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A lot of people dream of being a firefighter, but the reality of the job can take an emotional toll.

That's the subject of a new documentary produced by the Tacoma Fire Department called The Call We Carry.

Tonight, we sit down with Tacoma Fire and the film's producers to talk about the impact PTSD has on many of those in the fire service.

That's next on Northwest.

Now.

We tend to think about the heroic aspects of firefighting, saving people and animals, helping people get out of sticky situations of all kinds, and then back to safety.

But some cars go sideways, people die.

And the tragic results of accidents and disasters can form images in a person's mind that are hard to cope with.

The results can be flashbacks, nightmares, relationship problems and substance abuse all the very same things we associate with PTSD and combat veterans and police.

But recognizing symptoms is hard sometimes, and that's one of the reasons the Tacoma Fire Department produced an hour long documentary called The Call We Carry.

Just over 34 years, I've seen a lot of things.

We only investigate major fires, fatalities or high dollar or loss or arson.

Criminal in nature.

Serial arsonists in Tacoma increases in assaults, robberies and arson.

Every call, there's some level of trouble.

It's rewarding work, but it's not good work.

The screams and the smells, we live through that over and over again.

That's continued repetitive trauma.

Firefighters are for good at anything they can wear a smile when I'm at work and do my job.

But I also is going to kill myself.

Over 37% of first responders meet clinical diagnosis for PTSD.

That's astounding.

You're not just a firefighter.

You're a dad, a mom, brother, a sister.

The sheer volume of things that you see.

It can have an effect.

They're going to take a toll.

I felt like there was some sort of a stigma attached.

The fear of appearing weak.

You got a front row seat to a human tragedy.

Self care is not an option in this line of work.

It has to be this way.

When we're out number in the line of duty.

Does this line running start open on people's eyes?

Where we got to know about this?

Joining us now are Tacoma Fire Department chief Tory Green and filmmaker and Tacoma firefighter Cody Shay.

Tori and Cody, good to have you both at Northwest.

Now here to talk a little bit about this film.

Chief, I think the first question is for you.

Having a filmmaker get all up in your business when it comes to being an administrator and having a department you're trying to run, it's like having the cameras into the locker room, you know, on an NFL team, it can be intrusive.

People get very self-conscious, you know, you want them to focus on their jobs.

How did how did you manage that and what made you say, you know something, it's worth it?

Yeah, that's I never thought of it that way.

First of all, I, I don't know that it necessarily happened that way.

It felt a lot more organic than that.

It was brought to me as a as an issue that was growing within the department.

And so a request was made to make a short video about it.

I supported that.

We we knew Cody had the skill set to do that and put him on task to do that work.

And he's the one who came back and says, hey, this is bigger than 5 minutes.

And and so it turned into about an hour and ten minute video that we think is going to change people's lives.

Same question, but flipped on its head for you.

Cody is the filmmaker.

It's tough for management to have somebody come in and get in their business.

It's also hard to do work when management is looking over your shoulder, and I've had a few of those experiences in my life.

Did you get to make the film you wanted to make or in a way you're kind of looking, looking over at the administration.

How did you find that?

I can honestly say I didn't make the film I wanted to make and, you know, I've told people before the film kind of made itself and it really did.

And it was an organic process that started small.

And as things went on, it just evolved into what it became.

That is so true.

The best work that you do sometimes almost does kind of shoot itself.

Of course nothing does shoot it, but you can just see it and feel it coming together and it's like, Oh, wow.

I mean, this is literally falling together because it is such a cohesive story.

And the contents there, the materials there.

Did you have that sense when you're shooting this like, oh my gosh, I mean, I'm getting gold and this thing's going to cut itself?

I definitely had those moments.

There was a couple of interviews that I did where I came home just silenced you.

I, I really had to take in what I was hearing and just the fact that it was so honest and that it was on camera and that it was captured wasn't just a conversation between me and you.

It was something that could be timeless.

And I knew there was something special there.

Yeah.

Chief, I want to ask you this question.

And Cody, you too.

Seems to me there are several different audiences for this.

There's there's the public.

There's firefighters.

How do you how do you view the audiences for this?

Who should see it?

And and how do it how does that break down in your mind?

Yeah.

So we originally set out for this to be an internal video just for the Tacoma Fire Department.

And so once we saw the finished product, it was immediately apparent to me that this was bigger than Tacoma Fire Department.

It was bigger than the fire service.

It really is.

It's obviously intentionally targeted towards people who work in the fire and fire departments across around the world, quite frankly.

But it really addresses first responders of any type people who see or hear, you know, the the emergent distress of individuals.

So whether that's firefighters, police officers, dispatchers.

It really speaks to those audiences.

But I think, quite frankly, the messaging around PTSD, the messaging around potential suicide, it speaks to everyone, whether you're people in the military background or the average person in the community who's who's struggled with that.

And so I think it really, again, surprisingly became a project that turned into something that was much bigger than we ever set out.

That was a great encapsulation of who I think the audiences are.

Cody, I'd ask you to go a step further.

Is there some degree of validation that goes along with this?

I often find you can tell somebody something, but if they see a film, somebody else made it.

Now all of a sudden it's true.

Now it's true in my family.

Oh, my friend is too, you know.

He is telling me straight.

Is there a validation piece where people maybe know in their heads that PTSD is an issue, but now they see it, hear it and maybe feel it a little more?

I think so.

I think seeing seeing it in a film capacity, something that everyone can watch, kind of puts it more into perspective versus individual experiences.

Many of us have them, but seeing so many say the same stories that people can relate to.

You know, I tell people, it doesn't matter who you are.

You can see a part of yourself in this film through the people that we interviewed.

You're going to relate to somebody in some aspect of it.

So I think the validation is there because of that.

Mm hmm.

You mentioned that there are you know, it's it's completed.

I know it debuted in Tacoma recently, and this audience has seen it.

Do either one of you both?

Both are either one of you can speak to this.

Is there a plan going forward for getting it out there for for pushing it out beyond the audience?

Because you said once you looked at it, you're like doing this because a lot of folks could benefit.

What's that plan?

How does that look?

Yeah, so so currently it's available on YouTube and so anyone can just click the link and go see it.

We've got over 60,000 views so far and we initially showed it.

Do some private viewings at the Blumhouse here in Tacoma and then did some public viewings.

The union did some public viewings at the same venue, and then several of the fire departments around us asked for it so they could do their own internal viewings of it with their firefighters.

And we're getting reached out to people from across the nation to to do something similar.

It's more of it's more than just seeing the film.

It's hearing this conversation.

It's, you know, how how did you get there?

What did you do?

How can we be better?

Those kinds of things.

So lots of showings with panel discussions afterwards.

Yeah, I would say, Cody, the dream for every filmmaker's, their film goes viral.

So you can sit back.

You're not worried about the distribution because departments start wanting it, families start wanting it.

Did you did you set out?

Was there a moment you said this is going to go viral or were you thinking, I'm just I'm just doing this for my department and hopes, hope.

Few people watch it.

I mean, when did when did you realize you kind of had a hold of something here maybe?

I think I think it really kind of hit me when the trailer went on for, quite frankly, viral on its own and saw the interest and how many people were reaching out.

And then that was validation to me that, okay, this is a topic that is seldom discussed and something that's important that people obviously want discussed.

So I, I think then it started hitting me.

It's all still kind of hitting me right now.

So yeah, well with you walk up and get an award for something that'll that'll be a different experience.

Do you plan on entering and into some things?

I had actually won its first award yesterday.

Did it okay?

Yes.

What was that associated with?

It won best first time filmmaker at the California Indie Film Festival.

All right.

It was pretty nice accomplishment.

Yeah.

Good for you.

Congratulations.

I know the film circuit filling out the forms and paying the fees.

It's a he's going to need PTO for that, by the way, because it is such a huge job.

I'll advocate for you on that because I know what a massive pile of paperwork is there.

Let's talk a little bit about PTSD, which is obviously the embedded theme in this movie.

It's sort of cliche, Chief.

People talk about having PTSD all the time.

It's almost kind of like hell.

You once had PTSD, but it it it is real for those professions who deal with a lot of trauma.

Talk a little bit about what that trauma is in the fire service.

I think a lot of us imagine, you know, rescuing we have these grand visions, rescuing people from the fire and saving the pad and getting people out of the burning car.

But there's a lot of stuff that goes sideways, right?

Yeah.

Well, I would argue everything that we go through has gone sideways.

That's true.

It's the reason we were called.

And so, you know what people don't think much about when they think about the fire department or or public safety in general is that we respond to everybody in the communities worst day or worst event.

And so you see things that you know are bad.

We rarely see anything that's good.

The things that we see are bad.

But sometimes you see things that are horrendous and sometimes even just the normal typical bad hits you different because of what's going on in your own life or your own experiences.

And so, you know, I think anybody who sees the kinds of things that we see over and over and over again, it's going to impact you at some point.

Cody, what were your subjects telling you about how how does this present how did they come to the idea or have somebody say, Hey, man, I think you need some help?

What were how did it present?

And people I think the common theme of everyone's story was that it crept up on them.

It hit them when it was too late, before they realized that they even had an issue going on or a certain thing affected them a certain way.

And those are those ways are exhibited through behaviors.

You know, how your your approaching your your significant other how you're dealing with your kids.

You know, these things.

It's road rage, it's attitudes.

It's things manifest themselves in strange ways that a lot of people that I talked to didn't really realize it was happening until someone had the courage to actually call them on it and see how they were actually doing.

And then obviously we had to people had to face their own demons and admit when things bothered them.

Is there a certain piece of this, particularly with the fire service or the police or military?

I would think all maybe have this in common where you if you're a person who's seen a lot, you're trying to tough it out for a while.

In other words, instead of instead of doing this and realizing you have a problem and work it out, you're toughing it out, toughing out, toughing it out.

You're going to walk it off and then kaboom.

Is that is that a reality with the culture in the fire service, Chief?

I do.

I think that's I think that's probably a really great graphic of of how it happens for most.

I also think that, you know, everybody's different, right?

So everybody has different belief systems, support systems, things that they do to work through what they see.

And so for some people, they can go for a 30 year career and manage it and some people can't.

And I think that's really at the heart of it.

And for the folks who don't have that support system that helps them cope with it, I think I think it happens exactly as you just described.

It's something that you are supported by and you feel supported by until you realize that there's no more support.

Is there a personality piece at play here, too?

And Cody, feel free to chime in on this.

Um, in a lot of jobs, there's always kind of that professional distance.

And if you're looking at something through the viewfinder, you know, a tragedy, you're looking at it through your camera.

It's a different experience than go and having hands on or being a very empathy.

You can be empathetic, but maybe you're you're in job mode as opposed to empathy mode.

Do different people kind of roll differently through that, do you think?

In some ways, I think so.

I think there is a stigma that's existed in the fire service for decades or even centuries that we are the ones that need to appear to be strong.

And therefore when things bother us, we can't really show it.

So suck it up Buttercup with Yeah, exactly.

And that mentality can go beyond just the scene and doing your job.

It can translate back to the firehouse, it can translate back to your family.

And then it becomes this cycle of pushing things down and suppressing your feelings without actually acknowledging them for one, and then two, maybe discussing them a little further and, you know, getting it off your chest.

And that's such a great point you make when you're suppressing and doing that.

You think of pressure, which makes me circle back to some of your comments about things like road rage or spousal domestic situations.

Some of the bullet points that I wrote down here with signs of this re-experience avoidance, negativity, hyper reactivity or vigilance.

And that is that's kind of that that that pressure building up and that maybe denial of needing the help and whatnot.

So, Chief, how do you you can't go around, you know, all day at roll call, say, hey, got PTSD.

Hey, how are you doing?

You know, you look you're looking to kick a puppy, right?

You can't be asking that at roll call.

So how are you proactive without being a source of disease?

Don't talk to the chief because he's going to bug me about my problems, you know?

So how do you do that?

I think I think it starts with with the chiefs.

I think it starts with creating a culture where people feel comfortable coming forward and saying, I need help, you know, and I think you have to not only put programs in place and people in place, but you have to be vulnerable yourself and acknowledge, you know, your own weaknesses and where you where you struggle yourself.

And I think I think I've really personally tried to do that.

I think it's created a culture within it's called fire department, where I think people feel at least a little bit more comfortable knowing that if they want help, they can they can reach out and do that without the kind of shame that they might have felt previously or from other experiences.

And so I think that's the key, is just being creating an environment where people feel free to say, I'm not doing okay.

And I think that's that relates to that piece.

I was talking to you about, Cody, that validation piece where well, there Hector's a training film about this.

I'm probably okay to go in and talk talk with somebody.

Has there been a change?

Has anybody took you aside and said, hey, man, I, you know, I watched this and I went and got some help and I realized I needed some.

Do you think there's been that kind of change in people?

I think every screening we've had, someone has personally reached out and actually said right then and there that I'm not doing okay.

So this film has already directly impacted people's mental health, whether letting them realize maybe some behaviors or instances in their own life that's happening that they weren't actually noticing until they saw it on film.

But we're seeing positive changes in that aspect of more people coming forward and admitting that something's bothering them.

Yeah, I just got to be very rewarding.

I know it is, is as a journalist, I would think as a filmmaker too, when people came come and say, Hey, I took action as a result of this or something happened, or it changed, changed me.

What's what's that like?

To be honest, it's a bit overwhelming at times.

You know, I'm not a mental health counselor.

I'm a filmmaker.

I'm also a firefighter.

I work alongside these these amazing men and women.

And we do our jobs every day together.

And it's a it's an enormous responsibility, too.

But there's also a bit of guilt to knowing that maybe what I made might have elicited some emotions out of somebody.

You know, that's not an easy thing to necessarily deal with.

But doing my best and I believe in the overall message of the project and I'm seeing the the work that we've all put into it actually do some good so that that makes me sleep at night.

Yeah.

Good.

Well, congratulations.

It's a that's a great feeling to have about your work product.

Chief, I want to talk to you about training as well.

A lot of the guys who came up in the fire service of certain age kind of had that culture of the Suck It Up Buttercup piece.

We here at Bates Technical College, which happens to be our licensee, we got a big fire training program.

Is this something, do you think, that filters down and floats down into the curriculum and fire training?

Is this a is this a film that young people should watch and think?

Would it make them not want to do it?

Or no, would that help them become more aware?

I guess I can argue both sides of that.

What are your thoughts about that?

Yeah, we've actually already started showing this film to our recruits at the Academy because we want them to know what the impacts of this work are.

And we've actually been contemplating a way to not only show it to our recruits, but also to their significant others.

Because part of the problem, I think, is that for many of our firefighters is that when they struggle, they don't know who to talk to even when they go home to their closest.

The person is supposed to be closest to them.

And so if that person is at least aware of what the the potential is of what's going on with them, is that then they can be a little bit more responsive, a little bit more helpful, a little bit more supportive in a way that maybe that person gets help before it's too late.

Do you think the new generation is resistant?

Is there a change in generations?

Yeah, I think people I think the I honestly I will tell you, in my experience, since this film has come out, I've talked to a lot of the older generation and they have they have just opened up because of the film.

And so to answer your question, yes, I think the current generation is far more open to this.

They're far more aware of the importance of finding that balance in the work that you do in your own personal life.

But I also think that because we've opened the door, a lot of the older generation folks are walking through it.

Mhm.

So Shane, you've had this amazing experience where you've had a film go viral that's changing people's lives.

They tell you about it.

So I know you're going to be asking them for more time to make your next film just in case he hasn't yet.

It's coming up for a while.

Yeah, it was a lot of work.

Yes, yeah.

Additional work at it.

Did you get were you on the job when you were doing this?

I was doing this in some way, shape or form every day.

Okay.

Put some kind of time into it every day for almost a year.

Yeah.

What do you think?

What do you think's next?

What does there need to be a follow on to this?

There very well, maybe you know, I think what we accomplished from this is starting the conversation.

I don't think we necessarily solved an issue here, but I think we brought to light an issue through here.

So if that opens a dialog or gets us going down the right path, then, you know, it did a really good job doing that.

Chief, it must be odd for you to be looking at your manpower.

You know, we got Pumper Truck guys, a filmmaker, you know.

Oh, he needs time to do this.

But I guess, I mean, think of the results.

It makes sense.

Do you think you'll do you think this is.

I wouldn't say it's a position, but is this something you will continue to pursue?

Do you think mental health counseling could be part of your staff at some point?

I mean, will this change your the chess game you play on the board every day, putting people in the right spots?

Yeah, that's a great question.

We've we've actually already plan in the next biennial budget to include a mental health professional on our contracted through our for services through the biennial budget.

And so yeah, we are in fact bringing those resources in and trying to be, to your point, proactive in the way that we address this.

Because if we can get ahead of it and help people recognize that there are available resources, that this is what you should expect their available resources, then we won't get to the endgame where people are starting to become alcoholics or considering suicide as a solution to the things that they're seeing.

I was talking to you about the chessboard piece, so I don't mean this to be an awkward question, but to me, my impression of the fire service is there was always 100 applicants for ten openings.

Has that changed a little bit with the way we're having difficulty with the labor force?

Are you are you struggling to get shifts filled?

Is that happened to the fire service?

And are you still pretty much immune from that?

And if so, I'm wondering, does overtime time and long shifts play a role in any of this, as you do play with that chessboard?

Answer another great question.

So we are not seeing the same we are seeing a decrease in applicants.

But but to your question, it wasn't it wasn't a hundred.

It was 1000 to 10.

Right.

And so we're down to maybe 800 to 10.

But but still, we are seeing a decrease.

But for us in particular in our department, we have, in fact, been seeing a lot more overtime.

We're trying to do provide an additional service that we didn't provide before.

And we tried to do it before we had all the people in place.

And so people have been working a lot of overtime.

I absolutely think that that contributes to the more you do it, the more you see, the more risk you're at and the tighter you are.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

Stress and tiredness, all the all those there's a synergistic effect there, I would assume, on mental health.

Yeah.

And I would also add one of the big components is that the work has changed.

And so it used to be we responded to people who had real emergencies, who called 911.

We have become across the the nation, the fire service has become much more of a primary care provider for people who don't have other options.

And so we're seeing people who really don't have nine on one emergencies but are calling 911 because they don't have anywhere else to turn.

And that's not even counting for all the homeless encampments that were responding.

Yeah.

And so yeah.

So yeah.

The work has changed in the, the value that you used to get from the work of filling fulfilled and like you really did something that helps someone you question because am I actually helping in this in this situation so that compounded with additional work and better with additional hours can compound it with the time being tired.

Absolutely.

Can just, you know, last 45 seconds here, Cody, if somebody wants to see this film, get involved, find it.

What are the steps they can take?

What do they do?

The easiest thing they can do is go to the call.

We, CARICOM, and they'll find links to resources list of cast and of course links to the film and trailer and some information and curriculum on there as well for families and whatnot.

Right there is okay, great.

All right, Chief Cody, thanks so much for coming on Northwest now.

Good to have you in.

I think a very important topic and I recommend everybody take a look at that film.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Firefighting is like many jobs.

We tend to look at the glory, but rarely at the sacrifice.

The bottom line, media tools like the call we carry play an important role in educating firefighters to understand what they might be feeling, and for the public to get a better understanding of what the job really is.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking to watch this program again or to share it with others.

Northwest now can be found on the Web activity, dawg, and be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter at Northwest.

Now, a Streamable podcast of this program is available under the Northwest Now tab at KBTC dot org and on Apple Podcasts by searching Northwest.

Now that is going to do it for this edition of Northwest Now and till next time.

I'm Tom Lewis, and thanks for watching.

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