♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR" 89.7.

TONIGHT: THE BLACK CHURCH.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF, AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

WE'RE HONORING FEBRUARY'S BLACK HISTORY MONTH WITH A LOOK AT THE IR BLACK CHURCH, ARGUABLY ONE OF THE PILLARS OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN LIFE.

THE AFRICANS WHO ARRIVED ON THESE SHORES SHAPED A FAITH BASED ON CHRISTIANITY, OFTEN USED TO JUSTIFY THEIR ENSLAVEMENT.

YET, THE CHURCH GREW TO BECOME CENTRAL TO BOTH THE FAITH JOURNEY AND FREEDOM STRUGGLE OF BLACK AMERICANS.

EVOLVING TO BECOME POLITICALLY POWERFUL AND CULTURALLY SIGNIFICANT BUT, TODAY, IS THE BLACK CHURCH OPEN TO BOLD IDEAS?

ATTRACTING YOUNGER MEMBERS?

STILL RELEVANT?

REVEREND MARIAMA WHITE-HAMMOND, FOUNDING PASTOR OF NEW ROOTS A.M.E. CHURCH IN DORCHESTER, REVEREND WHITE-HAMMOND IS ALSO AN ACTIVIST AND ADVOCATE FOR ECOLOGICAL AND SOCIAL JUSTICE, YOUTH ENGAGEMENT, AND SPIRIT-FILLED ORGANIZING; REVEREND JAMES ROSS, AREA CONFERENCE MINISTER OF THE SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND CONFERENCE OF UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST, NORTHEAST REGION; DR. AMEY VICTORIA ADKINS-JONES, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY AND AFRICAN AND AFRICAN DIASPORA STUDIES, BOSTON COLLEGE AND REVEREND DOCTOR BARBARA SIMMONS, PASTOR OF PLYMOUTH BETHEL A.M.E. CHURCH.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

SO I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU, DR. ADKINS-JONES WITH WHAT MIGHT SEEM LIKE A CONTRADICTORY CHURCH, SAYING THE BLACK CHURCH.

YOU'RE CLEAR THE BLACK CHURCH IS NOT A MONOLITH.

EXPLAIN BHAW MEAN.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO OFTEN WE HEAR THE BLACK CHURCH AND WE THINK THAT EVERYONE IS IN AGREEMENT OR THERE'S ONLY ONE AGREEMENT.

BUT REALISTICALLY THERE ARE SEVERAL BLACK CHURCHES, A SET OF CULTURAL VALUES AND ETHOS THAT HAVE SUSTAINED US THROUGH TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS, THROUGH ASPECTS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THERE ARE NOT ONLY HISTORICALLY BLACK DENOMINATIONS BUT IN PLAIN LINE DENOMINATIONS EVEN WITHIN CLOCTISM, THERE HAVE BEEN PRAWMEDLY CATHOLICISM, WHEN SOMEONE IS RUNNING FOR OFFICE, BIT THAT WE ARE SCOOTED BY A NUMBER OF DIFFERING OPINIONS, A NUMBER OF DIFFERING EXPERIENCES, AND SO WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT THAT, PARTICULARLY WHEN PEOPLE ARE ARTICULATING THAT THE BLACK CHURCH IS THIS OR BLACK PEOPLE THINK ONE THING.

WE HAVE TO BE MORE NUANCED WHO BLACK CHRISTIANS ARE AND HOW BLACK CHRISTIANITY HAVE BEEN SHAPED IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Crossley: RERCHLD ROSS, YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S A SHIFT IN HOW THE CHURCH'S COMMUNITY IS IN THESE DAYS AND TIMES IN RECENT YEARS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE CHURCH IS BEING PUT UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE.

AND I THINK THAT IS TRUE FOR ALL CHURCHES.

I FOUND COMMUNITY DEFINITELY BEGINNING IN THE CHURCH OF MY CHILDHOOD WHICH WAS A SMALL CHURCH, THAT WAS FOUNDED BY MY ANCESTORS IN RURAL ALABAMA.

AN AREA THAT WAS POOR AND WHERE PEOPLE TOOK CARE OF EACH OTHER.

AND THAT IS WHERE I FIRST FOUND JESUS.

I UNDERSTOOD WHO FOR ME JESUS IS.

I THINK THAT THERE IS IN THIS MOMENT A CONTINUATION OF THAT KIND OF COMMUNAL AND PROPHETIC AND JUSTICE OIRNTSED BLACK CHRISTIANITY AND BLACK CHURCH AND I THINK THERE ALSO IS A FOCUS IN SOME BLACK CHURCHES ON EXTREME MATERIALISM, ON WEALTHS, ON OTHER THINGS.

SO I THINK THAT ALSO THERE IS JUST SIMPLY THE TRUTH THAT CHURCHES I THINK ARE STRUGGLING WITH RESOURCES, I THINK THAT ALSO THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE IN WAYS AND IN COMMUNITY IN WAYS THAT HAVEN'T HISTORICALLY BEEN PRESENT.

SO BLACK CHURCHES AND CHURCHES IN GENERAL ARE NO LONGER THE CENTER OF MANY COMMUNITIES AS THEY HAVE BEEN.

IN FACT WE KNOW THAT MANY BLACK FOLK EVEN NO LONGER LIVE IN NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THEIR CHURCHES ARE.

AND THAT MEANS THAT CHURCHES HAVE TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS AND THAT THEIR OPPORTUNITIES ARE DIFFERENT THAN THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST.

>> Crossley: SO REVEREND MARIAMA WHITE-HAMMOND, YOUR CHURCH IS KINDS OF EMBLEMATIC, OF THE RECOGNITION THAT DR. ADKINS-JONES IS TALKING ABOUT BLACK CHURCHES NOT BEING A MONOLITH.

>> YES, I THINK OUR CHURCH IS A LITTLE BIT OVER TWO YEARS OLD.

WE ARE A CHURCH PLANT WITHIN THE AFRICA METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH, WHICH IS NOT KNOWN FOR STARTING A LOT OF NEW CHURCHES BUT WE ARE ONE.

AND WE ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT 40% BLACK, 40% WHITE AND 20% NONBLACK PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO WE ACTUALLY ARE MUCH MORE MULTIRACIAL OF A COMMUNITY.

HOWEVER, THE WHITE FOLKS THAT COME TO OUR CHURCH DO SO BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT IS PART OF THEIR FAITH PRACTICE TO BE UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF A CHURCH THAT HAS A STRONG HISTORY AROUND JUSTICE AND RACIAL JUSTICE.

NOW, THE KEY THING IS, OUR SEGREGATION ALSO WELCOMES AND -- CONGREGATION ALSO WELCOMES AND FIRMS LGBTQ, THAT IS NOT WHERE MY DENOMINATION IS BUT THAT'S CERTAINLY A CHALLENGE.

BUT I KEY PART OF WHY OUR FOLKS COME IS THEY FEEL LIKE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RELEVANT ISSUES OF THE DAY.

WE ARE FLEXIBLE, IN OUR WORSHIP APPROACH, AND TRYING TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS MORE REFLECTIVE OF THE LIVES WE LIVE NOW.

AND WE ARE FULLY WELCOMING.

AND I THINK THAT HAS ALLOWED US TO GROW AND MOVE IN A WAY THAT THE CHURCH AS A WHOLE UNFORTUNATELY IS NOT GROWING.

IN FACT THE CHURCH AS A WHOLE IS SHRINKING.

I THINK IN MANY INSTANCES IT IS BECAUSE THERE ARE CHALLENGES AROUND A WILLINGNESS TO CHANGE AND A WILLINGNESS TO ADDRESS AND BE PRESENT WE ISSUES THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY DEALING WITH NOW.

>> Crossley: I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT IN JUST A FEW MINUTES BUT REVEREND SIMMONS, I WANT TO REACH OUT TO YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE VERY CLEAR THAT THE CORE OR THE ESSENCE OF THE BLACK CHURCH HOWEVER IT'S DEFINED HAS TO BE RESTED ON THE ROCK OF SOCIAL JUSTICE.

AND IF THE CHURCH IS NOT DOING THAT, YOU KNOW THAT'S A PROBLEM AS YOU SEE IT.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, I WAS INTERESTED IN, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THIS.

SOMETIMES THEY THINK THE CHURCH IS WHERE YOU GO ON SUNDAY.

BUT THE BLACK CHURCH GOES BEYOND THE EDIFICE THAT YOU ARE PART OF WAYS THAT PEOPLE DON'T THINK ABOUT CHURCH IN THAT WAY BUT FOR BLACK CHURCHES -- >> ABSOLUTELY, KAYLEIGH.

WE HAVE SUCH -- CALLIE, WITH WE'VE HAD THAT MANDATE NOT ONLY TO CARE FOR OUR CONGREGANTS, TO CARE FOR THE COMMUNITY, TO CARE FOR OUR FAMILIES, WE HAVE TO EDUCATE ABOUT ALL ISSUES.

I MAKE SURE THAT MY MEMBERS GO ON TO THEIR MEDICAL -- TAKING CARE OF THEMSELVES MEDICALLY, CERTAINLY MAKING SURE THAT THEY GO.

CERTAINLY WHEN REVENUE TALKED ABOUT ALABAMA, I WAS BORN IN ALABAMA AND RAISED IN FLORIDA, SO THE BLACK CHURCH HAS BEEN MY LIFE ALL ALONG.

I'VE SEEN THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE BLACK CHURCH.

MY MOTHER WAS EDUCATED IN THE SCHOOL OF THE BLACK CHURCH WHERE IT WAS SCHOOL MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY, THEN SUNDAY IT TURNED INTO A CHURCH.

SO IT'S JUST A PART OF ME, AND I'M IT.

AND THE ROLE OF THE PASTOR IS HUGE.

THE EXPECTATIONS ARE HUGE.

AND WE HAVE TO RISE TO AT A THAT HAPPEN.

AND -- RISE TO THAT.

AND I TELL EVERYBODY YOU HAVE TO LOVE I.T.

YOU CONSTANT BE WARM, LUKEWARM ABOUT IT, YOU HAVE TO LOVE IT AND I LOVE IT.

>> Crossley: I WANT TO LOOK AT HENRY LOIS GATES SERIES, THE BLACK CHURCH, IT DISCUSSES THE COLLECTIVE POWER TO CREATE HOUSES OF WORSHIP BY BLACK PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH.

>> I THINK THE BLACK CHURCH WAS THE THING WE WERE TOTALLY IN CHARGE OF.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY EXTERNAL FORCES THAT HAD TO GIVE US PERMISSION.

WHATEVER WE WANTED TO DO.

IT WAS UP TO US, IT WAS OURS.

>> IN THE FIRST DECADE AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, THOUSANDS OF BLACK CHURCHES SPROUTED THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH.

TO UNIFY AND UPLIFT A COMMUNITY THAT HAD BEEN DIVIDED AND DEGRADED IN BONDAGE.

>> Crossley: SO WITH SUCH A CORE SPACE IN AFRICAN AMERICAN LIFE, IT'S ALSO THE PLACE WHERE YOU ALL HAVE HINTED A LITTLE BIT WHERE WE WORK OUT A LOT OF ISSUES ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE WANT TO ACCEPT.

SO I WANT TO GO BACK AND PICK UP A LITTLE BIT OF WHERE REVEREND MARIAMA WHITE-HAMMOND BEGAN ABOUT THIS ACCEPTING OF ALL FOLKS.

AND IT HAS BEEN KIND OF CONTENTIOUS IN RECENT YEARS ABOUT LGBTQ FOLKS.

DR. ADKINS-JONES SPEAK TO THAT AND WHAT YOU SEE IS THE IMPACT?

IT MOVING FOR CHURCHES IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION LIKE REEREND BHIET-HAM MONDZ OR IS IT A PLACE WHERE WE ARE HAVING A WHOLE HAD LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT IT, WHICH ISN'T BAD BUT WHERE ARE WE?

>> IT IS I THINK WE ARE STILL IN A APPLICABILITY OF A LIMINAL SPACE.

A LOT OF TIME THE REEMPS THAT IS CITED, THEY ASK AND POLL IN TERMS OF CLIMATE.

YOU KNOW, ARE YOU FULLY IN SUPPORT OF INCLUSION, AND THEN THERE ARE THESE DIFFERENT GRADIENTS OR ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY AGAINST IT?

WHAT GETS CITED ARE VERY LOW NUMBERS FOR FULL SUPPORT BUT IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK HISTORICALLY ABOUT BLACK COMMUNITIES THERE IS MUCH MORE OVERWHELMING MAJORITIES ARE MODERATE OR AT LEAST LIKE QUESTIONING.

AND SO I THINK A LOT OF TIMES WE HAVE TO ASK WHAT -- WE HAVE TO BE VERY REALISTIC ABOUT THE HARMS AND WOUNDS OF OUR CHURCHES AND PARTICULARLY THE HARMS AND THE WOUNDS THAT COME FROM DENOMINATIONAL STRUCTURES BUT ABOUT LEADERSHIP.

SOMETHING WOULD I SAY ABOUT THE RECENT DOCUMENTARY, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING TO SOMEONE OF THE CLERGY VERSUS WHEN YOU ARE SEEING WHAT'S LIVED OUT IN PRACTICE OF CONGREGANTS.

ON VARIOUS SIDES OF NUMBERS OF ISSUES.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WHAT WORK THAT DOES OR WHAT WORK THAT IS DOING.

PARTICULARLY WHEN EVEN IF THERE HAVE BEEN SUPPOSED THEOLOGICAL STANCES, THE BLACK CHURCH AS WELL AS THE CHURCH IN GENERAL, SMALL C, BIG C, HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE WAYS THAT IT HAS USED IN PARTICULAR QUEER LIFE AND THOSE WHO IDENTIFY QUEER, FOR SERVICES WITHOUT DIGNIFYING OR QUALIFYING THE FULL DIGNITY OF WHO THEY ARE OR WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE.

SO I THINK THAT THERE ARE CHANGES COMING.

I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES AND SPACES OF WELCOME.

AND I ANY FARTHER OF THE SHIFT THAT WE MAY BE SEEING ARE THAT BECAUSE OF THE CONTRACTION OF CHURCH MEMBERSHIP AND THAT PEOPLE ARE LEAVING CERTAIN KINDS OF CHURCHES THEY'RE FINDING SPACES LIKE REVEREND WHITEHAM MONDZ, MAINTAINING ASPECTS OF THAT ETHOS, WHERE TYPICALLY PATRIARCHAL, GRAND DISTANTING STAGE OF WHO GETS THE MIC SOMETIMES WHEN WE ARE SCGD ABOUT REPRESENTATION IN THE BLACK CHURCH.

>> Crossley: SO REVEREND WHITE-HAMMOND, WHEN WE LOOK AT CHURCHES THAT ARE OPEN THIS WAY WE SEE A NUMBER OF THINGS.

YOUNG PEOPLE IN LEADERSHIP.

WE SEE WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP ROLES, THEY ARE ALWAYS IN LEADERSHIP IN CHURCHES BUT NOT NECESSARILY IN THE TITLED ROLLS ROLES THAT WE TEND TO SEE IN LEADERSHIP.

AM I WRONG OR TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

>> I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A SHIFT.

I HAVEN'T DONE A STUDY WHERE I HOLD EVERYONE.

BUT I THINK I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED BY THE NUMBER OF OLDER PEOPLE WHO ARE SHIFTING.

I'VE HAD PEOPLE COME UP TO ME WHO KNOW ABOUT OUR CONGREGATION, THAT WANTED TO ENGAGE WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE.

FOR WHATEVER MAY BE ON PAPER, PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT OUR CONGREGATION AND I'VE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED HIGH LEVELS OF SUPPORT.

SO I THINK, ARE WE READY TO MAKE A CLEAR, OPEN DECLARATION?

I THINK POLICY WISE, WE MAY STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO.

BUT I -- WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IS, AS PEOPLE'S GRANDCHILDREN HAVE COME OUT TO THEM, AS TEACHERS AND FRIENDS HAVE COME OUT OF CLOSET, PEOPLE HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, I THINK, I KNOW JESUS LOVES THIS PERSON AND I AM TOO.

I THINK BLACK PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING THE SAME THING THAT I THINK THE ENTIRE NATION IS EXPERIENCING.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AS QUEER FOLKS HAVE SPOKEN UP OUR RESPONSE, NOT ALWAYS, NOT PERFECTLY, BUT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING FROM A PLACE OF MOVE.

AND THAT IS SHIFTING OUR THINKING AROUND THE POLICIES THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

>> Crossley: REVEREND SIMMONS.

>> YES.

AS MARIAMA WAS SPEAKING, WE HAVE ALL BECOMING MORE AWOKE.

THAT'S COVID HAS HELPED, WE'RE BEING ABLE TO THINK MORE, WE'RE GETTING CLOSER TO GOD AS A RESULT.

BECAUSE GOD IS THERE.

WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SEE OUR FAMILY MEMBERS BUT GOD IS THERE.

I THINK THAT'S THE IMPORTANT PART.

WE ARE LOOKING AT LOVE MORE THAN HATE.

AS BAD AS THAT GENERATION 60 WAS, THAT GAVE US ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE, I'M NOT SURE WE NEEDED ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE BUT IT GAVE US ONE.

MY EYES ARE WIDE OPEN, THAT'S THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT THIS AND I THINK EVERYBODY'S EYES ARE WIDE OPEN.

>> Crossley: GO AHEAD, I DIDN'T WANT TO STEP ON YOU.

>> I APPRECIATE THIS QUESTION, I'M A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIES AFRICAN AMERICAN, A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIES AS QUEER, BORN IN THE BLACK CHURCH.

WHILE I KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD HORRIFIC EXPERIENCES THAT HAS NEVER BEEN MY EXPERIENCE AND THAT SPEAKS TO THE DIVERSITY AND THE THE BREATH OF THE BLACK CHURCH I THINK.

AND IN FACT THE CHURCH WHERE I WAS, YOU KNOW, THAT SUPPORTED ME THROUGH SEMINARY AND WHERE I WAS A FOREIGN FOR MINISTRY AND ORDAINED.

IN WASHINGTON, D.C, WHERE THE PASTORS WERE A MALE AND FEMALE HETEROSEXUAL COUPLE WHO WERE PROBABLY IN THEIR YOU KNOW 60S AT THE TIME, LATE 50S OR 60S, WHO LED THE EFFORT FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

THERE ARE CHURCHES THAT ARE DOING THIS.

AND I THINK THAT ALSO, CHURCHES HAVE TO ALSO REALIZE I THINK THAT THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY, RIGHT?

BECAUSE THEY DID LOSE MEMBERS OVER THAT.

THEY WERE OSTRACIZED BY OTHER CLERGY AS A RESULT OF THAT.

SO I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF CHANGE AND THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

>> Crossley: SO WHAT DO YOU THINK POSITIVE WILL COME OUT IN A PERMANENT CHANGE BECAUSE OF COVID?

WE COULD NOT GATHER TOGETHER, YET ALL CHURCHES HAVE ENGAGED IN THE DIGITAL SPACE, IN SOME WAYS YOU GOT MORE PEOPLE IN CHURCH, QUOTE UNQUOTE, IN THE DIGITAL SPACE THAN YOU HAD BEFORE.

L.MARIAMA WHITE-HAMMOND WHAT HAS POSITIVELY CHANGED DO YOU THINK AS A RESULT OF THAT?

>> WELL, THE TECHNOLOGICAL PIECE IS CLEAR.

I WAS PART OF A YOUNG ADULT CHATTEL GROUP AND WE WOULD GO TO MEETING MEETINGS.

I REMEMBER A MEETING JUST BEFORE COVID WHERE THE SPEAKER MENTIONED YELP.

WHAT'S THAT?

WE WERE KIND OF JOKING ABOUT IT.

BUT I'VE SEEN A HUGE LEAP, AS A RESULT THEIR ABILITY TO JUST REACH YOUNG PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.

I'VE ALSO FOUND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A GENERATIONAL DIVIDE AND THAT'S NOT ONLY IN BLACK COMMUNITIES, GENERATIONAL DIVIDES HAVE EXISTED ALL THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY.

BUT I THINK WHAT COVID HAS DONE IS ACTUALLY A LOT OF THE OLDER PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO TURN TO YOUNGER PEOPLE TO SAY, HELP US FIGURE OUT HOW WE ARE GOING TO INNOVATE IN THIS PERIOD.

AND THAT'S ACTUALLY I'VE SEEN BROUGHT A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE INTO LEADERSHIP ROLES, HAS CREATED ACTUALLY GREATER APPRECIATION AND PARITY BETWEEN GENERATIONS, THAT I ACTUALLY THINK COULD BE A PLATFORM FOR A MUCH DEEPER SET OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW WE CONTINUE TO INNOVATE.

SO I THINK IT'S NOT PERFECT.

OBVIOUSLY WE STILL HAVE PLACES WHERE FOLKS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INTERNET ACCESS THAT HAS LOCKED PEOPLE UP.

I DON'T WANT TO PRETEND THAT THERE HAVE NOT BEEN REAL CONSEQUENCES AND PEOPLE LEFT BEHIND.

BUT ON THE WHOLE WHERE I LOOK AT WHERE OUR DENOMINATION IS AT THIS POINT, I THINK OUR OPENNESS TO OINNOVATION AND OUR ABILITY -- TO NOTIFICATION INNOVATION, FIGURE OUT HOUSE TO MOVE FORWARD, IF WE CAN TAKE THAT SAME ENERGY IN THE POST-COVID PERIOD I THINK IT'S OFFERING US A REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR A RENAISSANCE OF A CHURCH IN ITS MULTIFACETED MANY COMPLEX DIMENSIONS THAT WILL LEAVE US HEALTHIER AND STRONGER THAN WE WERE BEFORE COVID.

>> Crossley: REVEREND SIMMONS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK, THIS MAY SEEM A LITTLE FUNNY BUT PEOPLE ARE FOCUSED ON THE WORD RIGHT NOW, NOT WHAT THE PASTOR IS WEARING, WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE IS HEARING, WHO HAS THE BIGGEST HAT.

IT'S THE WORD OF GOD AND I THINK THAT'S MOST IMPORTANT AND PEOPLE ARE EXCITED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY'RE HEARING IT FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> Crossley: WOW.

>> FOR ME THAT'S A BLESSING.

WE'RE SO INTO THE BIG HATS AND WHAT SO-AND-SO WORE, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, THAT'S WHY A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID THEY WOULDN'T COME TO CHURCH.

NOW PEOPLE HAVE THE APPROPRIATE ATTIRE WITHOUT BEING JUDGED ABOUT THAT.

>> Crossley: REVEREND ROSS.

>> I THINK THE CHURCH HAS BEEN TRANSFORMED BY THIS EXPERIENCE AS HORRIBLE AS IT'S BEEN.

I THINK THAT THE CHURCH WAS OVERDUE FOR SOME OF THE TRANSFORMATION THAT'S TAKEN PLACE.

I THINK THAT WHEN I TALK TO CHURCHES NOW, AND CLERGY, I WANT -- ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS I HAVE IS, SO HOW ARE YOU PLANNING FOR THE POST-COVID PERIOD, BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOING BANG TO WHAT WAS BEFORE.

SOME OF THE THINGS I THINK CERTAINLY SHOULD BE IN PLACE BEFORE, WE HAVE DRAMATICALLY INCREASED ACCESS.

PEOPLE WHO COULD NEVER MAKE IT TO CHURCH BECAUSE OF PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OR BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE FINANCIAL WHEREWITHAL TO GET THERE, BECAUSE OF THEIR SCHEDULES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GO TO CHURCH CONSISTENTLY IN WAYS THEY HADN'T BEFORE.

PEOPLE WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON WANTED TO CONNECT BUT WERE AFRAID OR WHATEVER, HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CONNECT TO CHURCH.

HAS BEEN A GOOD THING.

SRGE I DON'T THINK WE'LL STAY IN THE VIRTUAL ONLY SPACE BUT I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL FOR CHURCHES TO WANT TO BE RELEVANT IN THE FUTURE, HOW DO WE DO THIS SORT OF HYBRID THING WHERE WE'RE BOTH IN PERSON AND FILCH A WAY THAT'S NOT JUST SAYING, LOOK AT THE VIDEO FROM WORSHIP, I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WILL BE EXPECTING.

>> Crossley: DR. ADKINS JONES.

>> I WORKED AS A PASTOR, I'M MARRIED TO AUTOPASTOR PROFESSOR.

WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY SEEN THE SAME SORTS OF TRENDS IN OUR CONGREGATION OF MORE PEOPLE COMING TO BIBLE STUDY THAN WHOEVER COULD MAKE IT OUT PHYSICALLY ON A WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

BECAUSE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOG ON.

THAT'S THE KIND OF ACCESS THAT ONE, RESISTS SOME OF THE AGEIST NOTIONS THAT CERTAIN OF OUR ELDER MORE SEASONED GENERATION, THEY HAVE BEEN FIGURING OUT HOUSE TO LOG ON.

I AGREE WITH REVEREND WHITE HAMMOND, THAT INTERGENERATIONAL CONNECTION, MY GRANDCHILD GOT ME ON.

THEY'RE ON THE CHAT.

FOLKS ARE SAYING AMEN IN THE COMMENTS.

AND SO YOU HAVE THESE NEW KINDS OF COMMUNITY, THESE NEW KINDS OF OF EXPERIENCES, AND I ALSO THINK WHAT THAT ACCESS IS DOING AND WHAT WE WILL SEE IS THAT WE CONTINUE TO BE IN A RACIAL PANDEMIC.

WE CONTINUE THE HAVE THE SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES THAT HAVE AS REFERENCE, HAVE BEEN THE BEDROCK OR THE PULSE OF THE BLACK CHURCH BUT ALSO HAVE ALWAYS REMAINED CONTENTIOUS.

NOT ALL BLACK CHURCHES WERE INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, NOT ALL BLACK CHURCHES SUPPORTED KING OR BAKER OR QUAME TURE, RIGHT?

WE CAN CONTINUE THE PROAFTD, I THINK THAT BRIDGING ASPECTS OF THIS TECHNOLOGICAL DIVIDE HAS ACTUALLY GALVANIZED OUR COMMUNITIES MORE IN TERMS OF FIGURING OUT WAYS TO BE MORE VOCAL TO SPEAK OUTS TO BE MORE INVOLVED AND TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF NEW LEADERSHIP IN DIFFERENT FORMS OF MODELS AND MOVEMENTS THAT AREN'T JUST COMMITTED TO REPLICATING WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OR ONLY HAVING A CERTAIN YOU KNOW EMBODIMENT OF LEADERSHIP BUT ARE CONTINUING TO KEEP THE CHUMP ACCOUNTABLE TO WHO WE SAY GOD IS, WHO WE SAY JESUS IS AND WHO WE SAY ARE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST.

>> Crossley: THANK YOU.

I HAVE ONE MORE TASK FOR YOU WITH JUST A FEW MINUTES TO GO O.

EACH OF YOU LEAVE A LITTLE HOPE AND GIVE A SCRIPTURE FOR THESE TIMES.

WHO WANT TO START, REVEREND ROSS?

>> YES, I WILL START.

I THINK THE SCRIPTURE I WOULD OFFER FOR THIS TIME IS THAT EYES HAVE NOT SEEN, EARS HAVE NOT HEARD WHAT THE LORD HAS IN STORE FOR YOU.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

REVEREND WHITE-HAMMOND.

>> I WOULD SAY HEBREWS 12:1, SINCE WE ARE SURROUNDED BUY GREAT CROWD OF WITNESSES.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO REMIND FOLKS ESPECIALLY DURING BLACK HISTORY MONTH.

WE ARE NOT EXPERIENCING ANYTHING THAT OUR ANCESTORS DID NOT GO THROUGH.

AND IT'S IN OUR DNA TO SURVIVE AND THRIVE.

WE'RE DOING IT.

>> Crossley: REVEREND SIMMONS.

>> PSALM 1:18, 24.

THIS IS THE DAY THE LORD HAS MADE.

I'M GOING TO REJOICE DMOM MATTER WHAT HAS HAPPENED, I'M STILL GOING TO KEEP MY JOY.

>> Crossley: DR. ADKINS-JONES.

>> WEEPING MAY ENDURE FOR THE NIGHT BUT JOY COMES IN THE MORNING.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, THESE ARE HOPEFUL, SPIRITUAL SCRIPTURES TO GO TO ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS.

AND WE HAVE MORE CONVERSATION TO HAVE WITH ALL OF YOU INCLUDING TAKING A LOOK AT YOUNG PEOPLE IN LEADERSHIP.

SO THAT'S COMING UP IN JUST A MINUTE.

BUT FOR NOW, THAT'S THE END OF OUR PRODUCT AND THE END OF -- BROADCAST AND THE ENDS OF OUR SHOW.

THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

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