Good evening, I'm John Craig.

Editor of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Who's Dwight Evans?

The Philadelphia representative would like you to know the answer to that question.

He thinks he'd like to be governor.

And he's been in Pittsburgh this week.

And he's going to be back again and again, he says.

Also what's going on at the Carnegie?

There's a new art show there that you might not have seen.

We'll look at these and othe stories tonight on the editors.

Tonight, John Craig and the editors of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazett discuss issues of local interest on the Editors.

With me on this segment, Jim O'Toole, who is the state editor of the Post-Gazette.

Jim, tell us a little bit about Dwight Evans and what and introduced him to us in the audience.

Okay.

Representative Evans is chairman of the Appropriations Committee in Harrisburg.

And that's, of course, one of the key.

He's one of the key decision makers in figuring out how our tax dollars are spent in Harrisburg and how much we're taxed.

He got a baptism of fire in that post three years ago.

In the big tax increase, the Casey administration was ushered in and the first year of hi of Governor Casey's second term.

And, now he's exploring the idea of another leadership post, the one that Governor Casey holds now.

And that's why he's getting around the state and talking to a lot of people.

You figure if he can get away with raising taxes three years ago, you can still get away with being governor.

No, I wish he was there.

No, I think it's a question of leadership.

I think it's a question of making government perform.

And I think it's a question o making government work harder.

What I've tried to do since I've been chairman for the last three years is what you would define the term reinvent government.

Find a different way to make sure a government performs.

I don't think we've done all we can do.

And I think we need to do som different things in the future.

Why don't you tell the people that you know they're watching this?

It's no reflection on you.

But this is on the other side of the Alleghenies, you know?

And, they.

How long you've been legislator?

Ive been legislate 13 years.

I'm a graduate of La Salle University.

I've been very active in issues of education, economic development, health care.

So in Philadelphia, Philadelphia and Philadelphia and all my life, 38 years of my life, I've lived in Philly, 38, 38 years.

I've lived in Philadelphi all my life.

Mother and father, have always worked, father just retire from a Quaker storage company.

He was a mover, moved up, worked his way through the ranks.

Mother started out as a waitress.

Thinking for other people.

You got brothers and sisters?

Yeah.

I have, one sister and three other brothers.

And you're not a lawyer?

I'm not a lawyer.

No, I'm definitely not a lawyer.

Formerly was a school teacher, worked with young people, in elementary school, taught English.

I worked with that for a year and went on to, place people in jobs.

Which part of Philadelphia, Westview lane Westview lane.

which is the north west part.

Yeah.

North Philadelphia, north northwest.

I was born in North Philadelphia, and I moved to West Oakland.

Grew up in that particular section.

That is the section I now represent.

And you said you've been the legislature for 13 years.

13 years.

Correct.

So you if you're 38, you whether you went there at 25, that's bee that's been your working life.

Pretty much of that.

Very much so has been I decided a long time ago I wanted to be me where public policy was made.

And I've had that opportunity, and the people in my district have allowed me to, serve, despite their particular time in office right there.

That you said you want to pursue what's what's what's, Representative Evans done as the Appropriations Committee chairman that you think is.

Well, I think that the, it's if you understand how the legislature works up there, that is, one of the key positions, majority leader and speaker, both, our jobs, both held by Western Pennsylvanians now.

But, Philadelphians get all the money, as, we've seen in the past know it.

When Representative Evans came into the job, it was a very difficult budget year.

There was a, hangove deficit from the previous year.

He was facing a big deficit, and, they had to work, through a long summer in crafting a new budget.

And I think it's fair to sa that Representative Evans was, earned a reputation for, reall taking command of the committee, being one of the most knowledgeable peopl in the chamber on budget issues.

Whether that translates, ho that translates into statewide politics is quite another question.

And, one of the one, factor that you can't ignore in talking about Representative Evans running statewide is, you have a very obvious, demographic handicap.

And by that I mean you're from Philadelphia.

Philadelphians have not run, well statewide.

What makes you think that you can overcome that?

Well, I don't think the issues about, where you're from.

I think the issue is about how you can make government perform and work harder.

There are a lot of things that need to take place in the state governmen as we move towards the future.

I think people are concerned about issues of education, economic development, health care.

I think that that's where the issue is.

Not so much where you live where you where we hope to live.

I think that what I've tried to do in 13 years is build coalitions very close relationships with the speaker of the House, who's from Greene County, as well as the majority leader who's right here from Pittsburgh.

I've been there, and we have formed the coalition to try to do things for people in government that make a difference in thei lives and not, again, focus on what I call who's in, who's out, who's up or who's down.

I think that too many times people in the press focus on those kinds of issues, rather than focus on the rea things about making a difference and making the state work something else that is kind of a caricature issue, but can't be ignored is race.

Your friend James Carville has said that Pennsylvania is a state with two big cities, with Alabama in the middle.

I think it's his line is, realistically, is, race a handicap for you in running a statewide Well, I think the only issue is an issue of performance.

And qualifications.

If you have the ability, if you play by the rules, I believe I've played by the rules.

Have a family that mothe and father have always worked.

That's what they always train me to do work, do your job, focus on the issues, perform if you qualify.

That' that's what it should be about, shouldn't be about anything else but that this state, in my view, requires someone who has the ability to bring people together and focus on issues.

In the previous election when George Bush was criticizing Bill Clinton about calling him the environmental, whatever the bottom line is, he said the most important thing was the economy.

Well, in my view, in this state, the most important thing is generating jobs, makin sure our children are educated and functioning, making sure government works.

What kind of what kind of shape you think Pennsylvania is in?

Well, I think I think Pennsylvania is is is at a crossroad.

Certainly there's some different kinds of decisions that we have to make in the future.

We have to talk about education equity.

We have to talk about our tax structure.

We talked about our health care system.

We have to reform welfare.

We have to change the way systems have been operating.

If we don't change the way systems operating the way our revenue base versus our expense base is that there's not enough money to keep up with the way expenses are.

And if we don't make some fundamental changes in the way we've been operating, there's no way we'll be able to keep those changes first.

You mentioned education first, which I assume you think that i probably as high a priority is.

There is.

Oh, no question.

Every ethnic group that has ever come to the shores have always said that the key to success is a good, solid education.

That means job training.

That means vocational ed.

That means retraining our workforce for the future jobs that are available first.

Secondly, I also mentione the idea of changing in welfare.

We no longer can have a welfare system that is not functioning and not working where people who get on welfare feel like that is a permanent aspect to their lives, rathe than a temporary aspect of it.

And we sticky before we leave education.

Do you think that the one of the problems in education is that there's not enough money for education?

No, I don't think that that is the issue.

I think the issue is a question of how effectivel you use the money that we have.

We have a budget of $15 billion.

We spend $5 billion or $15 billion in basic education.

We have the state, that's the state.

And now and then the districts themselves, in terms of property taxes, when you begin to add but the state contributes $5 billion, right, too.

So what's the state going to do, though, to make, make, say the, Pittsburgh School District or the North Hills School District, more effective?

Well, I think we got to look at an experiment.

I think we got to look at school based management.

I think we got to look at public school choice.

I think we got to look at those thing that empower teachers, parents, administrators to do things different than they have done in the past.

I don't think we can continue to operate, typically as we have operated in the more immediately and more directly under your influences, as chairman is how we distribute money.

Correct.

And, of course you've got the big club hanging over you of a suit by a rural and small school districts that would demand a more, in some people's views, a more equitable distribution of that money is the legislature going to be able to act, to preempt court action, or are you just going to wait and, have the courts force you to, make those kind of fundamental, representative cow who's right here from Pittsburgh, who's chairman of the education Committee.

And I have been working very closely.

We believe we should act and not have the court.

We should not have public policy driven by the court system.

We have a responsibility as legislators.

We should do our responsibility and representative and I, have a plan and a directio called the three tier approach, which basically have been done in other states, which establishes on the first level a foundation to make sure that all school kids, we see the same amount education funding.

There are some school districts where you pay $10,000 a child to be educated, and some pay $3,000 a child.

That is inherently unfair.

This is an issue that is across the entire nation Kentucky, Texas, New Jersey.

20 other states have faces very same issue.

There are 180 school districts that are part of that lawsuit that are suing the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

We need to take action.

We need not to sit around and wait for the court to make the decision.

Leaders like you have an idea of how you should proceed, but can you get a majority of your 203, 202 colleagues to go along?

Well, we're going to work at it.

I mean, part of the reason I'm out here in Pittsburgh today, or during this week to talk to people is basically the the go to the education process.

The first thing you must educate people, you first must begin to try to move people to a point, to get them to understand the nature of the concerns and the issues that we have today.

And then talk about the solutions.

But let me just process a bit, though, you know, I understand the argument that is to it.

Say that say that the the somebody in Crawford County gets $3,000 per pupil for the state, and somebody in Pittsburg or Philadelphia gets $7000 year.

And the reason is because in Crawford County, they're getting the basic amount correct.

And then they in these other places, they hav all sorts of add ons.

Correct.

And and you can hav this mal distribution between, a lot of districts all over the state.

But, but, but the mal distribution is also a product of a fairly intelligent conclusions that is that in certain areas, the problems to be dealt with are not the same as they are in Crawford County.

That is the educational problems.

You need more money for, for feeding children in the morning because they don't have have a breakfast or you need more money for special education.

You need more money for this.

So if you're going to just raise the basic amount of money in Crawford County so it gets higher, which is what they want is more mone on some constitutional grounds, you're still just aren't you just going to end up just paying out more money because Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are never going to they're always going to be getting more money for the state of Pennsylvani in Crawford County, aren't they?

Per pupil?

No, no.

I think what you're basicall going to try to do is to ensure that those childre that may be in Crawford County have some of the same basic choices that children in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have.

They won't have to be making decisions between, not having a biolog lab versus having a biology lab, not having textbooks versus having textbooks.

Those are fundamental decisions that every child in this Commonwealth should have available to them.

If we're talking about making Pennsylvania competitiv for the future in the year 2000, clearly education is the key to position our children.

And the question always boils down to is we should not be punishin children by where they live at.

The reality of i is, is that we should make sure every child in Pennsylvania has the same opportunity available to them.

All right.

But just last point.

This is going to cost more money.

Well, not necessarily, not necessarily.

I don't believe that that necessarily has to cost more money.

I think that' what everybody wants to look at.

I don't think you could talk about money.

If you don't talk about accountability and you don't talk about performance, they go hand in hand.

Accountability and Performanc goes hand in hand with funding.

You can't talk about increasing the amount of money education if you don't deal with the dropout rate, if you don't deal with school violence, if you don't dea with making sure that teachers are functioning the way that they should function, those things go hand in hand.

You can't just separate.

Another issue that's operatin on a couple of different levels at the same time is, health care cost reform.

Governor Casey and some of you in the legislature have worked on it's going on at the federal level as well, which we've been reading a lot about.

Is that something that the state on its own is going to be able to make progress on, or does it make sense for you just to wai and see what comes out of what?

I think there are some things that we can do.

I think that basically what Washington can do is set a framewor in terms of how we can operate.

I think federal governmen can move out of the way, provide certain waivers.

I think we can move in the direction of managed care for people on medical assistance.

If you look at the Oregon example, that may you agree or disagree with that?

That is one example of a debate around health care.

Clearly, Pennsylvania needs to have the ability to have its hands free so it can experiment.

So it can look at what' the best way to do health care.

Let me understand something.

The majority of Pennsylvanians don't have health care.

It is about 2 million people that do not have health care.

For example, when they when the governor's welfare dependency task force did focus groups with people who are on public assistance, the number one reason for why people on public assistance is the question of health care.

I mean, they don't hav health care, provided to them.

So the question really boil down to is health care affects not just those on public assistance, but those who are working it.

It affects state government.

It is the second largest costs in our budget behind corrections.

Medical assistance is right behind correction in terms of its increased costs, and we have to get some way to slow the rate of increase down in terms of health care.

The we've go a couple of minutes left here.

Do you think that the, Governor Casey's provided a good model for you?

I mean, this is he does.

And his job the way you think it ought to be handled.

I think under the circumstances, he has don the best that he is able to do.

I think now we need to move in a different direction.

I believe that needs to be muc more aggressive in the future.

Need need to be willing to stake your political future on some things.

Be stakeholders.

When I say that I'm talking about education equity, I'm talking about welfare reform.

I'm talking about tax reform.

And you got to kind of got to get in there.

You gotta get a little bruised up because of some tough issues, some tough choices.

In the future.

The Pennsylvanians know tha we have to make in the future.

And you got to give up a little bit of yourself in order to make those things like that.

What you got to do is given up a little bit of yourself for the next year or so.

We'll probably see here.

Again, no question about that.

I want to thank you very much.

Thank you.

See you again, Jim.

Thank you too.

There's more to come on The Editors Good evening.

I'm Donald Miller the art and architecture critic for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

And we're talking with Richar Armstrong, who is the director, who is the curator of contemporary ar at the Carnegie Museum of Art.

Mr.

Armstrong, joined the staff last October and has made a tremendous impression on Pittsburghers who watch the art scene because he has, reinstalled, the permanent collectio in the, Hall of Sculpture has, mounted three exhibitions in the Forum Gallery on the first floor of the of the Scaife Gallery and, recently installed, Pittsburgh collects some 265 objects.

Welcome to The Editors, Richard.

Thank you.

How do you see the world o contemporary art at the moment?

I'll give you a big question that start with, well, it's a fractured world which I think probably reflects, social and intellectual conditions, but it's a lively one, as always.

And, New generations o artists are coming to the fore, and there are many ways that they're attracting attention.

So it continues to be an active, and engaging situation.

You're just back from recentl from two weeks in Europe, doing planning for the next Carnegie International.

Did you have a chance to see anything on that trip?

Well, I, I saw quite a lot.

I was in Germany for a week and, in Vienna, and, also in Switzerland.

So I went to a number of exhibitions and studios and galleries.

Do you have any feeling for what's going on in terms of what we've since what we've seen at the last Carnegie International?

Well, I think there's probably a return in certain ways to, less of a conceptual based art form and perhaps a greater interest in certain kinds of classical techniques and studies.

I see.

that will be reflected in the next international.

Of course, it might be Its a little early to say when you're planning it for?

It happens in November 1995.

1995.

Right.

That's the 100t anniversary of the exhibition.

And then you're planning another one for the following year.

The next year, there'll be a centenary exhibition that recapitulates things that have happene in the previous hundred years.

How do you, get a general publi interested in contemporary art?

Well, one easy way is to scandalize them, and that seems to happen on a fairly regular basis.

Then I think there's always a, constituency of people who are interested in information and different kinds of visual stimuli and, given access to institutions like the Carnegie, they're willing to come an look at things very carefully.

I find sometimes walking into a gallery cold without any information provided, that it's tough.

I just wrote about that recently, and I'm sure you must feel somewhat the same.

Well I don't feel exactly that way.

I think the gallery, the part of my job is to make it more accessible to people by presenting that information, which in itself might be very difficul in a way that they find legible.

And how do you do that?

Well, through a variety of factors.

But one way is to, utilize the spac that's given in the exhibition so that people feel physically comfortable and stimulate to move through the information just as they would in reading a page.

You brought some slides and why don't we take a look at.

All right, good.

This is, just a, representation of this 24ft long painting evolution by the young artist Alexis Rockman.

That was in the Forum Gallery during December and January.

And it was an easy way to bring natural history.

That was the first artist you brought in?

Then, this is a big 38ft long bronze and corten table that we've now positioned in the Foyer of the museum.

You're seeing differen views of it as it was presented in New York at the Museum of Modern Art, and that will be on loan for one year.

Modernism Modernism.

A major artist who was shown a few years ago at the Three Rivers Arts Festival right in the PPG place.

And, a view of one of the things that we've acquired since I've been there, Door to Door by Richard Arch Trotter, which will be seen beginning next month in the, permanent collection Galleries a new painting by Neil Jenney, which we purchased in November.

A ten foo wide representational picture.

What do you, how do you view the local art scene?

One of your job is to look at local art.

Right.

I'm going to know a little better, and I can see that they're the same kinds of levels of achievement and interest that there would.

There are all over the world.

And I'll be judging the AAP show this year.

So I think I'll get to know a number of people better that way.

And you came here from the Whitney Museum o American Art in New York City, and, you have a chance.

And you were involve for several years with curating the and the biennial show of contemporary art there.

And, have you seen this year's show at the Whitney?

No, I've driven by a couple of times, but I haven't gotten up the courage to go inside yet.

You really.

I said to me in the past that you really want to be in Pittsburgh.

And, you know, to be a part of this.

Oh, absolutely.

And you feel really important, too.

It's really important t reach out to the, local artists.

Oh, I agree, I think that's the first group of people that a contemporary art museum serves, living artists.

But, I'm also De keen on getting to know the city extremely well and utilizing all the things that are here.

Moving over to the museum for an instance, how do you rate the Carnegi Museum of Art and pecking order in the country?

It's, definitely in the major leagues and, has a great facility, tremendous support, a very good collection.

And, I think as the momentum builds, will become a place that attracts worldwide attention, certainly after the Warhol Museum opens next year and the Heinz Architecture Center opens this year, a different and wider spectrum of people will probably begin attending the museum.

Are there any exhibitions that you're planning in addition to the Carnegie?

No, that's still it's still in the formulaic stage.

We don't know yet when you have more shows coming up.

Oh, certainly you have the one now, after the wall, right?

There's a show just of young Berlin artist, and then in June or July, there'll be work by Doug Cooper, a local artist who, as you probably know, makes drawings from different vantage points in the city.

Yes.

And involves people who are not artists right in the neighborhoods and recollections of their where they live.

How do you feel about living in Pittsburgh?

I mean, what's your reaction?

You've been here, since October and you've had a feeling you've now had, I know you said you'd like to drive through the various neighborhoods.

I've.

I've had a very good feeling that the weather is a little daunting, but, I want to get out.

Do you see any difference?

Do you see any difference between Pittsburg and anywhere else you've lived?

In terms of the people?

Well, I think the people here tend to be a little friendlier than certain other cities.

And they're, I think also very proud of where it is they've come from.

And they know different kinds o folkloric aspects of the city.

It's not typically a city of people who've come from elsewhere.

I think, thank you very much for doing this.

I would just like to mention, for those who, don't know about it, former curator, John Caldwell, service for him will be held on Tuesday at 4:3 at the Carnegie Museum of Art.

And now there's more to come on the Editors.

Now, I'm going to introduce you to Tom Hritz, who's going to give you a final word for this week.

There's always some sort of movement on to make English the official language of the United States, essentially, young for doing just that.

But I don't think it will ever happen.

But I can see why some people would be against it In some cases, English.

just doesn't make any sense.

Like when you buy a new pair of pants.

I know it sounds a little crazy, but I really do wonder why me or anybody else buys a new pair of pants.

That garment you wear in the lower part of your body is a single thing.

It isn't a pair of anything, but I can't even say pants as a single thing.

I have to say, pants are a single thing.

I mean, if I said these pants is the most comfortable pants I ever wore, you'd probably suspec I hadn't finished second grade.

Now I'm okay with a new pair of shoes, a new pair of socks, or a new pair of gloves.

Each of these things are sets of things, so maybe you're thinking it's because a pair of pants has two pant legs.

Well, that's fine too.

But why don't I buy a new pair of shirts?

A shirt has two sleeves or a new pair of coats.

Same difference.

The Romans, who are sai to have spoken the most precise language in the world, never had problems like this.

Of course, the Romans wore togas, not pants.

That's it for this week.

Thank you very much.

And good night.