>>> THE DEBATE OVER DEBATES.

>>> WELCOME TO ""COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD.""

IT HAPPENS EVERY ELECTION CYCLE.

SOME WANT A LOT OF FACE TO FACE DEBATES AND OTHERS DON'T.

THIS CYCLE OVER DEBATE OVER DEBATES IS MORE POINTED.

CANDIDATES ARE DUCKING DEBATES FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

HERE IN OHIO, J.D.

VANCE AND MIKE DeWINE HAVE REFUSED TO DEBATE THEIR OPPONENTS FOR U.S. SENATE AND GOVERNOR.

THEY'VE REJECTED DEBATES.

THEY CLAIM THE COMMISSION IS NOT NEUTRAL AND THEY POINT TO LAST SPRING'S SENATE PRIMARY DEBATE ON THE GOP SIDE WHEN MODERATOR KAREN KASLER PLAYED THE ROLE OF FACT CHECKER MANY TIMES.

HERE'S ONE OF THEM.

>> THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THIS ELECTION.

5 MILLION MORE PEOPLE VOTED THAN WERE REGISTERED TO VOTE ACCORDING TO THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU.

THERE'S A PROBLEM.

WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE IT.

THE JANUARY 6th COMMISSION TO BE INVESTIGATING THAT INSTEAD OF SOME FALSE ACCUSATION OF SOME SORT OF INSURRECTION.

>> THE CLAIM MR. GIBBONS MADE HAS BEEN FACT CHECKED AND WE'RE MOVING ON.

>> NO.

>> JOSH MANDEL?

>> TO CLARIFY, WE EDITED THAT CLIP FOR LENGTH.

KAREN DID NOT INTERRUPT MIKE GIBBONS.

SHE LET HIM CONTINUE AND THEN SHE FACT CHECKED HIM.

KAREN KASLER IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

THIS SEEMS TO BE -- THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

THIS YEAR SEEMS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

>> WE'RE TRYING TO FOCUS ON THE CONVERSATION ON THE SENATE RACE AS OPPOSED TO INDIVIDUAL ORGANIZATIONS.

WHETHER THERE WILL BE DEBATES.

FUNDAMENTALLY J.D.

VANCE AND TIMM RYAN SAY THEY WANT TO DEBATE EACH OTHER.

VANCE, HIS PERFORMANCE GOT DONALD TRUMP'S ENDORSEMENT.

THIS DEBATE OVER DEBATES PERIOD OF THIS HAS KIND OF DRAGGED ON LONGER THAN YOU EXPECT.

I'M STARTING TO WONDER, EVEN THOUGH BOTH CANDIDATES SAY THEY'VE AGREED TO DEBATE OCTOBER 4 AT MIAMI UNIVERSITY.

I ASSUME IT'S GOING TO GET WORKED OUT.

I'M STARTING TO HAVE QUESTIONS.

>> MORGAN HARPER, THE DEBATE CAMPAIGN SAID IT'S NOT NEUTRAL.

THEY POINT TO THE MAN WHO RAN FOR GOVERNOR AND SHE DONATED TO TIM RYAN'S CAMPAIGN.

YOU TOOK PART IN ONE OF THESE DEBATES.

DID YOU THINK THEY WERE NEUTRAL, THE COMMISSION?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT SILLY TO CLAIM THAT BECAUSE SOMEONE EIGHT YEARS AGO OR WHATEVER RAN FOR OFFICE, THAT THEY'RE NOT CAPABLE IN THEIR CURRENT ROLE AS THE HEAD OF A NONPARTISAN ORGANIZATION TO PULL OFF A NEUTRAL DEBATE.

I THOUGHT THAT THE DEBATE WAS VERY WELL DONE, THAT THE OHIO DEBATE COMMISSION ORGANIZED.

THEY WANT TO SEE DEBATES.

IF THESE DON'T HAPPEN, THAT JUST FURTHER DEMONSTRATES THE DISCONNECT BETWEEN OUR POLITICS AND WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR.

>> JOE, 80% SAY THEY WANT TO SEE DEBATES.

80% DON'T WATCH THEM.

HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT DOES THIS HAVE?

>> IT'S HARD TO TELL.

THE THING IS, I NEED TO DEFEND KAREN FIRST OF ALL.

ALL OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE PUT OUT OF THE DEBATES CAME FROM THE AUDIENCE.

>> NOT THAT AUDIENCE.

>> THEY WERE SUBMITTED AND SHE KIND OF PUT THEM TOGETHER IN THE LIST THAT MADE SENSE.

AND ALSO, THE DEBATE COMMISSION, THE DIRECTOR OF THE DEBATE COMMISSION, PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND AND ADDRESS THIS TO THE DEBATE COMMISSION.

WE'RE AN EVENT ORGANIZER.

SHE'S NOT TELLING THEM WHAT QUESTIONS TO ASK, THAT KIND OF THING.

SO IT'S KIND OF DISINGENUOUS IN SOME WAY TO SAY THAT THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

WHO KNOWS, THESE DEBATES BACK TO WHAT YOU ASKED ME, WHO KNOWS HOW THIS WILL PLAY NOT HAVING THAT OPPORTUNITY BUT I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE ME, JOURNALISTS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING TO SEE WHAT THE CANDIDATES ARE REALLY SAYING ON IMPORTANT ISSUES, WE'RE GOING TO MISS THE DEBATES IF THEY DON'T HAPPEN.

>> JIM, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY MIKE DeWINE WON'T DO ONE DEBATE.

HE MAY.

HE'S DONE THIS FOR 40 YEARS.

HE'S VERY GOOD.

HE NEVER REALLY DUCKS REPORTER'S QUESTIONS.

HE TAKES THEM ALL AT NEWS CONFERENCES.

WHY NOT GET UP THERE ONCE, DEBATE HER AND MOVE ON.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ON THIS SHOW SINCE FEBRUARY.

MY PARTY, THE REPUBLICANS, ARE OVER CONFIDENT AND THIS IS BEING PROVED OUT.

THEY SHOULD HAVE TAKEN A MORE AGREEABLE ATTITUDE BEFORE THEY STARTED MAKING MISTAKES.

>> HE'S CONSISTENTLY LEADING BY 50 TO 80 POINTS.

HE HASN'T WAIVERED IN THAT LEAD.

>> I'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSORS AND WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT THAT THE POLLING SYSTEM NOW DUE TO IN FLUX.

WHEN THE COLLEGE EDUCATED SUBURBANITES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM REPUBLICANS TO DEMOCRATS, WHEN WORKING CLASS DEMOCRATS ARE MOVING TO BECOMING REPUBLICANS, WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO WEIGHT THE POLLS ACCURATELY.

THAT'S WHY ON ALL OF THIS STUFF I SAY, NO.

I DON'T BELIEVE THE POLLS AND I'LL GO BACK TO WHAT I SAID IN FEBRUARY.

I DON'T THINK THIS WILL BE A GOOD YEAR FOR DEMOCRATS.

I STILL THINK DAN WINS.

>> ANDREW, J.D.

VANCE DID WELL IN THE PRIMARY CANDIDATES.

HE'S A ROOKIE CANDIDATE.

DOES HE HAVE MORE TO RISK BIR DEBATING TIM RYAN.

>> HE HAS MORE TO GAIN.

YOU SORT OF SEE THINGS ANECDOTALLY AND IN POLLING DATA TO THE EXTENT YOU BELIEVE IT.

RYAN IS PERSUAING OTHERS.

I THINK RYAN'S DONE A GOOD JOB PRESENTING HIMSELF AS THE TYPICAL YOUNGSTOWN MAN, THE GUY YOU'D LIKE TO HAVE A BEER WITH.

SO DAN SHOULD GET UP THERE AND CONTRAST HIS VIEWS.

HE COULD CUT THROUGH SOME OF THOSE THINGS SO I JUST DON'T SEE IT AS REALLY BEING ANY DOWN SIDE FOR HIM UNLESS HE SAYS SOMETHING DUMB, OF COURSE.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT WHO'S HOSTING THE DEBATE, WHERE, DO THEY WANT TO DEBATE?

IF THEY DO, THEY HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

>> HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY, IF IT HAPPENS EVERY TWO YEARS, EVERY FOUR YEARS IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

>>> EARLY VOTING BEGINS ON OCTOBER 12th.

OHIOANS CAN VOTE ABSENTEE FROM HOME WITHOUT AN EXCUSE.

DESPITE THE CONVENIENCES, A NEW STUDY RANKS OHIO AS THE TENTH WORST STATE IN TERMS OF VOTING.

OHIO IS 41st.

THEY LOOK AT TEN FACTORS INCLUDING EASE OF REGISTRATION, AVAILABILITY OF EARLY VOTING, SAME-DAY VOTER REGISTRATION.

WASHINGTON AND VERMONT ARE THE EASIEST.

OHIO RANKS 41st.

NEW HAMPSHIRE IS WORST AND MISSISSIPPI IS ALMOST WORST.

GENE KREBS, DO YOU THINK THIS IS ACCURATE?

>> I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, I SAW THAT STUDY AND I AM GOING, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR STUDY BECAUSE THE STUDY I'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEARS HAS OHIO'S ALWAYS RANKED VERY HIGHLY BECAUSE WE HAVE NO FAULT ABSENTEE VOTING WHICH MEANS THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE A REAL EXCUSE TO ABSENTEE VOTE.

THAT PICKS UP THE PARTICIPATION.

I WILL SAY THIS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WISCONSIN'S SAME-DAY VOTER REGISTRATION.

MANY OF MY FELLOW GOPARS SAY, THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS.

WHEN WISCONSIN IMPLEMENTED THIS, IT LED TO A 5 POINT IMMEDIATE JUMP IN THE REPUBLICAN INDEX.

SO DATA, PLEASE PAY SOME ATTENTION TO DATA HERE.

>> REPUBLICANS CAN PROCRASTINATE AS MUCH AS DEMOCRATS.

>> ACTUALLY, WHAT IT WAS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.

>> THEY'RE BUSY?

>> YEAH, THEY'RE BUSY.

>> OHIO, WISCONSIN AND PENNSYLVANIA GOT NO CREDIT FOR IN PERSON VOTING BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAVE ONE SPOT PER COUNTY.

SHOULD THEY HAVE GOTTEN PARTIAL CREDIT?

>> IT'S TOO HARD FOR PEOPLE IN OUTLYING AREAS TO GET TO ONE SPOT.

>> I APPRECIATED THIS WAS BEING MADE.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

WE HAVE EARLIER VOTING.

WHAT ARE THE BARRIERS TO VOTING.

THE COST OF VOTING.

IF YOU HAVE TO GET TO A WHOLE DIFFERENT PART OF TOWN TO ACCESS YOUR COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS, THAT IS DISQUALIFYING PEOPLE FROM BEING ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

I APPRECIATED THAT NUANCE THERE AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO BE VERY HONEST ABOUT IN THE STATE, ABOUT WHAT OTHER BARRIERS EXIST.

>> IN TERMS OF OHIO, IT'S NOT PASSED ANY NEW VOTING RESTRICTIONS SINCE 2020.

19 STATES HAVE.

SO THAT DIDN'T HURT OUR RANKING THIS TIME AROUND.

>> BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS BEING CONSIDERED THAT COULD PASS, ESPECIALLY IN LAME DUCK.

WE'VE GOT SOME REFORM LEGISLATURES.

VOTING REFORM LEGISLATION ON THE BOILERPLATE DOWN AT THE STATEHOUSE THAT COULD PASS AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR THAT EVEN THOUGH IF YOU LISTEN TO SECRETARY OF STATE LaROSE, HE WILL TELL YOU ON ONE HAND THAT WE HAVE THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE COUNTRY AND ON THE OTHER HAND HE WILL NOT DENOUNCE WHAT DONALD TRUMP AND A LOT OF THE REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING THAT OHIO HAS.

BUT STATISTICALLY, LOOK AT IT.

WE HAVE A VERY, VERY MINUSCULE RATE OF VOTER FRAUD.

>> THAT'S THE CRITICISM OF THIS STUDY AND OTHER REFORM EFFORTS IS THAT ONE SIDE SEES REGULATIONS AS SUPPRESSING THE VOTE, ANOTHER SIDE SEES REGULATIONS AS IMPROVING SECURITY AND THIS DOESN'T HELP THAT ARGUMENT.

HELPS SOME OF THAT ARGUMENT.

>> YEAH, I THINK OHIO GENERALLY HAS A PRETTY GOOD SYSTEM.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT OTHER STATES DO.

I WOULD NOT OVERLOOK THE ISSUE ABOUT HAVING A CENTRAL VOTING LOCATION FOR EARLY VOTING.

IN CLEVELAND PEOPLE HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS, THERE'S NO PARKING, A LOT OF ONE-WAY STREETS.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET THERE IF YOU LIVE IN A SUBURB EVEN IF YOU HAVE A CAR.

IF YOU DON'T, IT'S EVEN MORE DIFFICULT.

THAT'S A REAL ISSUE.

BIG FIGHT AND THEY WANTED MORE DROPOUT LOCATIONS.

WITH THE DIALOGUE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, YOU HAVE J.D.

VANCE, THE SENATE CANDIDATE, SAYING WE SHOULDN'T HAVE AN ELECTION SEASON, WE SHOULD HAVE AN ELECTION DAY.

IF ANYTHING, IF THERE ARE CHANGES I WOULD SAY THEY WOULD PUSH IN THE RESTRICTIVE WAY.

>> GENE, ESPECIALLY IN A NATIONAL ELECTION, EVERY COUNTY WINS THEIR OWN ELECTION BUT WE ELECT FEDERAL LEADERS USING THIS VERY DIFFERENT SYSTEM.

I MEAN, EVERY STATE, DIFFERENT DATES, DIFFERENT REGISTRATION PROCESS.

THERE HAS TO BE A DIFFERENT WAY.

BY KEEPING IT SO DIFFUSE IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT ALSO THEN TO HACK, OKAY?

AND IN OHIO AS IS FAMOUSLY SAID, BECAUSE IT'S 50% REPUBLICANS WORKING THERE, 50% DEMOCRATS WORKING THERE, THEY ALL WATCH EACH OTHER LIKE A HAWK.

IN OHIO THAT REDUCES THE POSSIBILITY OF FRAUD AND HERE, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF FRAUD EACH YEAR IS -- EACH ELECTION IS MEASURED IN THE TENS.

>> OHIO, STATEWIDE, NATIONWIDE.

>> BECAUSE, WELL, THEY SHOULD.

WE HAVE A LOT TO RECOMMEND IT, BUT THEN THE STATUS QUO HAS TO GIVE UP POWER AND CONVINCING STATUS QUO TO GIVE UP POWER IS WAY BEYOND.

>> WITH LITTLE FANFARE STATE LAWMAKERS AND THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION, THEY'VE MISSED THE LATEST DEADLINE FOR DRAWING MAPS.

VOTERS WILL USE MAPS RULED ILLEGAL BY THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

THE OUTGOING CHIEF JUSTICE RECENTLY RENEWED HER CALL FOR A NEW TRULY INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION, ONE THAT COMPLETELY EXCLUDES ELECTED OFFICIALS.

>> LET'S TRY HAVING ORDINARY, SENSIBLE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT DRIVEN BY POLITICS BUT, RATHER, BY WHAT'S FAIR, FAIR REPRESENTATION AND JUSTICE.

>> WE KNOW CONNIE USED HER FINAL STATE OF THE JUDICIARY SPEECH SAYING SHE INTENDS TO BE VERY INVOLVED TO CREATE THE TRULY INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

WHAT WILL IT DO TO THAT EFFORT TO HAVE THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE OHIO STATE SUPREME COURT ONCE SHE LEAVES THE BENCH PLAYING A MAJOR ROLE?

>> VERY UNCLEAR.

THERE'S BEEN SUCH A BIG EFFORT TO BRING MORE FAIRNESS TO HOW WE'RE DRAWING OUR MAPS IN THE STATE.

SO MANY ADVOCATES AND ACTIVISTS HAVE PUT THEIR TIME INTO IT.

WE CONTINUE TO RUN UP AGAINST A BARRIER OF A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO DO NOT CARE.

HOW IT WILL IMPACT THINGS HAVING SOMEONE FROM THEIR OWN PARTY BEING ON THE GROUND ADVOCATING THAT WAY, TBD.

WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE SURE WE'RE BRINGING MORE INTEGRITY IN THE PROCESS.

>> LAWMAKERS HEARING THAT, LISTENING TO THE CALL FOR A DIFFERENT SYSTEM COMPLETELY, ARE THEY PAYING ATTENTION TO IT, KEEP DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING FOR THE PAST.

>> IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS OR SO I FEEL LIKE REPUBLICAN STATE LAWMAKERS ARE IGNORING THE COURT.

I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY WOULD LISTEN TO HER WHILE SHE'S ON HER WAY OUT THE DOOR.

THE WAY I SEE IT, IN THE PAST REPUBLICANS HAVE GONE ALONG WITH THIS BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD A FEAR DEMOCRATS MIGHT MAKE GAINS, PUSH SOMETHING FURTHER THAN WHAT THEY WOULD BE COMFORTABLE WITH.

THAT WAS THE BACKDROP GOING THROUGH THE FIRST TIME.

IT WAS THE LACK OF -- IT WAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

IF YOU GET AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE REPUBLICANS ARE FULL OPPOSITION OF THAT, THE BALLOT CAMPAIGN WILL BE COMPETING FOR OTHER RESOURCES.

THIS HAS FAILED BEFORE.

IT'S A REAL UPHILL CLIMB TO GET THIS ON THE BALLOT.

AT THIS POINT, LIKE I SAID, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLENGE FOR THE ADVOCATES.

>> THE TIME IS NOW, IF THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING NOW, IT HAS TO BE NOW.

TOP OF THE NEWS.

PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.

PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION MORE THAN THEY HAVE IN THE PAST.

>> IT DEPENDS ON THE PEOPLE.

YES, WE'RE PAYING ATTENTION TO IT, FOR SURE.

PEOPLE WHO ARE CLUED INTO POLITICS ARE PAYING ATTENTION.

BUT IF YOU GO OUT ON THE STREET STILL TO THIS DAY AND ASK SOMEONE ABOUT REDISTRICTING, THEY'LL GO, REWHAT THING?

REWHATTING?

PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

IF YOU HAD MORE PEOPLE WHO DID UNDERSTAND IT, WE WOULD SEE A MUCH DIFFERENT -- ONE OF THE THINGS I DO WANT TO SAY IS WE HAD MANY REFORM PROPOSALS THAT WENT TO THE BALLOT BEFORE THE ONE THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE ONES THAT WERE ACTUALLY PUT IN PLACE AND IT FAILED.

WHY DID THEY FAIL?

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T WANT THEM PUT ON A MASSIVE CAMPAIGN IT'S EASY TO GET A NO VOTE.

>> THEY FAILED BECAUSE, GENE, THEY WERE VERY CONFUSING, NOT SIMPLE.

>> VERY COMPLEX.

>> WHAT IS THE PATH IF YOU WERE TO WRITE THE AMENDMENT.

THE SIMPLER THE BETTER HAS GOT TO BE THE WAY TO GO.

>> I WOULD WRITE IT DOWN AND EDIT THE BEJEEBIES OUT OF IT AND GET IT DOWN TO 25 WORDS OR LESS.

THAT'S WHAT YOU DO ON THESE THINGS.

THE PREVIOUS ONE, AND I KNOW THESE PEOPLE, A LOT OF THEM ARE MY FRIENDS, I'M FRIENDS WITH EVERYBODY, BOTH SIDES -- GOD, THAT'S A BROAD STATEMENT, BUT THEY MADE IT WAY TOO COMPLEX AND JUST SIMPLY KEEP IT STATE SHOW ESTABLISHED, CITIZENS DRIVEN INITIATIVE, DA, DA, DA, DA, DA.

SHALL NOT BREAK UP CITIES UNLESS THE POPULATION, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, YOU CAN DO IT.

>>> THE LANDMARKS DOBBS DECISION IS ON HOLD AND IT COULD BE FOR QUITE A WHILE.

LAST WEEK HAMILTON COUNTY COMMON PLEAS JUDGE BLOCKED OHIO'S SIX WEEK ABORTION BAN.

THIS WEEK HE INDICATED HE IS READY TO EXTEND THE TEMPORARY INJUNCTION ORDER EVEN FURTHER.

THAT MEANS OHIO CLEAN NICKS CAN PERFORM ABORTIONS UP TO 20 WEEKS IN A PREGNANCY.

THIS REALLY IS LEGAL LIMBO FOR THESE CLINICS.

THEY HAVE RESUMED ABORTION BEFORE DOBBS.

ANY IDEA HOW LONG THEY CAN TAKE PLACE?

>> RIGHT NOW ABORTIONS IN OHIO ARE ON HOLD UNTIL OCTOBER 12th.

THEN WE'LL GET AN IDEA.

LONG TERM WE'RE LOOKING AT A FIGHT BECAUSE WHOEVER WINS OR LOSES, THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAL THAT.

IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO THE OHIO SUPREME COURT WHICH IS DOMINATED BY REPUBLICANS.

YOU CAN GUESS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN THERE.

THE LONGER ISSUE THOUGH IS PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND TALKING ABOUT, WELL, HOW SHOULD THIS WORK OUT?

WHAT SHOULD OHIO HAVE?

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THE BAN THAT WE HAVE IN THE SUMMER AND SAYING, THERE'S PROBLEMS WITH IT.

DOCTORS SAY THEY HAVE PROBLEMS INTERPRETING IT, ATTORNEYS TOO.

DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DO DIFFERENT THINGS WITH IT.

AND THE OTHER THING IS YOU SEE THE STORIES LIKE THE 10-YEAR-OLD THAT WAS A RAPE VICTIM AND SHE HAD TO GO OVER TO INDIANA TO GET AN ABORTION.

PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, THAT WAS MAKING THE NEWS AND HEADLINES BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE REALLY UPSET.

THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO -- PEOPLE ARE GOING TO NEED TO TALK ABOUT AND ADDRESS IN THE FUTURE AND WHEN THEY SAY ABORTION IS ON THE BALLOT, I THINK IT REALLY IS ON THE BALLOT IN SOME WAY IN NOVEMBER.

>> ANDREW, DO ABORTION RIGHTS OPPONENTS, ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT THIS RULING?

DO THEY SEE IT'S A DEMOCRATIC JUDGE FROM A CITY AND IT WILL GET OVERTURNED ON APPEAL AND BY THE HOUSE SUPREME COURT SHOULD IT GET THAT FAR?

>> I THINK IT'S MORE THE LATTER.

THEY'VE BEEN PLAYING A LONG GAME.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT ANTI-ABORTION FORCES HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR DECADES.

I DON'T WANT TO MAKE LIGHT OF THE MAGNITUDE OF THE ISSUE AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

YEAH, WE'LL SEE HOW THE NOVEMBER ELECTION TURNS OUT BUT I WOULD FULLY EXPECT THAT THEY'RE WAITING TO SEE IT GET TO THE SUPREME COURT AND THEY FEEL CONFIDENT ABOUT THEIR CHANCES THERE.

>> MORGAN, DO YOU THINK THE LAW, THE RULING IS UPHELD AND THE SIX-WEEK BAN IS NULLIFIED?

>> NOT EXACTLY SURE HOW THIS IS ALL GOING TO PLAY OUT BUT I DID WANT TO SAY WHEN WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT THE DEBATE AND WHAT IS ON THE LINE FOR MIKE DEWYNN IN DEBATING.

HAVING VIDEO CONTENT THAT'S TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE DISCUSSED AND HAVING THEM TAKE POSITIONS, MIKE DeWINE AND J.D.

ADVANCE AND HAVING THAT DISTRIBUTED IS SOMETHING THAT COULD MOTIVATE PEOPLE TO TURN OUT TO VOTE.

WE NEED TO DEMAND CLARITY FROM ALL OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AND MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING ALL THAT'S RIGHT WHICH IS PROTECTING A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

>> MIKE DeWINE, THE LAW OF PROFILING'S WEBSITE.

HE'S BEEN PRETTY CLEAR ON HIS PRO LIFE STANCE.

GENE, DOES THIS MAKE IT MORE URGENT FOR LAWMAKERS TO PASS SOMETHING AFTER THE ELECTION, A STRONGER ABORTION BAN AS MANY WANT TO DO?

>> I THINK WHAT THEY REALLY NEED TO DO, I'M REALLY SURPRISED THAT I'M MAKING THIS STATEMENT, IS THEY NEED TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT'S WELL-CRAFTED.

WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THIS POINT IN TIME HAS BEEN OVERLY VAGUE, OPEN TO A VARIETY OF INTERPRETATIONS AND IT'S A FULL EMPLOYMENT ACT FOR LAWYERS.

HOSPITALS ARE IMMEDIATELY OBGYN PRACTICES IN ALL HOSPITALS THAT I'M AWARE OF ARE PROMPTLY HIRING CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ON RETAINER.

THEY'VE ALWAYS HAD CIVIL.

NOW THEY'RE HIRING CRIMINAL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

OUR LAST TOPIC.

IT IS HARD TO MOVE INTO AND HARD TO MOVE AROUND CENTRAL OHIO.

THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH HOUSES.

THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH APARTMENTS, ESPECIALLY AFFORDABLE ONES.

THE CITY GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO CHANGE THAT.

IF IT'S APPROVED, THE CITY WILL BORROW SOME $200 MILLION TO BUILD AND INCENTIVE ADVISE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

IS THIS A GOOD USE OF TAXPAYER MONEY AND IS THIS GOING TO WORK?

>> WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO ADDRESS THE HOUSING CRISIS.

WE NEED TO BE HONEST WHAT IS GOING TO FILL THIS GAP COMPLETELY.

THE REALITY IS NO CITY CAN DO THIS ON THEIR OWN.

WE NEED TO HAVE FEDERAL ACTION THAT HAPPENS TO BRING THE RESOURCES TO BEAR TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF HOUSING AND IN CENTRAL OHIO AND HAVE TRANSIT THAT MAKES SURE HOUSING IS ACCESSIBLE TO PEOPLE WHEN IT'S BUILT.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE PRIVATE SECTOR, GENE?

THEY'RE PROFIT MOTIVATED.

RIGHT NOW IT'S MINI MANSIONS, McMANSIONS.

STARTER HOMES NOT SO MUCH.

>> YES.

HERE'S THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER, NATIONWIDE 75% OF THE LAND ZONED FOR RESIDENTIAL HOUSING, IT IS ILLEGAL TO PUT AN APARTMENT ON THAT LAND BECAUSE OF AN ABUSE OF ZONING THAT WE'VE SEEN GOING ON.

THIS WAS TRIED TO BE FIXED UNDER THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION BY GEORGE D. ROMNEY WHEN HE WAS HEAD OF DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE AND HE TRIED TO FIX IT BY SAYING CITIES THAT ENGAGE -- ARE ABLE TO MOVE PAST THE ZONING LOG JAM AND PUT IN MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING WOULD MOVE UP ON FEDERAL MONEY.

NIXON PROMPTLY FIRED THEM.

>> NOT IN MY BACKYARD.

WE'VE SEEN THAT ALL OVER.

APARTMENTS, BECAUSE THAT'S TOO MANY PEOPLE, TOO MANY PEOPLE WE DON'T WANT IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS.

>> THAT'S IT.

THE OTHER THING IS THE TAX SYSTEM, THE WAY THAT IT IS RIGHT NOW, MAKES IT SO THAT HAVING PROPERTY IS A KEY INVESTMENT AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE PROPERTY AND THEY CONTINUE -- YOU SEE THESE CORPORATIONS GO OUT AND BUY HOUSE AFTER HOUSE AFTER HOUSE THAT COULD BE AFFORDABLE FOR SOMEONE.

THEY'RE BUYING IT, THEY'RE FLIPPING IT, THEY'RE MAKING MONEY ON IT AND THEN THE PEOPLE CAN NO LONGER AFFORD IT.

THE STOCK IS GOING DOWN AND THERE'S NOTHING TO DEAL WITH THAT PROBLEM.

>> WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THE INTEL PROJECT AND THE $2 BILLION THEY'RE GOING TO INVEST IN THAT TO BRING THAT HERE AND CREATE ALL KINDS OF JOBS.

HAS THERE EVER BEEN A TALK ABOUT THE HOUSING $2 BILLION?

HOUSING OHIO INSTEAD OF JOBS OHIO, TRYING TO INCENTIVE ADVISE COMMUNITY TO BUILD A WIDE VARIETY OF HOUSING?

>> I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT BUT IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE BECAUSE AS COLUMBUS IS GROWING, DOWNSTREAM FROM PLACES LIKE AUSTIN OR SAN FRANCISCO OR THIS IS A CRAZY PROBLEM WHERE IN SAN FRANCISCO YOU CAN SPEND $2,000 A MONTH RENTING A TRAILER IN SOMEBODY'S BACKYARD.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT.

I LIVE IN CLINTONVILLE, IT'S AN UPPER MIDDLE CLASS NEIGHBORHOOD.

A HOUSE THAT I WAS LOOKING, SOMEBODY BOUGHT IT FOR $300,000 FOUR YEARS AGO, LISTING IT FOR $500,000 TODAY.

THAT'S NOT A CHANGE IN THE PROPERTY, THAT'S A CHANGE IN THE PROPERTY VALUE.

THAT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR COMMUNITY COMING AND GIVING MORE MONEY.

IT'S JUST EVEN, YOU KNOW, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE WELL OFF.

>> YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2008, HAPPENING AGAIN.

TIME FOR OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOT.

>> I WENT FROM THINKING RANK CHOICE VOTING HAD A 15% CHANCE OF SUCCESS TO 24 AND NOW IT'S 50-50.

MY PARTNER IN THIS, SHAWN LOGAN, FORMER DEMOCRAT HOUSE MEMBER, HEAD OF ODMR, WE'RE VERY ENCOURAGED BY SOME CHANGES THIS WEEK.

>> MORGAN?

>> I'M GOING TO HIGHLIGHT A NATIONAL ISSUE.

WE HAD MOVEMENT ON A BILL THAT WOULD ALLOW LOCAL JOURNALISM TO RECEIVE MORE OF THE ADD WINDOW.

THAT'S MOVING FORWARD IN THE SENATE.

IT'S A POSITIVE THING.

>> ANDREW?

>> I'M GOING TO THE OHIO DEMOCRATIC FAMILY PARTY REUNION AND A J.D.

VANCE EVENT EARLIER IN THE DAY.

THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE HAD AN IN PERSON MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE CORONAVIRUS.

IT'S OUTDOORS.

>> AND, JO?

>> THERE ARE TALKS ABOUT SOME DEBATES.

I HOPE WE DO SEE THOSE.

I HOPE WE SEE INDEPENDENT MODERATORS, QUESTIONERS HOLDING THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE AND IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT, IT'S HARD TO DECIDE ON A CANDIDATE WITHOUT HAVING ALL OF THE INFORMATION.

>> MY LAST COMMENT, CONGRATULATIONS TO MIKE DeWINE'S THREE GRANDDAUGHTERS WHO RAN STRONG RACES AT LAST SATURDAY NIGHT'S CEDARVILLE FRIENDSHIP CROSS-COUNTRY INVITATIONAL.

THEY GAVE THEIR GRANDFATHER A PRETTY GOOD MISS.

CONGRATULATIONS TO THEM.

IF YOU NEED A REASON TO MISS AN EVENT YOU DON'T WANT TO ATTEND, OCTOBER 14th WE WILL HOST A "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" LIVE IN FRONT OF THE STUDIO AUDIENCE HERE ON THE CAMPUS.

WE'LL HAVE A Q&A SESSION AND A RECESSION FROM 6-8 P.M. GO TO WOSU DOT DOT ORG.

>>> THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND YOU CAN SEE EACH EPISODE ON DEMAND ON YOUR TIME THROUGH OUR WEBSITE WOSU.ORG COTR AND THROUGH THE PBS VIDEO APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND FOR OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.