LISTING HAS CHANGED.

BUT, SO I WOULD LIKE -- I MEAN, PRES.

HAS GOT OFFICES,  AND THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE, ALL OVER THE STATE.

>> Gene: IT IS ABOUT THE REPORTING UP.

WHEN YOU GO TO THE WALGREEN'S SITE IT KICKS YOU TO THE STATE  SITE.

THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS GOING  ON THERE.

IT IS DIFFICULT.

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK WITH THIS GROUP AND WE ARE  BACK IN A FEW MINUTES TO TALK DEB HAALAND'S NOMINATION AND  HER HEARING COMING UP NEXT WEEK.

WE CONTINUE TO COVER HOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S ACTIONS  ON CLIMATE CHANGE MIGHT AFFECT NEW MEXICANS.

THIS WEEK, CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS CATCHES UP WITH UNM  ENERGY ECONOMIST JANIE CHERMAK TO TALK ABOUT OIL AND GAS I  BELIEVED STRICTURE CLIMATE CHANGE AND WHAT IT WILL TAKE  FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY JOBS TO BALANCE THE INEVITABLE LOSSES  FROM OIL AND GAS AS THAT INDUSTRY DECLINES IN THE  COMING YEARS.

>> Laura: WE ARE HEARING THAT  SOME OF THE PROVISIONS IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S  EXECUTIVE ORDER AND ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE MIGHT AFFECT  THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

IS THE PAUSE ON SOME FEDERAL LEASES A BLOW TO THE STATE'S  INDUSTRY?

>> Chermak: I THINK IT COULD  BE.

AND THE REASON I SAY IT COULD  BE IS JUST IT DEPENDS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAUSE RIGHT  NOW AND THE IMMEDIACY OF IT, THERE PROBABLY IS NOT A BIG  IMPACT.

PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE THE  PAUSE RIGHT NOW IS A PAUSE ON LEASES AND A PAUSE ON NEW  DRILLING APPLICATIONS, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

RIGHT NOW NEW MEXICO HAS A NUMBER OF DRILLING  APPLICATIONS THAT WERE APPROVED AND SO IN THE SHORT  RUN, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A TREMENDOUS  IMPACT.

LONGER TERM, DEPENDING UPON  WHAT THE PAUSE ENDS UP BEING AND WHAT THE PROVISIONS ARE,  IT COULD CERTAINLY IMPACT, ESPECIALLY, I THINK, THE  PERMIAN BASIN.

>> Laura: IS IT REALISTIC OF  THE THINGS I HAVE HEARD THAT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY MOVE  THEIR OPERATIONS TO THE TEXAS SIDE OF THE BORDER?

IS THAT A REALISTIC FUTURE?

>> Chermak: WELL, YOU KNOW,  OIL IS WHERE YOU FIND IT.

IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS I  WOULD SAY AND SO CERTAINLY TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY PERHAPS  CAN MOVE TO THE TEXAS SIDE AND THEY HAVE PLACES TO DRILL AND  TO PRODUCE, THAT COULD CERTAINLY BE THE CASE.

I MEAN ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT NEW MEXICO IS THAT THERE IS A  FAIRLY HIGH LEVEL OF FEDERAL LANDS AND SO I THINK THAT IS  ONE OF THE PIECES THAT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY IS WORRIED  ABOUT IS THE FACT THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF FEDERAL  LEASING, SO, YOU COULD SEE IF THERE IS A CHANGE IN THE COST  TO PRODUCE OIL ON THE NEW MEXICO SIDE, YOU COULD SEE  SOME PRODUCERS MOVING TO TEXAS, IF IT WERE MORE, YOU  KNOW, AMENABLE TO THEIR PRODUCTION.

OR IF IT WAS LOWER COST.

YOU COULD SEE THEM MOVING OUT  OF THE PERMIAN BASIN IF THAT WAS A BETTER DEAL OR BETTER  OUTCOME FOR THEM AS WELL.

>> Laura: NEW MEXICO FOR A  LONG TIME HAS BEEN MOVING TOWARDS MORE RENEWABLE ENERGY  SOURCES AS A PART OF OUR ELECTRIC GRID, AS PART OF THE  ELECTRICITY SOURCES.

AS WE TALK MORE AND MORE ABOUT  HAVING TO DIVERSIFY THE STATE'S ECONOMY, ARE THESE  RENEWABLE JOBS, ARE THEY EQUAL TO WHAT THE OIL AND GAS  INDUSTRY HAS BROUGHT TO THE STATE'S ECONOMY?

WHAT DOES THE FUTURE LOOK LIKE WITH RENEWABLES IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Chermak: I AM GOING TO SOUND LIKE A ECONOMIST BECAUSE  I AM GOING TO SAY IT DEPENDS.

IT DEPENDS ON A LOT OF THINGS.

IF YOU LOOK AT A LOT OF RENEWABLES, IF YOU LOOK AT  RENEWABLE GENERATION AND LET'S TAKE A WIND PLANT A SOLAR  VOLTAIC PLANT, GENERATION AREA.

BUILDING THAT HAS A  NUMBER OF JOBS.

AFTER THAT, MY UNDERSTANDING  IS THAT THE OPERATION REQUIRES MUCH LESS.

THAT CERTAINLY IS NOT GOING TO BE A ONE TO ONE.

ANYTHING THAT WE WOULD SEE IN TERMS OF JOB CREATION IS GOING  TO HAVE TO BE ASSOCIATED MORE, I THINK, WITH A NEW ENERGY OR  RENEWABLE ENERGY ECONOMY WHERE IT MAY BE BUILDING EQUIPMENT  OR IT MAY BE OTHER AREAS, BUT IF YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AT  TAKING SOMETHING WHERE YOU EITHER HAVE SOMEONE WORKING IN  A FOSSIL FUEL GENERATION PLANT OR IN THE OIL AND GAS  INDUSTRY, THAT ONE IS GOING TO BE A HARD THING TO SAY, THAT,  YES, WE, WILL HAVE EQUAL NUMBER OF JOBS IF WE ARE JUST  TALKING ABOUT NEW GENERATION PLANTS.

I THINK THAT IS MAYBE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT YOU SEE IN  PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CLIMATE INITIATIVE ARE PLANS WHERE  THEY DO TALK QUITE A LOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC  REVITALIZATION.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS GOING  TO BE A GAP IN JOBS AND SO IT JUST DEPENDS WHERE THOSE JOBS  ARE GOING TO BE.

>> Laura: ONE OF THE THINGS  THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE LIFE OF THE OIL AND GAS  INDUSTRY, WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT THE  GREEN HOUSE GAS EMISSIONS FROM THAT INDUSTRY AND CONSUMPTION  OF OIL AND GAS LEAD TO CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE IS A STRAIN ON  WATER SUPPLIES, THERE ARE IMPACTS ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND  THE ENVIRONMENT.

HOW MANY YEARS DO YOU  ANTICIPATE WE HAVE LEFT OF SO-CALLED BOOM TIME OIL AND  GAS IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Chermak: I THINK AGAIN IT  DEPENDS ON HOW WELL THE INDUSTRY, THE STATE AND THE  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, QUITE FRANKLY, WORK TOGETHER.

IN MY OWN OPINION, I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE SEEN  OVER THE HISTORY OF OIL AND GAS, NOT ONLY IN THE STATE OF  NEW MEXICO BUT ACROSS A NUMBER OF STATES IN THE UNITED  STATES, THAT THERE HAS BEEN A POWER STRUGGLE WHERE WE ARE A  MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE STATE REVENUES AND SO WE NEED TO BE  PROTECTED.

AND IT HAS NOW COME TO THE  FOREFRONT THAT, YES, THERE ARE GREAT ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF THE  OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY BUT AS YOU SAY THE CLIMATE CHANGE  PROBLEM AND ASSOCIATED EXTERNALITIES WITH BURNING  FOSSIL FUELS IS A TREMENDOUS PROBLEM.

AND SO TO HAVE A  BOOM TIME, PERHAPS THAT BOOM TIME LOOKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT  THAN WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

IS THERE A WAY TO CONTINUE TO  HAVE FOSSIL FUEL BUT TO WORK TOWARDS REDUCING THE GREEN  HOUSE GAS EMISSIONS?

I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS  THAT WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA THAT MAYBE WE CAN JUST GO  TO THE RENEWABLE ENERGY FUTURE.

QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T SEE THAT SMOOTH TRANSITION WITHOUT  FIGURING OUT WAYS TO INCORPORATE THE OIL AND GAS  INDUSTRY INTO THAT AT LEAST FOR SOME PERIOD INTO THE  FUTURE.

>> Laura: DO YOU HAVE ANY  SENSE OF WHETHER THERE IS ACKNOWLEDGMENT WITHIN THE OIL  AND GAS INDUSTRY THAT THINGS ARE CHANGING AND THAT, YOU  KNOW, WE ARE LIKELY NOT TO SEE THE SAME FUTURE AS THE  PRESENT?

>> Chermak: I THINK YOU CAN  LOOK TO SOME OF THE FIRMS.

YOU CAN LOOK TO BRITISH  PETROLEUM AS AN EXAMPLE AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY HAVE  DONE IN THE LAST, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE ONE TO TWO YEARS,  I WOULD SAY, IS THEY REDUCED DOWN THEIR EXPLORATION STAFF.

REDUCED THAT FROM 700 PEOPLE WORLDWIDE DOWN TO 100.

AND THEY ARE MOVING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION SO I THINK  THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE SEEING, THOSE TRADITIONAL  OIL AND GAS FIRMS, ESPECIALLY SOME OF THE MAJORS, ARE  BASICALLY DIVERSIFYING.

THEY ARE MOVING INTO OTHER  AREAS, MOVING MORE INTO RENEWABLE ENERGY AS WELL.

SO, I WOULD SAY THAT, YES, THEY MAY NOT PUBLICLY  ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BUT I THINK A LARGE NUMBER DO SEE THAT THERE  ARE CHANGES ON THE HORIZON.

>> Laura: WE FOCUSED A LOT ON  THE OIL AND GAS PROVISIONS OF THE BIDEN CLIMATE CHANGE  ORDERS.

I AM CURIOUS IF THERE IS  ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT SPARKED  YOUR INTEREST OF HAVING IMPLICATIONS FOR NEW MEXICANS.

>> Chermak: WELL, STAYING WITH THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY,  ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WOULD BE, I THINK, A GREAT NEGATIVE  IS ONE OF THE PROVISIONS OF THAT IS TO REDUCE SUBSIDIES TO  FOSSIL FUELS AND THAT CAN'T BE DONE BY EXECUTIVE ORDER  BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT IS CODIFIED IN OUR TAX CODE,  FEDERAL TAX CODE.

THAT WOULD CERTAINLY CHANGE  THE COST STRUCTURE TO THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

IT WOULD MAKE IT MORE EXPENSIVE ACROSS THE BOARD BUT  THAT WOULD NOT BE A POSITIVE FOR THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

I THINK THAT ALSO HAS SO MANY POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS AND  FIGHTS PROBABLY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE THAT THE CHANCES  OF THAT HAPPENING OR COMING FORWARD ARE FAIRLY SMALL.

I THINK OF SOME OF THE GENERAL PROVISIONS IN TERMS OF,  PERHAPS, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID BEFORE, THE ECONOMIC  REVITALIZATION OF LOOKING AT AREAS THAT EITHER HAVE BEEN  FOSSIL FUEL DEPENDENT OR IN OTHER WAYS WOULD BE IMPACTED  BY A CLIMATE INITIATIVE WOULD BE ONE OF THE PIECES.

I THINK IN GENERAL, THOUGH, WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT  THAT THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND THIS CLIMATE CHANGE INITIATIVE  REALLY IS THAT RECOGNITION THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK OUTSIDE  OF JUST THE PRIVATE COSTS AND BENEFITS, IF YOU WILL, OR  PROFITS OF THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY OR THE FOSSIL FUEL  INDUSTRY AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT THE SOCIETAL COSTS  HAVE BEEN IN TERMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

CERTAINLY, ANYTHING THAT WOULD RESULT IN A SLOW DOWN OR  REDUCTION OF EMISSIONS, WHICH WOULD IMPROVE THE OVERALL  CLIMATE SCENARIO THAT WE HAVE GOING FORWARD, WOULD HAVE TO  BE A POSITIVE.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK  ANY FURTHER THAN SOME OF THE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS THAT WE  HAVE BEEN SEEING THAT MANY WOULD ARGUE ARE BEING  EXACERBATED BY CLIMATE CHANGE AND SAYING ANYTHING TO REDUCE  THAT WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE IMPACT ON THE STATE OF NEW  MEXICO.

>> Laura: DR. CHERMAK,  APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> Chermak: THANK YOU.

>> Gene: THE WOMAN WHO IS LIKELY TO OVERSEE THE BIDEN  ADMINISTRATION'S RESOURCE EXTRACTION POLICY IS NEW  MEXICO CONGRESSWOMAN DEB HAALAND.

HER FIRST COMMITTEE HEARING IS NEXT WEEK AS SHE WORKS TOWARD  SENATE CONFIRMATION.

AS ENVIRONMENTALIST AND FIRST  NATIVE WOMAN TO HEAD A FEDERAL LANDS AGENCY, MS. HAALAND'S  NOMINATION WAS CHEERED BY PROGRESSIVES AND OTHERS IN THE  DEMOCRATIC PARTY BUT OPPOSITION TO FRACKING HAS  CONSERVATIVE WESTERN SENATORS FROM MONTANA TO WYOMING VOWING  TO OPPOSE OR EVEN ATTEMPT TO BLOCK HER NOMINATION.

DAN, DO YOU SEE ANY CHANCE OF THAT.

CAN SENATORS DO THAT OR WILL PRESIDENT BIDEN HAVE TO BACK  OFF THE NOMINATION?

>> Dan: THERE IS ISSUES WITH  HER JUST SLIDING THROUGH THE NOMINATION PROCESS.

I THINK IT IS GREAT TO HAVE A NEW MEXICAN.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS IS A PROBLEM YOU'RE  SEEING A PROBLEM RISING WHEN -- YOU'RE SEEING THIS  PROBLEM EXACERBATED, WHICH WE HAVE BECOME MORE AND MORE IN  TUNE WITH THIS CULTURE OF IDENTITY POLITICS.

THE PROBLEM BEING, I AM GOING TO NOMINATE SOMEONE BECAUSE  THEY FIT IN THE BOX, BUT I AM NOT SURE WHETHER THEY CAN DO  THE JOB, HANDLE THE QUESTIONING, BE THE INDIVIDUAL  THAT DOES THAT REALIZING THEY DO A BUNCH MORE STUFF.

I AM NOT SURE HOW SOMEONE -- THE DOI DOES A LOT MORE THAN  JUST WORKS WITH NATIVE AMERICANS.

IT IS A BIG PART, THE TRIBAL PORTION, BUT YOU'RE TALKING  ABOUT FEDERAL LAND, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DRILLING, ABOUT  MINERAL RIGHTS, AND SO NOW YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT WHO HAS  NOMINATED SOMEONE WHO CLEARLY IS GOING TO BE OKAY ON NATIVE  AMERICAN ISSUES, BUT IS OPENLY ANTAGONISTS TO THE OTHER  PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO WORK IN ANOTHER BIG PORTION OF WHAT IT  IS THEY DO.

NOT ONLY WILL YOU SEE  OPPOSITION, YOU'LL SEE BIPARTISAN OPPOSITION FROM  DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE, WE ARE  NOT SURE THIS IS THE RIGHT PERSON BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT  OF MONEY.

THIS IS HUGE FOR THE STATE OF  NEW MEXICO.

>> Gene: LET ME ASK SENATOR  FELDMAN TO JUMP IN ON THIS AS WELL.

IS HER NOMINATION IN DANGER HERE IN YOUR VIEW?

>> Dede: NO.

I THINK THERE WILL BE A LOT OF  TALK ABOUT IT BUT I DON'T THINK HER NOMINATION IS IN  DANGER.

JOE MANSION, THE MOST LIKELY DEMOCRATIC OPPONENT,  HAS SAID HE IS DEFERRING TO THE NEW PRESIDENT FOR HIS  NOMINEES SO I DON'T THINK THERE IS REAL TROUBLE.

I REALLY, YOU KNOW, I REALLY KIND OF RESENT THE FACT THAT  PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING HER BECAUSE SHE IS A NATIVE  AMERICAN.

THAT SEEMS TO BE THE  OBJECTION, THAT DAN JUST RAISED, IS THAT SHE IS ONLY  GOOD IN THAT ONE AREA.

AND DOESN'T -- IS  UNPROFESSIONAL IN THE OTHER AREAS.

SHE IS A LAWYER.

SHE HAS BEEN ON THE RELEVANT  COMMITTEES HERE FOR FOUR YEARS.

SHE IS EXPERIENCED AND HER POSITIONS ARE WELL-KNOWN BUT  HER COMPETENCE IS ALSO WELL-KNOWN.

AND I THINK IT SPEAKS WELL OF NEW MEXICO.

SHE IS NOT JUST A NATIVE AMERICAN CANDIDATE.

SHE IS A WOMAN, SHE IS A NEW MEXICAN AND A DEMOCRAT AND  SOMEBODY WHO HAS STRONG ENVIRONMENTAL BELIEFS ABOUT  CLIMATE CHANGE, ABOUT OIL AND GAS AND, YES, THESE ARE THINGS  THAT NEED TO BE CONSIDERED.

THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CONSIDERED  IN THE PAST.

>> Gene: THAT IS A GOOD POINT.

THEY HAVEN'T, HAVE THEY, WITH ANY NOMINEE FOR THIS POSITION.

THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT.

SENATOR SNYDER,   THERE IS NO PERFECT CANDIDATE FOR ANY  CABINET POSITION.

EVERYONE HAS A LITTLE SOMETHING THERE.

IS IT AUTOMATICALLY AN OUT FOR YOU THAT MS. HAALAND HAS BEEN  OPPOSED TO FRACKING THAT IS ONE PART OF ENERGY POLICY.

THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS SHE HAS NOT SPOKEN  ABOUT THAT SHE OPPOSES.

IS ONE THING ENOUGH FOR YOU TO  HAVE QUESTION?

>> Diane: YES.

I WANT TO ADDRESS WHAT SENATOR FELDMAN SAID.

I HAVE NOT HEARD A SINGLE PERSON SAY THAT OR VOICED ANY  CONCERNS ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE IS A NATIVE AMERICAN.

IN FACT, I HAVE HEARD THAT BEING SAID AS A GREAT PLUS FOR  HER GOING INTO THIS DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR JOB.

I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH HER AS THE SECRETARY OF  INTERIOR THAT I HAVE WITH HER AS REPRESENTING THE  CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT THAT I LIVE IN AND THAT IS BEING  ANTI-FRACKING AND IN MANY STATES THAT IS NOTHING.

IT MEANS NOTHING.

IN OUR STATE IT MEANS  EVERYTHING.

I WAS JUST READING A FEW DAYS  AGO THAT WE'RE UP TO 40% OF OUR BUDGET COMING FROM OIL AND  GAS REVENUES.

AND NOT COUNTING ANY OF THE  EXTRACTIVE MINING OR ANY OF THOSE.

SO, IT CONCERNS ME IN THE SAME WAY THAT I WORRY ABOUT IT AS  HER VOTE AS MY CONGRESSWOMAN, I WOULD WORRY ABOUT HER  DEALING WITH THOSE ISSUES AS THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR.

I THINK ALSO THE THING THAT ENHANCES THAT CONCERN FOR ME  IS THE FACT THAT AS THE SECRETARY, WITH THE PRESIDENT  BEHIND HER, WILL HAVE MORE INFLUENCE THAN AS BEING A  SINGLE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVE.

SO, YES, I HAVE VERY GREAT CONCERNS.

I SUSPECT LIKE SENATOR FELDMAN SAID THAT THERE WILL BE A LOT  OF TALK.

I AM NOT SURE THAT -- WE ARE  STILL IN THE HONEYMOON PERIOD FOR MR.BIDEN.

I AM NOT SURE THAT IT WILL DO HER IN BUT I THINK THERE HAS  TO BE, AND THIS IS TERRIBLE TO SAY, BUT I THINK THERE HAS TO  BE ONE SECRETARY THAT THE OPPOSING PARTY, AND IT HAPPENS  ON BOTH SIDES, HAS TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST.

AND I AM VERY AFRAID THAT IT MAY BE MS. HAALAND.

SO, I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE A VERY INTERESTING HEARING AND  I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING SOME OF IT.

AS A NEW MEXICAN AND AS A WOMAN, I AM PROUD OF HER.

SHE IS A NATIVE AMERICAN, REPRESENTS OUR STATE, BUT SOME  APPROPRIATE POSITIONS ARE OF GREAT CONCERN TO ME AND MANY  OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW.

>> Dan: I THINK A COUPLE  THINGS, ONE OF THEM, I LOVE DEDE, SHE IS ONE OF MY CLOSEST  FRIENDS.

I DON'T HAVE ANY OPPOSITION  AND TO SAY I HAVE OPPOSITION BECAUSE SHE IS A NATIVE  AMERICAN WOMAN.

IS NOT FAIR.

I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

THE REASON SHE IS ELEVATED TO  THIS POSITION IS BECAUSE THEY ARE CHECKING A BOX FOR NATIVE  AMERICAN WOMAN.

>> Gene:   ISN'T THAT THE SAME THING?

KIND OF SIDEWAYS?

>> Dan: SAYING THAT THEY ARE  GIVING HER THE JOB AND SAYING I AM OPPOSED TO HER GETTING  THE JOB?

>> Gene: YEAH.

>> Dan: YOU AND I DISAGREE.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN IDENTITY  POLITICS.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN SAYING,  WELL, I AM GOING TO GIVE THIS TO A PERSON BECAUSE THEY FIT  INTO A BOX.

>> Gene: BUT THAT IS NOT OUR  SYSTEM.

WE HAVE A NOMINATION PROCESS.

NO ONE IS BEING GIVEN ANYTHING.

>> Dan: 100%.

I MEAN, THE DEPARTMENT OF  INTERIOR, I MEAN, HE'S NOMINATED A LADY FROM NEW  MEXICO, A CONGRESSWOMAN FROM NEW MEXICO WHO, YOU KNOW, EVEN  WHEN MY GOOD FRIEND DEDE WAS TALKING ABOUT HER, ALL DEDE  SAID WAS SHE IS A DEMOCRAT, SHE IS NATIVE AMERICAN.

SHE IS NOT EVEN A MEMBER OF THE NEW MEXICO BAR.

SHE HASN'T PASSED THE BAR IN NEW MEXICO.

>> Gene: SENATOR FELDMAN, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

CLOUDING OVER ALL OF THIS, WE ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF, BY  ANY STANDARD, A CHANGE OR SLOW CHANGE POSSIBLY FOR SOME FROM  FOSSIL FUELS INTO RENEWABLES.

AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS,  TO HAVE A SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR DURING THIS TIME OF  MASSIVE CHANGE WHERE YOU HAVE GOT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY  REALLY KIND OF PANICKED RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE FUTURE, YOU HAVE  GOT GENERAL MOTORS ANNOUNCING THEY ARE GOING TO BE GOING ALL  ELECTRIC IN 2035 FOR ALL THEIR VEHICLES.

ALL THAT HAS TO SORT OF FIGURE INTO THIS DISCUSSION, I AM  IMAGINING, UNLESS I AM MISSING SOMETHING HERE.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THAT?

>> Dede: I THINK IT IS TO BE  EXPECTED.

IT IS TO BE EXPECTED IN THE SAME WAY AS ENVIRONMENTAL  OPPOSITION SURFACED WHEN OUR PREVIOUS INTERIOR SECRETARIES,  AND REMEMBER SEVERAL OF THEM WERE REMOVED FOR CORRUPTION  BECAUSE OF THEIR CONNECTIONS TO THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY  AND THEIR CLOSE ADVOCACY FOR THAT INDUSTRY.

YOU KNOW, THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS OBJECTED BUT  THOSE REPUBLICAN INTERIOR NOMINEES WERE CONFIRMED BY A  REPUBLICAN SENATE.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS  IS A SIMILAR SITUATION.

>> Gene: GOT TO RUN MY  FRIENDS.

SHORT ON TIME.

SPEAKING OF THE LEGISLATURE, HOWEVER, WE WANT TO TAKE A  LOOK NOW AT A PAIR OF BIPARTISAN BILLS IN THE STATE  HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THAT REWORK NEW MEXICO'S TAX CODES.

AS PRODUCER MATT GRUBS DISCOVERED, THE BILLS ARE MORE  CLEAN-UP WORK THAN BROAD REFORM, BUT BIPARTISAN  SPONSORS SAY THEY ARE IMPORTANT STEPS THE STATE MUST  TAKE BEFORE TRUE REFORM CAN HAPPEN.

>> Matt: REPRESENTATIVE JAVIER MARTINEZ AND JASON HARPER,  THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

I WANTED TO FIRST START OFF  WITH GIVING YOU EACH A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS IN THE  BILL FOR REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, NEW MEXICANS,  REPRESENTATIVE HARPER LET'S START WITH YOU.

WHAT DO YOU LIKE THAT IS IN THIS BILL?

>> Harper: THANK YOU, MATT.

IT IS GREAT TO BE HERE AND  GREAT TO BE PARTNERING WITH CHAIRMAN MARTINEZ.

THERE IS A LOT TO BE HAPPY ABOUT IN THIS BILL ON BOTH  SIDES OF THE AISLE.

THIS BILL REALLY IS STRUCTURED  IN A WAY THAT HELPS BOTH THE DEPARTMENT AND THE TAXPAYER  WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING SURE THAT THERE IS COMPLIANCE AND  THAT WE UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TIMES THERE IS  QUESTIONS THAT THE TAXPAYER HAS AND YOU DON'T WANT TO CALL  THE DEPARTMENT AND YOU'RE GETTING DIFFERENT ANSWERS.

AND YOU WANT TO HELP YOUR PRACTITIONERS OR YOUR  ACCOUNTANTS OUT IN THE FIELD SO THERE IS CLARITY.

PEOPLE WANT TO PAY TAXES ON WHAT THEY NEED TO PAY TAXINGS  ON AND NOT PAY TAXES ON WHAT THEY DON'T NEED TO PAY TAXES  ON.

HAVING THAT CLARITY IS REALLY  HELPFUL.

>> Matt: REPRESENTATIVE  MARTINEZ, HOW ABOUT YOU?

WHAT DID YOU LIKE WHEN YOU STARTED  WORKING ON THIS BILL WITH REPRESENTATIVE HARPER.

>> Martinez: REPRESENTATIVE HARPER, HE IS  ONE OF THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE AUTHORITIES ON TAX POLICY IN  THE LEGISLATURE AND I WOULD SAY PROBABLY ACROSS THE STATE  SO IT HAS BEEN AN HONOR AND PLEASURE TO BE WORKING WITH  HIM.

WHAT I WILL TELL YOU IS THIS  IS ONE OF THE FIRST COMPREHENSIVE TAX CLEANUP  PROPOSALS IN A LONG TIME.

AS REPRESENTATIVE HARPER LIKES  TO SAY EVERY SINGLE YEAR WE SHOULD HAVE SOME SORT OF TAX  CLEAN-UP MECHANISM BECAUSE STATUTES CHANGE ALL THE TIME,  RULES, ADMINISTRATIVE RULES CHANGE ALL THE TIME.

THERE IS CASE LAW OFTENTIMES WITH THE DEPARTMENT THAT HAS  TO CHANGE COURSE AND IT IS GOOD TO KEEP STATUTES FRESH  AND CLEAN.

YOU KNOW, I DO WANT TO GIVE A  GREAT DEAL OF CREDIT TO THE SECRETARY OF TAXATION AND  REVENUE STEPHANIE CLARK WHO SPEARHEADED THIS WORK.

THIS IS JUST ONE BILL.

THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO BILLS.

THERE IS HOUSE BILL 98 WHICH REPRESENTATIVE HARPER AND I  CO-SPONSORED BUT THERE IS ALSO HOUSE BILL 90 WHICH  REPRESENTATIVE HARPER CO-SPONSORED WITH  REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTINE CHANDLER THAT ALSO CLEANS UP  THE CODE.

DEPARTMENT HAD TO SPLIT BOTH  BILLS IN HALF BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING OUT OF HAND IN  TERMS OF HOW BIG THE BILLS WERE.

THIS PARTICULAR BILL WAS ENDORSED BY THE TAX POLICY  ADVISORY COMMITTEE, WHICH IS A BIPARTISAN WORKING GROUP PUT  TOGETHER BY GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM ON WHICH BOTH  REPRESENTATIVE HARPER AND I SERVE AS WELL AS OTHER TAX  EXPERTS.

THIS BILL WAS ALSO ENDORSED BY  THE TAX PRACTITIONER ADVISORY COMMITTEE AND AS  REPRESENTATIVE HARPER SAID IT IS FULL OF THINGS THAT REALLY  ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE THE CODE MORE CLEAR, MORE PRACTICAL,  MORE USABLE.

YOU KNOW, PERSONALLY ONE OF MY  FAVORITE THINGS ABOUT THIS BILL, ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW, IS  BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE OPTED TO ORDER  THEIR GROCERIES ON LINE.

AS YOU'LL RECALL, MATT, WE  HAVE A GUARANTEED DEDUCTION IN THE BOOKS FOR FOOD ITEMS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAY THAT WAS WRITTEN 20 YEARS AGO OR  SO, DIDN'T CONCEIVE THE IDEA OF YOU ORDERING YOUR GROCERIES  ONLINE.

SO, THIS BILL ACTUALLY FIXES THE TECHNICAL GLITCH IN THE  CODE TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO STAY HOME, THE  ELDERLY, PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES WILL NO LODGER  HAVE TO PAY A TAX ON THEIR FOOD ITEMS IF THEY ORDER THEM  ON LINE.

>> Matt: IT IS PRETTY  IMPRESSIVE THE DIFFERENCE THAT CHANGING THE WORD FROM AT TO  BY, YOU KNOW, CAN MAKE.

BUT REALLY FOR PEOPLE WHO  ORDER GROCERIES ON LINE, AS YOU SAID, ESPECIALLY IN A  PANDEMIC, THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

REPRESENTATIVE HARPER, YOU HAVE BEEN AFTER BROAD REFORM  OF THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX CODE FOR A WHILE.

HOW CLOSE TO THIS BILL AND HB90, WHICH REPRESENTATIVE  MARTINEZ JUST MENTIONED, HOW CLOSE DO THESE TWO BILLS GET  TO DOING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

>> Harper: THAT IS A GREAT  QUESTION AND I'LL JUST FIRST SAY IT IS A PLEASURE WORKING  WITH MARTINEZ AND VICE CHAIR CHANDLER ON THE OTHER.

ANOTHER THING I'LL MENTION BEFORE I GET TO YOUR QUESTION,  I REALLY LOVE THE INNOCENT SPOUSE RELIEF THAT IS PART OF  THIS BILL.

ALL OF US HAVE -- WE KNOW  PEOPLE, FRIENDS, WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH DIVORCES, SOME OF THEM  HAVE BEEN UGLIER THAN OTHERS, AND WE KNOW OF A SPOUSE WHO  KNOWING ABOUT A PENDING DIVORCE GOES AND RACKS UP A  TON OF DEBT ON THE CREDIT CARD AND RIGHT NOW IN NEW MEXICO,  BOTH SPOUSES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT DEBT.

THAT IS JUST NOT FAIR.

AND SO, WHAT THIS BILL DOES,  ANOTHER GREAT THING IT DOES, IS PROVIDING THE INNOCENT  SPOUSE RELIEF AT THE STATE LEVEL THAT YOU CAN GET AT THE  FEDERAL LEVEL.

SO, THAT KIND OF STUFF WON'T  HAPPEN ANYMORE.

THEY MAY RACK UP THE DEBT BUT THE INNOCENT  SPOUSE WON'T HAVE TO SHOULDER THAT BURDEN.

THERE IS A LOT OF LITTLE THINGS LIKE THAT IN THIS  LEGISLATION AND THAT COMES BACK TO YOUR QUESTION HOW DOES  THIS SET THE STAGE FOR DOING BROAD REFORM.

AND I WOULD SAY IT DOES REALLY TWO IMPORTANT ONES.

FIRST, IT IS HARD TO DO BROAD REFORM WHEN YOU HAVE ALL THESE  PROBLEMS, LITTLE PROBLEMS, IN THE CODE, THAT NEED TO BE  UPDATED.

THEY NEED TO BE CLEANED UP SO  THAT PEOPLE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF AND ARE DISTRACTING FROM  REAL REFORM.

HAVING THIS DONE YEARLY, LIKE  CHAIRMAN MARTINEZ SAID, IS A HUGE PART OF MAKING SURE THAT  WE CAN DO BIG REFORM AND ALSO THAT WE DON'T GET CUT OFF,  SOMETHING THAT WAS UNINTENDED, SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE  EXPLOITS, AND DERAILS THAT DISCUSSION.

THE SECOND IS I REALLY LOVE HOW THIS KIND OF SETS UP  POLITICALLY A BIPARTISANSHIP, A PARTNERSHIP, BECAUSE THE  ONLY WAY FOR US TO REALLY SOLVE THE BIG TAX PROBLEMS IN  NEW MEXICO IS TO WORK TOGETHER ACROSS THE AISLE.

I AM JUST GOING TO BE HONEST, MY SIDE DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE  ANSWERS AND THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE  ANSWERS.

BUT WHEN WE COME TOGETHER AND  DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR NEW MEXICO, THAT IS WHERE THE  MAGIC HAPPENS.

SO, SETTING THE STAGE LIKE  THIS, WORKING IN A BIPARTISAN WAY IS A HUGE HELP TO GETTING  THAT REFORM TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

>> Matt: I LIKE THAT TERM YOU USED, STAGE SETTER.

REPRESENTATIVE MARTINEZ, TO YOU, DOES THIS HAVE THAT SAME  FEEL AS YOU BOTH DESCRIBE IT?

TO ME, I GET THE SENSE THAT  THERE ARE CLEAN-UP ITEMS IN HERE THAT WILL MAKE A HUGE  DIFFERENCE TO SPECIFIC GROUPS OF PEOPLE, THINGS THAT HAVE  BUGGED THEM FOR YEARS OR HAVE COST THEM MONEY TO EITHER  COMPLY WITH OR JUST IN TERMS OF THE TAX, BUT DOES THIS FEEL  LIKE IT IS A SETUP FOR PERHAPS A LARGER LOOK AT NEW MEXICO'S  GROSS RECEIPTS TAX SYSTEM OR INCOME TAX SYSTEM.

>> Martha: IT IS, AND I THINK THAT IN MANY WAYS, YOU KNOW,  MY GENERATION OF LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP, REPRESENTATIVE  HARPER'S GENERATION OF LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP, WHICH  BOTH OF THOSE ARE VERY CLOSE TOGETHER.

WE CAME TO THE CHAMBER RELATIVELY CLOSE TOGETHER.

HARPER HAS BEEN THERE A LITTLE BIT LONGER THAN I HAVE, BUT  NONETHELESS WE ARE PRETTY CLOSE IN THE TIME WE GOT  THERE.

THERE IS A LOT OF AGREEMENT  ACROSS THE POLITICAL AISLE IN TERMS OF THE TAX CODE.

BOTH SIDES WANT TO MAKE THE SYSTEM MORE FAIR.

BOTH SIDES  WANT TO MAKE -- WANT TO SIMPLIFY THE SYSTEM.

BOTH SIDES WANT TO LOWER THE RATE ACROSS THE BOARD AND  BROADEN THE BASE ACROSS THE BOARD.

CLEARLY ONCE WE GET INTO THE NITTY GRITTY OF HOW TO DO  THAT, THAT IS WHERE THE DISAGREEMENTS WILL EMERGE.

BUT, RELATIONSHIPS LIKE THE ONE THAT WE HAVE,  RELATIONSHIPS LIKE THE ONE THAT EXISTS WITHIN OR  COMMITTEE ITSELF, THE HOUSE TAX AND REVENUE COMMITTEE, I  THINK, CAN REALLY BE A CATALYST   FOR NOT ONLY BIPARTISAN WORK BUT FOR VERY  IMPACTFUL AND EFFECTIVE WORK MOVING FORWARD.

NOW, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT TOOK 30 YEARS TO GET THIS  TAX CODE IN THE SHAPE IT IS RIGHT NOW.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME TO FIX IT.

BUT WE'RE HERE FOR THE LONG-TERM.

WE ARE COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT IT HAPPENS AND AGAIN  EVEN THOUGH THERE WILL BE DISAGREEMENTS AT SOME POINT  AND WE'LL VOTE OUR WAY AND THEY'LL VOTE THEIR WAY,  NEEDLESS TO SAY, WE WILL KEEP WORKING IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

>> Matt: IS SOME OF THE FRICTION OR ISSUES THAT WE  HAVE WITH THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX, ARE THEY BUILT INTO THIS  IDEA OF (INAUDIBLE) VERSUS SALES IN THAT AT LEAST AS I  UNDERSTAND IT, GROSS RECEIPTS ALMOST FORCES US TO SAY WHAT  WE DON'T WANT THAT TAX TO APPLY TO.

IS THAT UNWORKABLE?

DO YOU SEE THAT WE WOULD EVER  CHANGE TO A SALES TAX, EITHER ONE OF YOU?

>> Harper: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION AND REALLY WHEN WE  STARTED DOWN THIS ROAD, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL YEARS AGO, THAT  WAS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST QUESTIONS WE ASKED.

THERE IS THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX ON THIS END OF THE  SPECTRUM AND A PURE RETAIL SALES TAX ON THIS END OF THE  SPECTRUM.

CAN WE REALLY MAKE IT BY GOING  ALL THE WAY TO ONE SIDE OR ALL THE WAY TO THE OTHER SIDE?

WE ARE KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE RIGHT NOW.

THE SHORT ANSWER IS REALLY WE NEED TO MOVE IN THE DIRECTION  OF A RETAIL SALES TAX BUT IT IS STILL GOING TO HAVE TO BE  BROAD BASED SO THAT THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS  RETAIL SALES TAX YOU LIST, LIKE YOU SAID THOSE THINGS  THAT YOU TAX AND THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS THAT YOU DON'T.

THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX, ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU JUST SAY YOU  TAX EVERYTHING AND THEN YOU HAVE TO LIST WHAT YOU DON'T  TAX.

REALLY WE WILL HAVE TO BE A  HYBRID.

RIGHT NOW OUR HYBRID IS KIND  OF THE WORST OF BOTH WORLDS BUT WHAT WE ACTUALLY DECIDED  TO DO IS BE A HYBRID STILL, BUT THE BEST OF BOTH WORDS.

THAT IS POSSIBLE AND LIKE CHAIRMAN MARTINEZ SAID, THE  WAY YOU DO THAT IS BY BROADENING THE BASE AND  LOWERING THE RATE AND THAT IS HOW YOU CAN KIND OF HIT THAT  MAGIC OF THE TWO.

>> Matt: I AM WONDERING IF  THAT RINGS TRUE TO YOU, AS WELL, REPRESENTATIVE?

>> Martinez: YES, IT DOES.

AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT  WHAT WE HAVE IN NEW MEXICO IS A 30, 40 YEAR PROBLEM.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, IT IS WHAT WE HAVE  NOW AND WE HAVE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE KEEP IN MIND THE  ISSUE OF MAKING THE SYSTEM SIMPLE, MAKING IT FAIR,  ENSURING THAT THE TAXPAYER, THE CUSTOMER, END USER, CAN  USE IT.

AND ENSURING THAT WE, YOU  KNOW, WE BROADEN THE BASE SO THAT WE CAN LOWER THAT RATE.

BROADENING THE BASE REALLY SHOULD BE OUR GOAL, RIGHT.

>> Matt: DO WE NEED TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT THE TAX  BREAKS, TAX CREDITS, CARVE OUTS, WHAT THEY ARE COSTING US  AS A STATE?

IS THAT PART AND PARCEL WITH  REFORMING THE TAX CODE?

>> Martinez: I THINK DUE TO  THE GOOD WORK OF PREVIOUS LEADERSHIP IN OUR COMMITTEE  INCLUDING SENATOR HARPER, WE HAVE NOW INSTITUTED, ACROSS  THE BOARD FOR ANY TAX CREDIT DEDUCTION OR EXEMPTION THAT IS  APPROVED BY OUR COMMITTEE, A SUNSET CLAUSE SO THAT THEY ARE  NOT IN THE BOOKS FOR EVER AND THERE IS A REPORTING  MECHANISM.

WE HAVE GOTTEN A LOT BETTER  OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

TAXATION AND REVENUE  DEPARTMENT EVERY YEAR PUBLISHES A TAX EXPENDITURE  REPORT SHOWING US HOW MUCH THESE THINGS COST AND THERE IS  REPRESENTATIVE HARPER SHOWING YOUR VIEWERS.

IT IS A VERY GOOD TOOL.

IN FACT, YOU KNOW, EVERY YEAR  IT HELPS INFORM HOW MUCH IN EXPENDITURES ARE OUT THERE.

THERE IS A LOT OF LOW HANGING FRUIT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THESE IN THE BOOKS THAT ARE MARGINALLY  USED OR AREN'T USED ANY MORE THAT WE SHOULD BE CLOSING.

THERE ARE OTHERS THAT DON'T HAVE THAT REPORTING MECHANISM  SO WE DON'T EVEN KNOW, IF THOSE PARTICULAR TAX  INCENTIVES ARE WORKING OR NOT.

I THINK THAT TYPE OF ANALYSIS  CAN HELP INFORM NOT ONLY ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURES FOR  THESE EXPENDITURES THAT ARE OUT THERE, BUT WHEN THOSE THAT  SUNSET COME BACK -- I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

LAST YEAR I CARRIED ONE FOR DURABLE MEDICAL EQUIPMENT.

THESE ARE COMPANIES THAT TAKE OXYGEN TANKS AND HOSPITAL BEDS  AND WHATNOT TO PATIENTS IN THEIR HOMES.

THEY HAD A 10-YEAR SUNSET ON THAT CREDIT THAT WOULD HAVE  EXPIRED THIS YEAR.

THEY CAME BACK TO THE  LEGISLATURE LAST YEAR, HAD A REPORTING MECHANISM ON IT.

NOT ONLY DID WE HAVE DATA FOR EVERY YEAR BUT THEY SHOWED UP  WITH 10 YEARS WORTH OF DATA AND THE LEGISLATURE DECIDED IT  WAS WORTH KEEPING IN THE BOOKS.

WE APPROVED IT.

IT IS NOW IN THE BOOKS FOR  ANOTHER 10 YEARS.

THAT IS HOW THESE CREDIT,  DEDUCTIONS, EXEMPTIONS SHOULD BE WORKING AND NOT IN  PERPETUITY.

>> Matt: WELL, GENTLEMEN, WE  ARE JUST ABOUT OUT OF TIME HERE.

I REALLY THANK YOU BOTH AND I KNOW THERE ARE FAR MORE PEOPLE  WORKING ON THIS THAN JUST YOU TWO BUT TO STEP IN TO THIS AND  WADE INTO IT IS SOMETHING THAT HOPEFULLY WE CAN ALL  APPRECIATE WHEN IT COMES TIME TO LOG ON AND PAY OUR TAXES OR  GET THAT FORM AND FILL IT OUT.

THANKS TO YOU BOTH.

>> Martinez: THANK YOU, MATT.

>> Gene: WE ARE LOOKING NOW AT  SO-CALLED DARK MONEY IN NEW MEXICO POLITICS, AND IT IS  COMING FROM THE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THE LIGHTS  ON, PNM.

NEW MEXICO'S ETHICS COMMISSION  SUED THE COUNCIL FOR A COMPETITIVE NEW MEXICO.

IT  CAME AWAY WITH A SETTLEMENT THAT REVEALED THE UTILITY  GIANT'S PARENT COMPANY HAD BANK ROLLED A DARK MONEY GROUP  THAT SPENT $130,000 TO TRY AND KEEP A HANDFUL OF CONSERVATIVE  DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS IN THEIR SEATS.

THAT MONEY PAID FOR MAILERS AND ROBO CALLS AND IN ALL, AS  THE GROUP'S SOLE FUNDER, PNM GAVE NEARLY HALF A MILLION  DOLLARS.

A LOT TO UNPACK IN TERMS OF  THE ETHICS COMMISSION, NEW MEXICO'S LAWS AND REGULATIONS  AT PNM BUT DEDE, START WITH THE WAY THE ETHICS COMMISSION  DUG INTO THIS.

WHAT IS OF INTEREST TO YOU,  BECAUSE THESE GUYS THREW DOWN THE SUIT.

NOT OF AS IF THE PRESS BROUGHT THIS TO THEM ON A SILVER  PLATTER.

>> Dede: I AM HAPPY ABOUT HOW  AGGRESSIVE THE ETHICS COMMISSION IS BEING HERE IN  THIS AND IN OTHER INSTANCES.

WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE THEM  CHALLENGE WHAT WENT UNCHALLENGED BEFORE.

AND THAT IS, THE CONTRIBUTION OF THIS DARK MONEY INTO PACS  AND THE BASICALLY UNDISCOVERABILITY OF IT.

AND IN SPITE OF A NEW 2019 LAW THAT REQUIRES MORE DISCLOSURE  FROM PACS.

NOW, THE ETHICS COMMISSION IS  ASKING FOR THE DONORS TO THESE PACS.

SOMETIMES THEY HIT A BRICK WALL.

AND THEN SOMETIMES THEY SETTLE AND THEY GET SOME INFORMATION  BUT NOT ALL THE INFORMATION THEY NEED.

BUT, THANK GOODNESS THAT THEY ARE OUT THERE FIGHTING FOR  TRANSPARENCY.

>> Gene: SENATOR SNYDER, PNM  HAS BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE, IN 2018, THEY FUNNELED  $440,000 TRYING TO GET  PREFERRED CANDIDATES IN THEIR SEATS AT THE PUBLIC REGULATION  COMMISSION WHICH, OF COURSE, OVERSEES AND APPROVES ANY RATE  HIKES THAT PNM REQUESTS.

ARE THEY GETTING THEIR HANDS A  LITTLE TOO DIRTY HERE?

WHAT IS GOING ON FROM YOUR  VIEW?

>> Diane: I HAVE ALWAYS HAD  THIS SAME CONCERN NOT ONLY ABOUT THE PNM'S OR CHEVRONS OR  WHOEVER, BUT, I ALSO HAVE CONCERNS WHEN WE SAY, OH, THEY  ARE A NONPROFIT GROUP LIKE THE CONSERVATION VOTERS ALLIANCE  AND THEY ARE JUST EDUCATING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FLIERS AND  THE THINGS THAT WERE SENT OUT IN THIS LAST RACE BY PNM, THEY  COULD BE CONCEIVED AS EDUCATIONAL.

MY BELIEF IS, AND PROBABLY I'LL GET STRANGLED BY SOMEBODY  FOR IT.

WE OUGHT TO KNOW EVERYTHING  ABOUT EVERYBODY.

AND I MEAN I GOT, PARDON ME,  MESSED AROUND IN THE LAST ELECTION I RAN FOR BY A GROUP  WHO PUT OUT THIS MOST HORRENDOUS, HORRENDOUS LIES  ABOUT ME AND MAILED IT, BUT THEY SUPPOSEDLY ONLY -- THEY  DIDN'T REACH THE AMOUNT OF LEVEL.

IT WAS BELOW THE LEVEL OF WHERE WE REQUIRED THEM TO FILE  AS TO WHO THEY WERE.

NOW, IF YOU GIVE MONEY, YOU  PUT IT OUT FRONT.

THEN WE WOULDN'T HAVE ALL THIS  PLAYING AROUND.

OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT JUST  MAKES ME SICK, ALL OF IT.

>> Gene: I FEEL YOU.

WE HAVE BRIAN METZGAR ON A COUPLE WEEKS AGO SUSPICION  THAT PNM BANK ROLLED ANOTHER DARK MONEY GROUP SUPPORTING  THE AGENCY THAT OVERSEES THE COMPANY.

PNM IS REFUSING TO SAY IF THEY  DID OR DIDN'T.

I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN, MUCKING  AROUND WITH THE REGULATORY AGENCY AND I AM BEING FLIP  HERE WHEN I SAY MUCKING AROUND, BUT THESE ARE THE  PEOPLE THAT ARE REGULATING THEM, SHOULD THEY HAVE ANY  HAND IN THIS AT ALL?

>> Dan: WHETHER WE MORALLY  LIKE IT, ETHICALLY LIKE IT OR LEGALLY LIKE IT, THOSE ARE  THREE DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.

IF THEY ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO  DO IT, I MEAN, THEN, WE CAN VOICE OUR OPINIONS AND TELL  THEM WE DON'T WANT THEM TO DO IT.

THE BIGGER QUESTION WE ARE MISSING THE BOAT HERE, MY  OPINION, WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS WHAT PEOPLE LIKE  MYSELF AND OTHERS SAID WHEN THIS COMMISSION WAS CREATED,  IT JUST SELECTIVE PROSECUTION.

IT SEEMS NO MATTER WHO THEY  LOOK AT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY GO AFTER, THEY ARE GOING AFTER  CONSERVATIVES, PEOPLE THAT OFFEND THE PROGRESSES.

EVEN JEREMY PHARRIS, THE COMMISSION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR  SAYS THAT THE LAWSUIT WAS INTENDED TO DISCLOSE THE  GROUPS DONORS.

THAT ISN'T THEIR MISSION.

THEIR MISSION ISN'T TO SUE SOMEONE TO DISCLOSE DONORS.

ACCORDING TO U.S. NEWS, EVEN THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR IS  OUTSTEPPING WHAT THE CHARGE OF THIS ORGANIZATION WAS.

DO I THINK PNM SHOULD BE MESSING AROUND IN IT?

NO.

DO I THINK IT SMELLS RIGHT?

NO.

DO I THINK WE SHOULD BE SETTING UP -- PNM SHOULD BE  INVOLVED?

WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, INSURANCE  PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED WHEN IT COMES TO IT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THE BIGGER QUESTION IS WHY DO WE  HAVE THE SELECTIVE PROSECUTION AND WHY ARE THEY TRYING TO DO  THINGS THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF THE CHARGE OF WHAT THEY ARE TASKED  WITH?

>> Gene: SHORT ON TIME.

WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING TO DO WAS ENFORCING FINANCING  REPORTING LAWS AS THEY STAND NOW, NOT NECESSARILY --  >> Dan: THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAID IN U.S. NEWS.

JEREMY  PHARRIS SAID THE LAWSUIT WAS INTENDED TO DISCLOSE THE  GROUPS' DONORS.

YOU CAN FILL IN FOR HIM ALL  YOU WANT.

THAT IS HIS QUOTE.

>> Gene: ENFORCING THE LAW.

>> Diane: AS REQUIRED BY LAW.

>> Dan: GETTING THE GROUP'S DONORS IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE  SUPPOSED TO BE TAGGED WITH DOING.

THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TAGGED WITH GOING OUT AND  FINDING WHO THE DONORS ARE.

>> Gene: THEY DO HAVE TO  REPORT THAT OUT.

LET ME HAVE SENATOR FELDMAN  PICK UP ON THAT POINT.

>> Dede: IT IS CLEARLY  REQUIRED BY STATE LAW AND THE ETHICS COMMISSION IS UNDER ITS  CHARTER TO COOPERATE WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO MAKE  THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE.

BUT JUST BACK TO DAN'S POINT,  THERE IS A MORAL POINT HERE AS WELL.

AND THAT IS, PNM, WHICH IS NOW GOING TO BE MERGING WITH  ANOTHER OUT-OF-STATE UTILITY, IS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR LEADING  CORPORATE CITIZEN.

AND AS A CORPORATE CITIZEN,  THEY HAVE, AS JOSEPH MAESTAS TODAY OR YESTERDAY, BEFORE THE  PRC INDICATED, THEY HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO  DISCLOSE.

THEY HAVE BEEN ASKED NUMEROUS  TIMES.

THEY REFUSED AND THEIR REFUSAL  RINGS A LOT LOUDER THAN A DISCLOSURE.

I AM WITH DIANE.

IF SOMEBODY IS PAYING INTO  THESE CAMPAIGNS, IS PRODUCING A MESSAGE AND IN THIS CASE IT  WAS A MISLEADING MESSAGE.

AND IT DIDN'T EVEN MENTION  THAT THE PRC WOULD NO LONGER BE ELECTED BUT IT WOULD BE  APPOINTED.

AND IT WOULD NO LONGER BE  REGULATING TRANSPORTATION AND OTHER UTILITIES, SO, THEY HAVE  A RESPONSIBILITY TO DISCLOSE.

>> Gene: WE ARE OUT OF TIME  GUYS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR A VERY  LIVELY SET TONIGHT.

A REALLY GOOD SHOW.

WE ARE  OUT OF TIME AND BACK IN A MOMENT WITH FINAL THOUGHTS.

WE ALL KNOW THAT OLD SONG, NO MAN IS AN ISLAND, AND JUDGING  FROM WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN TEXAS AND THEIR CONTINUING  CHALLENGES GETTING POWER TO HOMES AND BUSINESSES, NEITHER  CAN A STATE BE AN ISLAND INSIDE THE PLANET'S LEADING  DEMOCRACY.

BUT   GO IT ALONE THEY HAVE.

A LOT OF FAMILIES HERE IN NEW  MEXICO HAVE TIES TO OUR NEIGHBOR TO THE EAST SO I JOIN  THEM IN WISHING THE BEST FOR EVERYONE THERE CERTAINLY, BUT  WE HAVE OUR OWN CHALLENGES LOOMING WHEN IT COMES TO  ENERGY, HOW IT IS PRODUCED AND WHAT OUR FUTURE LOOKS LIKE IN  A WORLD OF DIMINISHING FOSSIL FUEL DEMAND.

IT IS ONE THING GETTING POWER FROM POINT A TO POINT B.

THAT IS ABOUT SMART POLICY, I AM SURE TEXAS WILL FIGURE THAT  OUT.

IT IS ANOTHER MATTER ALTOGETHER WHEN YOUR SCHOOL  SYSTEM, STATE BUDGET, ARGUABLY YOUR ENTIRE FINANCIAL  EXISTENCE IS DEPENDENT ON DEMAND FOR WHAT WE REPRODUCE.

WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT DIVERSIFYING OUR ECONOMY.

IF THIS ISN'T THE TIME NOW, WHEN WILL IT BE?

THANKS AGAIN FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.