According to Pew Research, Asian-Americans are the fastest growing, best educated, and highest income racial group in the United States.

But while this diverse community has excelled in a number of areas, they are still experiencing challenges in reaching executive and management leadership positions in the U.S. What's behind this glass ceiling and what's being done to break it?

Joining us today are Senator Dr. Richard Pan and Ascend corporate leadership advisor Buck Gee.

Senator Pan, what exactly is this glass ceiling issue?

Well, the glass ceiling is where, uh, Asians and Pacific Islanders, basically, uh- Well, some subgroups- and I want to be very clear.

There's a tremendous diversity in the AAPI community.

In fact, the Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander community, many Southeast Asians, uh, other Asians actually have challenges even, uh, succeeding in getting into college and... and suffer tremendous socioeconomic, uh, disparities.

Uh, but there are some subsegments, uh, people look around and say, "Wow!

You're doing well."

And you see them at entry level positions in tech, you see them as doctors, you see them as lawyers.

But yet, when you look at management and you look at the C-suite and you look at the corporate boards, they're not there.

We're not there.

And oftentimes, that's based on, um, myths, uh, on stereotypes about Asians as not being management material, not being leaders.

Uh, you see this in politics, where rarely you see Asians in the executive positions.

So, this is a big problem for our community.

Hmm.

Buck, there is a perception that the AAPI community is, as Richard alluded to, a model minority, and has done exceptionally well in comparison to other ethnic groups.

What is the impact of that perception on the AA... AAPI community and its aspirations to truly take all of the places that people are prepared to participate in?

Well, Richard said it right.

Um, the- We... we are plentiful through... through- in... in... in- uh, in numbers in corporate and in politics and so forth.

We are probably getting... getting up the management chain.

The... the problem is, actually, uh, and you talk- The quote, the "model minority" stereotype, um, is a positive stereotype.

You know, we're... we're good in math.

You know, we're hardworking, uh, we're dependable, reliable.

But there's a... there's a... there's a not so hidden under... undertone to that- But, you know, that's all we're good at.

We're not good at politics.

We're not good at leadership.

We're not good at managing.

We're not good at this.

We're not good at that.

But... but we're good at math.

So, that's the model minority myth, and the flip side of the... of the... of- the good side and the bad side of that.

Hmm.

Senator, how does this issue for the AAPI community differ from other communities that are seeking greater representation on corporate boards and senior management positions?

Well, frankly, uh, it's a common problem with other, uh, groups as well.

It's grounded in stereotypes and racism.

Right?

So, while- Again, uh, certain subsegments of the AAPI community and, particularly, subsegments of the Asian community- I think the Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander community has been facing this issue across the board for their community- they're, um- Because of the model minority myth- and I want to emphasize that's a myth, right?

- it seems like, that, "Oh, well, Asians are doing well."

In fact, it's used to play us against other groups, Blacks, Latinos, other... other groups.

But the reality is all of us are affected by racism.

And that racism applies- may apply in somewhat different circumstances at times, but the real issue is... is that, why are Asians who seem to be doing well, going to the top colleges, getting into the top firms, et cetera, not able to move up?

Is it because they're truly not talented?

They're not able to do that?

We know that's not true.

Those are the same excuses we hear for other groups as well.

Blacks, Latinos, others.

"Oh, you're just not good enough to get into the top colleges.

You're not good enough to get into the top firms.

You're not good enough to be managers or CEOs."

And we know that's not true.

As you both are aware, uh, I've been involved in, uh, trying to move diverse people into senior management positions in corporate boards for a number of years, myself.

And one of the things, when you talk in the C-suites and boardrooms across the country, is, "Well, we just can't find people that are qualified, or who've had the experience."

Buck, I want to come to you and ask you what does the data show in terms of where it is that AAPI professionals are at, and where is it that they're stuck?

So... so, uh, I...

I want to get, uh, back to you.

I want...

I want to, um, go... go to, um, uh, something that, um, uh, something that Richard's saying about... about... about, um, not getting to the top.

And then, not... not- And... and... and the fact that we're talented, but they don't... don't think we're talented.

Um, I want to tell the story that, um, the- a story that came up, actually, at a panel that... that, uh, Richard and the API Legislative Caucus put together a couple of years ago, I think it was, in, uh, Silicon Valley.

And... and it was a story of, uh, some Hollywood writers- I don't... if you remember this- um, writing a TV script for a strong Asian man.

And so, the two Asian writers, um, wrote this... wrote this part for... for... for a Asian man.

Then, they went to the talent people and said, "Go find me a strong Asian man," and... and... and a couple weeks later, they came back and they said, "There are no strong Asian men."

What?

And... and then- And the tal- And the writers got so mad, they went out and found somebody... and said, "Oh, yeah, there's one."

So... so, the- Part of the problem is, number one, you know, the... the implicit bias.

"There are no strong Asian men."

Number two, more importantly, they weren't in the... they weren't in the networks the talent agents were looking at.

They're out there, but not looking for- They don't know where to look for 'em.

And that's part of... that's part of the problem with... with finding executive directors, is that you're- if- it's- I won't say it's an old boy's network, but... but you find directors from people- from references, typically, um, from... from members of the board.

So, unless you explicitly go find- look for them, you're not going to find them, because you don't know them.

Come back, though, Buck, to the issue of the data as to- I know you've done research in this area and where are the people who should be moving into these positions, and how does that look acro... across the corporations you study?

Well, generally, um, what you... what you find is that in... in... in companies- Uh, many companies, I'll say this, in California- and most- many companies, especially in tech- Asians are the largest cohort of... of white-collar jo- white-collar, um, people, in... in the workforce, uh, is one example, for example, I'll...

I'll tell you.

And I... and I'll use Facebook as a simple example, but I'm not picking on Facebook.

For example, Facebook.

Uh, half the... half the white-collar workforce at Facebook- actually, half the company at Facebook is Asian.

OK?

And then you look at the management, it's about 35% of the management is Asian.

Then you look at senior management, and it's 25% Asian.

Now... now, many people look those numbers and... and they say, "What do you have to complain about?

You're 6% of the population, but 25% of the- of leadership."

Well, our complaint is, if you actually look at promotion rates, Asians at Facebook are the lowest- are least likely race to be promoted from... contributor to manager, least likely promoted from managers to senior managers.

So, we're not complaining about representation.

We're looking for equitable... equitable promotion rates.

So, that's... that's the data.

Ok, and that's- Again, I'm not picking on Facebook.

That's very similar data, across the board, in California companies.

Wow.

Senator Pan, this- for many people who are listening to this conversation, they're hearing about this for the first time.

Does this country have a blind spot on this issue?

Um, we do have a blind spot on this issue, and, uh, that's why it's so important for people to understand the history.

Uh, that's why we're requiring ethnic studies, uh, for high school graduation in the state of California.

That's why it's important to have these discussions.

Sometimes, even in our own communities, we have a blind spot to this, as we have discussions about affirmative action for, uh, for college admissions.

Because, as you pointed out, um, before, in many ways, the common excuse for saying, "Well, why aren't there people of color in leadership positions in corporate America, in politics, and other areas?"

And oftentimes, people say, "Oh, there's a pipeline problem."

Right?

And yes, many communities of color are disadvantaged, uh, and have- uh, therefore, have many more barriers to getting to college, then from college to grad school or professional school, and then onward.

But actually, when you look at the AAPI community, again, for only certain subsegments- I want to emphasize this is not- There's other AAPI who suffer, who actually have problems earlier on.

When you look at, as Buck Gee's talked about, in tech and in medicine- right?

- you see people talk about, "Oh, look at the disproportionate number of Asians who are doctors."

Right?

But yet, when you look- or even medical school faculty.

But yet, when you look at who are the department chairs?

Who are the deans?

Who are the people in the leadership positions?

Suddenly, we're not there.

In fact, when you look at U.S. medical school deans, I think we've only been able to find one- maybe there might be a second one out there- in 150 medical schools.

That is definitely way underrepresented.

So, why is that?

Right?

So, somewhere, these model minority myths, other myths about people's, uh, culture and race- Right?

And we've seen this even during COVID- right?

- uh, that people make assumptions about particular races and their, uh, predilection for disease, uh, their predil- their... their leadership abilities, and other types of things, and- So, this is a problem that actually cuts across all ethnic groups, all races.

We may experience it in different ways, but certainly, for the AAPI community, for certain subsegments, this glass ceiling is, again, proof that the, uh, the so-called, uh, "pipeline problem" is not the real problem.

The real problem is racism and discrimination.

That's an important distinction to make, because the conventional wisdom, or assumption, is that there's always a pipeline problem, because it is, as you say, faced by so many.

But in this case, it... it is different and has to be really looked at on its own merits.

Which leads me to another question, Buck, which is- Let's drill down a little bit more.

What is the story, with regards to this issue on the glass ceiling, if you look at the data based on gender within the AAPI community?

So, um, let me- I'm going to answer that in a minute, but I...

I do want to make one additional comment to... to Richard's remark.

That is, um, I...

I...

I want people to understand, um, it is... it is a racial problem.

Uh, it's also... it's also a cultural problem, too, with... with regard to the Asian-Americans, that this is- There's... there's... there's a disconnect because, um, Asian- so much of the Asian-Americans in California right now are... are first generation immigrants.

And... and there's a cultural... there's a cultural difference between how leadership is perceived and... and... and... and promoted in the East versus the West.

And people have to understand that.

That's something we have to get over, too.

I'm not...

I'm not suggesting that it's not a racism- racial question here, um, but I also- there are some things we can do, too, to help the organization.

With regard to your question about... about, um, race and gender, that's one of the things that really came out, um, um, out of the data.

Uh, I... I- When I started working this, I was actually working with, uh, some people at, uh, the... the, uh, Clayman Institute at Stanford for, uh, for gender research.

And this is one of the things they had been wanting to look at, is... is... is race and gender.

And what I saw when... when I started getting into the... getting into the EEOC data, um, they were surprised as much as we were.

And what we found- What we find is this, um- and again, I...

I... I- just in California, for example- there's been great strides in... in the gender gap, in terms of the glass ceiling, in California, in corporate, with regard to women.

But when you break it down by race and gender, it turns out that almost all the progress that's been made has... has accrued to white women.

Um, Black, Hispanic, and Asian women have not increased their... their proportional representation at high levels.

And are you talking about senior management, as well as board representation?

- Senior... senior- I...

I'm principally looking at senior management.

I'm looking- principally looking at senior management.

Um, and so... um, and so, when you break it down by race and gender, you get a wholly different view of what's going on with regard to gender.

In fact, look at the- If you look at the data, for Asian women, it turns out race is... factor- bigger factor than gender in terms of... in terms of the impact on... on... on promotions.

Hmm.

It's interesting.

Uh, you were recently, uh, quoted in a USA Today article that also featured a woman named Anne Chow, who's the CEO of AT&T Business, which is a 35- yeah- $35 billion operation with over 30,000 employees.

And she was commenting how she's had to live with, uh, reactions that she's sur... "surprisingly articulate," and that she gets talked over in meetings.

And what she had to say was that her style of leadership is not, sort of, "in-your-face," and that that doesn't mean that she's not strong and that she can't make decisions.

But she said that when she's talking to people, the norms and the assumptions that she's had to deal with are hard to break.

How do the cultural norms within the AAPI community impact perceptions and, by extension, opportunities for advancement?

So, um, this is... this is my point about being the problem- uh, sort of a two-sided problem.

The first side of- The first part of the problem is there is a model minority stereotype.

I'll call it a "stereotype" versus a "myth," OK?

And the reason stereotype is there's enough data.

There's enough people who fit that stereotype, people believe that.

There's... there's a general... general assumption.

So... so, just by seeing your face, uh, people assume you are the quiet, be-good-at-math guy.

Right?

Um, and... and... and for Asian women, it's even worse because not only are you the... not only are you the... the quiet, good-at-math person, but you're also the very quiet, um, woman.

And that's a very- That- And... and... and with regard to promotion rates, the data says Asian women, of any men or women, are the least promoted of anybody.

So, they have this double whammy of being a woman and an Asian.

OK?

Um, so, that's- That... that's... that's the problem.

Um, the problem that I had to face and problem- I don't- and I can just speak for me, and... and I- my advice to people is because you- because people, you're facing a stereotype- OK?

- um, then you have to be explicit about understanding that you have to break the stereotype because, unfortunately, the world is working against you.

Uh, and so, you have to... you have to- I won't say compensate- but just show you're not the stereotype.

That... that's... that's our problem that we have to- Because otherwise, people assume otherwise.

I don't...

I don't know if...

I don't know if Richard has seen the same thing, but that's... that's my experience.

It's interesting you say that that's your prob- you know, that that's "your" problem, because, uh, uh, someone, uh, might observe this conversation and say- and Richard, I...

I...

I want to direct this to you- that the lack of progress in representation, that people at an individual level have to own it for whatever shortcomings or failures for those who didn't make it to the senior roles, rather than trying to blame this on some sort of systemic problem.

How do you respond to that?

Well, and it's unfortunate we don't have an Asian woman with us here today.

We have three men... Well, for the record, we... we... we tried, but- scheduling- didn't make it.

Yes, I...

I know.

And, uh, and I appreciate the effort here.

Uh, but I would also keep in mind that while, certainly, we can try to lean against the stereotype, you get punished for doing that, too.

- Hmm.

- OK.

There are negative consequences - Tell us more about that.

Tell us more about that.

- So, right, it's because people expect you to be the, you know, so when you try to be loud, um, you're a troublemaker.

Right?

The model minority, don't forget the, you know, the dark side of it is that we're the "well-behaving people."

Right?

We're the ones who conform and don't complain about the racism that's imposed on us.

And so, when you do, you get pushback.

If you're- I imagine, again, if we... if we had a woman here, I think she would probably talk about, "Well, great to tell me that I should speak out, but people look at you and say, 'Well, you're not feminine, you're not...' et cetera,'" and you get slammed down.

Right?

Uh, so, again, uh, far be it from me to be the one to... to speak to that.

Um, so, on one hand, uh, you can say that, "Well, we should behave in a different way, and against cultural stereotype," but there are consequences to that, too.

And that doesn't guarantee that you are going to get promoted.

Uh, in fact, it may have a- it may backfire on you as well.

So, we need to understand that the stereotypes that people have of us, uh, box us in and that's why it's so important that we make our stories visible, that we talk about the reality of our situation- right?

- that we talk about these challenges.

Uh, because until the people around us are willing to accept that we are a diverse group- right?

- not all Asians fit the stereotype, uh, and they- we shouldn't be, just like any other group, and we should be judged on our own merits in terms of our opportunities for advancement, but that's not what's happening.

And, uh, and so, people have certain stereotypes and expectations.

So, for example, we know there's research studies that show that if you take the exact same resume and you put a name that's Asian on it versus a name that seems white, the white person is more likely to get an interview.

By the way, also, if you have a Black sounding name or others, right?

The- We know this.

This is before someone even sees the person, in terms of your opportunity to even get a chance to have the conversation.

And so, this is something we have to deal with.

And it's not- It's more than just, "Oh, how do we individually behave?"

Can... can I add on that?

I mean, Richard's right.

There... there... there... there's plenty of research that talks about, um, negative reaction to counter-stereotypical behavior, um, both of women and of... of Asians.

That... that's there.

Um, and... and also, I totally agree that there's- To me, there's... there's- Again, there's... there's- there are two things we need to focus on.

Number one, it is a systemic problem.

So, overall... overall, what do we need to change?

There's systems that create this and systems that... that continue this.

The other comment I...

I...

I made is... is what can you do in the meantime?

In the meantime, individually, rather systemically, the things you can do to try to counter that.

But absolutely, there's systemic issue that needs to be changed.

So, but that leads- That... that leads to the question that I think all of us are thinking about, which is what's being done about this?

Uh, what efforts are ongoing right now, or are in preparation, to try and address this issue and solve it?

So, first of all, in order to solve a problem, you have to identify it and describe it.

So we need better data collection.

And again, I want to thank, uh, Buck Gee for his work because, otherwise, we could see it, we could feel it, but we don't actually measure it, right?

That's also why, for example, in terms of Asian hate, it was so important that AAPI commu- uh, groups came together to collect that data.

Without that data, we would not be knowing that we- that would be unquantified, the amount of hate incidents that the AAPI community is facing.

The other issue is that, oftentimes, data collection does not happen in... in a disaggregated way.

In other words, we don't have data equity.

So, as I talked about, certain Asian subgroups are doing better.

Other ones are not.

Our Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander community is not, but all that gets buried together.

And then finally, I should mention that the AAPI community also is the least examined and, uh, and researched community.

So, as someone who was a former faculty member at a university- I was a faculty member at UC Davis- I don't know how many papers I saw in my field where Asians were not included in there, right?

So, we said, "OK, here's the demographics that are studied- white, Black, sometimes Latino, and the- and 'other.'"

We're "other."

And then in the political realm, because now I'm an elected official, how many polls do you see, you actually see Asians broken out?

So- in terms of the voting.

Right?

So... -It's rare.

-It's rare!

Exactly.

So, therefore, we don't have good data on our community.

That data is important to make our case to the broader community.

'Cause I do believe that most of us, in our society, actually want to have a more equitable society.

But how can we get there if we don't have the data to show people what's going on?

Yeah, and I...

I...

I...

I totally agree with that.

First of all, there's good news and bad news.

Good news is, in terms of stuff that I...

I'm looking at, which is EEOC work... workforce data, yeah, I...

I look at, you know, the... the... the... the community advocates been pushing this for years and years.

Jesse Jackson came out here and- a few years ago and said, "Hey, make your data available."

You know, three years ago, I could get maybe ten or 20 reports from public companies.

Now... now, there are hundreds of reports coming from for... coming from Fortune 500, uh, S&P 500 companies.

So, the community's made people, um, make this public data available, and now people can start to look at it.

That's the good news.

The bad news is there's not enough people looking at it and... and... and really understanding what it means.

But Buck... but Buck, for a... a young person, uh, or middle manager right now, who's aspiring for the C-suite and they recognize the problem and they want to navigate it, where do they go to get the help that they need in order to make that journey themselves?

So, um, a two-part answer.

First... first part of the answer is there... there... there are programs offered by Ascend and other... and other... other organizations.

LEAP, for example, has things in corporate.

I know, um, I know there's things in politics.

For example, I think Andy Lam does something in Sacramento for aspiring politicians.

So, you can... you can find them.

OK?

Um, you... you.. you can find them.

The... the... the one thing I would also- advice I always give people is, um, you need to a- you need to be sure- ask your manager and ask it in this way, OK?

You know, what- "I want this job in X years.

OK. How do I get there?

And... and how can you help me get there?"

So, the one thing that... that... that we think... is... is we need to ask for help.

And we have to openly say, you know, we want to be this.

We want to do this.

We want to be elected.

We want to be in this position.

So, the two things, um, systemically, is, number one, you can go to people to tell you stuff, but you also... you also have to, you know, locally, say, "Hey," tell your managers.

Say, "I want this job, so please help me get there."

And I think we're going to have to...

I think we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you both, gentlemen, and look forward to seeing your future work in this area.

Thank you so very much, Scott.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guests and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.