>>> WELL, SMARTPHONES AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAVE ALTERED CHILDREN'S DEVELOPMENT, AND OUR NEXT GUEST IS ISSUING A CALL TO ACTION.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, JONATHAN HAIDT INVESTIGATING THE COLLAPSE OF MENTAL HEALTH.

HE JOINS HARI TO TALK ABOUT HOW PARENTS CAN MANAGE THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS.

>> JONATHAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR NEXT BOOK IS CALLED "THE ANXIOUS GENERATION."

AND YOU AND I HAVE TALKED BEFORE, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY CAREFUL ABOUT NOT SEEMING ALARMIST AND THIS BOOK, WHAT'S FASCINATING TO ME ABOUT IT, IS THAT YOU SUPPLEMENT SO MUCH OF YOUR IDEAS WITH EMPIRICAL DATA AND RESEARCH THAT IS PROVING THIS POINT.

WHAT IS THE EPIDEMIC OF MENTAL ILLNESS, AND WHERE DO WE FIND THE DATA FOR THAT?

>> WHEN YOU AND I FIRST SPOKE ABOUT THIS, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BACK IN 2019, I WAS NOT AS ALARMIST, BECAUSE WE WEREN'T SURE.

IT WAS CLEAR THAT SOMETHING WAS GOING WRONG WITH TEEN MENTAL HEALTH.

WE HAD GRAPHS SHOWING THAT IN 2013 THAT RATES BEGAN RISING.

BUT THIS WAS AN ACADEMIC DEBATE, AND THERE STILL IS, ABOUT WHETHER IT'S CAUSED BY SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT'S CORRELATED WITH IT.

GIRLS WHO USE IT HEAVILY HAVE THREE-TIMES AS LIKELY TO BE DEPRESSED, BUT SCIENTISTS ARE GOING TO DEBATE, IT IS CAUSAL, OR JUST A CORRELATION?

SINCE THEN, I'VE LEARNED A LOT.

I'VE GATHERED ALL THE STUDIES I CAN, INCLUDE, EXPERIMENTS.

THERE ARE EXPERIMENTS THAT SHOW WHEN YOU RANDOMLY ASSIGN PEOPLE TO DIFFERENT CONDITIONS, IT CAUSES THEM TO GET MORE DEPRESSED OR LESS DEPRESSED.

SO BUT THE REALLY SHOCKING THING TO ME, THAT REALLY MADE ME INTO A -- I'D LIKE TO SAY AN ALARM THE DISCOVERY THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED TO US IN AMERICA AS HAPPENED IN CANADA, BRITAIN, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, AND SCANDINAVIA.

AT THE SAME TIME IN THIS SAME WAY.

HITTING GIRLS HARDEST, AND YOUNG GIRLS EVEN HARDER.

SO, ONCE IT BECAME CLEAR, THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL EPIDEMIC OF TEEN MENTAL ILLNESS.

IT BEGAN IN THE EARLY 2010s.

IT'S HITTING GIRLS HARDEST, THOUGH THE BOYS STORY IS REALLY INTERESTING AND IS VERY BAD, IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

SO, THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN IN THIS BOOK, IF YOU WANT TO SAY I'M SORT OF LEAVING MY OLD SELF BEHIND AND SAYING, WE NEED TO ACT, LIKE, NOW, NOT IN 2025, LIKE, WE NEED TO REALLY MAKE CHANGES THIS YEAR, BECAUSE OTHERWISE, ANOTHER YEAR OF KIDS IS GOING TO BE CONSIGNED TO THIS PHONE-BASED CHILDHOOD, WHICH INTERFERES WITH DEVELOPMENT.

>> SO, YOUR ARGUMENT IS NOT THAT IT'S THE TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BAD OR THAT IT'S THE INTERNET THAT'S BAD, YOU ACTUALLY TRY TO DRAW A TIMELINE FROM, WELL, GETTING ONE OF THESE SUPER COMPUTERS IN YOUR POCKET TO THE FRONT-FACING SELFIE CAMERA TO BROADBAND AND THEN SOCIAL MEDIA, I MEAN, WHAT HAVE EACH OF THESE KIND OF TECHNOLOGICAL EVOLUTIONS DONE TO HOW OUR BRAINS EVOLVE?

>> SO, THE TECHNOLOGY, THAT TECHNOLOGY IS GREAT, THE INTERNET IS GREAT, BUT THINGS REALLY CHANGE IN THE EARLY 2010s.

SO, JUST TO WALK YOU THROUGH IT, IN 2010, I REALLY GO INTO THIS IN DETAIL IN THE BOOK, IN 2011, ONLY 20% OF AMERICAN TEENS HAD A SMARTPHONE.

KIDS WERE STILL USING FLIP PHONES.

THEY DID NOT HAVE HIGH SPEED INTERNET, MOST OF THEM.

THEY DID NOT HAVE UNLIMITED DATA PLANS.

YOU USE YOUR FLIP PHONE TO TEXT OR CALL YOUR FRIENDS TO GET TOGETHER.

THAT'S IT.

KIDS WERE STILL SEEING OTHER KIDS IN 2010.

THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF WHAT I CALL THE GREAT REWIRING.

OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS, THE SMARTPHONE GETS A FRONT-FACING CAMERA IN 2010, INSTA GRAM COMES OUT IN 2010, BUT IT BECOMES SUPER POPULAR IN 2012 WHEN FACEBOOK BUYS IT.

SO, THAT'S WHEN THE GIRLS REALLY SOCIALIZING ONTO INSTAGRAM.

YOU GET THE SUPER VIRAL SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

SO, YOU GET FRONT-FACING CAMERA, HIGH SPEED DATA, OH, YOU GET NOTIFICATIONS, THE ORIGINAL iPHONE DIDN'T INTERRUPT YOU, YOU PULLED IT UP WHEN YOU WANTED IT.

SO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IN 2010, THERE IS NO SIGN OF A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

EVERYTHING IS FINE.

SO, WE WERE ALL SUPER OPTIMISTIC IN 2011, EVEN UP TO 2012.

BUT THAT'S WHEN THE MENTAL ILLNESS CRISIS BEGINS, AND ALL THE NUMBERS GO WAY UP FOR GIRLS AND ALSO UP SUBSTANTIALLY FOR BOYS, THAT BY 2015, WE HAVE THE MILLENNIALS, THEY JUST BARELY MADE I PUBERTY BEFORE THEY GOT THIS.

THEY WERE IN COLLEGE OR LATE HIGH SCHOOL WHEN THEY ADOPTED THIS PHONE-BASED LIFE.

WE'RE ALL DOING IT.

WE'RE ALL DOMINATED BY OUR TECHNOLOGY.

>> WALK US THROUGH THE ACTUAL HARMS THAT'S NOW SCIENTIFICALLY CONNECTED TO KIDS USE AND INCREASED USE OF SCREENS AND SOCIAL MEDIA SPECIFICALLY ON SMARTPHONES.

>> SO, FIRST WE HAVE TO ESTABLISH THE NUMBERS HERE, WHICH ARE STUNNING.

THE LATEST DATA FROM GALLUP IS AROUND NINE HOURS A DAY IS WHAT THEY SPEND ON THEIR PHONES AND SCREENS.

FIVE HOURS A DAY OF THAT IS SOCIAL MEDIA, ANOTHER THREE TO FIVE IS ALL THE OTHER STUFF THAT THEY DO.

SO, IMAGINE IF YOUR CHILD, IF YOU TAKE NINE OR TEN HOURS OUT OF THEIR DAY EVERY SINGLE DAY, WHERE IS IT GOING TO COME FROM?

THEY SPEND LESS TIME SLEEPING.

LESS TIME WITH OTHER KIDS.

LESS TIME OUTSIDE.

LESS TIME EXERCISING.

A LOT MORE TIME BEING SOLITARY.

OH, VERY LITTLE READING OF BOOKS, NO HOBBIES, THERE'S NO TIME.

THERE'S NO TIME FOR ANYTHING.

SO, THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

IT PUSHES OUT ALL THE GOOD THINGS OF CHILDHOOD THAT WE WANT OUR KIDS TO HAVE.

WHEN YOU GIVE A KID A SMARTPHONE, IT'S LIKELY TO MOVE TO THE CENTER OF HER LIFE, AND THAT'S WHAT SHE'S GOING TO DO FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.

SO, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN WAYS OF HARM.

IT JUST DEPRIVES YOU OF EVERYTHING ELSE.

IT ALSO FRAGMENTS YOUR ATTENTION.

YOU AND I ARE PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, WE CAN PAY ATTENTION TO THINGS, WE CAN DO OUR WORK, BUT IT'S HARDER NOW THAN IT WAS TEN YEARS AGO.

THERE'S CONSTANT INTERRUPTIONS, BUT WE'RE STILL ABLE TO DO IT, BUT OUT'S A STRUGGLE.

A TEENAGER JUST STARTING PUBERTY, AGE 10, 11, 12, THE PREFRONTAL CORTEX HAS NOT YET REWIRED FOR THE ADULT CONFIGURATION, THEY'RE NOT DUR THEY'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT PAYING ATTENTION.

AND EARLY PUBERTY IS WHEN THAT SKILL REALLY DEVELOPS, AND SO, TO HAVE THEM TRYING TO DEVELOP THAT SKILL WHILE BEING INTERRUPTED EVERY FEW MINUTES, THE AVERAGE TEEN NOW GETS, ONE STUDY FOUND, 257 NOTIFICATIONS A DAY.

257 INTERRUPTIONS EVERY DAY.

IT'S VERY HARD TO FOCUS ON ANYTHING.

SO, YOU GET FRAGMENTED ATTENTION, AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW PERMANENT THIS IS.

ANOTHER HARM IS ADDICTION.

THE BRAIN ADAPTS TO THAT CONSTANT LEVEL OF STIMULATIONS, SO, WHEN YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT, YOU'RE IN A DEFICIT MODE.

YOU ARE UNHAPPY, YOU FEEL TERRIBLE.

SO, THESE DEVICES ARE DESIGNED TO GRAB HOLD OF OUR KIDS' ATTENTION AND NEVER LET GO AND THEY ARE VERY EFFECTIVE.

I COULD GO ON.

THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER AVENUES OF HARM, BUT THERE ARE SOME OF THE BIG ONES I COVER IN THE BOOK.

>> CAN WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ALSO THE DATA AND HOW IT WORKS ON THE IMPACTS TO GIRLS VERSUS BOYS?

>> WHEN I STARTED WRITING THE BOOK, I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE A STORY PRIMARILY ABOUT WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA IS DOING TO GIRLS, BECAUSE I'VE GOT A LOT OF DATA ON THAT, AND BECAUSE THE GRAPHS ARE LIKE HOCKEY STICKS.

THEY ARE GOING ALONG, THERE'S NOTHING HAPPENING, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, ONE DAY IN 2013, THEY ALL START SHOOTING UPWARDS.

AND IT'S THE HOSPITALIZATIONS FOR SELF-HARM THAT ARE MOST STUNNING, AND THEY'RE THE SAME IN BRITAIN, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, IT'S ABSOLUTELY STUNNING WHAT'S HAPPENED TO GIRLS SINCE 2013.

FOR BOYS, I COULDN'T FIND A SMOKING GUN, I COULDN'T SAY, OH, WELL, IT'S VIDEO GAMES, OR, IT'S SOCIAL MEDIA.

FOR BOYS, THE RISE IN MENTAL ILLNESS IS SLOWER, AND THE KEY THING ABOUT BOYS, IT'S NOT SO MUCH THAT IT IS GIVING THEM DIAGNOSABLE MENTAL ILLNESS, WHAT I FOUND OUT WORKING WITH MY RESEARCH PARTNER, WE FINALLY FIGURED OUT IS THAT FOR BOYS, THE ISSUE IS, THEY'VE BEEN WITHDRAWING FROM THE REAL WORLD REALLY SINCE THE '80s AND '90s.

THEY DON'T GO OUTSIDE.

BOYS ARE BASICALLY LOCKED IN THEIR DEVELOPMENT, THEY'RE NOT TURNING INTO MEN, THEY'RE DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL, THEY'RE DEVELOPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE.

SO, WE'RE LOSING A GENERATION OF BOYS.

IT'S NOT AS CLEAR, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WEALTHY EDUCATED GROUPS, THE GENDER GAP IS NOT SO BIG.

ONCE YOU GET TO MIDDLE CLASS AND BELOW, THE GIRLS ARE DOING OKAY IN TERMS OF SCHOOL AND WORK, AND THE BOYS ARE JUST NOT.

SO, THE PROBLEMS ARE MORE DIFFUSE, BUT THEY ARE EXTREMELY SERIOUS FOR BOYS.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY PARENTS THAT WILL TELL YOU THAT IF YOU TAKE A SMARTPHONE AWAY FROM A CHILD, THAT THERE'S ALMOST LIKE -- THAT YOU'VE BROKEN THIS TRACTOR BEAM, THEY'VE HAD THIS LOCK AND THEY'RE REALLY GENERALLY SPEAKING, AGGRESSIVE.

IT'S A VERY STRANGE EQUATION, IT'S LIKE, IF IT WAS ANY OTHER KIND OF AN ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCE OR DRUG, A PARENT WOULD PROBABLY SAY, LET'S GET THAT OUT OF THE HOUSE AND NOT USE IT.

>> THE MOST POWERFUL ARGUMENT A KID CAN MAKE IS, MOM, I HAVE TO HAVE A SMARTPHONE, BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE HAS ONE, AND I'LL BE LEFT OUT.

I HAVE TO HAVE INSTA GRAM, BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE HAS IT, AND I'LL BE LEFT OUT.

SO, THAT'S WHAT'S CALLED A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM.

IT'S HARD FOR US AS PARENTS, BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING THIS.

AND SO, WHAT I'M PROPOSING IS THAT WE COORDINATE, WE SET SOME NORMS, AND NORMS THAT WILL BE HARD TO DO ON OUR OWN, BUT MUCH EASIER TO DO IF WE DO THEM TOGETHER.

SO, JUST TO GO BACK TO THE PARENT STRUGGLING TO PUT LIMITS ON, TO MAYBE GIVE A WARNING, WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING IS ACTUALLY QUINTESSENTIAL WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS FROM ANY DRUG.

WHEN BRAIN CIRCUITS ARE USED TO GETTING THIS STIMULATION, WHETHER IT'S COCAINE, HEROIN, SLOT MACHINES, OR SOCIAL MEDIA, IF THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY, WHEN YOU TAKE THE KID OFF, THEY FEEL HORRIBLE FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS, IT TAKES TWO, THREE WEEKS -- THREE, FOUR WEEKS, ACTUALLY, TO DETOX.

IT'S VITAL WE GIVE OUR KIDS, THAT WE DELAY THE ENTRY INTO THIS CRAZINESS AND WE GIVE OUR KIDS TIME AWAY.

>> LET'S DEAL WITH SOME OF THE RESERVATIONS THAT I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD.

YOU KNOW, BESIDES MY KID IS GOING TO MISS OUT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK PARENTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IS GIVING THEIR KIDS DEVICES TO BE ABLE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM IN AN EMERGENCY.

WHAT ARE WAYS TO DO THAT WITHOUT NECESSARILY GIVING THEM A FULL SMARTPHONE LOADED WITH SOCIAL MEDIA?

>> AS A PARENT OF TWO HIGH SCHOOL KIDS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE TO BE ABLE TO REACH YOUR CHILDREN, AND THE DESIRE FOR THEM TO REACH YOU IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

WE'RE NOT SAYING CUT THEM OFF AND DON'T COMMUNICATE.

WE'RE SAYING, DON'T GIVE THEM THE MOST POWERFUL DISTRACTION DEVICE TO HAVE IN THEIR POCKET ALL THE TIME, INCLUDING WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO SLEEP, WHEN THEY'RE IN CLASS.

SO, GIVE THEM A FLIP PHONE.

THE MILLENNIALS HAD FLIP PHONES AND THEY TURNED OUT FINE.

MY SECOND POINT, THOUGH, IS SCHOOL SECURITY EXPERTS SAY THERE ARE PROCEDURES IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH A SCHOOL SHOOTING AND THEY INVOLVE LISTENING AND COOPERATING AND WORKING TOGETHER WITH THE TEACHER AND THE ADMINISTRATION, SO, WHERE WOULD YOU RATHER SEND YOUR KID?

I WOULD ASK ANY PARENTS WHO HAVE THIS CONCERN, AND WE ALL HAVE THE CONCERN, WOULD YOU RATHER SEND YOUR KID TO A SCHOOL IN WHICH WHEN THERE'S A POTENTIAL PROBLEM, EVERYONE, THEY ARE SILENT, THEY FOLLOW DIRECTIONS, THEY DO WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO, THEY FOLLOW THE PROCEDURE?

WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE ONE WHERE AT THE FIRST SIGN OF A SERIOUS PROBLEM, EVERYONE IS CRYING TO THEIR PARENTS ON THE PHONE, NOT LISTENING, SO, AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN URGE TO TALK TO YOUR KID IF THERE'S A CRISIS, BUT THE TEACHER HAS A PHONE.

ALL THE ADMINISTRATORS HAVE PHONES.

SO, WE HAVE TO LET THE PROFESSIONALS DO THEIR JOB AND NOT INTERFERE AS PARENTS.

>> ONE OF THE IDEA, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF COMMUNITIES WHO HAVE FOUND EACH OTHER OVER SOCIAL MEDIA.

IN A SECTION IN YOUR BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW IRONICALLY SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES THAT MIGHT FIND THE MOST BENEFIT ARE ALSO THE ONES WHO ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE LARGEST OF NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> YEAH, SO, WE OFTEN CONFUSE THE INTERNET AND SOCIAL MEDIA.

WHAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED IS A PROBLEM THAT THE INTERNET LARGELY SOLVED.

KIDS WHO ARE ISOLATED IN THE '90s, THEY COULD FIND, IF YOU ARE GAY, IF YOU ARE BI, IF YOU ARE TRANS, THEY COULD FIND OTHER KIDS.

THE INTERNET IS AMAZING FOR THAT.

ONCE YOU START GETTING COMMUNITIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WHAT YOU GET IS A MOVE TO THE EXTREMES.

SO, LET'S LOOK AT MENTAL HEALTH TUMBLR OR INSTAGRAM OR TIKTOK.

YOU MIGHT THINK, IT'S GREAT THAT A PERSON CAN INTERACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT SHARE THEIR DISORDER.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

THERE'S JUST INCREASING AMOUNTS OF RESEARCH THAT SOCIAL MEDIA IS SPREADING MENTAL ILLNESS.

IT'S JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE TEENAGERS HANGING OUT WITH INFLUENCERS WHO ARE -- WHO ARE MOTIVATED TO BE MORE EXTREME TO GET FOLLOWERS.

SO, I DON'T BUY THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS SOMEHOW GOOD FOR MEMBERS OF HISTOICALLY MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.

AND STUDIES SHOW THAT WHILE MOST KIDS RECOGNIZE THAT THESE PLATFORMS ARE BAD FOR THEM, LGBTQ KIDS ARE EVEN MORE VOCIFEROUS IN SAYING, THESE PLATFORMS ARE BAD FOR US, THEY LEAD TO BULLYING AND HARASSMENT.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE INTERNET IS AMAZING, BUT SOCIAL MEDIA DOES FAR MORE HARM TO KIDS THAN WHATEVER SHREDS OF BENEFIT YOU CAN FIND FROM IT.

>> YOU HAVE TAKEN THIS MESSAGE TO SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES DIRECTLY.

ARE THEY GETTING IT?

>> WELL, THERE'S BEEN NO RESPONSE, CERTAINLY.

THEY, I THINK THEY'RE KIND OF HEMMED IN, WELL -- I SHOULD PUT IT THIS WAY.

META DID TRY A SMALL THING, THEY TRIED HIDING THE LIKE COUNTER, THAT DIDN'T WORK.

I'VE SPOKEN WITH THEIR RESEARCH STAFF THERE, I'VE SPOKEN WITH LEADERSHIP THERE, I DO BELIEVE THAT IF THEY COULD MAKE IT HEALTHIER AND NOT LOSE ANY USERS, THEY WOULD DO IT.

BUT META IN PARTICULAR HAS SHOWN IT HAS ALWAYS PRIORITIZED GROWTH OVER EVERYTHING ELSE.

THERE HAVE BEEN WHISTLE-BLOWERS TALKING ABOUT IT.

THEY DON'T DO THINGS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE, BECAUSE THEY WOULD KICK OFF UNDERAGE USERS.

THEY KNOW HOW OLD EVERYBODY IS.

WHEN 11, 12-YEAR-OLDS HAVE AN INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT, THEY SHOULD BE KICKED OFF.

THEY WON'T DO THAT.

BECAUSE THEY'LL LOSE MOST OF THEIR USERS.

SO, THEY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE.

THERE ARE BEEN MANY REPORTS, AND THEY DON'T ACT.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO, BECAUSE CONGRESS GAVE THEM IMMUNITY FROM LAWSUITS.

WE HAVE THIS THING, THIS ENVIRONMENT THAT IS INCREDIBLY TOXIC FOR OUR KIDS' DEVELOPMENT, AND WE CAN'T SUE THEM.

>> THEY'RE AT A SENATE HEARING, CEO OF META, MARK ZUCKERBERG, SAID, QUOTE, THE EXISTING BODY OF SCIENTIFIC WORK HAS NOT SHOWN A CAUSAL LINK BETWEEN USING SOCIAL MEDIA AND YOUNG PEOPLE HAVING WORSE MENTAL HEALTH.

>> UH-HUH.

>> IS HE MISINFORMED BY HIS LAWYERS?

>> NO, HE'S PROPERLY INFORMED BY HIS LAWYERS THAT HE CAN POINT TO STUDIES THAT SUPPORT THAT CONCLUSION.

HE CAN POINT TO SOME -- A FEW META ANALYSIS THAT SUPPORT THAT, A STUDY BY THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE THAT CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION.

BUT THERE IS SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF THE OTHER SIDE.

THEY'RE CHERRY-PICKING.

IN THAT VERY REPORT, PEOPLE SHOULD READ CHAPTER FOUR, IT'S AN AMAZING CATALOG OF -- OF THE RESEARCH THAT SHOWS CAUSALITY.

SO, IT'S A BIZARRE REPORT, IN WHICH THE REPORT ITSELF DOCUMENTS DOZENS AND DOZENS OF AVENUES OF HARM AND DOZENS OF EXPERIMENTS, BUT YET, FOR SOME REASON, THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN, THEY SAID, WELL, WE CAN'T PROVE THAT IT'S CAUSAL.

IF YOU GO TO MY SUBSTACK, I'VE GONE THROUGH ALL OF THE STUDIES, WHAT WE -- WE ITEMIZED AND SHOW HOW THE CORRELATIONAL STUDIES COME OUT, HOW THE EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES COME OUT.

THERE IS A TON OF EVIDENCE, THE PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE SHOWS IT'S NOT JUST A CORRELATION, IT'S A CAUSE.

ZUCKERBERG WAS POINTING TO THE FEW STUDIES HE COULD, BUT IN THE LONG RUN, I BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE THAT CASE, BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE KEEPS MOUNTING, AND BY NOW, EVERYBODY SEES IT.

THE TEACHERS, THE PARENTS, ALL THOSE PARENTS WE SAW AT THAT SENATE HEARING, LIKE, WERE THEY WRONG THAT THEIR KID, YOU KNOW, THAT THEIR KID IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WERE THEY ALL WRONG ABOUT THAT?

SO, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, IT JUST DEIES BELIEF THAT SOCIAL MEDIA ISN'T CONTRIBUTING TO THIS MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT LEGISLATION LIKE WHAT RON DeSANTIS IS PROPOSING IN FLORIDA.

>> Reporter: OR OTHER STATES ARE THINKING ABOUT DOING, TO TRY TO DELAY, OR BAN THE USE OF SOCIAL MEDIA BY A CERTAIN AGE, WILL WORK?

>> I THINK THE DeSANTIS BILL IS GREAT.

I THINK THE FLORIDA BILL IS GREAT.

WE HAVE TO DELAY THE AGE AT WHICH THEY GET INTO SOCIAL MEDIA.

I THINK 16 IS THE RIGHT AGE.

FOR HEALTH REASONS, IT SHOULD BE 18, BUT REALISTICALLY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET 18.

16, I THINK, IS A REASONABLE COMPROMISE AT WHICH WE CAN BEGIN TREATING KIDS LIKE ADULTS ON THE INTERNET.

RIGHT NOW, CURRENT LAW SAYS 13.

AT 13, THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT TO YOUR KIDS.

THEY CAN TREAT THEM LIKE ADULTS.

THAT'S CURRENT LAW.

AND THERE'S ZERO ENFORCEMENT.

IF THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR KID IS 10, THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO YOUR KID.

SO, THE CURRENT LAW IS HORRIBLE, IT'S NOT ENFORCED, THE AGE IS TOO LOW, IT'S 13, WE NEED TO RAISE THAT TO 16 AND ENFORCE IT.

AND THAT'S WHAT IF FLORIDA BILL IS GOING TO DO.

THEY HAVE A LITTLE CARVE OUT SO THAT IF PARENTS REALLY WANT THEIR KID TO BE ON AT 14 AND 15, THEY CAN SIGN A PERMISSION.

THAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THE TECH COMPANIES IMPLEMENT THAT, BUT I'M A BIG FAN OF THE FLORIDA BILL.

I HOPE ALL 50 STATES DO IT, BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE SOCIAL MEDIA SAFE FOR MIDDLE SCHOOL CHILDREN.

>> AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR JONATHAN HAIDT, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.