(gentle music) - Hello, I'm Norm Silverstein, glad you're with us.

My company today is Ted Curtis.

If you've ever taken a ride on a boat on the Erie Canal, on the Genesee River, had almost anything to do with the waterways here in Rochester, well Ted Curtis probably played a role in that.

We're gonna hear more about that today, but we're also going to find out some interesting things about Ted and his family.

I'll bet you didn't know Ted's a former interim city manager, he was with Kodak, he was with RIT.

He was the head of the Visitor's Association, and most of all he was a spy for the CIA before he founded Corn Hill Navigation.

Ted, I'm so glad you could be with us.

- Norm, it's a great pleasure being with us.

I have to immediately say it was 60 years ago I was a spook, so that doesn't really hardly count anymore.

- Well, maybe you can tell us some secrets today.

- I can easily tell you things I wouldn't have said 60 years ago.

- Well, that's great, we'll look forward to that.

Ted, to call you a native Rochesterian, it wouldn't do your family justice.

You've been here for five generations.

What brought the first Curtis to Rochester?

- Well, the first Curtis was a Peck, and I am Edward Peck Curtis.

He was Everhart Peck, my great grandfather, and he came to Rochester in 1818.

He was a book seller, he was a paper maker.

He was heavily involved in the community.

- Well, there have been some interesting things that Curtis' have been involved in.

I understand that your father was a World War I Ace.

- He was indeed, yeah.

Six victories.

- Six victories.

- With Squadron 95, yeah.

Back in 1918.

- You know, that alone is a pretty interesting story, but I also, in doing a little research, found out your mother had a role in World War I when she was very young.

Can you tell us about that?

- Oh, bless you.

Surely I can tell you that.

My father, I'm sorry, my step-grandfather, her step-father, was a noted orthopedic surgeon in town, Dr. Fitch, Ralph Fitch.

In 1914, the American Red Cross asked him if he would go over, and set up a field hopsital right behind the lines, maybe 20 miles back, for treating wounded prisoners, or wounded soldiers.

And he said "Sure," so he picked up his family, which is he and my grandmother, and my mother who was then 14 years old, and they all went to France.

And they set up the hospital, and she was a nurse's aid at age 14.

She was one of the triage girls.

When the wounded came in, either they were gonna be okay, you just shipped them back as fast as possible, or they were gonna die, and you put 'em off in the corner.

Or whatever happened to them depended on what you did in the next half hour.

She stayed with the ones who were dying.

She wrote their letters home, all that sort of thing.

Last letters.

- At 14 years old?

- [Ted] At 14 years old, yeah.

- And meanwhile your father was shooting down German planes.

- He was, he was, indeed.

- [Norm] Did they meet during World War I?

- No, actually she was there much longer than he was 'cause she went over at 14, and stayed, oh, really to about 1960.

And then she came back, and she got old enough her father felt hanging around with wounded soldiers was not all that good of an idea anyway.

And Dad got there in February of '18.

All the flying started in February.

He was Squadron 95, which is, Rickenbacker was 94, and there were, oh, probably four or five other squadrons.

And those were the glory days of early flying, yeah.

- I heard you wanted to be a solider, that didn't quite work out, and we're gonna get to that, but you also told me a great story about your grandmother and her role in saving Cobbs Hill.

I never heard this story before.

- Cobbs Hill geologically is, what it really is, is a really nifty sand and gravel pit, okay?

And Elam Sand and Gravel owned the whole damn thing.

And Mr. Elam was briskly taking it out, and making cement out of it, or concrete out of it.

He started to really chew into Cobbs Hill, and he could see in the back there where obviously a large chunk of it has been taken out.

And my grandmother thought this was most unfortunate because it was a beautiful hill with the woods and everything else.

And she went to Mr. Elam, and said "Sir, this is a terrible thing that you're doing.

"Can't we do something about it?"

He said "Madame, my civic sense is a little limited, "but if you want to buy it, "I'd be delighted to entertain you."

So she went to Eastman, George Eastman, and they were quite close buddies.

And she said "Sir, we really gotta do this."

And he said "Well, Alice, I think that's a very nice idea, "and I'll tell you what, I'll match whatever you can raise."

And I think the price was 70,000 or something like that.

She raised 35, and Eastman kicked in the rest, and there it went.

- And without that?

- Without that it wouldn't be there.

It would be a sand and gravel pit.

- We wouldn't have Cobbs Hill, that's a fascinating story.

So we have a history that includes a father who was a World War I flying Ace, a mother who was a 14-year-old triage nurse overseas in World War I, a grandmother who was a friend of George Eastman and helped save Cobbs Hill.

Let's talk a little bit about you.

What was it like growing up?

You were here for the first 10 years of your life?

- Uh, just about 10, yeah.

I was just 10 when we moved to Washington.

It was a lot of fun.

I lived out on East Avenue in the city.

- Tell me about that.

What was East Avenue like back then?

- We lived on a big old white house that's still there.

It's right next to Sir Thomas Moore.

2669 East Avenue.

And all sets of grandparents were here in town.

Sunday dinner always at the grandparents in what is now 1010 East Avenue, the Parish House for Asbury.

No, I was grateful.

I think I remember Sunday dinners practically as well as anything from my childhood.

Yes, yes.

- So you were about 10 years old, what took your family to Washington?

- Uh, we went in 1940, stayed through the war.

By the time the war was over we moved back to Rochester.

I was in prep school, and then away at college.

And married shortly thereafter.

We spent our first four years in Washington, and never really came back to town til 1955.

So I was gone those 15 years.

- [Norm] Now, there were a few things that happened in those 15 years.

- Ha, ha, ha, yeah.

- This is when you, you tried to become a solider, but?

- No, actually, I was Air Force ROTC all through college.

I thought that seemed a good thing to do, and so literally the day I graduated I reported for active duty (indistinct).

And they were halfway through the physical, and said "You're flat feet, asthma and colorblind, get out of here, we don't want you.

- Oh my goodness.

- So they sent me away.

- [Norm] You must have been crushed.

- I was rather because Dad had had a very distinguished military career, the least I could do was take a piece of something.

But it happened at that time that the CIA was hiring like crazy.

It was the beginning of the Korean War, halfway through the Korean War.

And I had a bunch of buddies down there, and a couple of them said "Hey (whistles) come on down, we can use you."

And so I signed up.

- So you become a spy because you have a couple of buddies- - Oh yeah.

- At the CIA.

- At the CIA.

And the CIA was greatly expanding in those days.

- Well, you must have at least one interesting story you can share now 60 years later that you didn't wanna talk about say five years after it happened.

- CIA?

Yeah- - I don't think they'll come after you.

I've seen a few movies, and I think it's okay to talk about it.

- I will tell you the great, great Chinese fire drill we had up and down the Iberian Peninsula.

I was on the Spanish desk, operations officer at the Spanish desk in the early '50s, and this was, including the time when Stalin died in the spring of '53, and the question that immediately came up was what happened to Lavrentiy Beria, who was Stalin's right hand guy, and head of the whole spy network and everything else.

And he disappeared.

- The KGB.

- He was the KGB boy, exactly.

Well not to spoil the suspense, but it was later discovered, it took about five years before it came out, they shot him 20 minutes after Stalin died, so that took care of that problem.

But at that point everybody was saying "Where is Beria?

"Where is Beria?"

There was an absolutely nutty little guy who was a walk-in to the FBI who said "I know where Beria is, he's in Spain."

They immediately called up the Spanish desk, and me and a couple other guys, and we said "You gotta be out of your tree, "what the hell would Beria be doing in Spain?"

Said "No, no, no, this is good."

So we were running up and down looking for Beria.

And, of course, he wasn't there.

Interesting thing, it took us a long time for us to discover this, there was a Beria who escaped to Spain.

It was Lavrentiy's nephew, who was not a very bright little boy, but he was bright enough so his uncle had gotten him a job as a chauffer at the KGB.

He was bright enough, when he heard that his uncle had died, he was bright enough to check out the limo, and head for Finland.

And suddenly wandered around, and didn't he wind up in Spain.

- Imagine something like that happening today with the internet, instant communications.

- Ah, things are different.

- [Norm] Things are a lot different.

- But it did show you if they say something's happening there, don't write it off because it may not be what you think is happening, but something is always happening.

- And what did you do when you came back?

- I was a time study man.

When you stated at Kodak there was no favoritism or anything else, you started at the bottom.

And the bottom of the bottom is a time study man.

I was the guy going around with a stop watch, and said "You gotta turn out 382 widgets an hour."

- You must have been very popular.

- It was a very useful experience of knowing what it's like to be hated by large groups of people.

Yes, yes, yes.

- Now your father also worked for Kodak.

- Dad was finishing up his career there at that point.

He was 42 years with Kodak, very distinguished.

At the end he was vice president of international and motion picture.

And he was there guy on Hollywood for 30 years.

- Oh, that must have been fun.

- That was huge fun.

- Did you get to meet some Hollywood stars?

- Oh, God, of course.

'Cause what happened was he always told me he had a steady commute.

Those were the days when a steady commute meant you hopped the Santa Fe super cheap every couple of weeks or whatnot.

- Well, he was used to the Brighton Bullet, right?

- He was used to the Brighton Bullet, so that was it.

'Cause at one point Eastman House 40 years ago was giving away Eastman Awards to top Hollywood types.

And, well, Dad was still active, and so he helped really in sort of attracting (indistinct) get an Eastman Award.

And the best one of them all was Jimmy Stewart.

He's just a super guy.

He would stay with the folks.

And I went out to have a drink with him.

And he said "Oh," he said "Ted, that's a wonderful tie you've got on."

I had my regular red and purple tie.

I said "Yeah."

He said "Where'd you get it?"

I said "I got it at Whillock Brothers in Rochester."

He said "Oh, are they open?"

I said "Well, sir, it's a little late in the day."

It was Saturday afternoon.

I think they're about to close.

So I called Tommy, guy who ran Whillocks, (indistinct).

Told him the situation he said "I will open tomorrow."

He said "Have him here at 9:00 in the morning."

- For Jimmy Stewart.

- For Jimmy Stewart.

He bought several times, and was very happy.

- He ever wear them in any movies that you saw?

- None that I saw.

No, no, no.

- But for all the kidding about starting at the bottom with Kodak, at one point when you were at Kodak, they lent you to be a the interim city manager.

Now how did that happen?

- Geez.

I'd been in, let's see, started with Kodak in '55, so I've been with Kodak 12-15 years, and I worked my way up in industrial relations.

I was, what the hell was I?

Manager of Wage Administration.

I told people how much they were gonna get paid.

They didn't like me in that job either.

But I'd also been moderately active in Republican circles.

And in the fall of '69 the Republicans won a municipal election in Rochester.

They didn't intended to win it, they didn't deserve to win it, they didn't expect to win it.

But I got there it was.

And all of a sudden there they were.

The first thing they did was put in an interim committee to go and find the nationwide search for the most competent and professional city manager they could find.

And I was on the search committee.

And after a while it became very apparent that we were gonna take over long before we could find a (indistinct) professional.

Somebody had to go in as an interim, and I got tagged.

I must say it was great fun, I enjoyed that.

- [Norm] What was Rochester like in those days?

- Not a whole lot, well yeah, probably quite a lot different.

- Well, Kodak was very big.

- Oh, Kodak was very big in those days, very big.

The first thing I had to do was check with, at that point, Louie Eilers, who (indistinct).

I called him up and said "I was chairman, I've been asked if I will be city manager."

He said "Do you want to?"

I said "Yeah, I think it would be kind of interesting."

He said "Okay."

He said "It will not hurt your Kodak career, "go and do it."

So I did.

- It's like being a mayor for a while.

- Yeah, except in those days mayor was purely honorary.

You cut ribbons and kissed babies and whatnot.

City manager was the guy who did- - City manger was the real worker.

Real power.

- Real power.

That was very good fun.

- Well when did this bug bite you about the Erie Canal, waterways, and what brought you around to founding Corn Hill?

- What got me going locally was the time when I was city manager.

I thought I ought to know a little bit more about a bunch of stuff around Rochester, including the waterways.

And so at that point there still is Mid-Lakes Navigation.

But it was run in those days, the patriarch of Mid-Lakes was old Peter Wiles.

He was a splendid salty old character.

He was all kinds of fun.

He had five kids, and they were all very nice.

They were all in the business.

And he ran Mid-Lakes.

And the Amadea, which his a big tour boat that goes up and down, and he was just starting to build a fleet of higher boats, 40 footers, solid steele, sleeps two or four.

And a big tiller out back, and you rented it for a week, and they showed you how to go through a Lock, and said sayonara.

You went off for a week, it was marvelous.

They were operating out of Syracuse then, they now operate out of Masset.

But that stretch in there is one of the prettiest stretches of Erie Canal anywhere around.

So we (indistinct), occasionally a kitty, and always a dog, and we'd go off on the Eerie Canal.

Great time.

- And you decided this was something that eventually you'd like to do.

- Yes, I'd like to get into this, yes.

- Well, I heard you had a boat and a piece of land, so how did you get your business started?

- When we first got Corn Hill Navigation going, I looked all over to see if we could find a boat for about 40 passengers.

And I went back to Peter, he said, I don't know what he said.

But there was a guy in Seneca Falls who wanted me to build him a boat about that size.

He said "I drew up all the plans and everything."

And then he went bankrupt, and decided he didn't wanna do it.

I said "I'll build it for you if you want."

We talked about it- - You have to tell me, is that gonna become the Sam Patch?

- Yes, it's Sam Patch.

And I said "Peter, how much are we talking here?"

He said "Oh, $130,000-ish."

And I said "How much is the ish?"

He said "How much ish do you want?"

(Norm laughs) We finally agreed on $135,000," and he build Sam Patch for us.

- And that was your first boat.

- [Ted] And away we went, yeah.

- And it was about 10 years before your second, is that about right?

- [Ted] Uh, no, about five years.

- About five years.

And that was the Mary Jemison.

- The Mary Jemison.

Sam ran out of Pittsburgh at that point, and still does.

And you couldn't do anything.

Remember that the river, and to a degree the canal, but the river, technically you couldn't do anything with back then 'cause it was terribly polluted.

Nobody wanted to go in the river anyway.

But starting mid 1980s they put a billion bucks into cleaning up the Genesee River and its tributaries, and all the rest of the stuff.

And all of a sudden you had a really beautiful piece of water that you could use.

So there we were.

- Well, Ted, you had a grandmother who helped save Cobbs Hill, and now you have a point of land named after you.

- I've got my own point.

- Tell me about it.

- This is really nice.

It was Bob (indistinct) who's responsible for this.

I had been, I really forget how all this came out, but the city wanted to do some sort of recognition.

And (indistinct) said "We know that you've been "closely attached to the river, "and what we'd like to do is name a point of land after you "where the river and the canal cross."

And I said "Your honor, I know that spot well, "I would be deeply honored."

That's just a beautiful, beautiful piece of land.

- [Norm] Now, tell me that's Curtis point.

- It is Curtis point.

- And it's in the Genesee- - [Ted] It's in Genesee Valley Park where the river and the canal intersect.

- [Norm] Oh, what an appropriate spot.

- Yeah, it's genuinely beautiful.

You can go out there sometime, and just sort of sit there, and watch the river go by and the canal come through.

I really think it's one of the most beautiful Vistas there is in Rochester.

- Do you ever do that?

Do you take a chair- - Oh sure.

- And just sit there.

- I drive out there, and just sit, watch things go by.

- How do you feel when you're sitting at Curtis Point and seeing really the waterways coming back the way they are?

- Not only that, but some people, you give a college a million bucks, they name a dormitory after you.

What are you gonna do, go down every morning, and sit and look at the dormitory?

Give me a break.

But Curtis Point, oh my God, you can have a lovely time out there.

- And anyone can go visit Curtis Point.

- And anyone can visit Curtis Point and enjoy, and they do.

- That's terrific.

That's terrific.

I hope the canal has come back.

- Oh, it has.

It really has.

There's a lot more that could be done.

And what I really wish, and Peter was trying to do this, and the rest of his family have done it to a degree, what we really need is a couple of really good European type canal boats.

For a floating B&B kind of thing.

Maybe one of these days.

Not me.

20 years ago I might have, but not anymore.

- Well, besides Curtis Point, what's your favorite spot on the Eerie Canal?

- Just below Lock 26, the western edge of the Montezuma Marsh.

It's the most beautiful piece of wilderness that I know around here.

We always used to, my little dog and I, we go off, and I always took one of the higher boats for starting boat on the Regatta in the fall, just right about now, and as soon as the Regatta was we'd scoot out, and try to get out by Richardson's for Sunday night.

And the next day we'd go down to the canal, and were always heading for bottom of Lock 26.

Simply beautiful.

Because you'd get there, and it's absolute wilderness.

And you'd get to bed early and all that sort of thing.

5:00 in the morning, as soon as the sun was up, they'd start coming.

By the thousands they geese get up out of the lake, and fly back up to barge.

And go right overhead honking their full heads off.

The most beautiful sound there is.

- Well you see the future of Rochester tied somewhat to developing the waterways and the resurgence of the canal.

- Oh, I think it's been, yeah, that's the thing we worked most on for the last 20 years.

I think it's had some impact.

Yeah, as I say though, the waters are cleaned up.

There has been a tremendous amount of development along the canal.

And it's a very popular spot these days.

- But you've stepped back from running Corn Hill Navigation on the day to day.

- I am the commodore at this point.

I am the honorary commodore, yes, yes.

I get to ride free, that's about the extent of my activity at this point.

- Well, I still see the Sam Patch every time I go down to Schoen Place?

- Oh, sure, sure.

Sam's on Schoen Place, and Mary works out of Corn Hill Landing, yeah.

- And when my son who's almost 20, when he was about eight years old, took a ride when we first moved to Rochester, and got to steer the Sam Patch.

- Of course, of course, yes, every fourth grader in town gets to go to Sam Patch, yeah.

- Well, it's clear that you love this community, and you've seen a lot of changes, what do you see for the future?

- Future of Rochester?

I think the future of Rochester is potentially very, very strong.

I think it is now, and, I think, will continue to be the biggest economic engine, if you will, outside of New York City.

Way beyond Buffalo, or obviously Syracuse, Utica.

And of course it was Kodak for a long time.

But now I think the huge strength in Rochester is the number of little ones that have sprung up, literally dozens of them, and a lot of them, like little companies everywhere, don't make it.

But along comes Pytek, along comes a whole bunch of others.

And all of a sudden you've got a whole new, whole new bunch of entrepreneurs that are making a great living in Rochester.

- Well, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I think you can handle it.

If you could change one thing about Rochester, what would it be?

- I'll tell you what it would not be, I would not be... People complain about the weather in Rochester.

I have lived in a number of different areas, and Rochester's got the best weather I've ever seen.

I mean, try Washington in July if you wanna look for lousy weather.

- I've been there.

- Yes.

You would agree, yeah.

Rochester has a tendency still to think we are Rochester, and that automatically makes us kind of special.

And we exist all by ourselves, we're not beholden to anybody.

Buffalo is about 70 miles away, Syracuse is 70 miles east, we don't care about either of those.

If there's a town we do care about, I think it's Toronto, not New York City.

But, we're a very stand alone bunch.

And you really can't do that these days very well.

- Well, let's flip that question.

What do you love most about the community?

- Oh my, so many things.

(Ted whistling) Any time spent on the river, the canal, whatnot.

Things like, though we don't do these often, we're not regulars, and we probably should be, everything they have in the town, the art gallery, the museum, everything else, XXI.

We are a town that just is extraordinary rich in activities and development.

A lot of very bright people around, a lot of strong entrepreneurs still.

Very heavy in science, very good at research.

And just a very, very pleasant town to be in.

- Do you think we have any best kept secrets?

- Well the best kept secret used to be, and we've had several, best kept secret used to be the Genesee River, which the first place we, we threw dead cats and everything else there for years.

And then finally we did clean that up.

There's still a lot that could be done with the Genesee.

But, yeah, that's our main one, I think.

- Ted, thank you for sharing your stories.

Fascinating history.

I've learned a lot.

I'm sure that our viewers are learning a lot too.

Ted Curtis, thank you.

- Norm, it was 40 years ago that I ran XXI, and I'm just absolutely delighted to be back again.

- Yes you did, you were chairman of the board- - Chairman of the board.

- 1970.

- 1970.

- And helped make WXXI the place it is today.

So we're thrilled to have you on with us.

- It's a great pleasure to be here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And thank you for watching.

If you missed part of "Norm & Company," you can find a podcast of the show on WXXI.org.

We'll see you next time on "Norm & Company."

(gentle music)