- Just ahead on "American Black Journal", our Black Church in Detroit series examines the church's strong voice and important role in politics.

We're gonna talk about getting out the Black vote, the church's influence on key issues and what's at stake in the midterm elections.

It's a conversation you absolutely don't wanna miss, so stay right there.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

(soft upbeat music) - [Male Announcer] From Delta Faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Female Announcer] The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of "American Black Journal" in covering African-American history, culture and politics.

The DTE Foundation and "American Black Journal" partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Male Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(bright upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal".

I'm Stephen Henderson.

Today we are continuing our series on the Black Church in Detroit, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African-American History.

Throughout the modern Civil Rights Movement, Black Churches have worked to get "Souls to the Polls" at election time, and this year is no different.

There is an awful lot at stake in the midterm elections, which will be held on November 8th.

I sat down with two ministers to talk about the political power of the Black Church.

Here is my conversation with Detroit Branch NAACP President, Reverend Wendell Anthony of Fellowship Chapel, and Reverend Charles Williams II from Historic King Solomon Baptist Church and President of the Michigan Chapter of the National Action Network.

I actually wanna start not talking about November 8th this year, but talking a little about history and the role and the importance of the Black Church in Black politics.

The very idea of Black voter participation, Black voting rights, all of these things find their power, really, historically in the Black Church.

Reverend Anthony, talk about why that's so.

- Well, thanks for having us, Stephen.

Obviously, one cannot talk about Black politics without talking about the Black Church.

For so many years, centuries, the Black Church is all that we've had.

It is where most of our political leadership has emerged.

Dr. King, you're talking about Adam Clayton Powell, (indistinct) Franklin, so many leaders have come out of the Black Church in terms of it being the bastion of Black liberation and progress.

It being the meeting place for freedom discussions and the emergence and the convergence, the ability to organize people.

So that's all we had.

So it's a natural situation where it would emerge from that.

Obviously, during the '50s and '60s, the Black Church was preeminent, that's why the 16th Street Church was bombed.

You might recall that's where Martin Luther King held most of his rallies in basements, in sanctuaries of the Black Church.

You can go back even before that, Richard Allen, Absalom Jones, all of them had their power within the Black Church.

Even Harriet Tubman was a AME Z. minister.

And so it's consistent.

And even in South Africa, and I was just in South Africa, the Black Church there, Bishop Desmond Tutu, and so many, Allen Boesak, the Black Church it has been that power base.

And so it's a natural result of our participation in this process, and it's what we have.

It's where we gather every Sunday, Monday sometimes, Wednesdays, bible study, and it's something that we need and we use.

And it has been that engine that has propelled us to where we are.

- Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Williams, I often think of the dual role that Black ministers are asked to play, it was actually not dual, it's multi but the two I'm thinking of is, as pastor and then as as activist.

Obviously, Reverend Anthony has this rich history of activism in our city.

You through the National Action Network are cut from the same cloth that need to focus on advancement and organization for Black people as well as spirituality.

- Absolutely.

I don't think, there's no mistake in the fact that during Reconstruction, we had all over the country, African-American pastors who entered into legislatures and state senates, as well as even Congress.

Hiram Rhodes Revels, during reconstruction, first Black Congressional representative, representing the United States Congress.

As a matter of fact, it was because the power of the Black Church and the power of the Black minister that led in these state legislatures that we got what we got in reconstruction when they began to roll back voting rights all across the country and the protection that we have once from the Union Army began to disappear.

Look, Dubois makes it very clear in his book, Souls of Black Folks, that the Black Church is the everything for Black people, not just in the sense of what it does for us in regards to a safety net, but of course, it's where our Masons meet, it's where our fraternities and sororities meet, it's where our women's groups meet.

And so when it comes to organizing in our community, there's no better place than the Black Church.

And when it comes to finding individuals to represent us.

Well, in most of our Black traditions, congregations make the decision of who they want to serve as their pastor.

And so it's not a coincidence that you get a Hiram Rhodes Revels.

It's not a coincidence that you get a Reverend Floyd Flake.

It's not a coincidence that you get a Reverend Adam Clayton Powell because they've been already validated spiritually, now they're being validated politically.

- Yeah, Yeah.

- And that's another reason why you got a Reverend Rafael Warnock- - Hmm, in the Senate, yeah.

- Running against, I don't know what.

(all laughing) I do know what - I was gonna say, watch what you say.

- But I don't know what.

It's a travesty of justice, man.

- Yeah, yeah.

So, I do wanna get to some of the issues that you all are focused on as we get closer to the midterms.

But I wanna start that conversation with what I think is the issue for Black folks right now, and it's the right to vote.

Not since the 1960s, I feel, have we had such an assault, an open assault, not hidden, not subtle, but open legislation, open activism on the Right side of the political spectrum to try to limit or absolutely take away the Black vote.

Reverend Anthony, every election you work on getting people to get out and actually exercise their right to vote, take your "Souls to the Polls."

I feel like right now you also maybe have to take a baseball bat or something with you as well, if you're African-American.

- It's tough, Stephen, and you know it, Charles knows it, trying to get people to recognize how very critical this stuff is.

Politics controls everything, whether we like it or not.

We are at a crossroads.

Democracy is literally on the line.

There are over 400 bills that have been introduced and legislatures all across the country, right here in Michigan, we still have the 39.

I call 'em the mean 39 because they are still apparent.

The only thing stopping us or stopping those bills from having gone through is a governor by the name of Gretchen Whitmer, who vetoed a few, but they're still coming back and they ain't through.

And so it is a test for us, it is a challenge for us.

One of the things that they have done, I'm talking about, and I gotta say what it is, is these Republican legislators across the country.

They have written laws or written bills to create a lack of enthusiasm and interest and belief and trust in the process of voting.

In Georgia, Texas, Michigan, Mississippi, Alabama, Utah, they're all over the country in terms of bills that want to end early voting.

They wanna end same day voter registration.

They wanna limit the number of voting booths and polls on booths where you can go and drop your absentee ballot.

They want to have state legislators to override the right of the state elected official, the Secretary of States, to do their job.

People are intimidated who are volunteers.

They don't wanna come and be a part of the voting process.

That's a very dangerous situation.

And you still have people running around talking about, "You can't trust the process."

No, because that's what you're telling them.

"You can't trust the process."

And people are saying, "Basically if I win, it's a honest process."

(Stephen chuckles) "If I don't win, we gotta challenge it because it's not honest."

And so that puts us at a disadvantage.

And see, and I'm saying to Black people, Brown people, and poor white folk, all of us whether we like it or not, when you surrender, I don't wanna call it no Trump card, when you surrender your ace in the hole, your ace in the hole is your vote.

When you give that up, you are making them victorious.

In some cases, Stephen, they don't even have to do no voter suppression law.

We're suppressing ourselves by not going out and exercising our franchise.

- So Reverend Williams, it's just two years ago that we saw this angry white mob come down to Detroit during the counting of votes and try to not just disrupt the process, but end the process.

They said, "Stop the count," then later, "Stop the steal."

I don't think any of us expects a repeat of that on November 8th.

I think that they have tightened things to a point where that wouldn't repeat itself.

But, you now have people running for positions where they're accountable for making sure that votes are counted.

People signing up to be poll workers who doubted the integrity of that vote.

So what's the answer to that?

How do we as a community answer that?

- I want folks to do this.

Look, I mean, we've gotta make sure we do everything to protect our pose and protect our elections, because you're absolutely right.

There are those who come to upset the process.

And there's no better place to do that than to do that at the National Association Advancement of Color people in Detroit branch, NAACP.

And I wanna tell folks it's a nonpartisan effort.

The NAACP does this every election, 313-871-2087, join and make sure that you are a part of being a poll watcher during that election.

And Reverend Anthony, I ain't doing your job, but I think it's important that we- - But Robin- - To have folks to get out and they got to be there to protect those polls.

There are people who are coming down to try to upset the election.

But the second thing I'll say is this, we can't fall for the second big lie, Steve, we just cannot do it.

The first big lie is that the election was rigged.

The second big lie is that it's okay for us to protest and not do anything on the other side of that protest.

That's a huge piece here.

We just went through our me Ahmaud Arbery, we just went through George Floyd over the last four years.

We just went through this issue and that issue.

We've got issue after issue.

And now there are a lot of folks upset.

We ain't got enough... women's right to choose.

There are a lot of folks upset.

We didn't get enough in regards to financial aid and student loan repayment.

We didn't, we didn't, we didn't.

If we don't turn our demonstration into legislation, we lose every time.

And the way that we turn our demonstration to legislation is we get out and vote and put the people in place that can actually do something about the legislation that we need changed.

And if we're gonna be concerned about January 6th, if we're gonna be concerned about individuals who thwart elections by putting together bad legislation that ultimately hurts us and keeps us from getting to the polls, we can cry all we want, demonstrations, protests, that is for display to show that we're upset, but voting is the pill that heals the problem, right?

And so we've gotta make sure we take our medicine and get out the vote.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I can't agree with Charles more than that, Stephen, protest without practice ain't nothing but puff or void.

You're puffing yourself up, but you're not doing nothing about it.

James Brown told us that years ago, you talking loud, but you ain't doing nothing.

It's time to do something.

- Yeah, yeah.

So, I wanna talk a little about the other side of the coin here.

And I don't know that I've ever talked with either of you about this.

A lot of this push on the Right side of the political spectrum is coming out of churches as well.

White evangelical churches often are at the root of the anti-civil rights agenda, of course the anti-voting agenda.

And look, those of us who've been raised in a Christian Church are raised to believe that we're all brothers, we're all family, right?

All of us who believe are supposed to be together.

But boy, that really strains that belief.

And I guess I'm left wondering what we're supposed to be doing about that.

What is the right way to respond to this kind of white evangelical activism that's right up against everything that we're talking about here, Reverend Anthony?

- Well, I think, Steve, you raise an interesting point.

There's a reason why Donald Trump just recently tweeted that he wants American Jews to be more like white evangelicals or be the evangelicals because and if they don't, something is gonna happen.

They in trouble.

Well, the white Right is often white and wrong.

They're more concerned about whiteness than rightness.

And I think that's where we find ourselves.

There's a difference, Stephen, between Black evangelicals and white evangelicals.

It's a whole question of nationalism.

Evangelicals simply means bringing out, spreading out the word of God, articulating the word of God to the people.

Well, what is the word of God?

To do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with our Lord.

What is the word of God?

To treat folk like they should be treated.

Well, where's the word of God?

He was concerned about poor folks and no folks.

He was about lifting up folk.

And if you're not doing that, then you are not consistent with the teachings of the word of the Christ that you say and purport to believe and adhere.

I think that the Black Church has to be just as strong and just as strategic and just as poignant and forceful in its quest to do what Jesus would do.

And we know what he would do if you read his word, it's very clear.

And not to make this a religious program, but you raise a question of the evangelicals, those folk who are in churches, big churches who are purporting and bringing in folk like Trump, who are supporting candidates that wanna take the right to civil rights and human rights of all kinds of people, Blacks and Browns who don't believe in immigration, who don't believe in people who have different choices about who they love and what they do.

And I know there's differences around that issue, but when you talk about the church, when you talking about Christianity, you have to be talking about something that's inclusive and encompassing, not something that's contracting and exclusive.

And I think that's what we have to do.

We gotta keep our hands on the gospel plow.

What are the gospel plow?

That's good news.

The good news is what we do have civil rights.

We should be voting, we should tolerate and respect the rights of all people.

We can disagree, but we don't have to be disagreeable or threaten nobody and kill nobody based upon our disagreement.

So it's a critical time in America from the pulpit to the podium in Washington DC.

We gotta stay on the case for the race.

- Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Williams.

- I mean, I think we've gotta be really concerned, right?

We gotta really be concerned about people who have selective protection or constitutional protection or selective care for individual when, as Reverend Anthony so eloquently said, we are here to protect all God's people.

We believe all God's children got shoes.

And so, when we look at the Okie Doke, when we look at the religious Right, I try to tell folks all the time, don't fall for the Okie Doke if they're only concerned about abortion, but they're not concerned about the child that lives.

If they're only concerned about protecting their white way of life, but they're not concerned about protecting your way of life, then it's obviously a ploy, a Right wing ploy with a Right wing agenda for the wrong reasons.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And Stephen, let me just say this.

What we are saying is not just about Black folk, this is about all folk.

I mean, we want everybody to vote.

I want Republicans, Democrats, Independents and folk who don't know what they are.

I want everybody to vote.

I want everybody to get an absentee ballot.

I want everyone to have access to early voting and same day voting and registration.

I want everybody to have that.

I just don't wanna make sure...

I do wanna make sure that I'm not extracted from that.

And that somehow there's a fence put around our community where we don't have the same rights as others.

But even if you disagree with me politically, that's all right, you should have the same right that I have.

And so for people who think that it's just a Black, it's not a Black thing.

This is an American thing.

American democracy is on the line.

If democracy goes down, everybody going down with that, (Stephen chuckles) whether you be a religious rightist, or whether you be a religious leftist, you going down.

King said it well, "We can either sink or we can swim or we can sail in this boat together."

We might not like it, but we in the same boat now and democracy is the boat that we should be trying to sail towards freedom, justice, and equity for everybody.

- Yeah.

So there are a lot of choices that we're gonna be making, especially as Detroiters on November 8th.

I do wanna give both of you a chance to talk about what's likely to happen in Congress for the first time since 1955.

We're not going to send an African-American from Detroit to represent Detroiters.

A lot of people very upset about that, a lot of people tried various things to make that not happen.

But it looks like that's where we'll be.

What does that say to the legacy of the civil rights movement that brought about the right to vote?

Reverend Williams?

- Now you done calling on Reverend Anthony the first, every single time.

Now this is the one you call on me first.

(Reverend Anthony chuckles) - Now you get the hard one.

- So, I didn't work out what I need to say.

(all laughing) - We can go first with Reverend Anthony.

I know, I know he will.

- Let's him go.

He's younger, so let the youth go first.

(all laughing) - I mean, look, I think it's very clear that we've gotta organize not just from the bottom, from the voter base, but we gotta organize from the top.

I mean, we've got a lot of bright individuals in the city of Detroit, and we got a lot of folks who would do very well in Congress.

But I think going forward, what we have all learned in Detroit is that we've gotta do the best we possibly can as showing the leadership against the attacks from individuals who come from the outside.

Look, Shri Thanedar is into place in it's highly likely with a high Democratic base that he will be voted in as the next congressperson.

But that doesn't mean there aren't more elections, there are more elections.

And if we're unhappy with the service that we get from Shri Thanedar, we're gonna have to get rid of Shri Thanedar.

And as Reverend Anthony very well knows, your political affiliation does not define our friends and enemies.

If you aren't doing the work of the people, then we've gotta get rid of you.

- Yeah, yeah.

Go ahead Reverend Anthony.

- Yeah, I think that, and Charles kind of called it, I'm not pleased with the results of the election in either district.

I think that it's a poor legacy that has been left to the likes of a John Conyers and Charles Diggs and a George Crockett, and to Albatross Collins, Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, all those people that ran.

I mean, and you called it this first time that we will not have an African-American sitting in Congress for us.

There's no African-American that's representing us at the Congressional Black Caucus.

When they walk across the stage and they introduce all the congressional people from cities and states around the country, Detroit will not have one.

And I be sitting there and I'm saying, "Whoa."

And they look at us like, "What in the world?"

And they didn't say world, "Did y'all do in Detroit?

How did you let that happen?"

Stephen, you and I and Charles know everybody can't win.

- That's right.

- It could be one Congress person, and if you know you don't have a shot to win, why are you in the- - Get out the way.

- Folks votes.

And why you in the way?

If you don't have the money, you can't raise nobody.

And people have already identified that this is our best shot, maybe this campaign is not for you.

Wait later, go somewhere else or another situation.

So many people focus on the ego as opposed to the we go.

We need to go to Congress, we need to protect our interests.

And so I'm simply saying, yeah, I'm upset about it, but I'm not so upset that I'm not going work to try to do something else different.

I'm going to look at what's happening, I'm going to be pensive about trying to support someone or ones who can do the job in the way that we want it done to represent us, to listen to us.

And so let the chips fall where they may.

If this guy does a great job, that's something different.

So he has a lot to prove and it's not about us proving to him, it's about him and her proving to us that they're worthy of our support.

Right now, the jury's still out.

- That's all there is from us this week.

You can find out more about our guests and view all of the Black Church in Detroit episodes at americanblackjournal.org.

And you can connect with us anytime on Facebook and on Twitter.

Take care and we'll see you next time.

(bright upbeat music) - [Male Announcer] From Delta Faucets to Behr Paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Female Announcer] The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of "American Black Journal" in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and "American Black Journal" Partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Male Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you Thank you.

(bright instrumental music)