♪♪ Founded in 1966 to challenge police brutality, the Black Panther Party was one of the most recognizable and influential movements of the sixties.

Former Black Panthers Van Taylor and Akinsanya Kambon join us to share their stories and perspectives on the movement and its relevance in 2023.

Van, how has the legacy of the Black Panther Party shaped the current climate of activism in the United States?

Well, I found it, uh, very interesting in that, uh, in 2008, when Barack Obama, uh, first started running for president, um, I felt a old kinship come up in thinking that there was many things that, uh, we did as a party and an organization that made, uh, his run, uh, possible- and not only a run, but a win.

Um, there's, uh, gun legislation that's on the books now, that- due to incidents, uh, right here in the state capital, uh, that, uh, took effect on that, uh, as well as one of the biggest things, I think, is the, uh, feeding of children in schools.

As you know, the, uh, Black Panther Party started and was instrumental in the Free Breakfast Program.

So, that's something that you see, uh, throughout the country each and every day, um, all the way up to high schools.

[Scott] Hmm.

Akinsanya, I...

I...

I'd like, uh, you to respond to the same question, given all of the places that you've been in... in activism and arts and... and other places as well, what do you see as the impact of the work that you and others did in the party on the current activism that you see here in the U.S.?

Well, one of the things that drew me to the Black Panther Party was the name 'Black Panther Party for Self-Defense,' and we had been looking at all the- And... and this is one of the things that out- nobody knew, because we didn't have cell phones, the amount of police brutality and murder of Black people in this country that was taking place.

And one of the reasons I was able to get so much of it was because I was in Vietnam and we had a battalion, and out of the- about- I don't know how many men in the battalion, maybe 5,000 or something like that, but we had about 30 to 50 African Americans who used to meet once a week, and we would talk about letters from home.

And every week, there was another guy getting a letter where the police had killed his cousin, his brother, his friend, or his uncle, or somebody got killed by the police.

This is in Saint Louis.

This is in Detroit.

This is all over the country, because we had people- And then, the one thing that I really remember is a guy from Oakland.

His parents sent him the first Black Panther, uh, paper- I think it was something about Denzil Dowell being murdered- and I remember that and we talked about it, and that's the first time I heard of the Black Panther Party.

I was sitting in Vietnam.

I had no idea that I would be drawn into this movement when I got back to the States.

I became the Lieutenant of Culture for the Sacramento chapter of the Black Panther Party.

And a lot of the work that I did was the cartoons.

I illustrated the Ten-Point platform and program, and that was what the party was built around, those ten points.

But nobody ever talks about those things, and those things- People are still fighting to make those things a reality to this day.

[Scott] Let me... let me... let me just jump in on... on... on that, Akinsanya.

[Akinsanya] OK. [Scott] As... as both of you are aware, there- the whole issue of violence against African Americans, particularly African American men, by the police is an issue even in this day and age.

And recent events seem to mirror that same point in the original Ten-Point plan from way back in 1966.

If... if you were with your- all of your colleagues today that you were in the party with at that time, would they be surprised that we're still having this conversation today?

[Van] Well, I...

I...

I don't think so.

Um, I think that, uh, if we just transplanted how we were thinking, uh, then and transported it to now, there was little faith in that, um, things would change just on their own.

As- That gave way to saying that, you know, "by any means necessary," as much as, uh, we wanted to do everything, um, peacefully, take upon some of the things that, uh, the, uh, civil rights, uh, movement did.

Uh, but at- by the time that, uh, Huey put together the platform and, specifically, what happened to him, and then it result in how our offices were raided continually and, uh, different, uh, brothers and sisters were incarcerated on trumped up charges and stuff, I think we had very little, uh, faith that things would change on their own, so, I...

I don't think it would be of much, uh, surprise to them.

[Scott] Akinsanya?

[Akinsanya] Well, I agree.

I don't think...

I don't think we had any faith in the system changing.

Uh, that... that's one of the reasons why we felt that we had to have an alternate plan.

And that's one of the reasons why we called ourselves the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense.

So many of us were being killed by the police back then, but there was no account of it.

We didn't have cell phones where you could record it.

All we had was word of mouth.

And I guess I had an advantage because being in Vietnam with... with brothers from all over the country, you're able to see all the stuff taking place all over the country.

And there's no way I would have known that if I hadn't of been associated with all these guys from all these different places and all these different cities, and the degree of it.

There's no record of it.

There's no account of it.

And that we were vilified, the Black Panther Party was vilified because of our position, and our stand on police brutality was the main thing.

The other points on that platform and program people still ignore- decent housing, uh, uh, education, uh, being exempt from military service, all those different things on that Ten-Point platform program we were fighting for and they still haven't come about.

They still haven't.

[Scott] Hmm.

I...

I...

I...

I want to, actually- Akinsanya, I want to ask you about that vilification.

J. Edvar- Edgar Hoover, the... the longest serving head of the FBI- actually, I think he was the first director of the FBI- called the Black Panther Party the single most, uh, dangerous and greatest threat to the nation's internal security.

And the thing that he was most focused on was the, uh, breakfast program.

[Akinsanya] Exactly.

[Scott] What was that all about?

[Akinsanya] First of all, when you look at the breakfast program- and most of the programs that we were trying to implement were socialist programs, they were counter to the capitalist economic system.

And we felt that if we showed the people the benefits of social programs, where we put the people's interests ahead of the interests of the ruling class and those who own and control the means of production, that this would make the people see it and see the things that they would benefit by implementing these programs.

Uh, the... the government- And he... he attacked the breakfast program because the U.S. government's so embarrassed by us feeding the children that we fed with that breakfast program, they had to start taking and feeding breakfast and... and... and lunch to children, low income children all over the country.

They took this up and now, they're the ones that get credit for it.

Nobody knows that the Black Panther Party is who forced the government to do that.

We're the ones who forced them to do that.

[Scott] Wait... wait a minute.

So, you're saying that today's reduced and free lunch program that schoolchildren all over the country benefit from, its genesis was the free lunch pro- or the... the... the breakfast program for kids that the Black Panthers started?

[Akinsanya] Yes, of course.

That's it.

[Van] I would, uh, add, as a 15-year-older, uh, I got a visit, with my mother's, uh, permission to them- they had, uh, contacted my mother first- um, two FBI agents at, uh, my home.

And, uh, they came in, two just very typical, uh, looking, uh, white gentlemen.

And, uh, they assured me that they didn't have any guns on them.

They opened up their jackets, uh, to see the front of them.

Quite naturally, they had their guns in the back or, you know, uh, foot holsters or whatever.

But, uh, they were wanting to know why would a good kid like me, um, want to be involved with, uh, something like that.

And immediately, I started talking about, well, you know, the breakfast program.

We feed kids and work.

He says, "Oh, well, that... that... that can't compare, uh, to anything about what the government does.

We have, uh, uh, spent millions of dollars for welfare for your people," and so forth, and "That's just a drop in the bucket."

But, um, I think that, also, just by the fact of- that we were able to go out into the community and get stores like Safeway at the time and, uh, different other, uh, mainstays, uh, to actually donate to us, and- which they did.

That's where we got our excess, uh- That's where we got the foods from, from many of the large chains, as well as, with the, uh, start of, uh, COINTELPRO, one of the main focuses was to, um, uh, deneutralize the legitimacy of the things that we were doing.

So, they were sowing misinformation.

So, how could you disparage this organization that's out there, uh, taking care of little kids and feeding little kids?

And at the same time, them looking at that we were out there, uh, wanting to shoot them and other things like that, so- [Scott] Uh, help- Some of us aren't really aware of COINTELPRO, so can you tell us what that was and... and what its impact was?

[Akinsanya] It was a counterintelligence program, uh, part of the FBI, where they infiltrated the Black Panther Party- and they're still doing the same thing with these organizations, Black Lives Matter.

COINTELPRO is still at work.

What they- What- And... and this is personal to me, because they took that Black Panther coloring book that I created and they... they said that we were using the coloring book to teach the kids how to kill 'pigs' before we fed 'em, which was a lie.

But that's what the FBI said, and people believed that.

And, you know, that... that- Never mind.

I mean, I...

I don't even want to get into talking about that coloring book because- [Scott] No, no.

Come on with it.

Come on with it, Akinsanya.

[Akinsanya] That's one of the things that COINTELPRO did, and that landed me in the Sacramento County Jail on death row fighting for my life, that coloring book.

They attacked us.

They had a subversive list, and my name, Mark Teemer, was number 18 on the FBI's subversive list.

And all that was behind the artwork that I did for the Black Panther Party.

[Scott] Hmm.

[Akinsanya] Um, there were so many people that infiltrated the organization that were working for the FBI.

That caused many of us to distrust each other.

They were saying that, "The guy who did the coloring book was a FBI agent."

This is stuff that was bull----.

It wasn't true, but this is the kind of things that they said to turn people against us.

But anyone who knew me knew that I was a sincere, dedicated Panther, and I put my life on the line for our people.

Same way I did in Vietnam.

[Scott] Now, you... Now, you were in Sacramento, correct?

[Akinsanya] Yes, I was.

[Scott] OK. And Van, the experience that Akinsanya's speaking to about the infiltration and people not trusting each other, was that the same- Was your... your experience similar up in the Bay Area?

[Van] Well, uh, not only, uh, in the Bay Area because of, uh, my position in the, uh, party.

And I must say I was 15 years old when I first joined the Black Panther Party, and the majority of, uh, the things that I was involved in was, uh, as a teenager.

I remember the thing that I wanted to do was, uh, I couldn't wait until I was 18 years old so that if I did get arrested, uh, for something major, I'd be able to go to big boys jail opposed to, uh, the juvenile equivalent.

OK?

But, uh, my information is nationwide because being an aide to the Central Committee, being, uh, Bobby Seale's personal bodyguard, uh, being around Huey, uh, and all the rest of 'em, uh, I was privy to information that was going on to the different chapters throughout, uh, the country, any of the, uh, big, large arrests.

Uh, the New York 21- 21 Panthers accused of bombings and this and that- they found out that, uh, you know, uh, 20 of the people that, uh, they say was doing things were agents of the, uh, police department.

Uh, Bobby Seale.

Bobby Seale, uh, spent all that, uh, time in Connecticut in jail because of the, uh, agent provocateur George Sams, that, uh, ended up murdering one of our, um, you know, Panther members.

So, it was full fledged.

Uh, it also, uh, was, um, uh, sanctioned by Congress.

They had to go to Congress to be able to pass a bill to be able to do the things that they did, uh, in COINTELPRO because it was CIA type tactics being used, uh, here on, um, you know, uh, home ground, uh, here inside America.

[Scott] Hmm.

I- You know, you talk about, uh, those types of tactics.

Akinsanya, uh, when- in... in Sacramento, there is that famous photograph of the Panthers at the state capitol.

The- Uh, and... and the reaction throughout the country to seeing the Panthers on the steps of the state capitol created, like, this uproar all over the place.

What was behind that?

Well, when... when they went to the Capitol, I was in Vietnam.

That was in 1967.

And when I got back and got out of the Marine Corps, that's when I became a member of the- of... of the Black Panther Party.

There was no chapter in Sacramento when they went to the Capitol, but people that saw those Panthers with the guns at the Capitol, that's what inspired, uh, the people who founded the chapter of the Black Panther Party in Sacramento.

Uh, brother Charles Bronson Omowale, he was the founder of the Sacramento chapter.

[Van] I remember him.

[Akinsanya] And he was the one, or one of the ones that recruited me into the party.

Um, we- You looked at that whole, uh, uh, Mulford Act that they... that they passed- the gun control thing they were passing- that was because of the Black Panther Party.

They were trying to control the guns that the Panthers had, and that's one of the things that stopped the police brutality.

I had some students do research, uh, from 1966 to 1969 and the murder of African people in this country by the police was serious up until 1966.

Between '66 and '69, there was a dramatic decrease in the murder of our people in this country, and that was because of the Black Panther Party.

[Scott] OK, well, hold on.

That begs the question though- and... and I'm going to put it to... to both of you, Akinsanya, please respond first- which is this- [Akinsanya] OK. [Scott] So, from the perspective of the Black Panthers, and even up until this moment today, is gun control a... a benefit or a detriment to Black people in this country?

Well, I would say I believe in gun control, but first, we have to take the guns from the police.

And then, everybody else give their guns up, because they're the biggest threat to us, is the police.

They're organized, and they try to make it look like gangs.

To us, the police is a big old organized gang that's against our people, and that's what they're doing.

Uh, that boy that was killed the other day, um, in, uh, Memphis... [Scott] Tyree Nichols.

[Akinsanya] ...he was from Sacramento.

He was from Sacramento.

And then, there was another young man in Sacramento that was killed by the police.

And... and you keep hearing this.

This is- This thing been going on since I was there.

So, that's one of the things why we had to do something about it.

We would follow the police when they came to Oak Park and when they pulled somebody over, we'd jump out of the car and we'd stand there with our weapons.

And the police got to the point where they stopped coming to Oak Park.

They wouldn't come in Oak Park at all unless they were four deep in the car.

[Scott] Van, what do you- Uh, what's your perspective on gun control as a former Black Panther?

[Van] Ooh.

Um, little bit different from Akinsanya, but I certainly hear what he's saying.

Uh, I...

I'm, uh, an advocate of, uh, gun control, but the thing about it is... is it has to be the same control uh, for, uh, my white brother as, uh, uh, it is [for] me.

Uh, I...

I think, you know, the guns are part of this country's culture and we see the color of the culture, the cowboys and all that kind of stuff and everything.

But, you know, if you have any relatives, um, that were from the South and so forth and everything, guns were just as part of their existence on a daily basis as any of their white counterparts because they used them to hunt with and to provide, uh, food for the family.

Um, at this particular point right now, um, I think that, um, you know, the country and the people that, um, are... are gravitating to guns feel more comfortable with, um, non-minorities and non-Blacks having guns than us, because it's too easy, uh, to just put it into a stereotype.

Uh, that's why you have so many, uh, Black police officers, uh, being shot by mistake by their white counterparts.

Uh, New York had bad problem with that.

They have, what, 50,000 police officers?

And, you know, there's, uh, divisions that guys don't even know that they exist and so forth, and they've tried to help out when they were, uh, off duty or whatever and end up getting shot themselves.

Because the norm, that culture overtakes that white cop is that there's a Black man with a gun, not one of my, uh, other fellow officers.

And just to kind of go a little bit further, Huey, uh, in his, uh, later years even said that if he had the foresight when it first came up, he would have left the emphasis of the guns out of the main platform of the party and focused more on the people's uh, programs, because, uh, the guns had such a overpowering, uh, effect of negativity that it drew in some people from the community that was just about the guns and the violence.

And then, it caused, uh, the others that were outside of the community to point the finger of, "See, see, we told you they were bad people.

Just a bunch of thugs running around with guns."

[Scott] All right.

Well, in... in... in our- [Akinsanya] I think- [Scott] Go ahead, Akinsanya, very quickly.

[Akinsanya] I think that initially- I think that when it started, when the party started, the guns were necessary.

I think that that was- And I agree that later on, uh, things changed and the need for the guns changed.

But I think that what happened is- Now, when you look at guns today, these people don't have a rifle and a shotgun.

They have automatic weapons.

The weapons that these people are using nowadays are weapons of war.

This is the kind of stuff used in Vietnam- AR-15, uh, M16, uh, AK-47- these are weapons for... for... for... for murdering humans.

These are war weapons.

They need to be all taken from the hands of the people.

I don't mind if people have a rifle and a shotgun for hunting.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But when they start getting these AR-15s and M16s and AK-47s, when they start getting these weapons, they are preparing for war.

[Van] I agree with you.

[Akinsanya] And if you look at it, a Black person can't even buy a weapon like that.

[Van] You're right.

[Akinsanya] We've attempted to do it several times in this country, people with no record.

You let a Black person go in a gun store and try to buy an AR-15.

He can not.

To buy a AR-15, you have to be white in this country.

I've seen- I've...

I've had people try it.

[Van] ...going to the gun stores, uh, there again.

Uh, by the time I got to 18, I could buy, you know, a rifle legally, still not a... a handgun.

But, uh, going in, and we were so, uh, naive, not even realizing that, uh, the guy behind the counter was an off-duty cop.

[Akinsanya] That's right.

So, you know, they're feeding information about, oh, yeah- And we didn't even bother to, uh, get into civilian clothes.

We might still be in there with our berets on, buttons and all that.

And I remember down in San Leandro, uh, we had just bought some guns.

We drove away.

We... we used to call it getting "vamped on," you know, two or three police cars around the corner, you know, stopped us and, you know, wanted to search the car and all that kind of stuff and everything.

And I'm like, "Look, you know what we got in there.

Here's the receipt."

And the sergeant, you know, uh, just told the high-strung cop, "Hey, just let 'em go."

You know?

So, yeah, you're... you're... you're right.

But as you know, those were our weapons of choice back in the day because that's what was out there, the AR-15s and that sort of thing.

And I agree with you.

[Scott] And... and we are... we are going to have to leave it there, gentlemen.

Uh, fascinating, fascinating history, fascinating perspective.

And thank you both, uh, for sharing your, uh, your perspectives and your journeys with us.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guests and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.