- [Announcer] This is a production of "PBS" Charlotte.

- This week on "Un-spun", the best and the brightest.

That's who presidents and governors want to surround themselves with when they're choosing a new cabinet.

But you can't always get what you want or who you want.

Sometimes politics gets in the way and sometimes, well, maybe your first choice isn't always your best choice.

Plus, I'll count down the top five characteristics Presidents are looking for in a cabinet member but don't want to tell the public about.

In today's America, welcome to the Spin game.

Believe me, I know I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world in here on "Un-spun".

Good evening.

I'm Pat McCrory and welcome to "Un-spun", the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

It's team Trump versus the Senate in Washington as the political playoffs begin.

Trump's top choices for his new cabinet faced their first week of Senate confirmation hearings, and you'd think they'd all be favored to win since Republicans are now running the show in Congress.

- Senators will have the chance to ask them questions on the record, and the American people will be able to hear directly from the men and women that President Trump has chosen for his administration.

- But behind the scenes, it's not just about who's qualified and who's not, it's also about politicians and their egos.

It's a game of gotcha, and grandstanding and political give and take, individual centers, and both parties have the votes to give.

What somewhat in return is a little bit of fame or a favor, or a few minutes on center stage asking those tough questions.

Plus, it's a rare chance to show the new president whose boss, at least before Trump officially takes office.

And now just like the NFL playoffs, you can watch it all live with highlights going viral as Congress plays political football with the new White House.

Join us now from Capitol Hill during a break in those cabinet confirmation hearings is North Carolina Senator Thom Tillis.

He's a GOP member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which is where Trump choices for Attorney General and the FBI Director are both seeking support before a vote by the full Senate.

Senator Tillis, it's great to have you back in "Un-spun".

Thanks so much, especially on your busy schedule.

- Thank you, Pat.

- The confirmation hearings is a very unique process in the Democratic system.

How does the confirmation hearing, how is it different with dealing with Supreme Court Justices versus cabinet members?

Is it any different?

- It typically is, it's more exhaustive in terms of the background.

I believe that the nominees, the Supreme Court nominees, try to meet with every member of the committee.

At least they extend the invitation.

Sometimes the minority may not accept it.

There's so much to the background checks and then the hearings are always scheduled.

We just had a hearing for Pete Hegseth in Senate Armed Services.

It was one hearing with seven minute rounds.

I'm literally today having a hearing with Pam Bondi for the Attorney General.

And it is guaranteed two days of hearings minimally, and sometimes it can even be longer.

And I do find in the Judiciary Committee, they tend to be the lengthier nomination hearings.

You know, I've done four Supreme Court justices, several attorney generals.

So it's something that I've learned a lot from over the last 10 years.

- So how much difference does the hearing itself make in the actual decision making by the senators?

- It makes a big difference.

I'll give you an example for Pete Hegseth, his hearing yesterday.

He came in prepared.

The Democrats didn't.

But I do believe that there were some Republican members that still had not decided whether or not they would support his confirmation on the floor.

I believe he had a strong performance yesterday, and that likely put him over the top.

In terms of Republican support on the floor.

I don't think any Democrats will vote for him.

- So especially for the more controversial ones, the public hearings can make or break you?

- Absolutely.

In fact, they have.

we always talk about oftentimes even before the hearings, the due diligence has caused nominees from both administrations, or all three that I've been in, to be withdrawn before they're actually heard.

So there's a lot of work done before the hearing.

A lot of meetings, a lot of due diligence, and sometimes that results in either the administration or the nominees decision to withdraw.

- So how does that word get to the president to withdraw or to the candidate themselves?

We saw that with the first attorney general pick by President Trump.

Is it a phone call?

Is it a meeting?

Is it signals smoke signals to the president?

You need to get this candidate to get out.

- I think it's all of the above.

You know, if you have a skill in counting votes and really judging the mood of the people, your colleagues in the Senate, you not only need to speak up about your own concerns, but what you may be observing from other members.

And I think that that's a very important feedback loop.

You know, we talk about advice and consent and you know, it's when in the minority then our party typically says, you gotta be tough on all the nominees and possibly reject most of 'em.

When we're the majority, we say we need to confirm every nominee.

I think we need to be consistent.

We owe it to the president to complete the due diligence to make sure that this is the best possible nominee for the role.

That is what advice and consent is all about.

And I take it very seriously.

And I have to give the Trump administration a lot of credit.

I've provided feedback and it's all been taken.

It was offered in good faith, and it's all been taken very positively.

I don't think that President Trump wants a rubber stamp.

He wants to make sure the people he's putting on the field have the best qualifications and unimpeachable integrity.

And that's our job to make sure that that happens with every nominee.

- So, how scripted are the public hearings?

Do the Republics and Democrats get in a room by themselves and go, okay, you're gonna ask this question, you're gonna ask this question, explain what's happening before the hearing that the public doesn't see?

- Well, I'm smiling a bit because, you know, I have been through four Supreme Court nominees, attorney Generals and FBI directors.

The Democrats in the Judiciary Committee, every committee is different.

And a lot of it has to do with their chair and their leadership, and the committee staff.

The Democrats at judiciary are like a symphony orchestra.

They come in, you can see that they're handing off the narratives that they want to create.

They're trying to create a false narrative for Pam Bondi.

You gotta give 'em credit for at least having practice trying to enforce that false narrative.

And it's our job to kind of break through it.

I just did that literally 15 minutes ago.

I was speaking in judiciary asking Pam Bondi questions, dispelling some of what the Democrat Marketing Department wants to put out there, which are patently unfounded allegations.

But they do a really good job of coordinating it.

And, you know, if you repeat something enough times and it remains unchallenged, it can stick and it can drive the media cycle and media narrative.

And I reject those sorts of things.

And on the Republican side, it is very difficult to get independent minded conservatives to coordinate.

So I think maybe in the 10 years I've been a judiciary, I've seen one hearing, it was a Kavanaugh hearing where we sat down and we said we needed to think strategically and execute as a group.

But basically we're a jazz band doing whatever riff we wanna do.

Very little coordination.

I think there's pros and cons to that incidentally.

- So what about the coordination with a candidate?

I noticed with the, one of the hearings, Norm Coleman, former Senator, former Mayor that I knew real well from St. Paul, Minnesota, he introduced him.

Who, do they go through a lot of practicing with these nominees in preparation for the questions?

- Well, they do.

In fact, I met with nominee twice off committee to tell them what I would throw at them if I were a Democrat.

I said, you need to be ready.

You need to have reasonable answers.

They also have a process that they call murder boards where they'll ask Senate members and other people to play the role of certain Democrat members to get 'em ready for the tough questions and the tactics that they use to try and throw you off your game.

So there's a lot of practice, a lot of preparation involved.

And you gotta be ready.

You know, you saw yesterday in the Hegseth hearing, the sort of geography test people wanted to run through.

There was one member that asked him a question that was at such a detailed level.

I laughed when I heard the question asked because I know most of the members on that committee could not have answered the question.

But you just gotta be ready for it.

And then, and the best thing to do is if you don't know the answer, say you don't know.

- There's a filibuster.

- And if you'll follow up.

- I've noticed at both the state level and the federal level, especially if there's a timeline, but there's a thing called a filibuster that's maybe done by the candidate or the nominee themselves.

And there's a constant fight between the person asking the question and the person either avoiding the question or going around it.

Tell us the techniques there and how you get around it as one of the interviewers.

- Well, what I do, and you know, most of the time that happens when you've got a hostile nominee.

So it's usually when we're in the minority, you know, when I've encountered it, and I try to start by saying, I wanna apologize in advance.

When I say the word stop, that means I'm moving on to another question and I don't expect you to take my time away.

That actually has a disarming effect.

And very few people filibuster me, and that's the best way to deal with it.

But they are trained.

I mean, to their credit, a part of the, a part of the training is, hey, if they'll let you keep on burning their time, keep on talking.

That's just a natural part of the process.

You just gotta be smart enough to anticipate it.

- So in the remaining 30 seconds time, what's the end result after the, and when is this gonna finish and what's the end result, do you think, regarding this administration?

- I think that the vast majority, if not all of the folks who come before committee will be confirmed by the full Senate.

I am hopeful that there will be some bipartisan votes.

I believe Marco Rubio will get strong Democrat support and all Republicans.

I believe that we could probably expect the same for a number of nominees.

There are gonna be some controversial ones that'll be shirts and skins.

But I think at the end of the day we'll conclude the process with cabinet and major sub cabinet roles, probably by the end of April.

- Senator Tillis, thanks again for being "Un-spun".

You gave us some good behind the scenes information.

- Good to see you, Pat.

- Next up, "PBS" Charlottes Jeff Sonier takes "Un-spun" on the street asking voters who they support or don't support in President Trump's new cabinet.

- Yeah, it turns out that some of Donald Trump's best known picks for top positions at the White House are also some of the most polarizing picks, starting with his billionaire buddy who builds and sells all these Teslas.

- Take it over, Elon.

- What do you think about the idea of naming non politicians, people like Elon Musk, to government positions in the new White House?

- I think that's a big no.

'Cause their experience in another expertise other than politics.

So putting them in something that they have too much power, I feel like they'll kind of abuse it in a way.

- Don't like Elon Musk because he's not even elected an executive official to this cabinet, but he seems to think he's running the show also.

- I think it's genius.

- Why's that?

- Because he's so smart in business and he applies it to what we need the government to do.

And he's, I think he's bringing a fresh perspective to the whole thing.

- There's too many career politicians out there right now anyway.

- [Jeff] You'd rather see a non-career politician in some of those positions?

- Yes, sir.

- All in all, it took President Trump just 18 days to name all of his cabinet secretaries.

A pace unprecedented in recent history.

- Definitely good people that have the right intentions in mind.

And he knows who he needs for this administration to succeed the next four years.

- I don't think a lot of people in his cabinet are qualified, or at least the ones he's nominated for his cabinet.

I think that's one of the more scary things.

- And whether these cabinet picks succeed or fail, maybe we should call them the I told you so cabinet, because that's what both sides wanna tell the other side.

You know, I told you so, Pat.

- Thanks Jeff.

So what do you think about this issue?

Email us your thoughts on Trump's cabinet choices to unspun@wtvi.org.

Or even better, send us a video and we might use it on the air.

(upbeat music) Tonight on our "Un-spun" countdown, the top five characteristics presidents look for in a cabinet member beyond the resume that they don't tell the public about.

Let's start with number five.

Number five, most presidents actually do not want a cabinet member that's always seeking the spotlight.

The president wants the spotlight.

They don't want the cabinet members to seek the spotlight.

Number four, they have to have a cabinet member that's willing to work 80 hours a week.

If they have other issues on the side, personal issues, family issues, the fact of the matter is they won't get selected.

Because being a cabinet member, it is total commitment.

You might as well say goodbye to your family and your personal life.

Number three, this is not talked about, but you gotta be able to afford the job.

The cabinet member pays maybe between 170 and $200,000 a year.

But the individual, unlike Congressman, can't afford to fly back and forth back to their home.

You gotta be able to afford the cabinet job and not have any financial problems.

That can really hang over the head of a cabinet official.

Thus, they can't do a good job.

Number two, huh?

You gotta be able to keep a secret.

A president wants to make sure that any personal conversations or private conversation they have with a cabinet member, they won't read it in the newspaper the next day or in a book four years from now.

And number one, the most important that they don't want to talk about regarding the skill of a cabinet member, that they're about to select, will that cabinet member take the fall for the president if something goes wrong.

(upbeat music) "PBS" Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Un-spun" one-on-one.

- Call it one-on-one because I asked the questions and you answer 'em.

And I wanna follow up on one of the questions I asked you last week, because of the weather, there was no inauguration on the steps of the Capitol in Raleigh.

So you didn't get a chance to meet again with the fellow former governors and the new current governor.

Talk a little bit about opportunity loss there.

- I was really looking forward, especially seeing Governor Hunt.

You know, he and Martin are both now over 90 years of age and they're just institutions.

So to be able to get with them and then Governor Easley and Purdue and Cooper to join Governor Stein, I thought would've been a historic event.

'cause we haven't been together since my first inauguration in 2012, because Governor Cooper's was postponed due to a winter storm.

And then it was postponed four years later because of Covid, - And now postponed again because of another winter storm.

- Another winter storm.

But it would've been interesting because the dynamics among both the Republicans and Democrats, we've all fought each other.

So would the dynamics been the same as Jimmy Carter's funeral, President Carter's funeral, where, you know, there's still some hard feelings.

I don't think it would've been, but it would've been interesting had cameras been up close.

- Right.

- And we'd given a little snark comment or a eye roll.

I kind of felt sorry for these former presidents and vice presidents at the funeral, probably not realizing cameras were analyzing their every eye movement.

- You think you get a chance to meet with the governors, even though it didn't happen at the inauguration.

- I've given a strong recommendation to Governor Stein staff to get us together as soon as possible.

- Great, that's great.

Hey, let me ask you about the difference between Washington and Raleigh.

Washington, the president picks his cabinet subject to approval by the Senate.

In Raleigh, when you were governor, you had a, I've got the list here.

You had a Democratic attorney general, Secretary of State, secretary of Education, secretary of Labor, a state treasurer, and a state auditor all from the other party.

- Yeah.

- How does that complicate or make governing more difficult when your cabinet, quote unquote is not necessarily made up of your allies and in some cases your political enemies?

- It can make it very difficult for the governor because I did have, for example, Roy Cooper, my opponent was the Attorney General.

And we'd have council of state meetings once a month, which the governor controls.

And there are certain things, according to our Constitution, that have to be approved by all those parties.

And so you have to use the power of persuasion.

But sometimes the Democrats would get together before the meeting and go, we're voting against it, regardless of what the governor might say.

So the governor in North Carolina has a much weaker position than the President of the United States.

- As a cabinet, are you in that room?

I know a lot of the meetings are open to a point, but there's also some closed door meetings.

Are you relying on their good advice or in the case of maybe in Washington, is it the President forcing his opinions on the cabinet members to execute those opinions?

- Well, in North Carolina, there's a cabinet that the governor does have.

- Right.

- For example, I had the DOT secretary, I have the head of DHHS.

I think I had 11 direct reports.

- [Jeff] Right.

- Of what I call Governor's cabinets.

So still control 60, 70,000 employees.

Then you have the Council of State, which I don't have control over.

I met with my cabinet every Tuesday morning at eight o'clock.

Where you see right now, governor, I mean, President Biden in the past got a lot of criticism, right?

'Cause he had only meet with the cabinet maybe three times a year.

We actually would have a working meeting where we'd have 12 to 13 people, including my chief of staff, for hour to two hours, go and let everyone hear what we're working on.

Because often I'd find out in the cabinet meetings that there was overlap, especially in IT systems or communications or meeting with the media, things of this nature, that if we wouldn't communicate with each other, we'd be surprised or stunned what we'd read in the newspaper.

- So there's no firm rules.

It's more of a style of leadership.

Governor by governor, president by president.

But I was more of an operational type of a governor because what most people don't realize, the main job of a governor and a president are operations, day-to-day operations.

It's the job of Congress to make the laws.

It's the job of the president to enforce the laws.

And the same with the governor.

- I know you touched on it with your interview with Senator Tillis a few minutes ago.

You were in the conversation at one point for a possible top job in Washington after you were governor.

Can you tell us about the vetting process, about what kinds of questions they ask you, what kinds of things they dig into when you're a potential appointee for a top government position?

- I don't think I ever made it to the vetting because when they were selecting most of Trump's cabinet in the first administration, I was still going through a recount.

- Oh.

- On my close election.

And in fact, I went up to go visit President Trump in the tower in New York, you know, went up the golden elevator and I went into President Trump's office and he and Steve Bannon and Ryans Privus and a few other were behind the desk, and President Trump was behind the desk.

In retrospect, I think it was more of a courtesy interview.

But on the way down after the meeting, I decided to take the the residential elevator of Trump's apartment instead of going down to have all the cameras face me.

And I ended up on the streets of New York all by myself.

And my security wasn't around or anything.

I went, my gosh, I was just with the president-elect and now I'm on the streets of New York all by myself.

- The political elevator right down to the ground floor, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

There's a fine line between in the arena and out the arena.

And immediately I was outside the arena.

That's how quick it happens.

- Yeah, you know, the last time a cabinet nominee of any president was rejected by the Senate was 36 years ago.

So why all the drama with these hearings when most appointments are approved anyway?

- Actually, you know, I think a lot of the nominees may have been officially rejected right before the vote.

But you had of a lot of nominees of the last three or four presidents bail out.

- 17 cabinet nominees bailed out before the vote that in that same 36 year time period.

- So Tom Tillis says the hearings are important for those under controversy, but if they're under so much controversy, they won't even go through the hearings.

And that's what the lesson learned in this process.

The process works because it ends before the hearing even starts.

And we've seen that with Supreme Court justices too.

I went, for my cabinet members, I went through a very serious vetting process.

And some of them failed the vetting.

It might have been personnel issues, it might be ethics issues, it might be business and financial issues, even some of the things that I mentioned in my top five.

- Is it tough for a chief executive to admit that his first choice wasn't necessarily the best choice?

- Yeah, it's very tough.

It's very similar to a football coach selecting the wrong draft member.

But as I said last week, if you made the wrong decision correct it as soon as possible, very similar to a manager in any business.

If you've got the wrong people, you've gotta replace 'em quickly.

- So you've got hearings and you've got the public watching the hearings and developing their opinions.

- Right.

- Is anyone watching the public polling them, finding out what they think?

- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

There are consultants.

I was hoping to get in that with Thom, but we ran outta time.

There are consultants and there are polling even before they get to the hearing.

And so they know what they're going against.

And you've got President Trump is a hands-on president.

- [Jeff] Yeah.

- He's watching these hearings on TV and I don't think that was the case all the time with previous Trump presidents.

And sometimes they might put the nail in their own coffin with the president who might withdraw it because the president doesn't think they did a good job.

- Yeah.

- Even if the senators did.

- So it's a fine line between having loyalty from your cabinet and getting honesty from your cabinet.

Talk about the value of both of those.

- I think the word in between loyalty and honesty is trust.

- Hmm.

- You've got to have trust with your cabinet members and that's where you can talk to 'em in confidential ways.

And it won't be read in the newspaper the next day or leaked by their media.

There's not backstabbing.

There's some turf always with any governor, or mayor or president.

But trust is the biggest word that you have to have.

Trust that you're gonna do the right thing.

- Interesting to hear about what the view was from inside the hearing room with Senator Tillis.

Also interesting to hear what it's like inside the cabinet room once that cabinet was chosen.

- Yeah, that's when we hung up with Senator Tillis, we saw the FBI nominee coming into the office for an interview.

- Yeah.

- So, you're in the middle of one public hearing and behind you're still working with the one that's coming up, which is gonna be quite controversial.

- All the nominees trying to stay off that political elevator, right?

- No doubt about it.

- Thanks again, Governor.

- I didn't learn my lesson.

- Thanks, Governor.

(dramatic music) - From city hall to the state capitol to the White House, the team you start with isn't always the team you finish with.

The job is tough.

Not everybody is ready for it.

There's turnover.

Top people come and go.

And the ones who stay don't always get along.

Some of it's just everyday stuff.

Team members bumping heads over policy disagreements.

But if there's an ethics issue or a crisis in the headlines, like the terrorism in New Orleans or the wildfires in California, well that's when the blame game between team members often goes public and it gets personal.

And here's another thing that gets in the way of teamwork that the public doesn't hear about until after you're outta office probably in a book.

It's those behind the scenes big government turf battles and power struggles between your executive staff and your cabinet.

The cabinet members are running massive operations.

They've been through hearings and have Senate consent, but they don't always have the access to the chief executive that they want.

Meanwhile, the staff is side by side with the president or the governor every day overseeing the schedule and often deciding for you who gets a meeting and who doesn't.

In government access is power, but new ideas are the fuel for success.

That's why top leaders surround themselves with the top talent they can find.

But you have to make sure the top priority is teamwork.

Your goal is to bring in the best and the brightest all working together.

But when someone on your team winds up not being the team player you thought they'd be, well maybe that's when it's time to make a change for the better.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying, right here on "Un-spun".

Goodnight folks.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of "PBS" Charlotte.