- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," in an era defined by rapid advancements in technology, journalism remains a cornerstone of democracy and an essential tool for amplifying diverse voices.

But what happens when the media we consume is the media we question?

Join us as we examine the influence of technology and AI on the media industry.

How algorithms amplify narratives, the ethical dilemma they pose, and their impact on the trustworthiness of journalists.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Kenia Thompson.

Well, as technology evolves, so do the challenges.

From AI-powered algorithms shaping the narratives we see to the rise of misinformation, the question remains, how do we preserve the trust and integrity of the media we consume day to day?

- To talk about the evolving role of journalism and the influence of technology, it's time to bring our expert guests on who both bring academic and industry perspectives to the table.

Our first guest is Dr. Lindsay Owens.

She is an associate professor of communication at Meredith College.

Dr. Owens is a distinguished educator and researcher, deeply invested in the intersections of media, culture, and communication.

And joining her is Leoneda Inge, co-host of "Due South" on WUNC.

Leoneda is known for her thought-provoking storytelling and deep connection to community narratives.

Welcome both to the show.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Of course.

You know, there's so much, I think especially today with media driving what we know.

You know, we've got social media.

TikTok has been in the news.

How have we seen, and I'll open this to you first, Dr. Owens, how have we seen news and journalism evolve over the years?

- Sure, well, let me start by saying in terms of AI, we're seeing a lot more of it.

I think to be blunt, it's something that freaks people out.

- [Kenia] Yep.

- If you think back, I think you've probably only heard of ChatGPT, what, like a few years ago.

- [Kenia] Yeah, if that.

- Right, and it can do students homework for them.

And now we're seeing more images like on social media, pictures, video that looks really real, and then you find out that it's generated by AI.

So I can understand the skepticism or the anxiety about it a little bit.

And because this technology has evolved so quickly and surveys of journalists found that a majority of them are pretty apprehensive about integrating AI into the newsroom.

But I think AI really can be used as a tool.

It's a pretty powerful technology.

And if used the right way, I think we're really gonna see it integrated into a lot of newsrooms very soon, yeah.

- Leoneda, from kind of a more traditional journalist perspective, radio, how have we seen the evolution of radio come about and the impact technology has had on radio?

- Well, one thing I love about radio is that it's ever changing.

And I think about back in the day when I would go out into the trenches, you know, interview people, come back with all this tape, put it on a reel to reel, get out a razor blade, you know, mark it with a colored marked pencil.

And I literally can say I've edited tape from, you know, a razor blade with my hands to definitely, what I use, Adobe Audition today all the time, but for some reason, maybe I'm just old school, I'm trying not to be afraid of AI at all.

And some very cool people at work, I guess kind of playing games, they slacked.

You know how you can get several of your stories, the way you write, the way you speak, but mainly the way you write, and then they mashed it all together and put it in some new innovative AI format and then let it spit out what they would think I would say.

And I was like, that's not me.

I still have a job.

And I was like, that's awful.

I thought it was awful.

- Well, I think that's such a good point.

I think that AI really should be a tool.

It should help a journalist, but it can't replace a journalist.

- That was gonna be my next question.

You talked about integration.

What does that integration look like?

And then, is there a place for it?

And how do we supplement versus replace?

- Yeah, that's such a great question.

So I think right now AI can really do two things.

You can use AI to analyze, and I think that that is like a really good tool.

So I'm a former TV reporter and I'm assigned my story in the morning, and I really only had a few hours to get the interviews and the video, and write it and put it all together.

So the idea that I would have time to sit and analyze a bunch of data is laughable.

I would have never had that time.

So that's one thing that AI can help as a tool.

You could, for example, say, analyze 10 years worth of city budgets, try to find patterns.

Oh, maybe this type of program has been losing funding.

I think that type of analysis that journalists don't really have time for can really be helpful in generating story ideas, or AI to look at all the comments people are making on social media in your community to see what are people talking about.

So I think in that way, AI can be a great tool for journalists to use.

The problem is when AI generates content and you don't have a human in the loop.

There's a great example, like a few weeks ago, if you have an Apple iPhone, you'll see Apple Intelligence is a new thing you can download to your phone, and it's Apple's AI tool.

And what it will do is, it will look at legit news sources and it will find the articles and summarize those articles into just like a blurb or a headline.

So a few weeks ago, BBC News did a story about Luigi Mangione, the accused shooter of the UNC Healthcare CEO, and AI, Apple's AI looked at it and came up with the headline, "Luigi Mangione shoots himself," which we all know didn't happen.

It just got it wrong, and it attributed it to BBC News and they were furious.

And so, that's why I think proof that when it comes to generation, a human has to be integrated in the pro, and they have to be in the loop somehow.

- Yeah, I'm not that fond of consuming too much news from sources that I've never heard of before.

In a way I feel maybe I've been around a long time, but I'm still subscribing to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, definitely the New York Times, and sometimes even the Atlantic, just sources that I trust.

So I'm gonna, maybe if they wanna put everything on the line by bringing in content that maybe is a little suspect and they put their name on it, then I'm usually gonna attribute it back to them.

And I think, that's what you said, the BBC does not want that.

- When we look at, historically, minority voices in media, there's always been a challenge, right?

But people are drawn to obviously what looks like us, what feels like us.

And in the media, I think, let's just talk about Black communities, Black journalists, depending on the source, there's question there.

How have Black journalists as a whole been viewed in the media, and what are some of the challenges that they face?

Lenny, I'll start with you.

- [Leoneda Inge] Well, it has not been easy, but I've tried to make it as rewarding- - [Kenia] Yeah.

- As possible.

When I think when I was a young journalist, very young, in my twenties in Michigan, for example, I was in Benton Harbor, St. Joseph, Michigan and then I was in Grand Rapids, Michigan, there were some people I could ask a question, they just wouldn't even talk to me.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- They wouldn't even respect that I was in the room.

I would ask them over and over and say, "Excuse me, Mr. so and so," and they would just keep walking.

It wasn't even that "I don't have time for you."

And so, I had to grow a pretty thick skin.

So, now, sometimes, that sort of still happens.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- But I'll say, "Oh, if there's someone that can answer this question better, could you tell me who that is, so I can go to them because I have a deadline?"

I just like switch it on them a little bit.

- Yeah.

- But we need diverse voices, because every day, I have producers that work with me on the show.

And sometimes, people with different backgrounds, we totally hear things in a different format or we miss it.

I was like, "Did you hear what they said?"

And they're like, "Oh no, they just said they were going to the store."

I said, "No, they said after they robbed a bank, they were going to the store."

It's just something we listen to culture differently, we present differently.

And really, I just like to have, as a journalist of color, to have respect, much respect for even the voices of color that I'm bringing into my reporting.

And sometimes, if they're not as savvy, [Leoneda Inge giggles] or haven't been around as much, maybe they didn't answer your question as clear, I say, "Just go ask them one more time, go ask them again."

And so, patients and we need as many people out there, just in the trenches to really combat some artificial intelligence that may come about.

And the only way to combat that, is with first-person connections and truth.

So, that's the only way to win.

So, no, I drove a couple of hundred miles to go talk to that farmer who lost everything.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- It wasn't just a picture from a drone up above.

And I'm still trying to do that.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Yeah and actually, that's such a great point.

One thing about AI is it is it's not human, right?

There's no emotion, it can't detect bias.

It can't detect a lot of those things that you're talking about, so.

- And storytelling, right?

I mean, I'm a huge storyteller.

That's what drives me to do the work that I do.

If there were no stories and no people behind the news that we bring, I don't know that I'd wanna do it, right?

And so, when you integrate AI, is the story lost?

- I think there has to be a distinction between, so, for example, the Associated Press right now, the only AI-generated content they're using, is to do sports stories.

Because I guess when you're just doing sports statistics or whatever, you don't necessarily maybe need all the emotion.

And they're also using it to transcribe video as well.

- [Kenia] Uh-huh.

- But that's kind of where it stops for them in terms of AI generation.

But yes, the storytelling, the emotions, people want different things out of their news when they get it.

But I think that element of wanting to connect with other humans and hearing human stories is one reason that I love to consume media.

And I really feel that that's something that AI certainly, at this point, can't replicate.

- Hmm.

- I have hope though that it will become definitely something that ethics will be ingrained.

But can you remember?

I remember again when we didn't have the internet.

- [Dr. Lynn C. Owens] Oh, yeah, I remember.

- When now we Google or search, do all sorts of searches and we know how to do the types of searches to bring us the most accurate information, we didn't think we could do that at our fingertips.

- Right.

- Times will change.

- Yeah.

- We just hope that they change for the better.

- Yeah.

- I'm assuming all three of us have some level of journalism or broadcast degree, right?

Today though, we have people who are using social media platforms that do not have a journalistic lens necessarily.

They may know how to tell a story, but they didn't necessarily go through the understanding of how ethical our responsibility is to tell an accurate story.

I'd love to hear your perspective on the, what I am calling the loss of integrity in media and journalism as a result of everyone having access to tell a story.

- Yeah, I think the key is for, you know, these legitimate news outlets and journalists who have that training to really be transparent in every part of the process, unlike, you know, Joe Schmoe's blog, right?

Or video writing, whatever.

If you can show that I've put the work in, you know, this, attribute your facts, you know, attribute your sources to just show that you're being very transparent about where you're getting this info.

And I think that that's one thing that can distinguish you from just somebody, you know, blabbing, saying that they know something.

- Well, I've always been told in journalism school that, you know, the difference in being a journalist and someone who just distributes information is you've been vetted and edited.

So if there's no editor, you know, if there's no one else, you know, reading your work or, you know, putting their name on it as well, then it's not, it's not journalism.

And actually, you shouldn't take it as that.

It's, I guess it's pure entertainment.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- And that's what I have to believe, that it must be entertainment.

Now, do the folks in the world who are on their phones and such who read everything that dings, are they differentiating that question?

I know they should, but I don't think they are.

- Yeah, well, as journalists, as people, we have internal biases that cause our perspectives to be skewed.

And so if you think about the journalistic integrity of telling an accurate story, you have to be aware of the fact, simple fact that as a human person that's leaning towards being Haitian and being female and being a mom, I'm gonna have perspectives that are somewhat biased.

But it's that self-check, right, of asking myself, "Am I telling the full story?"

And I don't know if that's happening.

- Yeah, it's part of the job, yeah.

Although you are absolutely, you know, you're human with your own feelings outside of work, but even recently we saw a journalist in the Midwest, she got fired for, on her personal social media page, criticizing Elon Musk.

I don't know if you saw that, and his hand gesture.

And so she put it on her personal page probably thinking, you know, "This is my opinion on this" But the station let her go because of it.

And it's just a reminder, and I tell my students too, when you're in this role and appearing, you know, unbiased, like you're, as you should, you really have to, even on that personal side, you know, always kind of maintain that level of not being biased.

- I know, and even when I was, you know, just starting out, I remember professors and others that say, "Well, Anita" You know, I attended a historically black college, you know, very entrenched, my parents, in the civil rights movement, just based on the year I was born.

And so I always knew that I couldn't join the NAACP, you know, I couldn't join the National Urban League, just different organizations I could not be a part of.

But that didn't mean I could, I wanted to be able to cover them legitimately and to make sure there was, like you say, no obvious bias, but I will tell you one bias, when I wanted to take my two sons to President Barack Obama's inauguration.

The only way I could figure that out and to get into town was to spend some money and ride that NAACP bus into Washington, D.C. from Raleigh-Durham, and I definitely did.

And I actually documented it and recorded it and said, how, you know, how we got there, because no cars could get into the District, right?

- That's transparency, right?

- Transparency.

- Yeah.

- So I won't become a member, a full-fledged member of the NAACP as long as I'm a working journalist.

But like I say, I was getting on that bus.

[panelists laughing] And we made it in very cold weather.

I think that was colder than now.

[laughs] - That's cold, yeah.

- That inauguration.

- Well, you know, recently we saw a TikTok ban.

It was a huge thing.

I will admit, I was a little sad when it happened.

I was like, "Where's TikTok," because I just, I love it.

I love the diversity of information that comes to me through that platform.

But, you know, we've heard a lotta conversation around censorship, and many people are asking, "Well, where's the freedom of speech?"

And where does censorship, where does that blur lines?

And I'd love to hear your thoughts on a society that, you know, boasts on the freedom of speech, but yet we are seeing censorship happening in these platforms.

- It's such a hard question.

- I know, I'm sorry.

- It's such a hard question, because somebody has to make those decisions, right?

Like, what is acceptable, what's not?

And I think that's just, it's such like, so gray, right?

I don't know.

What do you think?

[laughs] - I don't, I don't know.

As a long-time journalist, first of all, I've always assumed somebody was watching me, first.

I mean, every email I send, I'm assuming somebody else is reading it, of course.

But that's, you know, everyday people may not think that way and could be very vulnerable.

So, I may not be the person to ask because it's like, I know we're being watched and I know what I post can be criticized.

And I know if it's the wrong thing and it shows too much bias, I could be in trouble.

But yes, and who wants censorship?

No, we want free speech in all realms.

And I love watching comedy skits on TikTok.

Do you hear me?

[panelists laughing] It helps me get through the night, you know.

I don't look at it probably during the day, but at night I'm like, that's a platform for that.

- Yeah.

- Right, well, some users of TikTok in particular were claiming, there's no real statistics behind this, so don't quote me on this, but just from what I was watching, what my feed was showing me that people were starting to recognize after it came back, the algorithm seemed to change a little bit.

Their feed was showing them more of what was currently going on with the inauguration.

They noticed that if certain keywords or terms were said, related to a certain person, that they'd get flagged.

And so the, now this could be a conspiracy that folks are just trying to trump up and not, no play on words there, but trump up some accusations that their thoughts were being controlled.

- Mm.

- And so I think that's the fear that people are alluding to.

- But if all these platforms were shut down today- - Yeah.

- And say let's start from scratch, do you not think the same thing would happen?

We're at that point, I think.

Technology is so fluid and accessible.

We know people in different parts of the world can integrate our Facebook.

And remember during Hillary Clinton's run for president, you know, all sorts of things were going out about her that were just, we know now we're almost being planted.

And, can you make bad do good?

I don't know.

But I think dissolving everything that's here as though it will get better.

- [Panelist] Mm-hmm.

- I don't think that'll work.

That means we need to be stronger, all our technology gurus, if they think this is happening and see that it's bad, then maybe we need something to clean things up.

- And there's not a lot of transparency in how those algorithms are, what they're, you know, basing it on.

I'm sure all of us have Googled something, and then we see an ad just like it or a story.

- I know.

- It's very scary.

- They know what app that I looked at just- - Right.

Right.

But I mean, I have a relative who she works for Meta, and she doesn't even know.

I mean, she really doesn't even know.

So it's, it's interesting.

- Let's just shut it all down then.

- Yeah.

- Just shut it off.

- Well, and I think even when we look at false news or fake news, I think people, those who put it out there, my analysis is that they know that it probably won't be believed.

However, the impression, or the judgment of that person is now tainted.

- They've tickled the ear.

- Right.

- Right.

- As we say.

- Planted that little seed that may or may not grow.

- Little seed of doubt.

- Yeah.

- And that's really all that we need.

I think as humans to just plant a seed of doubt to make us now see someone in a new light or a perspective.

- I think also to just try to 'cause it does, it seems so scary.

You can get down this like doom and gloom rabbit hole, but the good news that I'm seeing as a professor is that it seems like many of the college students these days are, are a lot more media literate than my generation.

And so I feel that they are automatically, because they're what we call digital natives, they've grown up, right?

Always with a smartphone and technology, that they're able to identify AI easier.

I think they're able to question sources, and they know, "Oh..." Even my 13-year-old had told me something, I said, "Well, that can't be true."

And she said, "No, look, 'Associated Press.'

And I was like, "Wow.

"She knows what a legitimate source is."

So I think that that's promising.

That gives me a little bit of hope.

But.

- Yeah.

Well, what can we do moving forward?

I mean, we know the evolution is only gonna continue to increase.

We're only gonna see more advancements in technology and AI.

What can consumers do to ensure that they're, they're getting the accurate information, and making decisions based off of as real of information as possible?

- Fact checking.

I support organizations that do that for a living.

Now, can we make everyday people even trust the fact checkers?

I don't know.

We can't change everything.

You can only, you know, put the food on the plate.

I actually feel we can't make people eat.

We can't make them understand.

And if something is more, sometimes obscure and crazy, I don't know why some would think that was true.

- Yeah.

- And, sometimes they don't even want to hear the other side too.

That's the other thing.

We can bring them legitimate vetted news, and it's just not sexy enough.

It's not cool enough.

It's not, it doesn't explode.

So we can only hope actually, you know, we can only educate the best way we know how, and hope that society, or our listeners and viewers give us the chance, and just think.

Sometimes you're like, the common sense algorithm, - Right.

- What about that?

- Yeah.

- You know, there should be something that calls for common sense.

- And I always tell my students, try to follow multiple news organizations.

- Right.

- Ones that are known to be right leaning, known to be left leaning, follow, you know, BBC, a foreign company that doesn't even have really- - [Guest 1] NPR.

- NPR.

Of course.

WUNC.

The spectrum, just so you know the information that's out there, and you can kind of get this selection.

So I always encourage, don't be in a silo and just follow one news source.

You know, follow them all.

I think that also helps you just be more educated with, and finding the truth.

And knowing just what people are are talking about.

And in terms of ai, we have got to, although it's not law yet or rule, it needs to be worked into the journalistic code of ethics that anything that's AI generated or assisted needs to be labeled.

And we are seeing that.

I mean, news organizations are taking it upon themselves to do that.

And you will see comments summarized by AI or generated by AI.

I think that labeling has to continue.

- Just about a minute left here, and I'm gonna pivot this to you, Lianita, but as a journalist, what are some three checkpoints that you would give, or two, to yourself, to say, hey, is this unbiased?

Is this accurate?

- I check multiple, multiple sources sometimes before I can even write a line.

I'll even call people in the building, other journalists that I know.

You know how they say, if it smells, it really does something, [all laughing] something is wrong with, if you can't believe it, if this feels that untrue, did really, my hometown of Tallahassee, Florida get 10 inches of snow, no, they didn't.

- [Dr. Owens] Right.

- No, they didn't, impossible, it can't happen.

Maybe two inches.

- Yeah.

- And actually I just have to, I do, I have to go back to just ask a friend.

I ask someone, especially if I'm a little bit nervous or even if I'm thinking twice.

And for young folks, I'm like, ask somebody who's in the business.

Somebody that you trust.

Your friends who you hang out with every day, I don't know if they're the best [all laughing] for everything that you believe, but-- - Good tips.

- Go a little bit higher.

- Thank you Lianita.

Dr. Owens, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- We appreciate your insights and being on the show today.

- Thank you.

- Of course.

And we thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ - [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.