Today we are continuing our series on the "Black church in Detroit," which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

It is Black History Month, and we're taking a look back at Black history in the biblical context.

For ages, there have been questions about whether people of African descent were present in biblical history.

My guest today is the President and Founder of the Bible is Black History Institute.

Dr.

Theron Williams has written several books exploring the historical images and evidence that show the significant role of Black people in the scriptures.

He is a Detroit native and pastor of Mt.

Carmel Church in Indiana.

Welcome back to "American Black Journal."

- Thank You Thank you, it's good to see you.

- Yeah, it's good to see you.

And of course, your bounty of work here in front of (crosstalk) - Yes, yes.

- Let's start with that question that I was talking about in the open.

There are people who don't understand, or don't know, or just openly question the idea in that people of African descent are part of the scriptures.

Let's talk about why we know, why you know that's not true.

- Oh, well, people of African descent are the foundation of the biblical story.

And a lot of the information has been suppressed, but it is now coming to light.

Well, it has been come to light, but it's still been ignored.

And that knowledge has been marginalized.

For example, major scholars, such as Cain Hope Felder, who is a Columbia University graduate and scholar, and for years, was a professor at Howard University, wrote that groundbreaking book, "Troubling Biblical Waters," where he explores, from an academic perspective, from a scholarly perspective, Black presence in the Bible.

- Mm-hmm.

- And then you have other scholars like Tudor Parfitt who is a Oxford University scholar and historian.

And he spent a lot of his career studying Black presence in the Bible, particularly the Lemba tribe of South Africa, where DNA evidence and genetic evidence have proven that they have a genetic connection to the biblical Israelites, particularly the priestly tribe of Aaron.

And so, you have these Africans in South Africa.

And then Thomas C. Oden has written extensively, he's another brilliant scholar, has written extensively about the seed bed of Christianity being in Africa.

So, the roots of the religion of Moses and the roots of Christianity are actually African.

And so, there is major African presence- - Yeah, yeah.

- In the Bible.

- Now, talk about why that matters though, and why it matters now.

I think there are also some people who would say, "Well, the scriptures are for everyone, and it is about one belief, one God, one church."

So, what's the reason for us to emphasize that Africans played a role?

- Well, first of all, because it's true.

- Yeah, well, right, mm-hmm.

- It is a historical fact.

- As a journalist, I agree that that's important.

- Right.

And so, we just study the Bible.

And then secondly, the biblical story has been co-opted by White evangelical theology that painted everything in the Bible White to make it consistent with their theological narrative.

And so, when African Americans read the Bible, by and large, it feels like we are interloping on someone else's story.

- Mm-hmm.

- And so, when we reclaim that story by highlighting the reality that this story emerged from a people of African descent, or from a people who look like us, it makes us a part of the story.

So, when we open the Bible and begin to read it, and we imagine these people look like us, people of African descent, it causes that story to resonate more profoundly with the reader.

So, that's why it's important, it's a psychological connection that you have.

And also there is evidence the research is saying that these images of White Jesus, how destructive and marginalizing they are, that long-term exposure to White Jesus, it has been documented.

In fact, on my podcast, I do an interview with a lady who did the research on this, that long-term exposure to White Jesus causes Black and White people to have a less favorable view of African American people.

- Sure, yeah.

- Just because of that- - There are lots of things in our culture, in fact, have that.

- Oh yeah, yes.

- Yeah.

How do you reconcile this with the history in this country of Christianity being imposed on African people?

I mean, we were brought here, not as citizens, as property and chattel, and it was White slave owners who forced Christianity on us.

And how do we square that with this rich history of us being the basis for their belief?

- Yeah.

(Stephen chuckles) Well, see, and it wasn't the indigenous, the original Christianity expression, like Thomas Oden said, the seed bed was in Africa, it was a bastardized version of Christianity that was twisted to support the White supremacy system.

- [Stephen] Mm-hmm.

- And it was that brand of Christianity that was imposed on the West African, the one that were brought here as chattel.

And the reason it was imposed on them, was they used it as a tool, as a weapon, to get them to accept their subordinate role in human hierarchy, you know?

But our forebearers finally learned how to read because reading was criminalized.

When they learned how to read the Bible, they read it.

And the biblical story did not fit the narrative that they hadn't been taught, you know?

So, they see how God is on the side of the enslaved Hebrews and against the enslaved Egyptians, and then they read about Jesus who is beaten and whipped.

They are beaten and whipped.

How Jesus was alleged on a tree at Calvary and how many of them were.

And so, they said, this story is our- - Our story, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

And so, from that, emerged a brand of Christianity that's unique to people of West-African descent that we practice here now.

in the United States.

- Yeah, I wanna talk some about your work, but I wanna talk especially about the work that you're doing that involves literature for young people- - Yes.

- A children's books.

- Yes.

- And why that's so important.

- Yeah, that's important.

Thank you for bringing that up, Stephen.

We have the Bible is a Black History online academy.

And that academy is designed to spread this information and to help people to understand.

It was put together by myself, along with other scholars.

And in that curriculum, we have a full children's curriculum that we have animations, we have books, we have activities to engage and to involve children in the story.

Because I know, you know, I grew up in the church.

And I fantasized about, how might I would have developed differently if I were exposed to this type- - As a young boy.

- Yes, as a young person, you know?

And so, it has impact on people when they study themselves.

And the literature is also out that the study of Black history, African-Americans who study Black history have a higher self-esteem and a higher appreciation for themselves and self love than African-Americans who don't study Black history.

So, Black history is important beyond February.

We need to be doing it 365 days because it impacts us on a totally different level.

- Yeah, yeah.

If you don't know where you've been, it's hard to know where you're going.

- Yeah, and it's hard to know where you are.

- Where you are.

- Yeah.

- Right, right.

This is a great subject for Black History Month.

Talk about how this lives in your church.

I mean, you're a pastor as well, how does this sort of, you know, exist in the fabric of your ministry?

- Well, Stephen, it's a struggle, it's a continual struggle because why the evangelical theology has been so embedded and deeply rooted in the American experience, and how we understand Christianity, how we understand the role of Christ, and how we understand the function of the Bible.

So, it's deeply rooted in us.

But we have been slowly transforming our congregation to reimagine what Christianity is, to reimagine what Christ's role was, and to reimagine the function of the Bible.

And that takes a while, but it does work.

And it has been transforming, you know, our congregation in a extremely meaningful way.

- Can you gimme an example of how you see that, like, that transformation?

How does that manifest itself?

- Well, the fact that now that when we read the Bible, just the images itself, those images are different.

They reflect our story, they reflect our imagination.

So, it causes a deeper connection with the Bible.

It causes a deeper connection with the biblical story when you can resonate with that story because you are a part of the story.

Now, you know, people in my church, you know, pick up the Bible and say, "This is my story."

- [Stephen] This is me," yeah.

It's an interesting way to think about it.

I mean, if you are learning about the Bible and you think of Moses as a Black man, or Noah as a Black man, or Esther as a Black woman, that changes the way that- - Oh, that changes, yeah.

- It is a different story.

- Yeah.

(Stephen chuckling) - No, I mean, if I handed you a book, Stephen, and had these same information in it, but the depictions that were embedded in that book were of you, your family, your children, and all of that, book that has your images in it is going to be more appealing to you because it's speaking to you as a opposed to a book that has somebody else's interlope.

You'll feel like you are the interlope in that story.

Yeah.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Dr.

Williams, it's always great to talk with you.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you for having me.