Funding for COLORES was provided in part by: Frederick Hammersley Fund, New Mexico PBS Great Southwestern Arts & Education Endowment Fund, and the Nellita E. Walker Fund for KNME-TV at the Albuquerque Community Foundation… …New Mexico Arts, a division of the Department of Cultural Affairs, and by the National Endowment for the Arts… and Viewers Like You.

THIS TIME, ON COLORES!

ENRIQUE LAMADRID AND LAURA HARRIS SHARE THE LITTLE-KNOWN HISTORY OF THE COMANCHE EMPIRE IN NEW MEXICO.

IT’S ALL AHEAD ON COLORES!

>>Faith Perez: How did the Comanches come to be here in New Mexico?

>>Enrique Lamadrid: They basically came down from the Great Basin.

Uh, they're, uh, Shoshonean people.

Uh, they speak a language that, that is closely related to the Ute language, to the Shoshone language.

And they followed the river down.

They came through the Taos Gorge.

>>Faith Perez: How did they get their name, Comanche?

>>Laura Harris: It actually comes from a Ute word, uh, that we, we think it's a Ute word that, uh, probably meant, uh, one who never gives up fighting, one who always wants to fight <laugh>.

But our word, our name for ourself is Numunu, and that means the people.

>>Faith Perez: What led up to the signing of the Peace Treaty in 1786 between Comanches and the new Mexican settlers?

>>Laura Harris: Well, I think it, it came about because, uh, the Spanish couldn't expand.

Albuquerque in particular was just pretty much an embattled township, and the Comanches constantly harassed them so that they really couldn't work in the fields.

Their homes had to be very defensive.

Comanches had a lot of influence, mostly militarily, um, but also just in kind of how New Mexico was shaped and, and how it, uh, uh, grew as a Spanish colony >>Enrique Lamadrid: For all purposes.

Comanches were in charge of New Mexico.

They had control of, of New Mexico.

They had firearms.

People here had, uh, really ancient guns that didn't hardly even work.

And Comanche's had, uh, modern firearms.

So people here defended themselves with lances and bows and arrows.

So it's the reverse of Hollywood.

>>Laura Harris: We've got most of our firearms from the French during the height of the Comanche Empire.

Uh, we, we went as far east as Louisiana in the, in the French territory.

And, uh, as far west, of course, Santa Fe, Taos, uh, we went to traded horses all the way up through Montana.

And, uh, we, we traded Buffalo robes all the way down into Zacatecas, uh, Mexico.

So, um, it was a very large expanse that Comanches controlled, and they, they managed to, um, play the Spanish and the French off of each other.

So historians, for a long time always said we were these unorganized bands, small family group bands.

Uh, and that's how we were organized.

Uh, but they said that we never came together.

We didn't, uh, strategize together.

But that's not true.

It can't be true.

Um, because we really, uh, uh, really were a geopolitical player in the Southwest because of our relationship, both with the French and the Spanish.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: It got so bad, uh, cuz retaliation doesn't work.

There was one governor that really failed at that, uh, Mendinueta, and he would send expeditions out and they would kill 400 Comanches and come back with a thousand horses.

And then, uh, just a few years after that, the Comanches would, uh, show up in this valley.

And in 1775, they attacked Sandia Pueblo, which was fortified.

They couldn't get in.

They took off with the entire horse herd.

And 33 really angry guys from Sandia went after them.

And of course, they were ambushed, and every single one of them was killed.

They hit Isleta, they hit Albuquerque.

They got the entire horse herd of Albuquerque.

Uh, Tome took some really big hits.

Uh, and at, at one point, um, in 1777, the, uh, everybody that was in town, a lot of people went up to Isleta to, uh, to a little, uh, uh, farmer's market, uh, kind of thing.

And everybody that was in town was killed.

So they brought in, uh, <inaudible>.

They brought in a new governor that said, all this retaliation stuff is not gonna work.

We gotta do diplomacy.

We can never defeat each other.

They can't defeat us.

We can't defeat them.

Mm- hmm.

<affirmative>.

And so Anza went up after this very infamous, uh, uh, Yampadukah, uh, war leader called Cuerno Verde up north.

Uh, he, he had a, uh, uh, a headdress with a green horn on it, thus the name.

And he took, uh, he went the back way through the San Luis Valley.

He had, uh, many, uh, Pueblo warriors.

He had many Ute warriors.

They went around the north of, uh, Pike's Peak.

And they, they, uh, quite verde was coming up from raiding Taos.

And they nailed him.

And this was a great, uh, victory.

The Anza troops, uh, were just as good on horses.

Maybe not as good, but they were very good on their horses.

Anyway, he immediately, they learned from the Comanche how to be better horse people.

Right, right.

And so, negotiation, negotiation, negotiation, Comanche group coming, Comanche groups coming into Santa Fe, Anza doing diplomacy.

A major leader, uh, appeared from the, the plains to the east.

He was a Kotsoteka, the Buffalo people.

We don't know his name.

Uh, we called him Ecueracapa, leather cape.

And they negotiated in Pecos Pueblo, a treaty that made modern New Mexico possible.

February 23rd, 1786, they buried the war somewhere up on, on the grounds where Pecos Pueblo is.

There's a pit where they buried it.

They probably put old guns in there.

Um, uh, all the weapons they had, the war was, uh, was over.

And they had a trade fair to celebrate it.

>>Laura Harris: You know, New Mexico has such a rich history, so eclectic and, and amazing.

It was a crossroads of so many cultures.

And Comanches are a big part of that, that history we're not often, uh, talked about, uh, here in New Mexico.

But, you know, I first really became aware of our influence driving back and forth from Albuquerque to Oklahoma.

Mm-hmm.

And we were on our way to some family doings.

Uh, and my great grandmother, who, uh, lived into her nineties, um, and who I knew up into my teenage years, uh, she was traveling with us and we were laughing about, uh, the name Tucumcari.

And she said, oh, that's a Comanche word.

Uh, it's, it's pronounced Tuicani, that means house after dark or camp after dark, Uhhuh <affirmative>.

And so, uh, Comanche's, uh, created place names like all the Comanche canyons that are throughout New Mexico.

Um, we influenced, uh, transportation.

We influenced the military.

At one point, the Spanish military didn't have any horses.

We had, uh, a kind of a, a relationship with the Pueblos, both some Pueblos we raided and some pueblos we traded.

And those that we traded with, we had a heavy influence on their fashion.

For instance, uh, Taos queries, uh, and probably Pecos, the men wear their hair, like the plain style in a braid, wrapped in yarn.

Uh, they pluck all of their facial hair.

Uh, my great- grandfather, uh, plucked all of his facial hair, and so did the, the older, older generation of Taos.

They also wore an apron, um, the, I can't remember the male version, but the female version of aprons called the Pizaquia.

And so men also wore these aprons, uh, and wore their blankets differently.

And so unlike all the other pueblos, uh, in New Mexico, uh, Taos and Picuris, uh, men, uh, fashioned themselves out, uh, from Comanche fashion.

So there's an amazing amount of influence.

Um, you know, we raided, uh, Spanish villages and just about every very ancient Spanish village in New Mexico.

And most of the Pueblos have a Comanche dance that they perform annually.

>>Faith Perez: Wow.

Okay.

>>Laura Harris: Um, and there's a lot of different, I've heard different versions, people teasing me, um, some Pueblo friends, uh, that say that, oh, uh, we were making fun of the Comanches.

Um, some say they were honoring us.

Some say that, uh, they do the dance because it was a song and a dance given to them by the Comanches, either to be released from Capture or, um, uh, Santa Ana, I know has a story that the Comanches gifted them, their warrior society and helped train, uh, and teach them how to be, uh, strong warriors.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: That dancing happens in all of the pueblos and different, on different, uh, feast days.

And in some pueblos, uh, more frequently than other pueblos.

But all of the pueblos have it even clear out to Zuni and Hopi.

They have their version of the Comanche dance.

And in, uh, ano communities, you'll find it as well.

>>Laura Harris: Yeah, I was saying I learned a lot from my great-grandmother and great aunts.

Um, my band is akuhata, we're matrilineal.

And so I take my, uh, great- grandmother's band, but my great-grandfather was Yapatuka.

Um, and so there was a lot of, uh, our ancestors that, um, that were a part of New Mexico history.

And, uh, my father, who is a good Comanche captive, we call him, he's Scott Irish.

>>Faith Perez: Yeah.

>>Laura Harris: Um, but a good Comanche captive.

Uh, and a good Comanche husband joins his wife's family, uh, because we're matrilineal.

And, um, he took on a lot of, uh, well, he certainly took on Comanche values, Comanche worldview.

He can speak, uh, Comanche pretty good.

He knows a lot of our Comanche songs.

And he was, uh, a real student of Comanche history.

And so he would, uh, he and my mother both really, um, gave us a, a, a view of history, uh, that's not really taught in schools because of our family stories.

and, uh, taking captives was, uh, a really important tradition for Comanches.

We were nomadic, we traveled in small family groups, and because we were nomadic and because of our diet, uh, we had a really low birth rate.

And, um, we were always needing to freshen up our genetics.

Mm-hmm.

<affirmative>.

So we started a tradition of, of taking captives.

Now, these didn't, uh, weren't slaves.

They became members of the Comanche Nation, uh, and held all full rights as a Comanche citizen.

Um, my, uh, great grandfather's father, Holway, his original name was, uh, Sabino Ramirez.

And he was taken probably around El Paso, uh, when he was about eight years old.

And I remember my great aunts, um, Virginia Casanoy and, and others saying that, uh, they asked him, they said, grandpa, grandpa, when he was older, we, we could go down to, you know, uh, Mexico and we could find your family.

And he said, no, they're not my family.

I, I'm Comanche.

So my great-grandmother's, uh, uh, mother or grandmother, was, uh, her name was Maria, and they pronounced it Mareha.

And, uh, she was fluent in Spanish.

She had, uh, red hair and green eyes.

Um, and so that's all a part of, of New Mexico history.

Um, but, uh, they became family members, but then the Spanish, uh, began to pay for them, pay for our captives, European captives.

And so we got the empire, got a little bit into, uh, uh, human trafficking , so that we would capture Europeans specifically to sell, uh, to the Spanish in Santa Fe.

The Spanish, uh, mostly enslaved those, uh, former captives.

The Pueblos, uh, because they weren't Pueblo, uh, didn't take them in.

Some were native, some were Europeans.

The natives were enslaved.

And then, uh, of course, the, uh, Genizaro, uh, these former captives, uh, became buffer zones for the Spanish government.

Yeah.

Uh, in order to keep the Comanches, uh, uh, outside of, uh, colonial boundaries, >>Enrique Lamadrid: The most valuable trade, uh, item was, uh, a human being and horses very valuable.

Human beings, even more valuable.

And the, the Spanish, it's easy to say the Spanish are responsible for the slave trade as it emerged.

Uh, there were big minds, big silver mines down in northern Mexico that depended on slave labor in the first, in the first, uh, decades of their existence.

And, and so the, the Comanche said, oh, you, you want to, we'll, we'll, we'll get some Apaches for you.

And they were mostly Apaches that got sent down as slaves, uh, to work in the mines.

And the, the, the lifespan of a slave minor down there was, was less than a year in most cases.

It, it was such a terrible work.

And the Spanish figured it out later.

They said, uh, let anybody come in mine and share in the prophets and, and take out some of the pay dirt themselves, uh, uh, to work with.

It's a kind of gleaning system that, that finally took over.

The slavery system was not working.

But, uh, but, but the Spanish mines started that.

>>Laura Harris: For a while there, the Comanche Empire really controlled all aspects of New Mexico life for the New Mexican settlers and for some of the Pueblos.

Um, we traded with Taos and Pecos and, and a few other, uh, uh, pueblos, mostly for food.

Uh, we, you know, we didn't grow food.

we were too busy running up and down the planes.

Yeah.

Um, and so, uh, corn and beans, uh, were a very important, uh, part of our diet.

Um, but we, we had to get them through trade or raiding.

>>Faith Perez: So, Comanches, did they control a lot of the trade then in New Mexico?

>>Laura Harris: Yes.

Mostly because they, they controlled the trade routes and, and had the military power to, to decide who got to go where.

<laugh>.

Uh, and who would travel between Albuquerque and, and Santa Fe, for instance?

Uh, we pretty much cut off Albuquerque, and it couldn't grow much bigger than Old Town, uh, because the Comanches would constantly harass the settlers.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: It ran out of food because, uh, it was so dangerous to go out and, um, and take care of the, of the, uh, of the fields.

This happened all over.

People went hungry.

Um, and in, in Pecos Pueblo, uh, they were so besieged that they started, uh, toasting old shoes and making, uh, like chicharrones out of, um, every bit of leather they had.

They had nothing to eat.

And so this had to, this had to end.

I should mention, we mentioned the Genizaros as well, a significant portion of the Genizaros are Comanche kids coming in and Comanche women.

The, the guys, uh, were mostly killed.

Uh, adult males were, were mostly killed on both sides.

And women and children were constantly going in both directions.

And so that Comanchito dance that we mentioned, uh, that you can, that you can see in this area, in this valley, um, is to honor all of those captives, all those little Comanche kids that became part of our, uh, society here.

And, and the little, uh, New Mexican kids who became part of their society.

It's just, uh, it's just part of this equation.

And captives, uh, are very, very valuable, powerful people.

They know about the other culture.

And, uh, there's not enough that can be said, uh, about them.

People love kind of shunning the, the, the topic, cuz it's a difficult topic.

But, uh, if you look, uh, uh, from the perspective of, of the Comanches themselves, they, they honor these captives that, that they adopted.

And the captives, the Apache's captives, they, they, they sold of course.

And, but they incorporated, they incorporated them into their families because, uh, they weren't making enough, uh, Comanchitos themselves.

Uh, horses are dangerous.

Uh, a lot of young men would get killed, you know, and, and so it's really, it's like a movement.

It's the, some of the first American travelers that, that came to big Comanche encampments heard, uh, four or five languages being spoken.

Spanish being one of 'em, Numunu being another one and various tribal groups were absorbed by Comanches, cause uh, they had the economy.

They said, uh, uh, we got a lot of horses.

Let's take care of 'em.

We got a lot of, uh, tanning work.

There's work for everybody.

So they were, it's a, it's a, it's a multicultural thing.

It's not like a, uh, it, it's like a movement.

>>Faith Perez: Mm-hmm.

>>Laura Harris: And the, um, the, well, most Plains tribes, their economy was based on, on buffalo hunting.

Um, for the Comanches, we did buffalo hunt, but I think our main economy was really, uh, trade.

We went all the way down to Zacatecas, Mexico, and then we also went as far north as Montana because, uh, some of those early horse breeds didn't last those northern winters very well.

So every spring they needed new horses.

Mm-hmm.

And so we provided them.

In fact, my, um, my great-grandfather named me, gave him me my Indian name, my Comanche name, um, which is Saee.

Um, and when asked, he, he, he died the same year I was born, but saw me as a baby and, and named me.

And my family asked, well, what, what does that mean?

And he said, it's Crow.

And the family always assumed that the word meant Crow.

Um, but it turns out that it's not a Comanche word at all.

It is, it is probably a Crow word.

I have yet to, to go up and, and meet with my crow relatives and, and find out what the, the meaning of the word is.

Um, but that was his mother, uh, was crow, or she was a crow captive, and that was her name.

And, uh, Comanches began to break with the traditions around the 1930s, um, of, uh, using, um, the name of someone who had passed away.

You never said their name again.

Uh, but Comanches wanted to remember these, these pivotal ancestors, uh, and people were important to them.

And remember that history.

So we began, um, naming people after, after our ancestors so that we could, uh, keep those stories.

>>Faith Perez: So in 1841, Comanches helped, uh, defend New Mexico from the Texans.

Can you tell me about why they decided to do that?

>>Enrique Lamadrid: Yeah.

They, they had a, the Anglo Texans had a big meeting in San Antonio.

And I, I was walking by the river one day and I found a spot, I found a plaque that this is where the council house was.

And they called a big meeting, um, the Anglo Texans and, and brought in all of the local, uh, Comanche leaders, uh, to this big meeting.

And they were not adverse to that cause they would talk to the Spanish.

Uh, but they got 'em all in one room, and then they killed all of them.

They just ruined it for the next >>Laura Harris: The council house massacre.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: The council house massacre.

They, they, they killed all of these leaders, some of them, uh, spiritual leaders too.

And, um, the Comanches never forgave 'em.

They were enemies of the Texans and friends with, of the New Mexicans at this time.

And, and so they followed them.

They sent word to Santa Fe.

They said, there's an army coming up here, but don't worry, we're giving them hell all the way up.

They were stealing their horses.

They were, they were, uh, uh, uh, kidnapping soldiers at night.

Uh, they were, uh, they were killing as many of 'em as they could.

And they, they were making fun of 'em on the way.

And they were saying, who are these Spanish speaking Indians?

They, they, they kind of knew, but they, um, the entire army was captured with without a shot, basically.

They were so, uh, run down.

Mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, uh, by, by the Comanches mostly.

>>Laura Harris: Our greatest, uh, enemy were the Texas Rangers.

We have a lot of family stories Yeah.

About evading the Texas Rangers.

Um, and that was probably more, uh, in the 1800's, uh, later when we fought with the, with the Texans.

Um, my great grandfather's father Holway, um, fought in the battle of Adobe walls, which is just north of Amarillo.

Um, and so we have a lot of, uh, interaction with Texas and it's never been very friendly <laugh> Yeah.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: Clear up into almost modern times, in fact.

>>Laura Harris: During the Comanche Empire, we had stories that, um, once you entered into trade with someone, they became your relatives.

You know, every, everybody is related and, uh, Comanche's believe that we're related to all human beings, all things, uh, all matter and things that people would think are inanimate objects.

Um, but, uh, if we entered into trade, then you were close kin, uh, and, and you were family And if you didn't act like family or good hosts and have hospitality, then the comanches could turn on you and, and then begin to raid you and instead of trading with you.

Oh, we'd very high standards <laugh> for family behavior.

>>Faith Perez: <laugh>.

Yeah.

>>Laura Harris: And the punishments were pretty brutal.

Yeah.

But, you know, we've been described as these really war-like people that that's all we wanted to do was kill and torture and rape and pillage.

Um, uh, uh, but that's the furthest from the truth.

Mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, uh, we were people, uh, maintaining our territory.

Mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, uh, we were, did engage in empire building and, uh, uh, controlling areas.

Uh, but we did that as these are, this is our homeland and, and we're defending it.

>>Enrique Lamadrid: These stories are important to get out there when people, when people see that there's a major boulevard called Comanche Boulevard in, in Albuquerque.

uh, maybe they'll, uh, take pause to reflect on, on all of this.

And maybe some of these stories will be, will be, will continue to be told.

>>Laura Harris: We don't learn American history from the textbooks and in school we're taught about Europeans coming to the Americas.

And, and that's very different.

And so I think it's important for us to, to research it, to understand it, and to share this rich history that the, the many different peoples, um, that, that had an influence here in New Mexico and that came to New Mexico for all different sorts of reasons.

Um, I think it's important for us as new Mexicans, um, uh, to understand that history and to, and to promote it.

>>Faith Perez: I'm glad that you are here helping us educate our viewers on this fascinating history.

Thank you so much for sharing.

I really appreciate it.

>>Laura Harris: Thank you.

It's an honor to be on Colores .

>>Faith Perez: Thank you.

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“UNTIL NEXT WEEK, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.” Funding for COLORES was provided in part by: Frederick Hammersley Fund, New Mexico PBS Great Southwestern Arts & Education Endowment Fund, and the Nellita E. Walker Fund for KNME-TV at the Albuquerque Community Foundation… …New Mexico Arts, a division of the Department of Cultural Affairs, and by the National Endowment for the Arts… and Viewers Like You.