- We've got a great show coming up for you on "American Black Journal."

Our Black Church in Detroit series is gonna examine the role of ministers and the church's response to death.

We're gonna talk about comforting the grieving, educating loved ones on the process of saying goodbye in the Black church's view of death.

It's an important conversation you absolutely don't wanna miss.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

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Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm Steven Henderson.

Today we are continuing our series on the Black Church in Detroit, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

Today we're taking on a topic that can be really difficult to discuss, but it is a part of life.

I'm talking about the subject of death.

People turn to the Black church for healing, for comfort and final goodbyes when loved ones pass on.

Ministers are called upon to deliver eulogies, comfort the grieving, and educate the bereaved about the funeral process.

I had a conversation about the Black church's response to death with Pastor Semmeal Thomas of City Covenant Church, Reverend Dr. Constance Simon of Fellowship Chapel, and seminary student Ashley Lewis, who is also from Fellowship Chapel.

Reverend Simon, Pastor Thomas, and Ashley Lewis, it's great to have all of you here with us on "American Black Journal."

Thanks for joining.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

- So, we just wanna start with you, Reverend Thomas, Pastor Thomas, you know, you're the one who I think brought this subject up, raised this as something that you wanted to talk about as part of our Black Church in Detroit series.

This idea of how pastors, the ones who lead our church, and the other folks in our church have to deal with death, which is just a part of life, of course, but it becomes a big part of the church as well.

and we don't always think about the burden that it places on those who lead the church, but also I think the opportunity it provides to strengthen the relationships we have between each other and with our churches and, of course, with our religious beliefs, so I just wanna give you a chance to talk about why you thought it was really important to talk about this and why now.

- Well, thank you again for this opportunity.

Probably a couple years ago I started paying attention to, we were losing aunts and losing my parents and that kind of stuff, and I just started looking historically where we're at.

So I'm 64, I'm a 1960s baby, and so I'm the end of the baby boomers and it kind of dawned on me that this generation is going on to be with the Lord.

So then I started trying to set the alarm, or sound the alarm to my congregation that they needed to be more vigilant and more serious about taking care of themselves and taking care of their parents and aunties and all that kind of stuff and then it started happening, and so I am on funeral number five, the last five weeks in a row.

Every Friday or Saturday I've had to either do a funeral, officiate a funeral, or be a part of one.

And three of the five were members of our church, and other two were family members of members of our church.

And so that on top of just regular life.

And so we've never seen anything like this before in the history of the United States because up until the Millennials, the baby boomers were the largest generation ever born.

- Right.

- All right, and so we're all going on to the Lord and people don't really understand it, but it is burdensome to the pastor.

- Yeah.

- It is.

- Talk about what those burdens look like, Semmeal.

What does that look like from your side of the pulpit?

- Well, so I'll go with the two funerals that I did that I didn't even know these people.

But watching their children cry, or watching their mother cry, or watching, you know, it just, it takes from you and you kind of have two choices.

Some people take the homicide detective view where they kind of distance themselves from it so they could maintain their cool and all right, but most pastors, we feel it, when you cry, we cry.

And some of us are professional enough to at least try to hold it together while we're in front of the family or whatever.

I'm not that pastor.

You crying, I'm crying.

(laughing) I'm trying to work on it.

You know, Jesus looked back and he wept and so to speak to the opportunity, we planted in '09, and one of the things we did is we offer our church as a place for people to have their memorials and to have their services for free.

And so one of the things that was obvious is that if a family didn't have a church, then that was an opportunity for us to reach people who were probably either underchurched or unchurched at all and so it gave an opportunity for us to at least show God's compassion.

I don't necessarily turn it into like an evangelistic thing, but I do use it as an opportunity for us to show the office of the pastor and of the church and what the value that we bring.

Lastly, the fact that they turn to us in moments like this speaks volume, especially of the Black church, that they may not come, but they knew mama came and they will call you and say, "Can you do this or can you do that?"

And so it is really a privilege.

At the end of the day, it's a privilege for us to enter in probably one of the most intimate and private moments in a person's life.

- Yeah.

So, Ashley Lewis, you're at the other end generationally of what we were just talking about of being quite a bit younger, but death still touches you and people your age and your generation as well, and touches you through the church.

You've had some recent experiences with this.

- Yes, and so, and thank you, Reverend, for giving some context as well because actually my experience with the Black church has been great.

What I will say is Reverend Dr. Constance Simon, who's on here with us, she was very integral, not only to me accepting the call, and I'm currently a member in discernment the United Church of Christ, but she was really integral into our family because we had a pandemic that really devastated our community and it exacerbated not only death, but all the things that come with death, so whether that's grief, whether that's estates, whether that's really kind of figuring out how do you plan a funeral, working through the logistics of family, and my grandmother, she actually passed away in the home and I laid next to her as she passed, as she transitioned, which was a very peaceful transition.

And then three weeks later, my father passed away in the hospital and he passed away from Covid and it was really devastating for our family, but what came through very loud and clear was pastoral care.

And it's a, I would say one of the highlights of the Black church, but it isn't highlighted enough because had it not been for the pastoral care to actually help nurse, not only me, but also my family, and it was a team, not just one person from Fellowship Chapel that really came in and wrapped their hands around us as a family, because that was a lot of devastation.

And to be honest, when you're grieving, getting through the logistics of planning a funeral, getting through the logistics of what it looks like to navigate family as you're planning a funeral, because we don't talk about that enough, a lot of things just happen.

Even an obituary, just finding someone to do that.

It's all of that that comes with it and a lot of it we don't necessarily know because our first encounter typically with handling these things is with someone we know.

And so the church is just so integral to that and I see this as a space to really call back in this generation who may or may not have grown up in church.

We were blessed to and I'm grateful for that foundation, but even for my siblings, they're coming back to church because of the pastoral care that was exuded at that time for our family.

- Yeah.

Dr. Simon, you're also at Fellowship Chapel, obviously, and part of the community there.

Give us a sense from your vantage point how this plays out for the congregation, for the community there and, and then of course, for you as part of the pastoral team.

- Okay, and as, again, you both have given great context to move into this space.

Yes, baby boomers are watching, are putting people to rest and we are that group that's heading out now.

I've noticed that, and I wear my collar.

I might not wear my collar any other time, but if it's a funeral, because we deal with many people who are in church and out of church, and so I've had to smile and say, "Baby, can you tell that tall boy you can't come in church with that.

I know it's not open.

You can put it outside.

You can get it when you go put it in your car, okay?

Or, "We have a garbage bag out there for you."

And they'll look at the collar and then they'll respond and usually they'll go ahead and do what I ask.

But we're watching elders slip away.

And I believe when we're in the pulpit, sometimes we say that when you see your elders leave, it's like a library leaving, all wisdom and all the guidance.

But I have a team that I work with.

I'm not the only minister.

All of the ministers of fellowship, all four of us do the funerals, do everything.

But we also have a group of women who are bereavement ushers and so it makes a big difference because it's the comfort care.

One thing about being in the Black church, if you are actually in the church, your care for your transition starts before you pass.

It's a relationship.

And that relationship, even though you'll, you know, like grandma tell you, "Pooky and them won't come to church unless it's Mother's Day, Christmas or Easter."

And we've got that.

We'll see Pooky, "Hey," like they come every Sunday.

But when those transitions happen and people look at death with such finality, and I know I quote Mitch Albom's book, and the book said, in the book, it kept reiterating, "The end is not the end."

- Yeah.

- We're peddling hope.

And when we come in even before the funeral, during the funeral, after the funeral, and there's a lot of aftercare that people don't, you know, people think sometimes preachers only show up on Sunday for those two hours and then you're done.

No, we marry you, we bury you, we counsel you, we try to bring the family back together, and the family dynamics can be draining during a funeral because everybody is not on the same page, everybody.

I had a older lady I went to see in hospice and I was very shocked 'cause I thought she was going to be comatose, she wasn't.

Her family was over to the side of the room and they were very, they were huddled together.

I said, I came in and I was like, I don't think I'm dealing with them, I'm not.

She looks up and says, "You came to see about me."

And I said, "Yes, ma'am, I did."

She was 97.

I said, "Yes, ma'am, I did."

She said, "Come closer."

And then she's whispered, "I'm fine, I'm good.

They're not, but they'll be okay, but I'm good.

I'm so glad you came to see about me," and this is so important, and it was kind of like her saying, "I'm handing them off to you."

- To you, right.

- You to make sure they get it together.

That happens sometimes and then sometimes it doesn't.

But just the planning and the money issue is a biggie too.

"Oh, here, that's so nice of you Reverend Simon."

I remember there was someone, we've had funerals, let me say it like this, where the family was very entrenched in another church, but because of the son or the daughter or whoever had not been an active tithing member, the minister wouldn't do the funeral.

And they end up at Fellowship, and it's not necessarily end up 'cause one mother said, "I couldn't have done this without you.

I really appreciate you and I'm going to continue to move in that direction."

Now, I never checked back to see, she might have started coming to church.

- You might have gained a member, right, yeah.

- [Rev Simon] Yeah, no, but we do, we do, we do.

- So, I wanna talk about, for the rest of the time, about the unexpected death that we deal with in our community, the sudden death that we deal with as a result of the violence that just absolutely lives with us in the city.

And of course, we had a recent example of just how senseless it all is at a tailgate party for the Detroit Lions.

Two people lost their lives.

I mean, I just can't imagine what those families are going through, but those families very well could be members of religious communities, and in your religious communities, I know, this kind of death is more frequent, more common than in some others, so I'm gonna start with you this time, Ashley Lewis.

Talk about how, from the pastoral side, you manage when death comes suddenly and senselessly into the church.

- What I would say is, as a minister in training, so I'll give that caveat.

- Sure, yeah.

- And give that context, but what I will say is, my experience and what I've been trained in fellowship is A, to bring in the community.

And what I mean by that is like not create a space where they can't create what they want to do for their loved one, if that makes any sense.

I think sometimes you go into certain spaces and then they may restrict some things and what I mean by that is not necessarily in service or in some of those things, but more in like the application of it.

Sometimes they may not want to have like a full-length service.

They may wanna deviate.

I think in this space, especially when it's unexpected, it's important to give them everything that they need.

I know in our generation we do a lot of the balloon releases and then like being there for all of the events.

And for me, just in training, and I really kind of listen to and take guidance from Reverend Dr. Constance Simon, but one of the things that I always appreciate that she does is she goes to the events leading up to the funeral because it's so important to get the context and the synergy and the energy of the person and the impact that they had.

And the senseless killing that did happen at the Easter Market was actually one of the members, and during the day I work for the UAW and it's really devastating to see life, especially a life of a member who was very joyful, very kind, to be taken away, and so how do you honor who they are and who they will continue to be?

Because, of course, in the Black church, we're not just centered on, you know, the life just in this moment, but now him transitioning into being an ancestor and how do you still live out what it is that he would've liked within his family, within his wishes, within the whole process of going through the transition, as you will with the family, but also for him as well.

- Yeah.

My condolences to the UAW community as well.

I mean, that's another community that's affected by all of this.

Pastor Thomas, talk about how that looks in your religious community - Stephen, it's really, it's really tight.

It's very difficult.

There's a marked difference between the funeral of a believer and one who is not.

And the hopelessness.

We talk about 1 Thessalonians that we don't grieve like those who don't have hope.

And, you know, our hope really is in the person of Jesus Christ resurrection that he rose, and because he rose, we'll rise.

And so when you don't have that, you know, people are trying to self-medicate and, you know, Hennessy, or whatever, and so I appreciate what my sister just said about trying to find a balance where you have to understand that, understand how they're grieving, and again, the legacy that may have been.

Man, I had a service that I went to that I didn't have to officiate or anything, I just went and support this mother.

And the young man had robbed a dope man and everybody on the streets knew he was gonna get killed.

It was all in the hood, and sure enough, they caught him and they killed him.

- All right.

- And I never, I've never been to a funeral where I saw so many people crying.

I mean, I'm talking about wailing.

And I just, you know, I just felt so helpless really in that moment and I was very glad that it wasn't a funeral that I had to do, that I was just going there for support.

It was very- - I mean, that's powerful, but that with all of the experience and training and time that you have that you feel helpless sometimes- - Right.

- Because of all these circumstances.

- Pastor Simmons, Larry Simmons, over here in Brightmoor, we talk about this thing that's called ministry of presence.

- Yes.

- Okay, all right, where sometimes you don't have to say the right thing, you don't have to do anything.

Sometimes like that mother looked at doc and said, "You came, you're here."

And sometimes just the presence that shows the compassion and the love and the care that you have, many times that is enough.

- Yeah.

Dr. Simon, we've got just a couple minutes left, but I would definitely wanna hear your take on the senseless loss that comes into our churches.

- Right, and like Ashley said, I will, if I'm doing a funeral, I will go and meet the family.

I will go, and sometimes I'm like, what am I gonna run into?

And I know God goes with me, but you do, you have to meet them.

Sometimes they're there, some of them are hurting, some of them know and have the hope, and then a lot of 'em are just angry.

They're angry with God.

Why did they take this person?

Why did this happen?

And then when you get into the mix of it, because when it's a retaliation, there's an opportunity to have people reframe what they're doing and how they're doing and look at it from a forgiveness standpoint.

What do you need to let go?

What do you need to say to someone who is here right now?

How do you need to proceed?

What are you going to do that's going to change your trajectory since I have just spoken about the hope that Christ gives with eternal life?

I've been to a funeral where there wasn't gun violence, a child got killed by accident, but he was young, had his first job, and at the end of the sermon, the pastor and everybody, kids were crying.

And he said, "You know what?

I need to give you all the opportunity to get your life straight."

And I bet 100 kids got up and went forward and gave their life to Christ.

And he made it very clear, he said, "This will be your game changer.

This is a game changer."

When you close the casket, that to me, that's the hardest thing ever.

And depending on who it is and how emotional, I will come out of the pulpit and I'll close the casket to assist, and sometimes if I know it's a son or a daughter, I'll say, "Would you like to help me close?

Would you like to help me close?"

And that gives them some comfort.

And Reverend Thomas, I've said, I've cried, I've cried.

Praise God, if I'm in the pulpit, it's not until after.

As soon as I sit down and I'm done, and reverend's getting ready to get up and do the eulogy, yes, I'm like tissue season.

I'm like, "Can they see me?"

I don't really care, I don't care because I tell them, I said, "That's your love, that's your love coming through."

I said, "But we all come in knowing that we are going out."

- Right.

- But what?

We don't know the how this is gonna happen, and nor do we know the when, but you do have a choice to the where, to the where of this conclusion, so you give people something to think about afterwards.

And funeral homes are very, oh my goodness, they're so helpful, they are, the the ones that I deal with, the ones that come in, and they're usually watching the group all.

- Okay, Reverend Simon, Pastor Semmeal Thomas, and Ashley Lewis, it is always great to have all three of your minds with us for these discussions here during our- - It's great to have a Stephen Henderson.

Yes, it's great to have a Stephen Henderson.

- Absolutely, yeah.

Yes.

- Thanks to all three of you though for being with us for this very difficult conversation.

- Yeah.

- Praise God.

- That'll do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at AmericanBlackJournal.org, and you can connect with us at any time, of course, on social media.

Take care and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

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Among the state's largest foundations committed to Michigan-focused giving, we support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

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