[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - We're now joined by Dr. Ben Dworkin, Director of the Rowan Institute for Public Policy and Citizenship.

Good to see you, doctor.

- Good to see you, Steve, good to be back.

- You got it.

We had an election on November the 7th, 2023, all 120 seats in the state legislature are up.

Democrats picked up seats in the Senate and the Assembly.

Forget about, the polling, the politics locally or what other, otherwise, what issues mattered Ben in that race, and why did the Democrats gain more seats?

- Well, I think what we saw, is that the Republicans ran in a number of very cutting issues, and had really percolated, over the last, up into the public consciousness, over the last six months.

They were talking about dead whales, they were talking about issues involving students and schools, they were talking about gas stoves.

A lot of these things ginned up some of that Republican bait, and in a low turnout election, as it was, as was expected, that might've pulled it out.

But what we found, is that the democratic issues, that they primarily focused on, the "double a" battery as I call it, (Steve chuckling) affordability and abortion, they were really the two moving forces, and generated far more.

Nobody really expected the kind of democratic sweeping victories that we saw.

I think most people like me thought, all right, can win a few, they can lose a few.

We'll see where we are.

Maybe even end up at the exact same place where we were, the day before the election.

But, to see the Democrats, with several seats in the legislature, really just, and the Republicans, effectively shutting out the Republicans, it's like pitching a shutout in the World Series.

This was really something that was surprising, and I think it was those issues, of affordability and abortion, that made the difference.

- Yeah, so, it's interesting, Ben, you mentioned the dead whales, right, and a lot of Republicans, particularly down the Jersey Shore, said, look, the governor, Governor Murphy's clean energy program, had a lot to do with wind energy, Orsted, the largest wind energy producer in the world I believe Ben, pulls out of the New Jersey project.

The question becomes, and they have these wind turbines that they're building.

You know, those dead whales are because of the wind turbines.

We don't even know if that's true or not.

Did you think the Republicans counted on that issue, particularly down the Jersey Shore, influencing people saying, yeah, the Democrats and Murphy are responsible for dead whales, which sounds compelling, we don't even know if it's true or not.

Did they overestimate the value of that, Ben?

- I think they overestimated, yes, the value of it.

It clearly did not resonate enough.

The fact is, the Republicans, largely in terms of legislature, control the Jersey Shore.

(Steve chuckling) I mean everybody.

Until you get to- - Ocean and Monmouth County voted for Trump, huge.

- Huge, right, - Go ahead, I'm sorry, - Until you get to one district, district 11, which was obviously a very competitive, that was where the only Democrat representing the Shore, Senator Vin Gopal.

- Senator Vin Gopal.

- And he won- - And his two assembly, his two assembly candidates - Yeah.

- won too.

- Exactly.

He didn't just win.

We thought this was, and this is a race where millions of dollars have been spent between both sides.

Everybody knew this was gonna be ground zero.

This was a very targeted district, but I don't think anybody really expected Vin Gopal to win with 60% of the vote, which he did.

And that was stunning.

So I think that was a real rebuke to the whole, tying it to whales kind of stuff, but we shouldn't forget, I mean, abortion remained an issue there for Steve Dnistrian, the Republican candidate, who had a hard time articulating what his position was there, and for voters who are still dealing with a post Dodds world, you know, the aftermath of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, this is a primary issue for them.

And it got them out to vote, certainly.

- You know, we had several Republicans come on, I think it was John DiMaio, the Assembly Minority Leader, who writes, we were taping an interview earlier today, Ben, and he said, you know, they, the Democrats, they use the issue of abortion, they manipulate the issue of abortion because we don't have the votes to do anything anyway.

And I threw out, without going through all the details of the interview, Ben, I said, yeah, but Assemblyman, if you had control of the Assembly and the Senate, and you could make the choice, would you not change abortion, attempt to change the legislation, the law of the land in New Jersey, as it relates to abortion and being able to have abortion in ninth month?

And he said, yes, but we don't have the numbers.

I said, yeah, but if you won, you would've done that.

And I'm not saying right or wrong, that's not my place.

But my point has been, do you believe Republicans are perplexed, as a party, as to where they wanna be on abortion, other than just saying what they really think, because it's not a winning issue, per se?

Does it make any sense?

- I think it was a lot easier when you had Roe v Wade, as the law of the land, and you got to then say, I am pro-life, I'm ready to overturn it.

Because it didn't mean much, you weren't gonna be held to account.

You know, and I've written about this, you know, several months ago, and I think many other observers have noted it too.

The moment you took the decisions about how to regulate the use of this procedure, of abortion, and put it back to the states, you can have states like Alabama, you can have states like Texas, which are gonna impose severe restrictions.

You can have places like New Jersey, where it's not popular.

The problem was, that now legislators, it's in their court.

And so they had to come up - It's real.

With, it's real.

- It's real now, Ben.

- And now they have to be called to account.

And so people are saying, well, what is your position?

And you had several, any number of Republicans who tried to deflect, who tried to pivot, to talk about the other things that they wanted to talk about.

You had Democrats hammering, then you had outside groups getting involved, because it's suddenly, no, this is not some thing that is getting decided by nine people in black robes anymore.

Now, the decisions like this, whether we're gonna be a state like Texas, or whether we're gonna be a state like Florida, whether we're gonna be a state that is in tune with the people of New Jersey, these issues, like abortion, are really coming home, and I think it's gonna generate a number of folks who wanna get involved and I think that's why we saw the results we did.

- Before I let you go, Ben, we're doing this program in November, toward the back end of November.

It looks like Tammy Murphy's gonna run for the United States Senate seat.

Bob Menendez, eight, nine, 10% approval rating in the last poll I saw.

Question, got a minute left.

Tammy Murphy, running for the US Senate, the wife of Governor Murphy, the First Lady.

She has every right to run, but for those who say, "Hey, wait a minute, where's this coming from?"

Tom Moran and nj.com, Rita said, "Can't we do better?

Shouldn't we do better" Thoughts on this?

Is it a lock?

- No, it's not a lock, it's never been done.

I mean, that's the thing that we're talking about.

You've seen, we've seen spouses, who replace a, their husband, a female spouse who replaces the husband, who died in office.

And so you have Lindy Boggs, in Louisiana, taking over for Hale Boggs, - Yep, Hale Boggs.

- who was a sort of a legendary Majority Leader of the House, when he tragically died in a plane accident.

So you have things like that.

But this, to sort of have a sitting governor, and have his wife, who is a qualified candidate.

I mean, she has been - Very.

- involved in this administration, she has - Maternal health.

- staked out, maternal health has been a big issue for her.

So I think she has a lot to bring, and that's when we're gonna turn it over to the voters.

For people who say, who aren't gonna buy it, who don't like her, or don't, or choose somebody else, then they'll get to choose.

That's the way this will work and that's the way it should be.

- Ben Dworkin, talk about democracy and where we are.

I talked to Dr. Ben Dworkin, Director of the Rowan Institute for Public Policy and Citizenship.

Rowan, a higher ed, one of our higher ed partners.

Ben, thanks my friend we appreciate it.

- Thank you so much, Steve.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

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