[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - Talking about the future of higher education with someone who knows higher ed better than most, Dr. Dale Caldwell, President of the Centenary University.

Good to see you, my friend.

- Good to see you again, Steve.

Thanks for having me.

- Hey, listen, do you mind if I do this?

Our partners at NJBIZ, our media partners put out 50 top leaders in education.

Look at who's in the top 10.

What number is that?

Nine.

You're in the top 10 of top education.

- I'm honored.

- Go ahead.

- No, man, I'm honored.

There's so many incredible people.

It's really a blessing to be there.

So it was fantastic.

- Yeah, I'm not gonna make a big deal that I made the list either, 'cause I don't like the attention.

- Well, you are a superstar.

Everybody knows you're a superstar.

So.

- Hey, Dale, I'm not fishing for a compliment, but I'll take it.

(Dale laughs) Hey, listen- - It's a fact, man.

It's a fact.

(hands clapping) (Dale laughs) - Let's do, I gotta do this.

Another publication, not NJBIZ, but the New York Times, the Future of Higher Education.

I know, Dale, and I didn't even talk about this, but we share a mind sometimes.

A brain.

He read this.

This article- - I have it right here.

Yeah, I have it right here.

(laughs) - I'm reading it again last night saying, how many people across the country are saying higher ed doesn't have the value that it used to have.

The college, the student debt that people are acquiring, and what they're making because they went to college doesn't add up anymore.

The economics are off.

College is too expensive.

"Not U."

That's what it says.

- Yes.

Yes.

- Higher ed, in danger?

Talk to us.

- Well, the reality is there are a couple things going on.

One, the middle class is disappearing.

So the relative cost of higher ed has gone up, even though the actual cost really hasn't gone up as much as people think.

But the research still shows you make well over a million dollars across your lifetime if you go to higher ed.

- So, hold on one second.

So you're saying the economics of making a million dollars more, is that, you're saying Dale, by itself makes higher ed, or college, university life warranted?

Even though we have one son at Syracuse, the other one at Fordham, not cheap, no scholarships, not crying the blues, but I'm sitting there going, "That adds up."

And we're fortunate enough to be able to do that.

Most families are not.

That's absurd, the, and I don't wanna say what the costs are.

It's crazy what those college costs are.

Go ahead.

- Yeah, no, it's very, very expensive.

But there are a couple things.

So one, innovative universities like Centenary are doing programs.

We started something, we'll talk a little later about, called the working BA.

So you can actually go ahead, work, and still get your college degree for a very affordable price.

But college also gives you intercultural competence, analytical skills, things that will help you get a better job in the future, rather than just going right to work.

- All right, try this.

The Future of Higher Education, graphic up, is also greatly impacted by the decision of the United States Supreme Court to strike down the use of race as part of the criteria that is used for high school students graduating, and others trying to get into universities, particularly prestigious universities.

What do you believe, Dr. Caldwell, the long-term implications are for, of that decision, A, and B, what are some remedies to keep the level of diversity in higher ed?

- Well, I actually wrote an article really immediately after that decision.

I was actually at the New President's Program at Harvard, about 61 other presidents, and I sent it out to them, and they said, "What we have to move to is something called life circumstances admission, LCA."

And the idea is to really look at the life circumstances, maybe it's race impacts, it may be gender, sexual orientation, poverty.

But we need to look at every single candidate to see if they have grit, if they have what it takes to succeed.

- Grit.

- It's not just the test scores.

- Describe the grit.

I'm a big fan.

You did our Lessons in Leadership show, our sister program with my colleague, Mary Gamba.

You and I talked about grit.

You and I believe in grit.

You're old school, I'm old school.

Which just sometimes means we're old, but the reality is we believe in grit.

Define it.

- It's the persistence to work through any problems ahead of you.

It's having emotional resilience, is that no matter what curve balls have been thrown at you, you're able to try to work through them, and you have a commitment to success.

And that's learned, it can be learned or it can be innate, but it's a critical component for being successful.

We wouldn't be on here, Steve, if we, if both of us didn't have grit.

It's a key to succeeding in the world.

- Also, the other key to succeeding in higher ed is collaboration, innovation partnerships.

You have a partnership, Dr. Caldwell, I want you to talk about.

Is it the Cyclones partner?

What does the Cyclone Partnership, and what does that have to do with football?

- So we actually, our mascot are the Cyclones, Sussex County College are the Skylanders.

So we call it the Sky Clones Program.

And it's an incredibly innovative, we were the first to do it, where we have now a hundred football, and basketball players from around the world who come to Sussex College, but they don't have any place to stay.

So they're staying on the Centenary campus, they're eating on the campus, they're benefiting from our social, emotional development.

And it's been an amazing way to integrate very diverse populations in this university.

So we've become a very diverse university in one of the least diverse parts of the state of New Jersey.

- Dale, the other thing about your background, as you've been in state government, you've been in the private sector, but you also have volunteered, if you will, as a board of, were you the President of the Board in New Brunswick, President of the Board of Education?

- Yeah, President of the Board of New Brunswick.

Yep, absolutely.

- Okay, so you get it from the community level as well.

Why is, shifting gears dramatically, why are New Jersey schools among the most segregated schools in the United States of America?

It is not a new issue.

It's been going on forever.

Do we, Dale, my longtime friend, choose to live separately, and send our kids to schools that we choose to send them to?

And it just winds up, they're segregated, this is all the years after the 1954 Brown versus Board of Education, separate does not mean equal, not okay.

Right?

- Right.

- I mean, what's going on in New Jersey?

- Well, I mean, the reality is that I wrote a book on influence, and people are influenced, it's not, it's influence-cism rather than racism or other things.

Is that, "I wanna be with this group."

So we're the sixth most segregated school system in the country.

Mississippi has a more diverse public school system than we do.

And so I've been president for six years of the New Brunswick Board of Education, which is 95% black and Latino.

East Brunswick is 80% white and Asian.

Those two right next to each other, in a lot of states they'd be combined, and you'd have a very, very diverse school system.

- What happens if you propose that, Mr. President?

You're the president of the board, you propose it and you say, "Let's come together."

- There are a lot of jobs that people, we hired, actually, Jordan Glatt is my VP of advancement.

Jordan, as you know, is one of the dollar a year paid czars of shared service.

That's one of those things.

It doesn't mean you have to lose your control of your local town.

You can really have some interaction- - And people, sorry for interrupting.

But part of it's economic and jobs, and sorry for interrupting, but I gotta do, is part of it that people do not, many people do not want their kids going to school with other kids who don't look like their kids?

- And the reality is that people have assumptions about groups.

They have assumptions that said, "I don't wanna be in those."

I will say a reality about New Brunswick, I love New Brunswick, but up until middle school, most of 'em, it's actually fairly diverse.

But in middle school, at the end of middle school, a lot of the white folks go to, they used to go to Catholic schools, now, they're going to other schools.

So the high school has very few white students in New Brunswick.

- Dale, I wanna thank you for joining us.

We'll continue the conversation with Dale, and that's it for this edition.

That was an awkward close.

I know, I've been doing this 30 years, you should get it right.

(Dale laughs) We'll see you next time, folks.

Thank you, doctor.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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