- Got a great show ahead for you on "American Black Journal."

Our Black Church in Detroit series honors trailblazing women in the ministry.

We're gonna talk with Reverend Cindy Rudolph about making history at Oak Grove AME Church, and we'll remember the achievements of the late minister and media icon Martha Jean The Queen Steinberg.

You don't want to miss today's show, so stay where you are.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

- [Announcer] From Delta faucets to BEHR paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Announcer] The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of "American Black Journal" in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and "American Black Journal" partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

Today we are gonna continue our series on the Black church in Detroit, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

In honor of Women's History Month, we're shining the light on two trailblazing Detroit women in the Black church.

Reverend Cindy Rudolph is the first woman to lead Oak Grove AME Church.

- Hallelujah!

- And the late Martha Jean The Queen Steinberg, was a pioneer in gospel radio and in the ministry.

Here's my conversation with Reverend Rudolph and Martha Jean Steinberg's longtime colleague and friend Jay Butler of WDETFM Radio.

Pastor Rudolph, I'm gonna start with with you.

You are the first woman to lead Oak Grove AME Church.

Tell us how you, tell us how you got to that place and what that milestone has meant.

- So I have been in ministry for 23 years now, and I started pastoring in 2009.

I was an associate for nine years before I started pastoring.

Worked as a youth minister and in many other capacities.

It has been a long journey filled with everything from joy and wonder and excitement to pain and discrimination, and everything else you can think of, but I absolutely love what I do.

I am so grateful for the opportunity to serve.

It is an honor, a blessing, and a privilege to serve the people of Oak Grove and the community that surrounds us.

I have the privilege of being the first female pastor, and the church is celebrating 100-plus years.

We were actually founded in 1921.

- Wow.

- And so to serve as the first female pastor is an honor.

It's also a major milestone because Oak Grove is also what we call a lead church in the AME Church.

We are governed by bishops, and our region is broken up by state.

And so we are in what we call the Michigan Annual Conference, and in the Michigan Conference, Oak Grove is actually the largest AME Church, which is why we call it the lead church.

And so we're seeing more and more in the AME Church that women are being called and appointed to lead churches.

We have now five female bishops that have been elected in the AME Church.

- Wow.

- And so we've made a great deal of progress.

I'm very proud of the work that we have done.

We still have a long way to go, but I'm really, really grateful for the progress that has been made.

And as a female pastor, I am constantly striving to do the very best work that I can do, not only to represent Oak Grove but also to represent the calling which is upon my life because ultimately I know that I stand as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

- Yeah, so talk about the congregation there at Oak Grove and how they've adapted to this milestone.

(chuckles) And this is different for them.

- They have embraced me from day one.

Now some of them have been honest enough to share with me that when they initially heard that they were getting their first female pastor, they were not all that excited.

And I think some of that is just they didn't know what to expect.

They had been taught or had an understanding of female clergy that might have been different.

They have preconceived notions.

But even some of them have become my greatest supporters, and so I thank God that they have really embraced me.

They are such a loving congregation.

I just recently came back from medical leave.

I had to have back surgery.

They poured out a tremendous amount of love and support and prayers and everything else you could think of.

I could not ask for better people to serve, the staff the congregation, the leadership.

They're wonderful people, and they have really supported and embraced me.

Now, let me say this: that has not always been the case.

And some of that I think comes with age and maturity as well.

My first church, I struggled quite a bit, and I had some members who were staunch anti-female pastor and just did not support, and that happens.

Sometimes you learn how to navigate that, and sometimes you just have to deal with it and pray through it, and ask the Lord to guide you.

And what I'm grateful for is that I cannot even tell you the number of times that I've gone to guest preach at a church or I've talked with folks who have said to me, "I did not believe in female pastors, but after hearing you preach," or after talking with you or whatever, "now I've changed my mind."

That for me is a major accomplishment simply because it shows that they were at least open enough to receive and to hear and to see what God is doing.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

So Jay Butler, this is a great spot to bring you into the conversation because what Pastor Rudolph is talking about is what's possible now in her church, and one of the reasons that it is possible is what your friend Martha Jean The Queen did so long ago, the doors that she kicked down for so many people.

Of course, you knew her best through radio, but you were witness to the things that she did in the Black church.

Talk about your relationship with Martha Jean and the glass ceilings that she smashed.

- Well, having known her prior to coming to Detroit, she was not in the church then.

But coming to Detroit and being a radio personality, there was a transition from being a radio disc jockey to becoming a minister.

Interesting enough, we were at the same station at the time, at WJLB, when the transition, if you will, took place.

And she was radio disc jockey, popular personality and all of that, and one day, strangely enough, I was in the studio with her, talking with her.

All of a sudden the lights went out in the studio.

This is a true story.

Lights went out in the studio.

We were talking and this happened.

And after that, prior to that, she was, of course, playing just straight rhythm and blues music, and at 12 noon she did the salute to the workers of Detroit and that kind of thing, the planets and everything.

And from that day, all on, well, that transition took place.

She started from there.

She started her church, and called the Home of Love, which is, of course, still in existence and members and a thriving church.

It has been now, I think, what?

About, whoa, well, I won't talk about how many years.

(Stephen laughing) - A lot.

(chuckling) - A lot of years.

- Right.

(chuckling) - But the transition took place.

It's been a thriving church with a great number of ministers who are members who are dedicated to that church too.

The Order of The Fishermen Ministry is what it's called.

- Okay.

So any Detroiter of a certain age knows Martha Jean and knows of her radio career, but tell us a little about how that related to her religious career, which I don't think as many people know as much about.

What was it that made her, in the- - That brought into the religious?

- Yeah.

- Here's what I can tell you.

On a Thursday afternoon, on the air, sitting, and I was sitting in a studio with her.

The lights went out in the studio.

To make it short, lights went out in the studio, and from that time on, her whole demeanor changed.

And that was the start of, she changed her show from playing rhythm and blues music to nothing but gospel music.

- It was the gospel, right.

Yeah.

- And from there, she started the church.

Well, it was a whole slew of thing she started at that time, but from then on, it was strictly gospel music for her show.

Management did not say anything about it.

I mean, they- (Stephen chuckling) (chuckles) They didn't bark against it or anything, 'cause she totally changed her show.

- So I wonder if you can talk a little about whether there was any hesitation on her part because she was a woman and because of the time.

To start a church, that's not what women were doing or, in some cases, were even allowed to be doing in some churches.

Did she ever kind of doubt whether she could do it?

- Not one second, I will tell you that.

And, of course, being a woman and starting a church, there were always those naysayers, and said, "Women in church, that just is not..." Did not bother her at all.

I mean, it was straight ahead, and, I mean, she went into it and changed a lot of things.

- Yeah.

- Without any hesitation, because, I mean, in the business that we're in and what we were doing, I mean, you just don't (chuckles) stop.

- (chuckling) Right.

- As far as the station was concerned, you got advertisers who are buying that show for that.

She totally changed it.

It was gonna be gospel, and she was gonna do it.

And did not say a word.

- And there was nothing nothing to stop her.

(chuckling) - Can't stop her.

- As a matter of fact, the revenue for her show increased.

- For real.

- (chuckling) That's amazing.

- It sure did.

(Jay speaking indistinctly) - So, yeah, go ahead.

- So it was a major kind of thing happening, but Martha Jean was that straightforward person, and whatever was, that's what it was going to be.

She said what God told her to do, she was doing, and it didn't make any difference what anybody said.

And, of course, management is looking at, "Hey, we are selling time on this R&B show that you're doing, and you are talking about changing it to all gospel."

- (chuckling) Right.

- "And talking about Jesus and all of that."

But most of it being Martha Jean.

- Yeah.

- Hey.

- And, of course, from there she goes on to buy WQBH, and she hires you there, right?

- Yes, she did.

How did she do that?

Good question.

(Stephen chuckling) But she did.

Martha Jean's thing was, and she would very well tell you, whatever God tells her to do, whatever it is for her to do, she is going to do.

- She was gonna do it.

- Didn't make any difference about what the folks say about, "Well, we got a rhythm and blues show going here, and you're talking about changing it to all gospel, and you changing your demeanor."

Hey, Martha Jean said what God told her to do, she did.

- She's gonna do it, yeah.

- Without any hesitation.

- So Reverend Rudolph, I wanna bring you back in the conversation here and have you just sort of talk about women like Martha Jean who would've inspired you when you were young to decide to get into the ministry and decide that you could be a pastor, that you could lead a church.

All of this kind of unfolds right before you're making these of decisions.

- Mm-hmm, and I love hearing the story of Martha Jean because it sounded to me like the lights going out in the studio were a sign from God.

- (chuckling) Right.

- And at that point she said, "Okay, Lord, I hear you."

- I know what I'm supposed to do.

- And what I've learned is that God honors our willingness to do what it is that he's calling us to do.

And so when he called me, initially, it was a calling to preach, and one of the things that I heard clearly when God called me to preach was, "Don't ever doubt it."

And I think that that is so necessary for me, and for any woman really, to never doubt your calling because there will be others who will doubt your calling, but we as women need to know for sure what God told us to do, and we need to walk in that.

I have been inspired over the years by both male and female mentors.

One of them, of course, is Reverend Dr. Ann Lightner-Fuller.

I had the privilege of serving under her in Towson, Maryland before she retired.

One of our lead pastors in the AME Church for many years.

Of course, pioneers and trailblazers like Jarena Lee, Reverend Jarena Lee I should call her because we posthumously ordained her at the General Conference in 2016.

She was initially licensed to preach way back in 1819.

(Stephen chuckling) And she was the first female ever licensed to preach.

Initially, she encountered resistance, but Bishop Richard Allen could not deny the calling that was on her life, and so he affirmed her publicly in that way, and we thank God for her.

Of course, people like Bishop Vashti Murphy McKenzie was the first female bishop in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

And I could name so many others who have influenced and inspired me and showed me that I could do this work.

And I think it's important to also acknowledge that I've been affirmed by male mentors who gave me opportunities, like my father in ministry, Reverend William D. Watley, and was always willing to acknowledge the gifts and the calling upon my life in ways that were not only affirming to me privately but affirming publicly so that others could also see and support.

- Yeah, Reverend Rudolph, you mentioned that there are still challenges.

You mentioned earlier that you still face some things that you might see as obstacles.

You wanna talk a little about what those are and how you smash through those?

- (chuckling) Smash through, I like that choice of language.

(Stephen laughing) Well, the challenges are there are some people who still don't believe, obviously.

There are some people who will not acknowledge female clergy.

I've had people say to my face, "I don't believe in female preachers."

I had one person, and this was actually a pastor, who said to me, "Well, I can see biblical evidence for female preachers, but not for female pastors, so I'm not really there yet with you."

And so when people say things like that, I have to remind them, what is preaching?

Preaching is the telling of the good news, and the first person who was ever commissioned to tell the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ was a woman named Mary.

- It was a woman.

- Who was commissioned by the Lord Jesus himself.

So, for me, I just think it's very presumptuous of anyone to doubt what God has spoken to another individual, particularly when you see that those gifts and that calling are being affirmed.

Particularly when you see that there are female leaders who have thriving ministries.

And so I really think that people should just sort of accept what God is doing.

I think that the world is big enough for both male and female clergy to be affirmed, and it's time for us to all sort of embrace that.

- Yeah.

Jay, I wonder if you can talk a little about the way that Martha Jean and the things that she did changed radio here in Detroit, not just the work she did as a DJ but by owning her own station and doing things her own way.

I imagine that there are things that are still true now that are only true because of her.

- Martha Jean was a very innovative lady in a lot of ways.

She started the... Well, let me put it like this.

She went against the grain for everything almost (chuckles) for women.

I will say that whenever we talked and my being with her for the times that I was, it was always God led, according to her.

What she did was because she believed God asked her to do it.

I remember, just put this in.

Long before we were talking about casino gambling in Detroit, long before, and when I say long before, like a year, or three or four years before we started talking about it, she came in and said, "Jay Butler, why would God have me talk about casino gambling?"

This is before people were talking about it.

"I'm a (indistinct) now.

Why would God have me?"

But she did.

But she was kind of puzzled about, "Why would God have me talking about on the radio casino game?"

(Stephen chuckling) In any case that, I mean things like that.

I mean, she was, she was God led by everything that she did, according to her.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- I say that because prior to that coming, there were a lot of things that Martha, she did, that were not so holy religious, if you will.

(Stephen chuckling) But there came a time, during her time period at JLV, that he took over her life, and from then on, boy, she was straight up with it.

No matter what anybody else said, if she felt that God had her doing it, she did it.

The prayer downtown that they had every year on the current block, according to her, was all God led.

Told her to pray for the city.

- Right.

Right.

- And that's what she did.

- All right, Jay and Reverend Rudolph, it was great to have both of you here.

What a wonderful way to mark Women's History Month, talking about your milestone leadership at Oak Grove, Reverend Rudolph, and the things that Martha Jean The Queen Steinberg did to pave the way for women in our city.

Thank you both for being here.

That's it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests and view all of the Black Church in Detroit episodes at americanblackjournal.org.

And as always, you can connect with us on Facebook anytime as well as on Twitter.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] From Delta faucets to BEHR paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Announcer] The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of "American Black Journal" in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and "American Black Journal" partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(gentle chords resonating)