CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY."

FIRST, THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION CONCLUDES AND THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IS ABOUT TO GET UNDER WAY.

HOW WILL THEY IMPACT THE WOMEN'S VOTE?

>>> THEN, WE SPEAK WITH DEMOCRATIC MINNESOTA JUNIOR SENATOR, TINA SMITH.

>>> HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL ISSUES FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION, THE FIRST EVER DIGITAL CONVENTION, WRAPPED UP AND NEXT WEEK WE SEE THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, ALSO DIGITAL.

A HISTORIC POLITICAL FIRST AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT HOW THAT CHANGES THE ELECTIONS.

WITH ME ARE CONGRESSWOMAN EL NOR HOLMES NORTON OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AND PATRICE OF THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM.

HELLO, LADIES, HOW ARE YOU?

>> GOOD, THANK YOU.

>> GEL NOR,ELEANOR, LET'S START WITH YOU.

HOW DID THIS CHANGE?

IT WAS IN COMPETITION WITH A NUMBER OF SPORTS EVENTS AND ALSO WITHOUT AN AUDIENCE.

DO YOU THINK IT -- DO YOU THINK CONVINCED PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE ALL SPEAKING TO AN AUDIENCE OR WAS THERE SOMETHING LACKING, OR WHAT?

>> I THINK THE INNOVATIONS THAT THE CONVENTION REPRESENTS BEAUTIFULLY TOOK THE PLACE OF HAVING AN AUDIENCE.

FOR EXAM WILL, THE CONSTITUENTS WHO WERE REPUBLICANS, WHO SPOKE UP FOR BIDEN, THE ORCHESTRATION WITHOUT APPLAUSE THAT SEAMLESSLY WENT FROM ONE EVENT TO THE NEXT.

THE SHORT, EXCEPT FOR MAJOR SPEECHES, THE SHORT SPEECHES THAT HELPED PEOPLE TO ACCLIMATE TO WHAT THEY ARE USED TO SEEING ON TELEVISION, WHICH IS NOT A LOT OF DRAWN-OUT TALK, ALL WORKED TO MAKE TO MAKE THIS FIRST OF ITS KIND CONVENTION WORK VERY WELL, I THINK.

>> I TELL WHAT YOU I SAW THAT REALLY STRUCK OUT IN MY MIND AND WAS VERY EFFECTIVE, WAS THE REPRESENTATIVE WOULD TALLIED HER STATE'S VOTES IN FRONT OF THED MON ETISTHEDMON PETTIS BRIDGE.

IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL SHOT.

EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

SUCH A BEAUTIFUL PLACE IN HISTORY.

PATRICE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS CONVEYED THE KIND OF MESSAGE THEY NEED TO CONVEY TO WIN IN NOVEMBER OR NOT?

>> WELL, I WILL JUST AGREE WITH YOU BOTH ABOUT THE DELEGATE ROLL CALL.

I THINK THIS WAS FANTASTIC TO SEE ALL OF THE SHAITS SHOWCASED.

AND I LOVE THE CALAMARI GUY IN RHODE ISLAND.

I THINK HE WAS THE STAR OF THE WHOLE CONVENTION SO FAR.

NOW, DID ALL OF THE VOICES COMMUNICATE THE UNIFIED MESSAGE?

I THINK THEY DID.

AND I THINK THE MESSAGE IS ANYONE BUT TRUMP.

FILL IN THE BLANK AND BIDEN HAPPENS TO BE THE NAME INSERTED THERE.

>> JOE BIDEN MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR IN A SERIES OF VIDEOS THAT HE IS GOING TO REINSTATE OBAMA CARE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, TO GET RID OF THE PREEXISTING CONDITION EXCLUSIONS THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES HAVE AND I GUESS HAVE COME BACK SINCE THE SUPREME COURT THREW OUT PART OF OBAMA CARE.

BUT IS THAT -- AND HE ALSO TALKED ABOUT OTHER ISSUES AS WELL.

BUT REALLY HE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE FIRST THING WHEN HE GETS INTO OFFICE, IS HE WILL GET HEALTH CARE AGAIN FOR EVERY AMERICAN WHO NEEDS IT.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A GOOD ISSUE TO LEAD WITH?

>> LET ME TELL YOU WHY THAT ISSUE MAKES SENSE.

HEALTH CARE IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE ON THE PUBLIC MIND IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY.

AND THAT IS REALLY SOMETHING CONSIDERING PEOPLE LIKE ME HAVE HEALTH CARE THROUGH THEIR EMPLOYER.

INDEED, IT IS HEALTH CARE, AND THE REPUBLICAN VIEW OF HEALTH CARE WIPING IT OUT, THE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE ACT, THAT GAVE US BACK THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WHICH IS TO SAY WEWE ARE NOW IN CHARGE WHILE DEMOCRATS ARE IN CHARGE WHILE I'M SUBCOMMITTEE CHAIR.

WHAT ISSUE WAS HEALTH CARE?

THAT ISSUE REMAINS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT IS CONTINUING TO CALL FOR THE REPEAL OF THE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE ACT.

WE WANTED TO KEEP DOING THAT BECAUSE THAT GUARANTEES THAT HE WILL BE DEFEATED.

>> PATRICE?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT HEALTH CARE IS A TOP ISSUE.

I LOOK AT CNN'S POLLING JUST THIS PAST WEEKEND, AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE TOP ISSUE IS REALLY THE ECONOMY.

DELEGATE NORTON, I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU, MAYBE PREPANDEMIC.

BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT 35 TO 40 MILLION AMERICANS, WHO BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN, SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, PEOPLE WERE LEFT UNEMPLOYMENT.

SO NOW, HOW DO YOU -- PEOPLE WILL BE THINKING, I REMEMBER IN JANUARY THE STELLAR UNEMPLOYMENT NUMBERS THAT WE WERE EXPERIENCING.

I LOOK AT STOCK MARKET AND SAY, OKAY, THAT IS GOOD OVER THERE BUT WHAT ABOUT JOBS AND WHAT ABOUT THE ABILITY TO START MY OWN BUSINESS?

AND SO I THINK THAT IN THE ECONOMY, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE ISSUE THAT PEOPLE, THAT VOTERS STILL TRUST THE PRESIDENT ABOVE JOE BIDEN ON, IT IS GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

ONE THAT CAN'T BE DENIED.

>> YOUR NOTION THAT THE ECONOMY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DOESN'T HELP THE PRESIDENT.

YES, HE WAS AHEAD SOMEWHAT ON THE ECONOMY BEFORE.

I MUST TELL YOU THAT THE PANDEMIC AND THE WAY HE HAS HANDLED THE PANDEMIC IS SO OVERRUN THE ECONOMY NOW, THAT IT IS VERY HARD FOR HIM TO RUN ON THE ECONOMY, AND IT IS PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO RUN ON HIS MANAGE THE OF THE PANDEMIC.

THAT HAS WIPED OUT WHATEVER EFFECTS THE ECONOMY HAVE HAD AND IF HE WANTED TO RUN ON THE ECONOMY, WE WERE PREPARED FOR THAT TOO.

BECAUSE OF THE TAX CUTS THAT OVERWHELMINGLY FAVORED THE VERY RICH IN OUR COUNTRY.

I DON'T THINK THIS PRESIDENT HAS AN ISSUE TO RUN ON AS I SPEAK.

>> WELL, BUT HE, NONETHELESS, HE IS PRETTY MUCH OF AN ATTACK DOG.

HE RUNS ON ATTACKS AND HIS SUPPORTERS LOVE HIM FOR IT.

HE'S VERY UNUSUAL, SOME WHO SAY, UNPRESIDENTIAL, IN THE WAY HE MAKES THOSE ATTACKS.

BUT ACTUALLY THIS WEEK, THE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE SENT OUT A TWEET SAYING, LOOK HOW GREAT THE NASDAQ IS DOING, THE STOCK MARKET IS IN TERRIFIC SHAPE.

AND HE GOT JUMPED ON BY A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING, EXCUSE ME, 39 MILLION PEOPLE OUT OF WORK.

PEOPLE WITHOUT FOOD.

PEOPLE GETTING KICKED OUT OF THEIR HOUSES BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE JOBS AND THEY CAN'T PAY THE RENT ANY MORE.

AND IT SHOWED, QUITE FRANKLY, HOW INSENSITIVE THIS ADMINISTRATION CAN BE TO REALLY ITS BACK BACKBONE WHO ARE LESS EDUCATED WHITE MALES.

WHITE MEN WITHOUT COLLEGE DEGREES.

DO YOU THINK, ELEANOR, THAT BIDEN IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE AS HIS SUPPORTERS?

>> THE REASON THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT IS AHEAD IS PRECISELY BECAUSE HE REACHED BEYOND HIS DEMOCRATIC BASE.

THE PRESIDENT REMAINS VERY STRONG, HYPER STRONG, ON A DIMINISHING REPUBLICAN BASE.

BUT THAT WILL NOT WIN THIS ELECTION FOR HIM.

>> AT THE START OF THIS YEAR, I WOULD SAY, UNLESS SOMETHING HAPPENS TO THE ECONOMY, HIS PROSPECTS OF VERY GOOD.

NOW HERE WE HAVE A TIGHTENING AND I WILL JUST SAY WHEB IT COMES TO THE POLLING, IT IS NOT JUST THE NATIONAL OVERALL POLL NUMBERS WE NEED TO LOOK AT.

WE NEED TO LOOK AT KEY SWING STATES WHERE THE MARGIN OF DIFFERENCE IS ONE POINT WITH JOE BIDEN IN THE LEAD.

SO THERE HAS BEEN SOMETHING, A CLOSING OF THE GAP, AND WHAT THOSE ISSUES ARE, MAYBE PEOPLE ARE PAYING MORE ATTENTION NOW.

I DO THINK THERE IS OPPORTUNITY PARTICULARLY IF WE HAVE A VACCINE THAT GETS DEVELOPED, WE HAVE ONE ALREADY IN PHASE 3, WHICH IS THE FINAL PHASE OF DEVELOPMENT, IF WE SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT, IF WE SEE GREAT ARE CONFIDENCE IN THE ABILITY FOR SCHOOLS, FOR BUSINESSES, FOR CHURCHES, FOR PEOPLE TO REGAIN SOME OF THAT NORMALCY, WITHOUT RISKING A RELAPSE OF CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAKS AND I THINK PEOPLE WILL SAY, OKAY, SOMETHING RIGHT IS BEING DONE.

>> DURING THE LAST, I WOULD SAY, ABOUT 15, 20 YEARS, ACTUALLY SINCE RONALD REAGAN, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS WON THE WHITE MARRIED WOMEN'S VOTE AND THE SUBURBAN WHITE WOMEN'S VOTE IS KIND OF UP FOR GRABS.

SOME OF THESE WOMEN VOTE REPUBLICAN, SOME OF THEM VOTE DEMOCRAT.

BUT IT IS WOMEN OF COLOR WHO HAVEWHOHAVE BEEN THE BACKBONE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THEY NEED TO GET THEM OUT.

WILL THIS CONVENTION GET THOSE WOMEN, AND REMEMBER, WEDNESDAY NIGHT WAS WOMEN'S NIGHT, PRETTY MUCH.

I MEAN, OBAMA SPOKE.

BUT A WHOLE SLEW OF GOVERNORS AND SENATORS AND VERY IMPORTANT WOMEN IN THE PARTY, AND OF COURSE HOUSE SPEAKER, NANCY PELOSI SPOKE, IS THAT ENOUGH TO GET, TO TRY TO GET BACK WHAT USED TO BE THE BACKBONE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH WAS WHITE WOMEN.

>> WELL, WE GOT BLACK WOMEN OUT WHEN BARACK OBAMA, A BLACK MAN, WAS PRESIDENT.

NOW WITH A BLACK WOMAN RUNNING AS VICE PRESIDENT, I THINK WE WILL SEE THAT RESURGENCE ONCE AGAIN.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME EVER IN OUR COUNTRY THAT THERE'S BEEN A BLACK WOMAN ON THE TICKET.

THAT IS BOUND TO BRING BLACK WOMEN TO THE POLLS IN RECORD NUMBERS.

>> A LOT OF WOMEN ALSO ARE JUST SO FURIOUS WITH THIS PRESIDENT FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND THE JUDGES HE HAS APPOINTED, WHO WILL FOR YEARS TO COME BE AFFECTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS ENOUGH TO GET WHITE WOMEN BACK INTO THE DEMOCRATIC POLL?

>> I MUST TELL YOU, I FEEL VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT WHITE WOMEN.

AND I DO SO BASED ON THE 2018 ELECTIONS.

WHERE SUBURBAN WHITE WOMEN ARE THE REASON WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE BACK THE HOUSE.

WE SAW A MAJOR SHIFT IN VOTING BY WHITE WOMEN.

AND I MEAN SUBURBAN WHITE WOMEN IN PARTICULAR.

THAT BASE APPEARS TO BE ALIENATED FROM THIS PRESIDENT.

AND I DON'T SEE ANYTHING HE IS DOING NOW TO WIN THEM BACK.

>> PATRICE?

>> SURE.

BLACK WOMEN ARE THE MOST POLITICALLY DEMOCRATIC WE HAVE.

IENT TO WORRY ABOUT THEM TURNING OUT.

AND I WILL BE WATCHING FOR HOW MANY WERE FORMERLY DEMOCRATIC WHO WILL BE INDEPENDENT AND CONSIDER VOTING FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

FROM IND INDEPENDENT POLLING OF BLACK WOMEN LIKE THE BLACK WOMEN'S ROUNDTABLE, THEY PUT OUT THEIR SISTER VOTE EVERY YEAR.

AND WE ARE SEEING INCREASINGLY MORE BLACK WOMEN MOVE OUT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO INDEPENDENT.

SO THERE IS SOMETHING GOING ON THERE.

>> RIGHT, BUT IT IS STILL SOMETHING LIKE 90/10 SPLIT.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS IN NO DANGER OF LOSING THE VAST MAJORITY OF BLACK WOMEN'S VOTES.

>> SURE.

>> WHAT IS THEIR TOP ISSUE?

IS THEIR TOP ISSUE JOBS?

IS IT THE ECONOMY?

IS IT THE PANDEMIC?

IS IT HEALTH CARE?

WHAT IS THEIR TOP ISSUE?

>> SEEMS LIKE HEALTH CARE IS ONE OF THOSE TOP ISSUES.

EDUCATION.

RACIAL ISSUEIS ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

AND ENTITLEMENTS.

AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THOSE ISSUES, I THINK DEMOCRATS DO CERTAINLY PUT FORWARD SOME POLICY AND PROPOSAL THAT SEEM TO HELP.

I'M GOING TO CHALLENGE THAT A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN ARE INTERESTED IN ENTREPRENEURSHIP AS WELL.

THE ABILITY TO START BUSINESSES.

AND BLACK WOMEN, BLACK GIRL MAGIC, LED IN TERMS OF STARTING BUSINESSES PARTICULARLY DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE OF DEREGULATION AND BECAUSE OF ALLOWING, HAVING MORE TAX CUTS AND OPPORTUNITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO I THINK YOU WILL SEE A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN.

WHEN I SAY A LOT, I'M NOT SAYING 50 POINTS OR 30 POINTS, MAYBE 10 POINTS.

BUT IF IT IS 10 OR EVEN 2 POINTS IN A SWING STATE, NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IMPACT ON THE ACTUAL TURNOUT, OR THE ACTUAL DECISION FOR EACH STATE DURING THE ELECTION CYCLE.

>> IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BLACK WOMEN STARTING BUSINESSES, YOU ARE WAY AHEAD OF YOURSELF.

IF BLACK WOMEN ARE IN BUSINESS AND TOO FEW ARE, DURING PANDEMIC PARTICULARLY FOR SMALL BUSINESSES, IT HAS BEEN ABOUT STAYING IN BUSINESS.

THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS FAILING ON.

BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO RALLY THE ECONOMY DURING A PANDEMIC.

HE HAS BEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, HE DOESN'T WANT IT TELL PEOPLE TO WEAR A MASK EVEN THOUGH THAT'S ONE OF THE FEW TOOLS WE HAVE.

THESE ARE -- >> DOESN'T THAT DEPEND ON WHAT DAY IT IS?

LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE HAS BEEN ON BOTH SIDES OF EVERY ISSUE.

>> I WOULD JUST SAY THOUGH THAT THE PPE PROGRAM, WHICH PROVIDED A LIFELINE TO A LOT OF SMALL BUSINESSES, HAS BEEN REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT TO SEE ANOTHER CORONAVIRUS STIMULUS PACKAGE, UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE A HOUSE THAT LEFT AND RECESSED, THE SENATE AS WELL, BUT ONLY COMING BACK TO THE POST OFFICE AND NOT COMING BACK FOR STIMULUS.

NOW I UNDERSTAND THE HOUSE HAS PASSED A $3 TRILLION STIMULUS PACKAGE.

THAT WOULD NEVER GET THROUGH SENATE.

BUT LET'S FIGURE OUT HOW OUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND I IMPLORE YOU, CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE WITH REPUBLICANS ON GETTING SOMETHING THAT KIND OF RELIEF OUT TO AMERICAN FAMILIES AND SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS THAT'S NEEDED.

>> IT BEHOOVES A REPUBLICAN TO TALK ABOUT THE NEXT PACKAGE WHEN THE PACKAGE IS OUT THERE, I'LL BE THE FIRST TO SAY, THAT IT HAS BEEN STUCK BECAUSE REPUBLICANS REFUSED TO LEGIT LEGITIMATELY NE GLOASHATE ONNO NEGOTIATE ON THIS PACK PEPT EVERYBODYPACKET.EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET BACK TO THE TABLE.

MY SIDE AND YOUR SIDE.

IT F THEY DON'T, BOTH SIDES WILL SUFFER IN NOVEMBER.

>> THANK YOU BOTH NOR YOUR SAGE COUNSEL.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

WITH ME NOW IS TINA SMITH, JUNIOR SENATOR, DEMOCRAT, FROM MINNESOTA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, SENATOR SMITH.

>> THANK YOU.

WONDERFUL TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU ARE FROM A STATE WITH TWO FEMALE HE IS NOT STORES, TWO WHITE FEMALE SENATORS.

HOW DO YOU THINK DEMOCRATS WILL DO THIS YEAR WITH WHITE FEE NAIL FEMALE VOTERS?

IT USED TO BE THAT THEY GOT THE MAJORITY OF THOSE VOTERS BUT MARRIED WHITE WOMEN, SINCE RONALD REAGAN, HAVE BEEN VOTED DEMOCRATIC IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND JUST WHITE WOMEN GENERALLY, THE DEMOCRATS LOST TO PRESIDENT TRUMP LAST TIME.

SO HOW IS THIS YEAR GOING TO BE DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, YOU RAISE I THINK A REALLY GOOD POINT WHICH IS THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF WOMEN AND NOT ASSUME THEY ARE GOING TO VOTE WITH ONE PARTY OR ANOTHER, ESPECIALLY IF THIS MOIMENT.

IMOMENT.I CAN SIGH THAT HERE IN MINNESOTA THAT BOTH AMY AND I HAVE WON BY APPEALING TO A BROAD GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS.

AND CERTAINLY WOMEN IN THE SUBURBS ARE A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT AUDIENCE TO US.

AND I THINK REALLY RESONATE WITH WHAT IT IS THAT WE TALK ABOUT.

WHETHER IT IS TALKING ABOUT COMMON SENSE GUN REFORM, WHETHER IT IS A FOCUS ON EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WOMEN CARE ABOUT.

SOMETIMES WE TALK ABOUT WOMEN'S ISSUES LIKE A CATEGORY, A SPECIFIC ISSUES.

BUT WOMEN'S ISSUES OR PEOPLE ISSUES, FAMILY ISSUES, ECONOMIC ISSUES AND I THAT I MOST OF THE TIME WOMEN ARE JUST HAPPY TO HAVE SOMEBODY TALK TO THEM IN A STRAIGHT FORWARD WAY ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THEIR LIVES AND HOW THEY CAN BE USEFUL.

>> IT IS A VERY UNUSUAL YEAR IN POLITICS GENERALLY SPEAKING.

FIRST OF ALL, THE PANDEMIC.

SECONDLY, ALMOST 40 MILLION AMERICANS OUT OF WORK AND OF COURSE 170,000 PLUS DEAD FROM THE PANDEMIC.

DO YOU THINK THAT THOSE ISSUES YOU JUST MENTIONED, GUN CONTROL, EDUCATION, ARE TOP ON WOMEN'S MINDS RIGHT NOW OR DO YOU THINK IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH CURRENT EVENTS.

>> I THINK THAT WOMEN ARE VERY FOCUSED ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THEIR LIVES RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC WHICH HAS BEEN LIKE AN EARTHQUAKE THAT HAS SHAKEN THE ECONOMIC FOUNDATIONS OF MANY WOMEN'S LIVES AND FAMILY LIVES AND PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS ON TOP OF IT.

AND HON LIFT, HONESTLY, I HEAR A LOT IN MINNESOTA ON ISSUES AROUND RACE AND EQUALITY.

BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, PEOPLE IN THIS MOMENT, AT LEAST IN MY STATE, ARE STRUGGLING TO MAKE THEIR LIVES WORK WHEN EVERYTHING HAS GOTTEN TURNED UPSIDE DOWN.

AND THE REASON I MENTIONEDCATION MENTIONED, EDUCATION, IS BECAUSE FOR WOMEN WHO HAVE CHILDREN AT HOME, OR HAVE GRANDCHILDREN THAT WORRY ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR SCHOOLS AND WHETHER THEIR CHILDREN ARE GOING BACK IT SCHOOL SAFELY AND IF THEY CAN'T, HOW ARE THE FAMILIES GOING TO MANAGE WITH HOME LEARNING AND HOMEWORKING AND THE STRESS OF THAT IS JUST REALLY PALPABLE AROUND MY STATE.

>> VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S WIFE, IF HE IS ELECTED PRESIDENT, WILL BE THE FIRST WOMAN EVER TO CONTINUE HER CAREER.

SHE HAS ADVANCED DEGREES IN EDUCATION.

SHE TEACHES AT THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE LEVEL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, THIS WILL BE THE FIRST WORKING FIRST LADY EVER.

AND I MUST SAY, WHEN MICHELLE OBAMA QUIT HER JOB AS A LAWYER AND HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATION, I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THAT.

THEY TODAY SOFTEN HAD TO SOFTEN HER IMAGE.

AT THE TIME SHE CALLED HERSELF MOM-IN, CHIEF.

FOR WOMEN WHO BUILT CAREERS, I THOUGHT THAT WAS A BIT INSENSITIVE.

IT WAS OBVIOUSLY MEANT TO APPEAL TO HOMEMAKERS.

BUT IT LEFT OUT A LOT OF CAREER WOMEN.

SO WHO MAY ALSO BE MOTHERS.

BUT THEIR JOB, THEIR CAREERS AND THEIR FAMILY ARE OF EQUAL IMPORTANCE THIS THEIR LIVES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAVING JILL BIDEN AS A WORKING, THE FIRST, WORKING FIRST LADY WILL DO FOR WOMEN'S ISSUES IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT MAKES ME THINK, I LOVED THE INTERACTION THAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH DR. BIDEN DURING THE CONVENTION.

I LOVED HER TELLING THE STORY ABOUT HOW WHEN JOE BECAME VICE PRESIDENT AND SHE EXPLAINED THAT SHE WAS GOING TO CONTINUE WORKING AND CONTINUE TEACHING HER CLASSES AND THE STAFF WAS SORT OF LIKE, WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO WORK.

AND SHE MADE IT WORK.

BECAUSE SHE HAD THE STRENGTH TO DO IT.

AND ALSO BECAUSE SHE HAD THE SUPPORT OF HER FAMILY.

WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT, TOO.

SO I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE INCREDIBLE AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MOST WOMEN WORK.

MOST WOMEN HAVE A FULL-TIME JOB AND FULL FAMILY LIFE.

THAT'S THE BALANCE THAT WE STRIKE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

AND DIDN'T YOU LOVE THE WAY SHE PRESENTED HERSELF AND HER FAMILY AND HER WORK BY HER APPEARANCE IN THE CONVENTION IN THAT EMPTY CLASSROOM?

AND IT IS WHERE SHE HAD TAUGHT.

WHERE SHE GAVE PERMISSION FOR EVERYONE TO SEE HOW SAD IT IS THAT THOSE CLASSROOMS ARE EMPTY.

BUT SHE USED IT AS A BY OF TALKING ABOUT WHAT HOLDS HER FAMILY TOGETHER.

AND HER WORK AS WELL.

I THOUGHT IT WAS SO SMART AND JUST SO REAL.

>> AND DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HELP DRAW WHITE WOMEN, WHITE SUBURBAN WOMEN, MARRIED WOMEN, BACK INTO THE DEMOCRATIC FOLD?

THAT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT CONSTITUENCY.

IT SURPRISES ME THAT DEMOCRATS HAVEN'T DONE MORE TO REACH OUT TO THOSE WOMEN.

>> I THINK IT WILL BECAUSE YOU KNOW, VOTERS, I THINK, WANT TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT A TICKET BROADLY SPEAKING, JOE AND JILL AND KAMALA AND DOUG AND SORT OF SAY, CAN I SEE MYSELF IN THEM.

DO I HAVE SOME REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN IMAGINE WALKING IN MY SHOES.

SO I THINK FOR SURE WHAT JILL'S LIFE EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN WILL HELP PEOPLE TO SEE THAT.

AND THEN OF COURSE, IT IS SO MUCH OF POLITICS IS ABOUT FEELING AND ALSO ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FEELING, I THINK FEELING FIRST AND THEN THINKING.

BUT I THINK THAT THE POLICIES AND THE POLICIES THAT JOE AND KAMALA ARE PUTTING OUT ALSO ARE THE KINDS OF POLICIES THAT MAKE SENSE FOR WOMEN'S LIVES, INCLUDING WHITE WOMEN, BLACK WOMEN AND BROWN WOMEN.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE MOST ATTRACTIVE THING TO WOMEN OF ALL RACE IS ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS IS?

>> WELL, SO I JUST HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I AM COMPLETELY BIASED HERE.

WHEN I FIRST CAME TO THE SENATE IN JANUARY OF 2018, KAMAL WHYA WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO REACHED OUT IT ME.

SHE LITERALLY BROUGHT ME A NEW SENATOR CARE PACKAGE THAT INCLUDED TYLENOL, VERY GOOD ADVICE ON HOW TO MANAGE MY SCHEDULE, A BOTTLE OF CALIFORNIA WINE AND AN EMPTY POPCORN BAG BECAUSE SHE ALWAYS HAS POPCORN IN HER OFFICE AT AROUND 3:00 AND HER OFFICE IS JUST A COUPLE OF FLOORS BELOW MINE.

SO I COMPLETELY BIASED.

BUT HERE IS THE THING I THINK A A KAMALA DOES THAT SOMETHING THAT WOMEN LEADERS, WHETHER IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR OR PUBLIC SECTOR, HAVE TO MASTER, AND THIS IS TO BE YOURSELF, TO BE REAL.

TO BE STRONG.

AND ALSO TO BE WARM.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHO SHE IS.

SHE HAS A DEPTH OF WARMTH THAT YOU SEE AND YOU ALSO FEEL WHEN YOU MEET HER.

BUT SHE DOESN'T MESS AROUND.

SHE IS STRONG.

AND I THINK THAT GIVES PEOPLE A SENSE OF CONFIDENCE.

YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE WAY THAT SHE QUESTIONS PEOPLE.

WHEN SHE IS IN HER COMMITTEE WORK, YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE WAY SHE INTERACTS WITH PEOPLE, THAT STREK JSTRENGTH AND TOUGHNESS AS WELL AS COMPASSION.

>> SHE LOOKS LIKE SHE WILL BE THE EVERREADY BUNNY.

NONSTOP ACTIVE CAMPAIGNING.

>> OH, YES, I THINK A IS SO TRUE.

SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING QUITE INTERESTING RECENTLY ABOUT WOMEN RISING TO THIS LEVEL OF VICE PRESIDENT OR SENIOR LEADERS IN A PRIVATE SECTOR AS WELL, TALKING ABOUT THIS PHENOMENON OF THE GLASS CLIFF.

WHERE YOU PROMOTE WOMEN WHEN YOU ARE FRAYED THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO GO OFF THE RAILS AND THEN IF IT GOES OFF THE RAILS SHE GOES WITH IT.

AND THAT IS HONESTLY BEEN THE WAY WOMEN, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH SARAH PALIN AND TO A CERTAIN DEGREE WITH GERALDINE FERRARO, NAMED BY WALTER MONDALE.

I THINK SHE IS FACING A REL OPPORTUNITY.

>> ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU FOR YOUR POLITICAL EXPERTISE THROUGHOUT THIS CAMPAIGN.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

POLICE GO TO OUR WEB PAGE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRNS SCRIPT OR IT SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

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